TWF Swordsage help

[Hangwind]

I am going to be playing a level 15 Natural Weredog (Lycantrope template with dog as the animal) Swordsage soon. I want him to be a DEX-based two weapon fighter that also uses the natural Bite attack he gets. The problem? I have literally NEVER played a martial class before. I am looking for high levels of optimization, but my DM wants me to stick with Martial classes.

I was thinking some sort of Bloodclaw Master or Master of Nine, but I really don't know how to optimize this concept. Please help!

Thank you in advance! (Because I won't remember to thank you later:smalltongue:)

[JeminiZero]

Must you be a natural weredog? That sucks up 3 LA, and 1 animal HD. So your level 15 Swordsage will wind up with only 11 actual swordsage levels.

I am of the opinion that Swordsage works best on a flyby attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) chassis (NOT spring attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack), as spring attack only works with the standard attacks, while flyby attack works with any standard action including martial maneuvers). Basically fly past the enemy, initiate a standard strike when adjacent to him, and then move away to prevent full attack retaliation.

Otherwise Swordsages lack the BAB to be white raven uber-chargers or blood in the water crit-fishers. (They *CAN* do it, they just won't be as good as the Warblade, if you really want to make a TWF, consider switching to Warblade instead). The swordsage specialty schools (shadow hand and setting sun) are also mostly based on standard action strikes.

[Hangwind]

The houserule is if the Lycanthrope only has 1 HD it replaces the original Racial HD and is in turn replaced by your class HD. The LA buyoff is in place so I'm not too worried about that (especially since everyone is going to be playing some form of Were).

The Warblade might be an option too, but would it be dependent on non-TOB classes? If not, how would I build it?

[JeminiZero]

The LA buyoff is in place so I'm not too worried about that (especially since everyone is going to be playing some form of Were).
Ah, so everyone in this game MUST be a were?

The houserule is if the Lycanthrope only has 1 HD it replaces the original Racial HD and is in turn replaced by your class HD.
I would still pick some other animal that grants useful stuff like flight or pounce. See this guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0) for some ideas.

The Warblade might be an option too, but would it be dependent on non-TOB classes?
No more than a Swordsage. In D&D, magic is powerful. Martial classes can't do MANY things, like teleporting several hundred miles a pop, raising a fortress in the middle of a desert with a couple of spells, or even breathing underwater.

The above are mostly utility functions. If you are just looking at purely combat functions, martial classes still have weaknesses. Most of them lack flight (although swordsage can get an equivalent effect around level 15... about 10 levels late compared to a Wizard). Their sensory options are limited, so they have problems in darkness / against invisible creatures. (Diamond Mind provides Hearing the Air, but it only comes in quite late, and it takes up a precious stance, which can be used for far more powerful stuff like blood in the water or leading the charge).

Notably, they lack absolute protection against exotic effects like stunning, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain and mind control. (They have save boosting maneuvers, but if the exotic effect offers no save, then save boosts can't be used).

That's not to say you can't have these abilities: they just won't come from the martial class itself. You could for example take up the Raptoran race (which provides flight) and add the Necropolitan template which provides the undead type and blocks out most of the important exotic effects. It also qualifies you for lifesight which lets you spot invisible living creatures.

If not, how would I build it?
Read the Warblade handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968) for some ideas.

[Urpriest]

For Dex-based TWF, it's still good to have at least some Swordsage levels, for Shadow Blade at the very least. That said, since Bite isn't a Shadow Hand weapon you'll have to struggle to get meaningful damage on it.

[Thiyr]

Ah, so everyone in this game MUST be a were?

I would still pick some other animal that grants useful stuff like flight or pounce. See this guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0) for some ideas.

Strangely, those are only useful considerations if you're fighting in animal form or if you've got something that specifically lets you use those abilities in another form, which it doesn't seem like he's gonna be using (as he's leaning towards ToB PRCs), which is a point made by that very guide. With that in mind, dog is actually a solid choice. 1 HD, coupled with that houserule, means it has a minimal impact on his advancement, and it has solid stat boosts. You get track and alertness, neither of which are great but are at least something, and being small sized can be a boon overall I find. Overall it leads to about as good as you'll get for a low-impact animal for a SS, esp if you pick up shadow blade.

If you want to go the TWF route, I had good experiences as a weredog rogue/SS, taking advantage of shadow blade and craven, using cloak of deception for triggering sneak attack, sudden leap as a pseudo-pounce (esp coupled with either leaping dragon stance or leap of the heavens if you feel like wasting a feat on it, though I'd not suggest it personally). If you can reliably get flanking, getting extra attacks will always be a good idea, so tiger claw's boosts to that effect could be useful.

As far as those utility things mentioned, you've got at least got scent going for you as an alternate detection method, even if not great. Other than that, you're in about the same position as anyone is, in regards to utility stuff: you need to spend gold on it. If you think it'll be a major issue (like flight), drop a bit of money on it. And if all else fails, drop some combination of feat and item on getting yourself some delicious, delicious iron heart surge.

Granted, this isn't "high" optimization, but I usually take requests for that with a grain of salt, considering how much that varies when people (esp DMs) are talking about actual play. If this isn't quite high enough for you, my apologies.

edit: and on the subject of bites, shadow hands, and damage: at that level, a necklace of natural weapons with aptitude on it should be cheap enough to cover getting shadow blade to apply. Easy peasy, and fairly cheap if you're not planning to toss any other major enchants on there, plus it'll help even out other bonuses, like from that class-based weapon focus as a minor side-benefit.

[Darrin]

Warblade levels with Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade might work. Burns up three feats, but your IL should be high enough to get Assassin's Stance and something decent (Cloak of Deception is loads of fun). Grab Craven, Staggering Strike, TWF + Gloves of the Balanced Hand, Combat Reflexes from Warblade + Double Hit (Miniatures HB), load up on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw boosts, work towards Time Stands Still.

Swordsage may save you a feat or so, but then you have to take Adaptive Style. Bloodclaw Master + Shadow Blade only works with daggers or unarmed strikes (those are the only weapons on both lists). If you go that route, a pair of feycraft daggers (DMGII) will save you from having to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse, but damage may still be on the underwhelming side.

[Hangwind]

Hmm, I could get the daggers and the necklace, (we have an artificer in our group) anything else you can think of? Is there a way to get it all equalized or should I just see the bite as a back-up weapon?

[Rubik]

Pick up a mouthpick short sword, so you can use your Shadow Blade feat with it, then pick up Multiweapon Fighting so you can use that extra attack.

[JeminiZero]

For Dex-based TWF, it's still good to have at least some Swordsage levels, for Shadow Blade at the very least.
Unless of course, he decides to go with a build that specifically needs the stance slot for something else. Like say, a blood in the water crit fisher. :smallwink:

Strangely, those are only useful considerations if you're fighting in animal form or if you've got something that specifically lets you use those abilities in another form, which it doesn't seem like he's gonna be using (as he's leaning towards ToB PRCs), which is a point made by that very guide.
True...

Also, he MIGHT want to consider fighting in Animal Form. For example, going with Phynxkin nets pounce.

Start with a Dragonblood humanoid base creature (like Silverbrow human) with the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feat. As a Phynxkin is also a Dragonblood creature, his Phynxkin form arguably continues to benefit from these feats. This flight (like the Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b)) specifically deals double damage with any piercing weapon on a Dive Attack.

Go straight Warblade and adopt Leading the Charge stance. Get any two handed piercing Mouthpick weapon. On a Dive Attack, he can pounce for full attack with the Mouthpick + 2 claw attacks. Leading the Charge adds IL to each attack. Dive Attack doubles that bonus damage. So a level 15 Warblade can crank out 3 attacks from Mouthpick (4 if you include haste) + 2 claw attacks, each dealing +30 bonus damage. (Its a pity that Lycans do not qualify for the Rapid Strike feat series).

This does NOT include any sort of bonus damage from the standard power attack + shock trooper combo. I don't think he can apply Leap Attack for Dive Attacks, but Dive Attack should double any Power Attack bonus damage anyway, which more then compensates. He can now subtract from his AC and add that amount to his claws (since they are natural weapons), and double that amount to his Mouthpick weapon. Then Dive Attack doubles everything. So for -15 AC, he can add another +30 to each claw, and +60 to each mouthpick strike.

He could also do this in hybrid form. In which case he has to splash a level in Lion Spirit Totem barbarian to get pounce. Although this isn't really a 2WF build anymore... :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

Pick up a mouthpick short sword, so you can use your Shadow Blade feat with it, then pick up Multiweapon Fighting so you can use that extra attack.

You still need more limbs to get Multiweapon Fighting, not just more ways to wield weapons.

[Rubik]

You still need more limbs to get Multiweapon Fighting, not just more ways to wield weapons.1,000 gp for a pair of warforged grafts?

[Darrin]

1,000 gp for a pair of warforged grafts?

If you're talking about the Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron), it's not clear if those add additional arms or replace your existing arms. I would expect most DMs to rule that they replace or cover your existing arms. Mechanically, they give you a slam attack, but that doesn't count as an extra hand for the purposes of MWF.

The easiest way to pick up a third hand without LA is probably Dragon Tail + Prehensile Tail. See my TWF OffHandbook: Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034731&postcount=10) for more methods to get extra hands.

[Rubik]

If you're talking about the Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron), it's not clear if those add additional arms or replace your existing arms. I would expect most DMs to rule that they replace or cover your existing arms. Mechanically, they give you a slam attack, but that doesn't count as an extra hand for the purposes of MWF. Nowhere does it say that it replaces your arms, just that you gain two arms. And if you have arms and hands, you gain the use of those arms and hands for whatever purpose you'd normally have them for, since there are no restrictions on the actions you can take with them.


The easiest way to pick up a third hand without LA is probably Dragon Tail + Prehensile Tail. See my TWF OffHandbook: Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034731&postcount=10) for more methods to get extra hands.Prehensile Tail doesn't give you an extra hand. The mighty arms graft does.