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Jack Zander
2007-01-17, 11:42 PM
Would a monk with a greatsword and TWF get his greatsword attack plus an unarmed strike since unarmed strikes do not have to be from the hands? Seems broken to me but I can't find anything that rules against it either.

The_Snark
2007-01-17, 11:45 PM
Yes. But since the monk can't flurry with a greatsword, and has to spend a feat or take a level of fighter to gain proficiency anyway, it isn't really broken.

Skyserpent
2007-01-17, 11:47 PM
Ascetic Knight.

Monk Paladin. I did in fact wield a Greatsword to AMAZING effect. I loved it...

I didn't try two weapon fighting but I could actually flurry with kicks and cleave with a greatsword when necessary. Flying Kick, Flaming Fist and Greatswords were a great combo. Probably not broken but it WAS fun. Low BAB isn't that great...

reorith
2007-01-18, 12:00 AM
Ascetic Knight.

Monk Paladin. I did in fact wield a Greatsword to AMAZING effect. I loved it...

I didn't try two weapon fighting but I could actually flurry with kicks and cleave with a greatsword when necessary. Flying Kick, Flaming Fist and Greatswords were a great combo. Probably not broken but it WAS fun. Low BAB isn't that great...

where can i find this ascetic knight?

The_Snark
2007-01-18, 12:02 AM
where can i find this ascetic knight?

It's a feat from Complete Adventurer, allows multiclassing between paladin and monk, and makes them stack with one another for some things; smite evil and unarmed damage, I believe.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-18, 12:03 AM
personally, if you have the gold to imbue, I'd ditch the greatsword and just imbue your fists. But then again, you can't do that at low levels due to lack of gold.

Ramza00
2007-01-18, 12:10 AM
Choose a different sword, Whirling Steel Strike (Can flurry with Longsword), Serpent Strike (Can flurry with Longspear), Double Steel Strike (Can flurry with two bladed sword) are all feats you can take in eberron.

Still the crappy bab hurts. (Why can't monks just be full bab, yeah I now house rules, yadda...)

Skyserpent
2007-01-18, 12:28 AM
Hmph... You also can't hurt any Demons/Devils/Werecreatures with your fists. DR is a bitch like that.

A Cold Iron Greatsword and the "Ki Strike (Silver)" Variant from Planar handbook made a handy Fiendslayer though. Heheh... I miss that Paladin...

Miles Invictus
2007-01-18, 02:01 AM
Couldn't you beat the DR, though, by wearing gauntlets of the appropriate material? (Heck, for that matter, couldn't you enchant gauntlets as weapons?)

axraelshelm
2007-01-18, 02:07 AM
if your monk isn't proficient in gauntlets just have gloves or rings. Your unarm damage deals lethal damage anyway having enchanted gloves would be no problem.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:19 AM
Heh; a Monk can Flurry with his Primary Hand and make Off Hand Attacks with the Great Sword, according to the FAQ. Don't ask me what the Strength Bonus Damage Multiplier is, though...

Darrin
2007-01-18, 08:42 AM
Heh; a Monk can Flurry with his Primary Hand and make Off Hand Attacks with the Great Sword, according to the FAQ. Don't ask me what the Strength Bonus Damage Multiplier is, though...

Ok, I get the flurry works if both hands are occupied, but I can't quite get my head around TWF+Greatsword. If a weapon requires two hands, then it's not your "off-hand" weapon and in my mind wouldn't get any offhand attacks from TWF.

I don't see anything in the FAQ that would allow this. The offhand attack from TWF is only available if you have two weapons, one in each hand. There's nothing in the TWF description that would allow an offhand attack when wielding a two-handed weapon.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 09:22 AM
Prepare to be horrified.

You have to read the bit about Two Handed Weapons, Armour Spikes and Unarmed Attacks. Basically, the Monk flurries with his Foot, Head or whatever and then attacks with his Great Sword. It's stupid, but it's possible.

Essentially a Two Handed Weapon can be used in conjunction with Two Weapon Fighting to make Armour Spike Attacks or Unarmed Attacks. The Character can choose which will be his Off Hand.

Dungeons & Dragons 3.x FAQ (December 2006), p. 36.




Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re
using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to
make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a
weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an
off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class
from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon?
Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an
off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for
using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when
pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that
and your armor spikes when grappling?
When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an
extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater
Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra
weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as
the extra weapon.
If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn
(or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you
use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack
action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light
weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a
shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases,
you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your
armor spikes.
Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon,
you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see
Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor
spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to
use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the
armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor
spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as
the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the
benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.
You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a
second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two
weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes,
you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with
the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and
the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in
Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook).
When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes
by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s
check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe
(see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the
unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging
your foe with a grapple check. Since you can use armor spikes
as a light weapon, you can simply use them to attack your foe.
You suffer a –4 penalty on your attack roll when attacking with
a light weapon in a grapple (see page 156 in the Player’s
Handbook), but if your foe is bigger or stronger than you, this
might prove a better tactic than trying to deal damage through a
grapple check because there is no opposed roll to make—you
just have to hit your opponent’s Armor Class. You can’t attack
with two weapons when grappling, even when one of those
weapons is armor spikes (see the section on grappling in
Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook).
You can’t attack and damage your foe if he has you pinned.
If you break the pin and avoid being pinned again, you can go
back to attacking your foe. If your attack bonus is high enough
to allow multiple attacks, you might break the pin and then use
your remaining attack to damage your foe. To accomplish this,
you must first use an attack to break the pin. You can break a
pin using the Escape Artist skill, but trying to do so is a
standard action for you; once you use the standard action to
attempt escape, you can’t make any more attacks during your
turn.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-01-18, 11:29 AM
It makes perfect sense. If you're capable of fighting effectively with non-hand parts of your body, they are valid weapons that can be used when your hands are full.

Primary Hand and off-hand should be retitled "primary weapon" and "secondary weapon" to help clarify these situations.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 11:31 AM
No, it makes no sense. What is the Strength Bonus Multiplier for your Off Hand Two Handed Weapon? 0.5? 1.0? 1.5?

Also, it means Two Handed Fighters can make Unarmed Attacks followed by Two Handed Attacks, further outpacing the Two Weapon Fighter. Hell, Rogues can Sneak attack with Armour Spikes and then Two Handed Attack.

Hyfigh
2007-01-18, 11:33 AM
Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East has Martial Flurry which allows him to flurry with any weapon eventually. Kinda neat too because full BAB progression for 5 levels.

Starbuck_II
2007-01-18, 12:00 PM
No, it makes no sense. What is the Strength Bonus Multiplier for your Off Hand Two Handed Weapon? 0.5? 1.0? 1.5?

Also, it means Two Handed Fighters can make Unarmed Attacks followed by Two Handed attacks, further outpacing the Two Weapon Fighter. Hell, Rogues can Sneak attack with Armour Spikes and then Two Handed Attack.
2 handed adds +0.5 Strength damage. So offhanded 2 handed means 1.0 (0.5 + 0.5). That would my rule if I was DM.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 12:19 PM
And logical, too, it is just sad that there is no RAW ruling.

krossbow
2007-01-18, 12:33 PM
Suddenly I'm reminded of the devil may cry 3 moves where dante would slam his sword into the ground and use it to whirly kick the crap out of enemies.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-18, 01:15 PM
I posted this stuff a while ago, but here are all the unorthodox off-hand things I can remember:

Eagle Claws: Sandstorm. Work as primary weapons, but with a feat(2, after counting the EWP feat for using), you get to make an extra attack at -2 to all attacks.
Braid Blade: Dungeon issue. Basically a dagger woven into your hair. Pretty ridiculous. More so if you actually went Monkey-Gripping/Wield Oversized Weapon.(HOW?!)
Boot Blade: FRCS. I probably have the name wrong. It's basically a kick with a sole blade.

"Better" flurries:
Chaos Monk's Flailing Strikes: As few as 0, as many as 6. Dragon magazine circa 2005-6.
Roundabout Kick: Complete Warrior. Free attack whenever you threaten(confirm?) a critical with an unarmed strike.
Snap Kick: Tome of Battle. Add another unarmed strike at -2 to all attacks. Does not specify full attack, so go wild with it for AoOs and such.
One-Two Punch: Frostburn. Frostrager class feature. As above, but might have different damage and stuff.

Alternative:
Lightning Mace: Complete Warrior. Whenever using 2 light-maces, critical threat=free attack. Similar to Roundabout Kick, with (probably)smaller weapons.

Note that in order to get all these feats, you'll need a fairly large number of slots. At least 3 EWPs(Braid Blade, Boot Blade, Eagle Claw), 2 "Kick" Feats, Eagle Flurry(for the extra claw attack) Lightning Mace, T/MWF*3, not forgetting that you still need Rage and the 2 or 3 feats to get into Frost-Rager. Total of 13 or so feats. Starting as a Human Fighter, you'd have to put in around 8-10 levels to start, then Chaos Monk+Barbarian+Frost-Rager, with just enough room for maybe 1 or 2 feats. Somewhere in the vicinity of a couple dozen attacks in one round though.

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 01:22 PM
I thought that two-handed weapons required both hands. So unless you're a ThriKeen you don't have enough off hands.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-18, 01:28 PM
I thought that two-handed weapons required both hands. So unless you're a ThriKeen you don't have enough off hands.

The Greatsword is "off-hand" only because the Flurry of Kicks is "on-hand". You'd be taking massive penalties for wielding the Greatsword "off-hand" though, it being a non-light weapon and all. Which is perfectly accurate, considering the mental image of a guy trying to maintain his balance with a 5 foot claymore whilst frantically doing a Cantona on his opponent.:smallamused:

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 01:32 PM
Sweet:smallamused: It would make you're character look a lot like Jackie Chan trying to fight with a broom, only occasionally doing significant damage but very cool. Still a ThriKeen monk sounds kinda neat...

Matthew
2007-01-18, 01:39 PM
Yep. Sadly there is no indication of how Penalties apply to Off Hand Two Handed Weapon Attacks. Generally you are much better off using it as the Primary Weapon, followed by an Off Hand Unarmed Strike. However, that would normally preclude Flurry of Blows.

Still, you could take Whirling Steel Strike and use the Long Sword Two Handed as part of a Flurry, then make an Off Hand Unarmed Attack...

MrNexx
2007-01-18, 01:41 PM
Josh, so help me if you try to replace that Druid with a Thri-kreen monk for our last session, I will have Sir Der Trihs carrying ten bug bombs especially for you.

I only allow wildshaping because it's a preestablished character...

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 01:48 PM
He he. Oh no, I wouldn't dream of it. Besides I would miss my tiger. Though in a session I was dming this Christmas my one of my players with a ThriKeen Barbarian after rolling his damage pulled out his calculator and then said "80 damage." Now mind, he doesn't even have magic weapons. He is ecl 12 though.

JaronK
2007-01-18, 01:48 PM
Offhand (secondary) attacks are always at +.5 strength modifier, and that includes the greatsword, so there's really very little point to weilding it as an offhand weapon. You can do it though.

Note that you can also just two weapon fight with nothing but your unarmed strikes, so long as you leave the "secondary" weapon out of the flurry. In other words, you can flurry with your right hand and then use your left as your offhand weapon. At -4 to hit, the penalty is pretty steep, but if you can fit in some precision damage (say, with some swordsage and that manuever that gives sneak attack) it might be worthwhile.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-01-18, 01:57 PM
Offhand (secondary) attacks are always at +.5 strength modifier, and that includes the greatsword, so there's really very little point to weilding it as an offhand weapon. You can do it though.

Note that you can also just two weapon fight with nothing but your unarmed strikes, so long as you leave the "secondary" weapon out of the flurry. In other words, you can flurry with your right hand and then use your left as your offhand weapon. At -4 to hit, the penalty is pretty steep, but if you can fit in some precision damage (say, with some swordsage and that manuever that gives sneak attack) it might be worthwhile.


That is a sensible interpretation, but it isn't RAW as far as I can see.

As far as I can tell, you can use the left hand as part of the flurry without sacrificing your Off Hand Attack.

JaronK
2007-01-18, 02:01 PM
There's a Rules of the Game article on that point, which says that you can't use the secondary attack as part of your flurry. It's not a secondary weapon at that point. Otherwise, you could fight with a greatsword, then make your two weapon fighting secondary attack with a greatsword as well, and we all know that's not correct.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-01-18, 02:04 PM
Good enough for me. If not, a Character would also be able use his Long Sword Two Handed, then switch to a One Handed grip for an Off Hand attack. That would be sweet.

None of it really makes sense, Two Handed Weapons combined with Off Hand Attacks should just go away.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 04:25 PM
A monk with four arms is definately a spell and or prestige class just waiting to happen.

JaronK
2007-01-18, 05:41 PM
It makes a lot of sense, actually. Why can't a fighter hit with his greatsword and then ram someone with his spiked armour? It's perfect for Barbarians, in fact. And yes, you can two weapon fight with a Greatsword and Spikes.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-01-18, 05:45 PM
Mainly because it puts Two Weapon Fighting out to pasture (as if it wasn't already). If you are going to allow Two Handed Fighting in conjunction with Spiked Armour, why not Two Weapon Fighting? Barbarians can already attack with Great Swords and Armour Spikes, right about at Level 6...

JaronK
2007-01-18, 07:13 PM
I'm not sure I understood what you just said there. If you want to know why you can't attack with two swords and armour spikes, it's because you don't have multiweapon fighting.

And yeah, it's one more reason two weapon fighting stinks.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-01-18, 07:26 PM
Multi Weapon Fighting wouldn't help, I would need another arm!

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-18, 07:27 PM
A monk with four arms is definately a spell and or prestige class just waiting to happen.

it already can happen, all you have to do is play a thri-kreen.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 07:48 PM
I know all about Thri-Keen, and how hardly any DM will ever let anyone be such a powerful character.:smallfrown: I was thinking of a way any race could grow extra arms.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-18, 08:20 PM
I know all about Thri-Keen, and how hardly any DM will ever let anyone be such a powerful character.:smallfrown: I was thinking of a way any race could grow extra arms.

Actually a Thri-kreen is not that overpowered. Especially once you take the LA into account. By that thinking, any monstrous race would be overpowered.

Feralgeist
2007-01-21, 08:36 AM
Girallons' blessing, a spell from Savage species. It gives you like, 2 arms per 4 levels, but medium creatures can only have 2 sets of extra arms.

you can cast permanency with it.

Also, you could use the spell Fuse arms, to give you a +8 str bonus each time, +4 for each extra set fusing with your arms. Keep doing that,and you have exp converted directly into strength ;)