Everyone forgot all the victims already?

[Professor Tanhauser]

Just out of curiousity, has everyone in the comic forgotten the fact that nale and thog brutally murdered dozens of people in the city by the sea? I mean, it's like they saw the room where nale pulled the switch with elan and how people had been horribly murdered, and no one seems to give half a (Insert your favorite 4 letter word here) about the dozens of murdered victims.

I know that in games, books, movies, TV shows, etc, that the bit player characters tend to get forgotten and ignored a lot, but sheesh, this is going a tad far.

[Setra]

Maybe some Cleric came by and ressurected them all.

[Erk]

Well, they are not really the Order of the Stick's priority; they're a little concerned with getting their crap together so they can save the world, et cetera. Why should Giant be devoting precious strip time to showing the grief of their families, the victims' funerals, et cetera? I'm sure for the people involved with the bit NPC's it's important, but the Player Characters deal with innocent death on a regular basis. It is not likely to heavily impact them.

[chionophile]

...what's your point? Yes, the LG murdered a lot of people, are the members of the OotS supposed to cry about it? Not trying to sound cold here, but really now. Elan, Roy and the rest are doing everything they can to take care of the problem.

edit: hey, I'm a Dwarf now. cool.

[Hallavast]

Well, even if they did show a little more emotion on the subject, what can they really do about it that they haven't already? I mean, they're already discussing plans for execution and/or epic imprisonment.

[The Familiar]

Just out of curiousity, has everyone in the comic forgotten the fact that nale and thog brutally murdered dozens of people in the city by the sea? I mean, it's like they saw the room where nale pulled the switch with elan and how people had been horribly murdered, and no one seems to give half a (Insert your favorite 4 letter word here) about the dozens of murdered victims.

I know that in games, books, movies, TV shows, etc, that the bit player characters tend to get forgotten and ignored a lot, but sheesh, this is going a tad far.

...And if they could be sure death was a one-way trip to the Undiscovered Country, it's likely Nale, Thog and Sabine would be en route by now. Nale and Thog were not getting off Scot free--that was the whole reason for the switcheroo--it's just the gears of the Cliffport Justice system turn very, very slowly and have a few teeth missing.

The Linear Guild has always been the "bad guys", it's their whole reason for existence. Up until the murders-for-murders-sake however, they hadn't done anything over-the-top despicable: just a couple slain Sigil Guardians, duping the Order into helping them attain the Talisman of Dorukan and then leaving them in certain doom.

The slayings in Cliffport also offset silliness on the Linear Guild's part, such as delivering a monologue of one's plan to the bathroom mirror, in order to avoid falling into the "Bond Villain" trap.

Better, in my mind, to ask why Soon didn't get a cleric to resurrect Mijung (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[Jewel Thief]

That's why they're being locked up. Because if they were punished (aka death), they'd just come back and kill more people.

[Erk]

Better, in my mind, to ask why Soon didn't get a cleric to resurrect Mijung (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

The gods foresaw his grief would lead him to serve an important role in protecting the universe, and did not grant their clerics access to the resurrection spell.

Or, he couldn't afford it. Reader's judgement call, I guess ;)

[Kjata]

Or the if Snarl kills you, you are beyond the reach of the gods.

[The Familiar]

Or the if Snarl kills you, you are beyond the reach of the gods.

Good point. The Snarl did off a whole pantheon, and none of them were resurrected.

[TreesOfDeath]

Their nameless npcs, no one cares about them

[Iranon]

Not to forget all the poor little goblins ruthlessly dispatched by the Order of the Stick.

[Alfryd]

I'm sure for the people involved with the bit NPC's it's important...
Apart from the glaring illogic deployed by Haley in arguing for incarceration rather than death (which has to be just as escapable,) it does seem odd that no-one mentioned this nasty habit of theirs.

...why Soon didn't get a cleric to resurrect Mijung.
Rich answered this on the fora- the Snarl consumes souls when it destroys bodies.

[Alfryd]

Not to forget all the poor little goblins ruthlessly dispatched by the Order of the Stick.Don't be silly. Everyone knows goblins are stuffed with candyfloss and puppy dogs and make natural pinatas.

[Albion]

They're not people, they're just necessary background material. And lots of them are supposed to get butchered by some evil guys at some point. That's what those kind of evil guys do. And then the good guys don't, and so they can be good guys, hooray. Keep breeding, background material! :smallwink: Bloody peasants.

[Talyn]

Apart from the glaring illogic deployed by Haley in arguing for incarceration rather than death (which has to be just as escapable,) it does seem odd that no-one mentioned this nasty habit of theirs.



Elane actually specifically mentions that they kill a lot of innocent bystanders, which was the initial argument AGAINST sending them to prison. It was only after the party realized they could send them to a secret hidden fortress filled to the brim with fanatical paladin guards and possessing magic-immune cells that they could come up with an idea other than death.

As for the goblins... well, hey, you take a job working for the evil overlord, you know the risks. Redcloak didn't seem too inclined to Raise any of them (though he argued against their needless deaths and volunteered to heal them on multiple occasions), so they probably weren't too important to anyone but themselves.

[Alfryd]

Elan actually specifically mentions that they kill a lot of innocent bystanders, which was the initial argument AGAINST sending them to prison.
I suppose I shall have to concede this point. But look over there! *points over there*
*Runs away*

[Green Bean]

I think this is just more of Roy's usual attitude towards NPCs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

[chibibar]

They are just NPC. I like to think of this as Giant being the GM and telling a story of his gaming group of adventures :)

The innocent villagers are just villagers. Same with bad guys. As we have seen in the book the goblins do have families and children too but no one seem to care about them either.

[pendell]

Just out of curiousity, has everyone in the comic forgotten the fact that nale and thog brutally murdered dozens of people in the city by the sea? I mean, it's like they saw the room where nale pulled the switch with elan and how people had been horribly murdered, and no one seems to give half a (Insert your favorite 4 letter word here) about the dozens of murdered victims.


I think the answer to your question can be found in strip 329 ... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).

Note what Roy says to the NPC ...

"That's fascinating, truly it is, but now that you've fulfilled your story purpose, I find I have no interest in speaking to you any longer."

-------

That attitude sums it up, I think. The OOTS is aware that they are characters in a story ... or at least the people who play the characters are.

Therefore, NPCs are NOT "human", and therefore deserve no pity. No one in the OOTS cares about them, because they are story elements that advance the plot, nothing more. In fact, to Belkar's player anyone NOT a PC ... and even some PCs such as Elan .. are simply walking XP that hasn't been harvested yet.

That's why nobody cares about the people the LG killed. We only saw a few bodies on-camera -- and only one person with any development (the chief of police) actually killed on-camera. For the rest, we just have some circles on the map saying "massacre sites here". Is that supposed to upset the players? How worked up should they be, over characters that are two-dimensional?

The entire reason those NPCs were brought into existence -- their story purpose -- was explicitly to be killed to show how bad the LG is. Oooh, bad bad! With a stroke of a pen, the DM can make a million more NPCs just like them. Or even, through the "intervention of the gods" or a time intervention, bring all the dead ones back to life. Or decide that the "dead" were just an illusion. The lives and deaths of these NPCs simply don't matter, except insofar as they fulfill a story purpose. So it's hard to get worked up over their deaths.

Which is not to say that NPCs cannot touch the character's empathy -- the dirt farmers come to mind -- but they have to *encounter* them and they have to see some *development* before they can relate to them as humans deserving of empathy, rather than as circles on a map. That's why it's important for the DM to flesh out his NPCs, to make them "real" in the player's minds ... as in a sense Roy and the rest are real in our minds.

But that's why no one cares about "all the people" that the LG killed. Because they only say *one* death of an NPC that was "real" in their minds .. the chief of police. And they already hate Nale for that.

There's an interesting dissertation lurking here on empathy, and how racism and similar things have made it possible for people to massacre because there victims were not "real humans", but this is already getting long enough ...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Querzis]

They are just NPC. I like to think of this as Giant being the GM and telling a story of his gaming group of adventures :)

The innocent villagers are just villagers. Same with bad guys. As we have seen in the book the goblins do have families and children too but no one seem to care about them either.

You work for an evil overlord, you take the risk. We saw it with Roy in Origins, the OOTS woudnt kill goblins just because they are goblins, except Belkar of course. But if some goblins work for an evil overlord they came to destroy, they kinda have to kill them. Beside, the goblins were gonna die eventually anyway because Xykon usually sacrifice is minions. This way at least, the goblins died with less suffering and the survivors are not gonna die from Xykon.

But Thog and Nale killed dozen of innocent and defenseless people. And please dont come with the «who care about NPC». Everyone except the OOTS are NPC!

[krossbow]

At first I thought this was about all the chaotic good thog people forgetting about his victims. :smalltongue:
________
VOLCANO VAPORIZER (http://www.vaporshop.com/volcano-vaporizer.html)

[pendell]

At first I thought this was about all the chaotic good thog people forgetting about his victims. :smalltongue:

Ermm .. I'm a Thog fan, and I've never denied he's chaotic evil.

But I want him to grow beyond that to something better.

Might not happen, then again, maybe it might.

Abraham Lincoln said it best. He was once asked why he was so kind to his enemies when he should be destroying them. His puzzled response was "don't I destroy my enemies when I make them into my friends?"

That's the way I see it. Yes, :thog: has killed a lot of people. But killing or punishing :thog: won't bring them back to life. And a :thog: repentent of his misdeeds and working for the good of the world removes one small note from the :evil: side of the ledger and adds one to the "good" side. The world is a slightly better place than if we simply kill him. Then we just remove a note from the evil side.

But doesn't he have some karma coming his way for all the people he's killed? Well, I'm content to let the gods worry about that. I'm willing to show mercy to the repentent evildoer, in the hope that I myself might receive mercy one day.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[krossbow]

Oh, nothing against LIKING thog. I love thog myself! I also like Belkar, but I admit that both of them are chaotic evil.





My point is just for the people who think his alignment is good.


Thog is one of my favorite guys, and I love his stuff, I just don't champion him as a good guy thats all.

[Gooba]

I'd say Thog was classic chaotic neutral rather than CE. He's stupid, so easily influenced but he likes and is loyal to his friends (CE characters are not).

[jjpickar]

First of all CE in Thog's case stands for Cute Evil and even if a few alleged "killings" took place, traditional CE should care less.

[TinSoldier]

Their nameless npcs, no one cares about them

They're not people, they're just necessary background material. And lots of them are supposed to get butchered by some evil guys at some point. That's what those kind of evil guys do. And then the good guys don't, and so they can be good guys, hooray. Keep breeding, background material! :smallwink: Bloody peasants.Yes, and as others have pointed out that is part of the joke.

To paraphrase, "To kill one named NPC is murder; to slaughter a million nameless NPCs is a statistic (not to mention XP)!"


Not to forget all the poor little goblins ruthlessly dispatched by the Order of the Stick.


Don't be silly. Everyone knows goblins are stuffed with candyfloss and puppy dogs and make natural pinatas.Awww. Poor goblins *sniff* .

[Querzis]

I'd say Thog was classic chaotic neutral rather than CE. He's stupid, so easily influenced but he likes and is loyal to his friends (CE characters are not).

Yes Chaotic evil character can totally likes and be loyal to their friends. Where did you get the silly idea that CE cant like their friend? Thog enjoy killing people, making other suffer and breaking stuff, how can he be neutral? Beside any character that go on boredom driven rampage are obviously evil...maybe not chaotic but really evil.

You said classic chaotic neutral? If you ever saw chaotic neutral character act like Thog then tell them to change their alignement...now!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh. They're the heroes. World-saving fantisy heroes never stop to morn the random innocent deaths on-camera (so to speak).

[Gooba]

Chaotic Neutral fits him better. His violence comes from low intelligence, associating with bad company and a general desire to break things. He exhibits none of the selfishness of an evil character. Thog is not Belkar. Belkar is vindictive and callous. Thog is neither, he just enjoys mayhem. I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?

[Megalomaniac2]

Even the Cliffport Police didn't care that much about the victims (see #367), and they were their own townspeople! Let's face it, Commoners can't catch a break.

[ozymand1as]

...so? In all epic adventures this happens.

[krossbow]

DR. claw had mad cat; does the fact that he likes cats mean he's neutral too?
________
Box Vaporizer (http://boxvaporizers.com)

[Wallyz]

Awww. Poor goblins *sniff* .

Somehow, I don't buy that from a dude with a Kore avatar.

[TinSoldier]

Somehow, I don't buy that from a dude with a Kore avatar.Hey, now! Just because Kore looks really friggin' cool doesn't mean that I don't like the goblins better...

:wink:

[vbushido]

I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?

One of the inherent point of Chaos is inconsistency. Fecklessly maiming & killing people for the love of it makes you a spree killer, which, by the exhortations of many on the boards, makes you neutral. :smallsmile:

Keep in mind that, alignment is the mindset, not the totality, of a character. A Lawful Good person may be greedy or obsessive-compulsive or biased. The person's overall mindset is lawful and good. Individual actions and traits may not be. Roy has certainly had moments like that (i.e., wanting to abandon Elan), but no one argues he isn't LG. He generally is.

-----
Sleep. Friends. Grades. Pick two.

[Uzraid]

Not to forget all the poor little goblins ruthlessly dispatched by the Order of the Stick.

@ Iranaon: When your sig answers the question in full, you've achieved something great. Congrats!

EDIT: And since it didn't go in the quote, the sig in question reads:

__________________
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" - Joseph Stalin

[Haruki-kun]

You want the truth? It's because it's friggin' funny!

The strip is supposed to be funny, not a depressive melodrama about mourning families. Yeah, the Linear Guild killed a bunch of people, but tha just reminds us that they are EVIL. Characters who re only shown after deat and not even named don't really matter.

I mena, what about Belkar? He kills a load of people all the time and no one cares, right? We're not supposed to care!!!!!

[Rainspattered]

Chaotic Neutral fits him better. His violence comes from low intelligence, associating with bad company and a general desire to break things. He exhibits none of the selfishness of an evil character. Thog is not Belkar. Belkar is vindictive and callous. Thog is neither, he just enjoys mayhem. I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?

He also seems totally impressionable. He doesn't kill anybody randomly in a canon appearance, that I can think of. It's always in an existing fight. He just seems to go with what's happening. They're fighting? Thog kill a fool! Oh, Not-Nale is buying disguises. Thog dress up!

[TinSoldier]

You want the truth? It's because it's friggin' funny!

The strip is supposed to be funny, not a depressive melodrama about mourning families. Yeah, the Linear Guild killed a bunch of people, but tha just reminds us that they are EVIL. Characters who re only shown after deat and not even named don't really matter.

I mena, what about Belkar? He kills a load of people all the time and no one cares, right? We're not supposed to care!!!!!I care! My heart goes out to all of those poor NPCs and their families. I mean, who will think of the children?

Anyway, like I've said, part of the comedy is the uncaring for NPCs.

[Querzis]

Chaotic Neutral fits him better. His violence comes from low intelligence, associating with bad company and a general desire to break things. He exhibits none of the selfishness of an evil character. Thog is not Belkar. Belkar is vindictive and callous. Thog is neither, he just enjoys mayhem. I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?

Yes a chaotic evil character (or just any evil character) can totally like puppy. But a chaotic evil character is gonna do this to the puppy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

By the way dont come telling me he is neutral because he is not selfish, good character can be selfish! But as long as they act for the greater good and avoid unecessary suffering, death and destruction they are still good. While Thog love to make people suffer, killing innocent and destroying things out of boredom.

And dont come with the: «Its because of Nale bad influence». Its not Nale who force Thog to go on boredom driven rampage, its Nale who fear Thog when he go on boredom driven rampage! Its not Nale who force Thog to break stuff its: «Nale let Thog break stuff». And its Thog who use the Celine Dion album while Nale say: «No, no Thog. I'm still civilized». As far as I'm concerned, Thog got a bad influence on Nale!

I really like Thog, he was my favorite character before I started reading the forum but now I'm starting to dislike him just because of all the people who think he is a poor misguided good guy! What was really cool about Thog was that he was original. Thog is adorable evil or chaotic cute, thats why I liked him. He wasnt the typical dumb, greedy, selfish, honorless bad guy that we see in most of the stories, he was breaking the stereotype. But it look like the Giant did such a good job when he broke that stereotype that people who already heard very often about people like Thog, but just as good guy, think he cant be evil, no matter what he does. Sorry but you dont go to heaven just because you like puppy.

[krossbow]

Guys, guys, lets get off this and back on topic. I'm sorry, this is completely my fault, and I apologize.



I meant that as a little quip (as I did think that at first), but I didn't want to derail the situation.







But on the people: I don't know; I feel worse for the Dead police officers; I mean, come on, the dude got chopped in half trying to apprehend the order, and the chief got decapitated.
________
California special mustang (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/California_Special_Mustang)

[Setra]

I remember all the victims!

Marsha, and Kelley, and her little dog Skip, and Roger, and Jeffrey, and Kyle and Cody too! I remember them all! *sob*

[pendell]

I care! My heart goes out to all of those poor NPCs and their families. I mean, who will think of the children?


Belkar will ... after all, when those kids get old enough to have a challenge rating, they'll be worth XP :).

Heh heh ... reminds me of a funny story I heard once. Adventuring party finds a clutch of owlbear eggs abandoned in the wild. What would MOST people do with this ?

Well, what the party did is take them to a barn far, far away. Let the creatures hatch, use accelerated growth to bring them to maturity, breed them, then after the next clutch, kill the parents for the XP. Then repeat the process with the new clutch of eggs. Repeat ad infinitum. Literal XP farming.

I never did find out what their DM did about that ... although it was a joke, I'm sure.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Amon Star]

In fact, to Belkar's player anyone NOT a PC ... and even some PCs such as Elan .. are simply walking XP that hasn't been harvested yet.

I believe :belkar:'s attitude is anyone that isn't him is walking XP.

[Sir_Norbert]

This topic is crazy. To the original poster: do you "care" about the victims of murders you read about in the newspapers? I'm sure they do affect you, but not deeply; they're soon forgotten, with no lasting impact on your life. That's exactly what the murder victims of Cliffport were to the OotS -- complete strangers -- and they did all they could for them by helping bring their killers to justice. What more did you expect them to do?

[zaboron]

Who cares about dead people? They can't make any funny jokes, so just forget about them!

[the_tick_rules]

well even if they remember, what are they supposed to do. send them to cliffport for trial. i'm sure the LG has broken laws pretty much everywhere.

[ABChristine]

Don't be silly. Everyone knows goblins are stuffed with candyfloss and puppy dogs and make natural pinatas.

You are my favorite person

[Finwe]

Chaotic Neutral fits him better. His violence comes from low intelligence, associating with bad company and a general desire to break things. He exhibits none of the selfishness of an evil character. Thog is not Belkar. Belkar is vindictive and callous. Thog is neither, he just enjoys mayhem. I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?



Neutral implies there are good acts that counteract the evil ones. Can you name one good act that Thog has performed? Maybe there's some obscure thing in the comics somewhere. But can you name one good act Thog has performed that even comes close in goodness to the evilness of massacring hundreds of people? I didn't think so.

[Charles Phipps]

They're NPCs.

NPCs aren't people.

Bob had it right in Knights of the Dinner Table.

[V Junior]

I mean really, you think a CE character is going to care about puppies?

junior agree.

thog likes puppies. belkar dont. hence thog not CE. nale LE, so what if thog LE? thog probably LE.

[Amon Star]

junior agree.

thog likes puppies. belkar dont. hence thog not CE. nale LE, so what if thog LE? thog probably LE.

Barbarians can't be Lawful. Chaotic Evil can like what they want.

[Gooba]

Thog is clearly chaotic. But I don't think he comes across as evil. He has committed evil acts certainly. But he lacks malice and I would argue that it is Nale's influence that leads him into evil. Enjoying combat and smashing things does not make him evil. Is there an example of Thog committing a wholly evil act when not led by Nale? There may well be, but I don't recall one. His nature seems basically quite friendly (unlike Belkar for instance), almost sweet. His penchant for smashing things, including people, is more an expression of an uninhibited nature combined with very low intelligence (and probably fairly low wisdom). Nale, Sabine, Belkar all exhibit the nastiness of character we'd associate with evil. Thog does not. Most of his actions can be interpreted as a desire to help his friends.

A good act? Well look at his desire to punish the bars that had hurt some puppies. You must remember Thog is of low INT. An evil character would not be as moved to exact retribution for the slaughter of innocents as Thog is. In Thog mind, that action is Chaotic Good.

[archon_huskie]

Let's also not forget http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

How much money does it cost to raise the victims of a leat 15 massacers?

Each raise dead requires diamonds, diamonds that cost about 5000gp.

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

They aren't important to the story.

[Amon Star]

Thog is clearly chaotic. But I don't think he comes across as evil. He has committed evil acts certainly. But he lacks malice and I would argue that it is Nale's influence that leads him into evil.

Look at his expression when he doing something bad. Also, it may be true that :thog: is only Evil because :nale: is a bad influence, but that still makes him Evil. He may have been Chaotic Neutral before :nale:, but know he's Evil.


Enjoying combat and smashing things does not make him evil.

Destruction for destructions sake is evil. Also, :thog: doesn't enjoy combat, he enjoys slaughter. Give him an equal opponent, like :roy:, it no longer fun for him.


Is there an example of Thog committing a wholly evil act when not led by Nale? There may well be, but I don't recall one. His nature seems basically quite friendly (unlike Belkar for instance), almost sweet. His penchant for smashing things, including people, is more an expression of an uninhibited nature combined with very low intelligence (and probably fairly low wisdom). Nale, Sabine, Belkar all exhibit the nastiness of character we'd associate with evil. Thog does not. Most of his actions can be interpreted as a desire to help his friends.

As I said, :nale: may be the cause of :thog:'s Evil, but that still makes him Evil. Also, Chaotic Evil can be friendly and sweet. Otherwise, you won't get Chaotic Evil manipulators that go around starting wars for fun.

You're right about is destructive side coming from :thog: uninhibited nature, though. For he has no sense of compassion, mercy, guilt or similar to stop his actions. That evil. That all bad-guys are of the are the moustache twirling types with a manical laugh. And thog IS nasty, but he hides it behind cuteness.


A good act? Well look at his desire to punish the bars that had hurt some puppies. You must remember Thog is of low INT. An evil character would not be as moved to exact retribution for the slaughter of innocents as Thog is. In Thog mind, that action is Chaotic Good.

He only cared because he likes clowns. If :elan: had said the bars had killed some random dirt farmers, :thog: would not have cared. But the bars had hurt both :nale: and a clown, things that :thog: cared about personally. His rage driven by selfish retribution. However, :thog: may believe his actions were good, doesn't mean they are. Evil people are quite capable of deluding thenselves.