View Full Version : Help juggling spellcasting and martial maneuvers.
Given my current build at Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2, is there a way to get to both level 9 spells and a level 8 martial stance by level 20?
The issue is not getting CL and IL high enough, which is easy, it is being able to actually get that level 8 stance whilst keeping the CL high enough.
The only builds I can work out that keep level 9 spells don't get access to level 8 maneuvers until level 19, at which point it doesn't appear possible to get a stance because it is too late to get a feat, and there is no level in an initiating class that would give a stance that can be taken there that won't lose me a precious caster level and deny me level 9 spells.
Is there a way to do this (without reliance on items) that I am missing here?
Piggy Knowles
2013-12-21, 09:12 AM
Short of bloodline abuse or ditching the cleric levels for an accelerated casting class, I don't know of any way to do this.
Dusk Eclipse
2013-12-21, 09:18 AM
How about chaos shuffling your level 18 feat into martial stance at level 19?
Yeah I think chaos shuffling would be crossing a cheese line for this campaign. Hmm. Thank you anyway.
Darrin
2013-12-21, 09:49 AM
Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion should be able to boost your IL high enough to grab a nice high-level Martial Stance at 18th level. Not all DMs will go for this, but it's much more mechanically straightforward than mucking around with that Bloodlines mess.
Piggy Knowles
2013-12-21, 09:52 AM
Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion should be able to boost your IL high enough to grab a nice high-level Martial Stance at 18th level. Not all DMs will go for this, but it's much more mechanically straightforward than mucking around with that Bloodlines mess.
That was my first thought when I saw this, too. I tried to put together a Legacy Trickster build that still hit 9th-level spells and got a stance at the correct time and couldn't pull it off without an accelerated casting class, unfortunately.
I'm probably being dumb here, but how does that help exactly?
Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster can't give me more Ruby Knight Vindicator progression past 10 levels right?
Piggy Knowles
2013-12-21, 10:23 AM
I'm probably being dumb here, but how does that help exactly?
Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster can't give me more Ruby Knight Vindicator progression past 10 levels right?
It helps because of the odd way that prestige classes interact with IL.
Let's say you have a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6, versus a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 2/Legacy Champion 4, progressing Ruby Knight Vindicator.
In the first case, your IL would be 1 from Crusader and 6 from Ruby Knight Vindicator. You'd also have four levels of non-initiating classes, giving you a total IL of 9.
In the second case, you'd have an IL of 1 from Crusader and an IL of 5 from Ruby Knight Vindicator (since Legacy Champion lets you effectively have three extra levels in it). But you also have EIGHT levels of non-initiating classes (four of Cleric, four of Legacy Champion). So, your IL in that case will be 10.
Basically, if you apply Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster to an initiating base, each level of "+1 of existing class abilities" results in an effective +1.5 to your IL. It's a nice way to rebuild IL quickly on builds that otherwise couldn't get that high - I like using it on top of factotum builds so you can have a Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10 that still gets 9th-level maneuvers.
Oh that is very nice to know! On the move so can't put the full build together right now, but I'm guessing the reason this isn't working is those 'dead' levels that don't advance the other class at all, and therefore lose spellcasting.
Piggy Knowles
2013-12-21, 10:38 AM
Oh that is very nice to know! On the move so can't put the full build together right now, but I'm guessing the reason this isn't working is those 'dead' levels that don't advance the other class at all, and therefore lose spellcasting.
Yeah, that's the kicker. You already are guaranteed to lose three levels: Crusader 1, RKV 1 and Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion 1. That means you can't progress RKV past level 5 without losing access to 9ths.
Darrin
2013-12-21, 10:59 AM
Ignore. Duplicate post.
Darrin
2013-12-21, 11:07 AM
Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster can't give me more Ruby Knight Vindicator progression past 10 levels right?
That's more or less a DM's Call. Some DMs allow Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster to advance PrCs beyond the 5 or 10 book levels, some don't. If this is allowed, then it depends on how your class features are worded. RKV gets +1 caster level for every level except 1st and 6th. You continue to get a new maneuver at every even level (12th, 14th, etc.), but don't gain any more stances or readied maneuvers, since those are only given at specific levels rather than expressed as a formula.
If your DM doesn't allow this, you can still use Legacy Champion 2nd through 6th to advance your Crusader levels and get 1.5 IL per level, which should let you grab another high-level stance somewhere. Then you can use Legacy Champion to advance Cleric and salvage some spellcasting.
If you want higher level spells, ask your DM if you can use Versatile Spellcaster to trade two 8ths for a 9th. (Clerics can spontaneously cast cure spells.)
If you want higher level spells, ask you DM if you can use Versatile Spellcaster to trade two 8ths for a 9th. (Clerics can spontaneously cast cure spells.)
Tats actually a really good sounding idea...
If I'm reading the feat right, it actually allows me to cast any level 9 on the cleric list spontaneously by expending two level 8s. It's probably not RAI, but it looks to be RAW.
By a strict reading, to 'expend a slot' do you need to leave it blank?
Darrin
2013-12-21, 08:31 PM
By a strict reading, to 'expend a slot' do you need to leave it blank?
The text says "use two spell slots". It says nothing about whether they have to be open, prepared, or whatever. Even if there are prepared spells in those slots, they can still be expended to cast cure spells.
Note that some DMs get twitchy about Versatile Spellcaster, and may put the kibosh on this.
I think it's going to be the closest thing to what I want, and the most likely to be ok with my DM.
Crusader 2 gives a stance, so I can take that at the optimum time and everything is rosy.
All this for Immortal Fortitude! Totally not optimal I'm sure, but I really want it!
Kelb_Panthera
2013-12-22, 01:40 AM
I think it's going to be the closest thing to what I want, and the most likely to be ok with my DM.
Crusader 2 gives a stance, so I can take that at the optimum time and everything is rosy.
All this for Immortal Fortitude! Totally not optimal I'm sure, but I really want it!
Immortal Fortitude is an interesting stance. Just know that it's dicey against creatures of a CR equal to the character's level, so long as they're straight out of the MM, and that it's a wasted action against built NPC's that aren't at the absolute bottom of the optimization spectrum.
It can be pretty awesome against a group of lower-CR monsters when you need to stem the tide with a fighting withdrawal, though.
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