[3.5] Low-Level Bogun Nanobots. What you think about?

[TheG]

Hi everyone! after fixed some issue with my DM and finally discarded the Core-Only druid option, him let me use the Complete Divine book and i found S.S. interesting...but i've also remembered the Nanoboots cheese/TO (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/999101) with Beget Bogun

(Emphasis mine)


BEGET BOGUN
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Druid 1
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Effect: Tiny construct
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Beget bogun allows you to infuse living magic into a small mannequin that you have created from vegetable matter. This is the final spell in the process of creating a bogun. See the bogun’s description for further details. Material Component: The mannequin from which the bogun is created.
XP Cost: 25 XP.


Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares.

So..to use beget bogun for profit i have to create at least 25 Diminutive Boguns to help me with Aid-Another checks (CD 10 to grant +2 to skill checks/ Attack roll /AC) this means an average +22 to all with 25 boguns (counting 11/25 boguns make the check) or +100 to all with 100 boguns (50% make the check)

Obv it's a dangerous strategy for the 2d10 backslash if 1 bogun gets killed, this balance a little the overpowered strategy.

So, the basic problem it's reduce by one (or two - better but cheesyer - ) sizes the created boguns, by the spell entry in complete divine


A bogun looks like a vaguely humanoid mound of compost. The creator determines its precise features, but the typical bogun stands about 18 inches tall and has a wingspan of about 2 feet. Its skin is covered with nettles and branches

It's open to personal interpreation of what kind of feature are customizable but, if the typical bogun it's like that, not all boguns must be the same... so even smaller, countingh that the creator shapes the body before the spell is cast.. so 25 butterfly-like creatures could be the right thing.

Do you have any suggestion to effectively (and RAW) scale-down boguns? Or how to build an effective Nanobots build at low (7th) lv?

[Flickerdart]

The effect is Tiny Construct. You can't make it smaller than Tiny, or larger than Tiny. All you get to do is change its cosmetic appearance.

[thethird]

AFB but if my memory serves you need a high level spell for the body of the bogun and thus even if this worked you would not be able to do it at lvl 1

[eggynack]

AFB but if my memory serves you need a high level spell for the body of the bogun and thus even if this worked you would not be able to do it at lvl 1
Yeah, you need a copy of control plants, which is an 8th level spell. Rather eliminates the viability of the whole spell, in my opinion, even if you can find high level casters willing to sell their casting to you. I mean, if you can get a caster to toss an 8th your way, do you really want a control plants for beget bogun purposes?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think you can reduce the size of a bogun since it's a creature, not a template. There's something similar that's doable by level 6 though.
You'll need Initiate of Nature (PgtF, requires Druid 5) and a lesser Rod of Chain Spell (MIC, 14000gp).

Go to the nearest city and use your ability to rebuke/command animals to gather stray cats (1/2 HD, so you can get 2 per level).
Use your metamagic rod and Reduce Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reduceAnimal.htm) to make them diminutive for 1 hour/level.

[TheG]

Yeah, you need a copy of control plants, which is an 8th level spell. Rather eliminates the viability of the whole spell, in my opinion, even if you can find high level casters willing to sell their casting to you. I mean, if you can get a caster to toss an 8th your way, do you really want a control plants for beget bogun purposes?


I don't think you can reduce the size of a bogun since it's a creature, not a template. There's something similar that's doable by level 6 though.
You'll need Initiate of Nature (PgtF, requires Druid 5) and a lesser Rod of Chain Spell (MIC, 14000gp).

Go to the nearest city and use your ability to rebuke/command animals to gather stray cats (1/2 HD, so you can get 2 per level).
Use your metamagic rod and Reduce Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reduceAnimal.htm) to make them diminutive for 1 hour/level.

Thx for replies: for the bogun creation the lowest level it's 7th so i think i should use a scroll for control plants. this set the price at 3000gp / bogun for the scroll of Control Plants. Maybe a custom word-activated item of control plants could lower the price for 50 boguns: 8x15x1800 x 1/2 (50charges) x 1/5 (1/day restriction)= 21600gp. seems good.

Size reduction still an issue. Begging master for a custom-version of the spell (by research) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineIndependentResearch)

A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. -- Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per level of the spell. -- . At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell level).
But it's ultra DM dependant...

Another way could be WoodWose (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/wood-wose--671/) the druid equivalent for Unseen servant. For a "Green Lantern" fashon of green traslucent cloud.

The description about skill checks it's a bit lacky (cant perform any task involving tech.) but if we read Unseen Servant spell text

It can’t perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can’t be used untrained.
but i'm unsure about the ruling of Aid-Another:

You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions.

Same kind means: 1- a check on the same skill 2-on the same skill and with the same dc?

however with a custom item of WoodWose/Unseen Servant for 1x1x1800 gp we can call 20 spirits with 2 minutes of activations that garants a good +20 skill checks for 58 minutes.

[eggynack]

Thx for replies: for the bogun creation the lowest level it's 7th so i think i should use a scroll for control plants. this set the price at 3000gp / bogun for the scroll of Control Plants. Maybe a custom word-activated item of control plants could lower the price for 50 boguns: 8x15x1800 x 1/2 (50charges) x 1/5 (1/day restriction)= 21600gp. seems good.

That's a pretty huge amount of money you're investing into this plan, and there's a massive time investment too. You need to spend 8 hours a day for a week, just for a single bogun, which means that your 50 boguns is taking nearly a year to construct, and that's assuming that you have the time. It's a lot, and there comes a time where the effect just doesn't justify the price, even for some theoretically greater effect. I mean, you're a druid, and one with a pile of money and time on your hands at that. You could do better.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Keep in mind that a wood wose can only use skills that are usable untrained. They also have no ability scores or skill ranks so they'll fail to hit DC10 50% of the time.

The cats could help you reliably with hide, move silently, climb, jump and balance checks. They can also aid you in combat, though you might want to find a way to get some temporary hp on them.
A friendly Cleric with Mass Aid would probably work, at least until you run into a spellcaster with Fireball.

[icefractal]

Well, as far as resizing, you can always use the Rod of Wonder trick. That would get them down to Fine-sized. At the point you're using 7th level spells though, I feel like there may be cheaper options.

[TheG]

Keep in mind that a wood wose can only use skills that are usable untrained. They also have no ability scores or skill ranks so they'll fail to hit DC10 50% of the time.

The cats could help you reliably with hide, move silently, climb, jump and balance checks. They can also aid you in combat, though you might want to find a way to get some temporary hp on them.
A friendly Cleric with Mass Aid would probably work, at least until you run into a spellcaster with Fireball.

The untrained skills are a good number and good utility:
Appraise
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Diplomacy
Disguise
Escape Artist
Forgery
Gather Information
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Jump
Listen
Move Silently
Perform
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Spot
Survival
Swim
Use Rope


if Unseen Servant/Wood Wose can aid another even if the base dc of skill check of the aided one is higher then 10 a 1800gp item to cast nigh infinite spirits it's a good deal .. 20 spirits means +20 to every check..LOL

For the "Handle Hanimal" i think the best one is the bat (maybe into the Hummingbird style to supercool druid fashon) it's a diminutive animal (25 could fit a square) and has good stats (exluding charisma) and skills - controlled with speak with animals to not waste actions


Well, as far as resizing, you can always use the Rod of Wonder trick. That would get them down to Fine-sized. At the point you're using 7th level spells though, I feel like there may be cheaper options.

Wow rod of wonder.. it seems super cheese :D but crafing boguns is still very expensive 21600gp for 50 + then 12000gp for the rod and 2% of boguns become stone, but it turns automatically fine creatures:
Total cost: 21600gp x 2 + 12000gp = 55200gp for 98 Fine boguns. Pay a wiz to cast stone to flash and you have 100 Fine boguns for 56000gp (lv 11 wealth: 66000gp)

A fine bogun has +9 Base Attack, Str 4 Dex 20 Cos - Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 10

This means
Roll 4 or higher on d20 to +2 AC/Attack => 80% Success rate > +160 AC/Attack
Str: Roll 13 or higher > 35% success > +70 Srt checks
Dex Roll 5 or higher > 75% Success > + 150 Dex checks
Cos Roll 10 or higher > 50% success > +100 Con checks
Int Roll 12 or higher > 40% success > +80 Int checks
Wis Roll 8 or higher > 60% success > +120 Wis checks
Cha Roll 10 or higher > 50% success > +100 Cha checks

However this kills Unseen Servant / WoodWose way


A 151 No. If the task's DC is higher than 10, it's not a simple task and it doesn't matter that the Aid Another check only needs a 10; it's the task DC which matters.