[PF] First ever character, a fighter... which feats do I pick?

[Neknoh]

Alright, so, I'm new to D&D and Pathfinder, not new to fantasy or rp's in general, but I just cannot wrap my mind around what is good and what is not.


True Neutral Human Fighter
Aiming to pick up the 2 handed weapons (since I myself train german longsword aaannd I like characters chopping things in half and I fell for the power attack during Blackfang's lair).

Str: 18 (Human bonus included)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

HP: 12
BAB: +1

Starting Gold: 210
(Greatsword - 50)
(Chainmail - 150)
(assorted goods ~ 10)

My speed in armour is 20 (4) and my AC is 18
My fortitude is +4, my reflex +2 and my willsaves are at -1.

Innitiative 2

and that's what I know so far.

I've chosen to go into Climb, Acrobatics, Dungeoneering and Swim for my skills, figuring her to be a dungeoncrawler by heart.
¨

Now, when it comes to feats, during Blackfang, we found ourselves going "by ye gods, why don't we have AoE!" and trudging through the goblins of Fatmouth (I may or may not have provoked them). As such, I found myself looking at several different feats, and all I really know is that I'd like to have Power Attack, because it's tasty, but that's about it.

My current list of "I'll probably pick three of these" stand as:

Power Attack
Cleave
Greater Cleave
Furious Focus
Dodge
Weapon Focus Greatsword

Are there any I've missed? All of these are combat related but I couldn't seem to find any truly useful feats for a vanguard/doppelsoldner styled fighter outside of the combat ones.

[JHShadon]

Try taking a look at this guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/rogue-eidolon-s-lab/rogue-eidolon-s-guide-to-fighters), it will give you some advice about how to make a fighter and the conclusion will make you feel better about your choice to make a fighter.

Also since you're new to pathfinder I suggest taking a look at the Take 10 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills#TOC-Taking-10-and-Taking-20) rule in-case you did not know about that, for safety when using climb/swim.

[Eldariel]

Reach weapons are really good for two-weapon fighters. Doubly so since you have 13 Int which opens up the Combat Expertise route for Improved Trip (with e.g. Guisarme). There's no reason not to have an array of weapons around; you're strong enough and smart enough.

Though I'd also look into Barbarian. As you probably noticed, there aren't that many feats you want in the end and Barbarian gets some nifty Rage powers in PF. Fighter 2/Barbarian -> is a pretty good setup.


Far as feats:
- Power Attack is amazing
- Cleave is good
- Great Cleave is less good (triggers quite rarely)
- Improved Initiative is nice (gets you to the front quickly)
- Weapon Focus is meh (again, having the option of switching around your weapons is useful, though with how many feats you have you might want to pick it up anyways)
- Combat Expertise-line into Improved/Greater Trip is a pretty nice combat option
- Combat Reflexes is always useful on this path; enemies provoke AoOs, you cut them down as they come.

[Neknoh]

I have, but the explanations of why I will want the feats just end me in the same position of "But where do I start?" of course I want all of the feats I listed (all except greater cleave being blue in Eidolon), but I cannot take 6 feats at once ;)

So the guide, sure, it's helped me some, but still what I take away from it is that I distributed my stats well enough before I checked it, I picked my feats to a tee, but it doesn't help me figure out which ones are good starting feats and which ones are better saved for later.

Eldariel you ninja you!
I contemplated reach weapons, coming from, amongst others, Warmahordes, I can truly appreciate a good reach murderer, but isn't there a tradeoff in damage?

[Renegade Paladin]

I'd go with Power Attack, Cleave, and Furious Focus myself. Furious Focus and Weapon Focus are roughly equivalent at this level (both mean you can PA all the time without actually taking -1), but Weapon Focus applies to one weapon, while, as mentioned, you should consider having an array of weapons for different purposes, and Furious Focus works with all of them.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel you ninja you!
I contemplated reach weapons, coming from, amongst others, Warmahordes, I can truly appreciate a good reach murderer, but isn't there a tradeoff in damage?

There's no reason not to have both. Guisarme costs 3gp or something. And the damage trade-off is ultimately not that big (you'll have massive strength bonus and Power Attack and such to damage; the base damage die is only a modest portion though of course at its most important early on).

You can use Guisarme in e.g. a situation where enemy is a bunch of Goblins that you can just slaughter with attacks of opportunity plus Cleave and switch to Greatsword when something gets up close or when you want all the damage you can get.

[Neknoh]

Ty Renegade, this was the sort of reasoning I was after =)

Also, Eldariel, I won't be looking into a barbarian. It was my first thought and the first thing I looked closely at, but with levels and feats stacking up into eventually becoming a rage-cycle-machine and pretty much gaming the system to get as much use from your rage as possible, it just didn't feel good. My first bouts with Demon's Souls and Darksouls were the most fun, after that, I went into detail, I knew where items were, I knew how to build and what to do and it just lost it's charm. Picking a first character that avoids the negative aspects of their own mechanics by gaming the system just didn't feel as if it would be enjoyable in the long run.

Thus I went for the Fighter, mostly to still get that visceral, heavy combat feel, which is probably why I am not looking into reach weapons too much. I've read a lot about trip and disarms and sunders and prestige classes on higher levels etc, but for now, for my very first guy I rolled myself and my first Pathfinder adventure, I think I'll just stick with cutting and cleaving heads and bodies and goblins and ghouls rather than looking into how I best can build a strong reach fighter with combat disables.

That comes later ;)


EDIT: And AGAIN with the ninja! ;)

This does sound intriguing, however, our dungeonmaster being new as well, it feels as if I wont get that much out of AoO's as could be had, in our goblin fight, never once did an enemy provoke an AoO, simply because they just stood in their places, beating away at the characters. Is an AoO triggered when moving into melee with an already engaged enemy, or just when moving once you, yourself is engaged, because that could make a difference since we played it like the later in Blackfang.

Otherwise, the enemies will, most likely, just gang up and hack away. (Unless, ofc. AoO's are triggered when walking whilst in range of reach).

[Eldariel]

This does sound intriguing, however, our dungeonmaster being new as well, it feels as if I wont get that much out of AoO's as could be had, in our goblin fight, never once did an enemy provoke an AoO, simply because they just stood in their places, beating away at the characters. Is an AoO triggered when moving into melee with an already engaged enemy, or just when moving once you, yourself is engaged, because that could make a difference since we played it like the later in Blackfang.

Otherwise, the enemies will, most likely, just gang up and hack away. (Unless, ofc. AoO's are triggered when walking whilst in range of reach).

AoOs are triggered when an enemy:
- Leaves a square you threaten (outside 5' steps/withdraw actions)
- Takes an action that provokes an AoO (casting a spell non-defensively, firing a ranged weapon, picking up an item from the ground, etc.)

Basically, this is why a reach weapon makes enemies provoke AoOs; since you threaten 10' out instead of the normal 5', enemies have to pass through your threatened area (10' from you in any direction) to get close enough to attack you. Therefore, every opponent that closes in through your threatened area (or tries to move past you within the effective 25' square you block) provokes an attack of opportunity.

The only exception is the case where you act first, move up to strike an enemy and said enemy doesn't fall. In that case, you're only 10' away from said enemy so the enemy can 5' step in and attack you without provoking an AoO. 15' or more distance tho and there's no way enemy can hit you without getting struck (outside again things that negate AoOs). Tripping is often used in conjunction with reach weapons because getting up from prone provokes an attack of opportunity and prone enemies can't move fast (they can crawl 5' a turn but that also provokes an attack of opportunity) so whatever enemy does, they take plenty of extra hits before getting to you. It's not a necessary component tho; if you have a horde of enemies charging at you, reach weapon + combat reflexes is a great combination.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ty Renegade, this was the sort of reasoning I was after =)
You're welcome. :smallsmile: I forgot to mention also that Furious Focus' usefulness scales with Power Attack; it negates the entire penalty no matter how big it gets while Weapon Focus will only ever be +1.

When you get to level 6 and beyond (and if/when you're making attacks of opportunity at any level) though, you need to remember that FF only negates the penalty for the first attack in the round, so any iterative attacks and AoOs you make still suffer the PA attack penalty as normal.

[Slipperychicken]

Personally, I would switch Intelligence and Wisdom so your will save isn't complete garbage. All those melee feats aren't going to do jack for you if you're incapacitated, or worse yet, turned against your party.

The good thing about pathfinder melee is that very few feats are mandatory aside from power attack. You can pick basically any melee feat and have it be passable.

This is how I would build it:

Human Two-Handed Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter)
Str>Con>Dex~Wisdom>Int>Cha

1. Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (replace with Combat Reflexes if using reach weapon).
2. Step Up (follow enemies who 5ft step away. Very handy with mages, archers, and runners)
3. Iron Will (+2 will saves)
4. Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
5+ [grab weapon focus/specialization when you qualify, take anything else]

[Neknoh]

Wont I have two feats at lvl 2 and 4?

[Slipperychicken]

Wont I have two feats at lvl 2 and 4?

Pathfinder gives feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) at odd-numbered levels (1, 3, 5 ,etc), and bonus fighter feats come at even-numbered levels and level 1 (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 6, etc).

It works out so you get 3 feats at level 1, and one more per level thereafter.

1. lvl 1 feat + fighter feat + human bonus
2. -fighter feat-
3. level 3 feat-
4. -fighter feat-
5. level 5 feat
6. fighter feat
7. level 7 feat
and so on

[Hurnn]

power attack, cleave, weapon focus.

Imp cleave is a trap it plays great at low levels when you one shot everything with your 2 hander by 3rd lvl it is basically useless, unless you are fighting scrubs.

[Neknoh]

On the other hand, as a fighter, I can replace it can I not?

But yes, it's still a "wasted" feat if I replace it in that I could have something else that simply didn't need to be replaced.

[Spore]

There are retraining rules, but not every DM uses them and it costs gold and time.

[Neknoh]

Oh, fair enough, the earlier linked guide discusses a fighter getting to replace older fighter feats with newer ones if he would like, I take it I read it out of context then =)

[Slipperychicken]

Oh, fair enough, the earlier linked guide discusses a fighter getting to replace older fighter feats with newer ones if he would like, I take it I read it out of context then =)

A Fighter can replace one of his Fighter bonus feats every 4 levels. It's the second paragraph of their "bonus feats" class feature.


Bonus Feats

[...]

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

[Suddo]

A note worthy things about Fighters is Cleave is awesome because Fighters can swap it away at 4th or 8th level meaning it isn't a dead feat.

Going something like:

Power Attack, Cleave
Weapon Focus
Toughness
Improved Initiative, *Retrain* Cleave -> Combat Reflexes

Or something, remember cleave is pretty bad after you hit level 6.

[Renegade Paladin]

Or something, remember cleave is pretty bad after you hit level 6.
Not really. You can attack twice as a full-round action at +6/+1, charge and get one attack at a +8 with -2 AC, or attack twice as a standard action at +6/+6 with -2 AC. If you're not too concerned about getting hit, cleave is superior to a full attack for at least a few levels after getting your first iterative.

[Neknoh]

So, right now, after a whole boatload of helpful advice and answers, I'm looking at:

Power Attack, Furious Focus

But I cannot decide on the third one being either Weapon Focus or Cleave.
Although Reach + trip sounds interesting, and definately something I'd love to use on a later character, I think I'll keep this first one more basic and less "Trip everybody and force AoO's all the time."

By the by, WF and Cleave being as good as they are on early levels, is there no love for the Toughness or Dodge feats? They seem good on paper, but keep in mind that I've only ever played a single game of this (Blackfang's Lair) and that was with prerolled characters.

Is 18 AC enough? Won't I get my face eaten off by hungry, hungry goblins or somesuch?

[Slipperychicken]

attack twice as a standard action at +6/+6 with -2 AC.

It's not the same as attacking twice. You only get the second attack if the first hits, can't direct them both at the same target, and the two targets need to be adjacent.


EDIT:

is there no love for the Toughness or Dodge feats? They seem good on paper, but keep in mind that I've only ever played a single game of this (Blackfang's Lair) and that was with prerolled characters.

AC is nice, but it's not worth a feat for +2 (not to mention that your AC will largely stop mattering around level 6 when everything is able to hit you anyway). Hit points are nice, but you should have plenty as a Fighter with good Constitution and his favored class bonus in hit points.

Overall, you have better things to do with your feats.

[Renegade Paladin]

At first level, 18 AC is fine. You should look to upgrade your armor fairly quickly, though; for instance my Pathfinder Society character was rocking full plate before he hit level 3 and +1 full plate very soon thereafter. CR1 monsters tend to have attack bonuses in the +5 range at most, which still hits you less than half the time at 18 AC.

It's not the same as attacking twice. You only get the second attack if the first hits, can't direct them both at the same target, and the two targets need to be adjacent.
Which is not an issue if the GM is giving encounters of multiple creatures adding up to EL=APL rather than a single creature of CR=APL. And if he's doing the latter, the monster is hosed on action economy anyway, so if the GM is smart he won't do that all the time.

[Neknoh]

Allright =)

You guys are fantastic, just so you know.

So either I go Cleave and retrain it into Combat Reflexes at 4, or I'll go WF and get that extra +1, netting me quite the nice "To hit" bonus when using Power Attack.

[Killer Angel]

But I cannot decide on the third one being either Weapon Focus or Cleave.
Although Reach + trip sounds interesting, and definately something I'd love to use on a later character, I think I'll keep this first one more basic and less "Trip everybody and force AoO's all the time."

Reach is nice anyway, and you can obtain it at sixth level, with Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final).

[Neknoh]

True.

I guess I'm just worried of going overboard.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html