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Varamil
2007-01-17, 11:03 PM
I personally hate multi-classing I really have no idea way but i just dislike it greatly is there disadvantages of staying 20 with one class or 5/6/9 with three.

For example I'll use my favorite classes
I love psions and I feel Multi-classing will make me lose power points would it be better to go psion something else or just stay how i enjoy a psion and stay with him to 20?

Karsh
2007-01-17, 11:47 PM
Multiclassing is typically viewed as superior because some combinations of abilities from various (Prestige) classes makes a stronger character. There are tons of abilities, but I'll leave that to other people.

As for your Psion, multiclassing with any kind of a full manifesting/casting class is typically a bad idea unless you're taking a Prestige Class that continues manifester/caster progression. For example, after 1st level a Sorcerer only gains familiar progression by continuing to take levels in Sorcerer. He could, however, take levels in, say, Loremaster and continue progressing in spells while also getting a bunch of useful abilities as well.

TheOOB
2007-01-18, 12:27 AM
First of all, multiclassing and PrCing are very different. When multiclassing you completely halt advancement in the abilities of one class to gain abilities of another. When PrCing you usually give up very little(if anything) and in return get many new abilities without missing out on your old important abilities. This is especially true for spellcasters.

Multiclassing, as in taking multiple base classes can be useful, assuming your not a primarly spellcaster. Most non-primarly spellcasting classes offer little incentive to stay in the class the whole twenty levels. This is due to (what I consider to be one of the systems greatest flaws) the fact that most classes get all of their relevent key abilities early in their career, and spend the rest of their 20 levels getting small improvements to their abilities that are not justified by the number of levels you put into getting them. Heck, most base classes don't even get a capstone ability (a powerful ability that justifies taking the class for the whole 20 levels rather then splashing it with another class).

So Multiclassing is worth it, you can usually gain more benefit by mixing the abilities of several classes then staying the same class, then by staying one class until level 20 unless your a spellcaster/psionic

As for PrCs, assuming you have access to books with good PrCs, there is no real reason not to take a Prestige class. You lose practically nothing, especially if your a spellcaster, and in return you gain meaningful abilities everylevel and a awesome capstone ability.

For example, compare a wizard 20 to a wizard 10/loremaster 10. The only prerequisite that a loremaster requires that a wizad wouldn't allready get is skill focus<knowledge>, and you also lose 10 levels of familiar advancement(not a big deal), and 2 feats (well 1, loremasters gain a bonus feat). In return loremaster gives you cool special abilities every level including save bonuses, spell slots, spell-like abilities, and so on. There is almost no reason not to PrC.

Dhavaer
2007-01-18, 12:38 AM
My current D&D character is a Barbarian 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2, with the monk alignment requirement houseruled away. She hasn't seen any combat yet, though.
Personally I prefer Modern, where multiclassing is necessary as there are no classes with more than 10 levels.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-18, 01:37 AM
Multiclassing can be nice if done properly.

For instance:

Dipping 2 levels of Fighter for BAB and feats is usually a good thing. Dipping 4 levels is less good, but still viable, and a way to get a 3/4 BAB class (like monk) up to +16 BAB for the final extra attack.

Dipping two levels of Monk makes sense for either a Wizard or a Sorcerer (assuming no alignment issues), provided you are allowed to take the feat which enables you to use the casting stat for your bonus, and your casting levels + monk levels for determining both continued monk ac bonuses and caster level. This gives you Evasion and +3 saves across the board, plus potentially an average of double hit points for two levels. Mind you, this is nearly the only time a caster should ever consider multiclassing out of a spellcasting class unless it is a prerequsite for a PrC (such as EK or Arcane Trickster).

Dipping a level or three into Sorc is not the worst decision a Rogue can make. Since he's probably already got a high Cha for his socials, he should be able to cast anything he realistically wants to get. A single level dip can get him True Strike. A five level dip can net him both Knock and Invisibility. Of course, if you go that far, you might as well hit 6th level then progress as Arcane Trickster.

Some classes are hurt more than others by multiclassing:

Monks get hurt bad by multiclassing. First off, if it isn't a PrC, they just screwed themselves out of any further monk levels. Second, their unarmed AC and damage bonuses are just too good to look elsewhere, unless it's to a monk PrC.

Barbarians are a good dip, but a poor one to go half way through. High end Barbarian toys like higher DR/-, Tireless Rage, Greater Rage, and more rage/day make a Barbarian more likely to continue being a barbarian rather than go elsewhere. A single level dip for Rage can be handy, though.

Sorc/Wiz/Cleric... they've all got the same problem. Going elsewhere means less spell levels which means less power. Nearly nothing you can dip for will ever net you the power of your next level of spells.

Fighter... why bother going for more than 4 levels here? This class was made for dipping to meet feat requirements, then leaving behind.

Rogue... While they can get hurt by multiclassing, it's not as much as you might think. Just make sure to keep your important skills up and you should be okay.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:12 AM
I am not a big fan of the Multi Classing concept. However, there are instances where it makes sense. The core of the problem is the Class system and Level progression and since you can't really fix those, you are left with making the best of a bad situation.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-18, 06:44 AM
Monks get hurt bad by multiclassing. First off, if it isn't a PrC, they just screwed themselves out of any further monk levels. Second, their unarmed AC and damage bonuses are just too good to look elsewhere, unless it's to a monk PrC.

I have to pick on this part, because it's wrong on so many levels. For a start, if a monk takes a level of a PrC, he can never again take levels of monk unless the class specifically states that he can.

Secondly, the unarmed strike damage is terrible, and the only good part about the AC is that it adds Wisdom; the extra +4 he gets for being nothing but a monk all his life isn't as good as what he can get for taking other classes.

Caelestion
2007-01-18, 09:55 AM
Well, sneak-attacking or inflict-casting monks are always nasty and they're fully entitled to wear bracers of armouring just like anyone else.

MetalKelt
2007-01-18, 10:25 AM
I have to pick on this part, because it's wrong on so many levels. For a start, if a monk takes a level of a PrC, he can never again take levels of monk unless the class specifically states that he can.

Secondly, the unarmed strike damage is terrible, and the only good part about the AC is that it adds Wisdom; the extra +4 he gets for being nothing but a monk all his life isn't as good as what he can get for taking other classes.

Unless you take one of the feats from CA, Rogue/Monk anyone?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-18, 01:28 PM
I have to pick on this part, because it's wrong on so many levels. For a start, if a monk takes a level of a PrC, he can never again take levels of monk unless the class specifically states that he can.

Secondly, the unarmed strike damage is terrible, and the only good part about the AC is that it adds Wisdom; the extra +4 he gets for being nothing but a monk all his life isn't as good as what he can get for taking other classes.

For a start, Prestige classes are not base classes, the rules are different. However, a monk would be hurting himself badly by going into anything other than a monk PrC, so the point is moot.

Secondly, I fail to see how 2d10 is terrible base damage, considering all the many and various ways to increase it further. Monk can be a nasty damage dealer if you build him right. As far as not being able to enchant a weapon, ever considered an Amulet of Mighty Fists?

As for armor, I'll take Wis+4 free to my AC. That's better than Mage Armor, anyways. Then I'll slap on Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor, and a Ring of Protection to jack my AC up over 40.

And let's not forget Evasion and Improved Evasion. Anything with a Reflex save I can pretty much ignore with my good saves.

They may be, perhaps, a bit underpowered, but by no means are they an inefficent damage dealer. They get a crapload of attacks, all of which can be used with Power Attack (which opens you up for Shock Trooper crack if you want to). Just give them a way to get an extra move action in a turn and still be able to make a full attack bonus (boots of speed, perhaps?) and they can dish out sick damage.

Indon
2007-01-18, 03:03 PM
Just to note, monk PrC's such as the Drunken Master specify that a monk can continue advancing as a monk after taking levels in the class. This seems to imply that a monk can NOT continue advancing if they take levels in a PrC that does not explicitly permit them to.

I won't comment on the power level of multiclass characters; that's what I own FF games for. I do, however, like multiclassing for the flavor it grants characters that it fits.

For instance, one character I'm playing in a campaign right now is kind of a roguish ranger-type, and while no doubt I could take some PrC or special class for him, I decided to make him a Rogue 4/Ranger 2/Scout 2 (well, at level 8 anyway). He's kind of a jack-of-all-trades and the only one that fits in in a lot of exotic situations in our campaign.

Plus, his sneak attack/skirmish Wand of Ray of Frost damage makes me giggle, but he didn't need to multiclass to do that.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-18, 03:15 PM
I love multi-classing I think its addition to the game is the greatest improvement over previous editions. That being said I think that it is best left to warrior types and skill monkeys because it really gimps casters unless you are going for a specific prestige class or build. I almost always take a dip into some class depending on what I am playing. I go for fighter for the feats, barbarian for fast movement and rage, rogue for evasion and sneak attack, and ranger for track and hated enemy. I think a 2 level dip is good for just about any class and can really help if you have a certain feel you are going for and a single class just can't cut it.

Telonius
2007-01-18, 04:54 PM
I personally hate multi-classing I really have no idea way but i just dislike it greatly is there disadvantages of staying 20 with one class or 5/6/9 with three.

For example I'll use my favorite classes
I love psions and I feel Multi-classing will make me lose power points would it be better to go psion something else or just stay how i enjoy a psion and stay with him to 20?

Well, there's not really anything wrong with staying a full 20 levels in any class. But for some classes, it's worth it to add a different class. The most obvious example of this is the Rogue. A level 20 Rogue is not much more powerful than a level 19 Rogue. You get 1 to your base attack bonus, 1 to your reflex save, a few more HP and some skill points, and that's it. But if you take a 19 Rogue / 1 Ranger, that character will be more powerful than a 20 Rogue. (Ranger isn't even the best class to take, but just for example). He'll have the same attack bonus, a higher reflex and fort save, a Favored Enemy, the Track feat, Wild Empathy, more hit points (d8 instead of d6), and free proficiency in all martial weapons and shields. The only downside is 2 fewer skill points. It's worth the trade.

Akennedy
2007-01-18, 04:59 PM
You could talk to your dm about some possible options/choices if you wanted to possibly even make a class, provided he'll let you...