(PF) Paragon-surge eldritch heritage new arcana: Why do people think it works?

[Naomi Li]

Reading about this broken combination (cast paragon surge to get the second Eldritch Heritage feat for the arcane bloodline to get the new arcana ability for a few minutes so sorcerer spells are added to spells known as an oracle), but it doesn't seem like it makes any sense.

As far as I can tell, what it SHOULD do is add 1 or more spells to the spells known list... for the sorcerer class. And, as the person has a caster level of 0 for sorcerer and no sorcerer spell slots to cast it with, those spells known should have almost zero effect, being most useful for utilizing spell trigger items without UMD. There is nothing in the text that I saw that even remotely hints that going the Eldritch Heritage route switches which class the spells known are added to, nor that it can change the spells from arcane to divine.

(Actually, since the oracle is capable of casting absolutely ZERO sorcerer spells, new arcana shouldn't even let them pick the measliest of cantrips)

[Alleran]

You add the spell(s) to your spells known (not "your sorcerer spells known list" or a variant thereof). It doesn't matter if you're an arcane or divine caster, as long as you have a list of spells known and the spells chosen are of a spell level you are capable of casting.

[JHShadon]

*Reads Paragon Surge again* Huh, according to the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) Oracles can't learn Paragon surge while even Clerics can, is that just a mistake on that site or is it like that in the book itself?

[Naomi Li]

Except if you are a sorcerer/oracle/mystic theurge, they both keep their own spells known lists, have their own caster levels, etc. You cannot cast "bless" with your sorcerer slots because it is not a sorcerer spell.

Why should this work any differently? And the writing like that is clearly because it was written under the assumption that sorcerers would be the ones getting it. I am fairly sure the exact same kind of writing exists on all kinds of class features.

Even IF you could rules-lawyer your way into it functioning by RAW (something I think is exceptionally dubious), I think this being something that would work under RAI to be even less likely.

[Alleran]

*Reads Paragon Surge again* Huh, according to the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) Oracles can't learn Paragon surge while even Clerics can, is that just a mistake on that site or is it like that in the book itself?
"An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists."


You cannot cast "bless" with your sorcerer slots because it is not a sorcerer spell.

You cannot cast it because it is not on your list of spells known for that class. By using Paragon Surge for Improved Eldritch Heritage, you could add Bless to your list of spells known for a sorcerer and thereby cast it with your sorcerer spell slots.

[Naomi Li]

Well, actually, going by the exploit you can add sorcerer spells to the oracle spells known list, but not the other way around.

[Alleran]

Well, actually, going by the exploit you can add sorcerer spells to the oracle spells known list, but not the other way around.
Correct, technically (I used Bless as an example of "not a spell on your spells known list" to expand your point). An oracle can gain sorcerer/wizard spells, but needs to use Paragon Surge for Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) to gain access to further spells on the cleric list. A sorcerer cannot, off the top of my head, gain access to the cleric spell list by means of Paragon Surge.

It makes oracles better Paragon Surgers than sorcerers, but a sorcerer using it is still incredibly versatile, even with only one list providing them spells.

[Naomi Li]

So... do people ever actually USE paragon-surging oracles for almost-instant temporary access to any sorcerer spell they want, or is it an "arguably RAW but not RAI exploit that technically works but wouldn't fly in any but the most permissive of games"? Because it seems to utterly ignore the RAI and all around shouldn't function at all. And all it takes to fix it is to add in "sorcerer" before "spells known" to utterly shut down any pretence of this working.

[sepchan]

So... do people ever actually USE paragon-surging oracles for almost-instant temporary access to any sorcerer spell they want, or is it an "arguably RAW but not RAI exploit that technically works but wouldn't fly in any but the most permissive of games"? Because it seems to utterly ignore the RAI and all around shouldn't function at all. And all it takes to fix it is to add in "sorcerer" before "spells known" to utterly shut down any pretence of this working.

I would try looking at it from a different perspective. Forgetting about this "broken" way of accessing the Bloodline power, it is possible for anyone who meets the prerequisites to invest 2 feats plus the required skill focus to gain the benefits of the New Arcana bloodline ability. The difference being that it is normally a more permanent and thereby less versatile benefit.

Here are the requirements to begin to take the Eldritch Heritage feats normally.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.

Note that being a sorcerer is not required. The feats are explicitly designed to also give non-sorcerers access to the Bloodlines and to address your point, are likely worded the way they are with that in mind.

To indirectly answer your question about the feats being used in this way, I have seen many non-sorcerers use the feats to gain access to additional spells without any objection.

[Alleran]

And all it takes to fix it is to add in "sorcerer" before "spells known" to utterly shut down any pretence of this working.
No it wouldn't. That would prevent oracles from using it to get access to a different spell list. They'd still get Expanded Arcana for any cleric spell, and sorcerers would still be able to use it for getting any sorc/wiz spell.

[Naomi Li]

Sepchan, yes, Eldritch Heritage feats are meant for non-sorcerers to acquire freely too. However, most of them do not rely upon other sorcerer class features (which are not granted by the feats in any way) and wording that is being taken advantage of to apply it to another class's class features instead. A fighter using it to grab Wings of Heaven would be completely acceptable in my mind. A summoner taking some sorcerer spells? Not so much.

Alleran, Which is an entirely acceptable level of powerful, I think, even if it being a spell only open to half-elves annoys me. Being able to dynamically cherry pick from another class's spell list is an entirely different level of powerful compared to being able to dynamically add to your spell list from the options you didn't select yet.

[Alleran]

Which is an entirely acceptable level of powerful, I think, even if it being a spell only open to half-elves annoys me.
Take this feat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/racial-heritage) You now count as a half-elf.

[Naomi Li]

Requires you to be human, and why would I want to do that when I can play a halfling instead? Or a kobold? Or a half-orc?

Not that my playing preferences are really relevant to the discussion at hand. I just think restricting a neat spell with all kinds of utility to a single kind (or a small group of kinds) is a bit unfortunate.

[Alleran]

Requires you to be human, and why would I want to do that when I can play a halfling instead? Or a kobold? Or a half-orc?
"Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race."

FAQ on the subject. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qf9)

As far as half-orcs are concerned, at least, they can take the feat because they count as human.


I just think restricting a neat spell with all kinds of utility...
The spell is designed around the idea of a half-elf amplifying his inner heritage to become a paragon of both elf and human, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a kobold or halfling to have that (they'd likely have a different sort of magic that exemplifies their own racial abilities). That said, there's a note that the GM can consider allowing other races to learn the spell, which leaves it up to each individual table.

[sepchan]

Sepchan, yes, Eldritch Heritage feats are meant for non-sorcerers to acquire freely too. However, most of them do not rely upon other sorcerer class features (which are not granted by the feats in any way) and wording that is being taken advantage of to apply it to another class's class features instead. A fighter using it to grab Wings of Heaven would be completely acceptable in my mind. A summoner taking some sorcerer spells? Not so much.

The feat is not granting the Sorcerer's ability to cast spells, it is granting the ability for the character to add a new spell to their own existing list of spells known. That spell happens to be coming from a list the character would not otherwise have access to but the feat is providing access to it. The character then is only able to cast the spell using their existing spell casting ability.

From "New Arcana" description:
"you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known"

From Summoner "Spells" description:
"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time"

[Naomi Li]

Alleran, I don't really understand how the fluff makes much sense. WHY should an elf/human hybrid have the ability to cast a spell that grants them a neat ability for a few minutes when others cannot?

Sepchan, yes, I see what the "RAW allows it argument" is now. I still think it's utterly silly. If you look at the "sorcerer spells known paragraph", it also does not actually SAY you have to add the spells to the sorcerer spells known, but I don't think many people would let you get away with adding them to another class's spells known list. I'm fairly sure that the entire argument for allowing them to be added to another class's spell list rests upon the writers not thinking through giving the class feature (spells known) the exact same name for multiple classes, especially when they aren't meant to be the same class feature.

If you want to get really silly, technically, you could claim that a wizard 1/oracle 4 (for example) could take the "expanded arcana" feat to add wizard spells to the oracle spells known.

[Raven777]

Alleran, I don't really understand how the fluff makes much sense. WHY should an elf/human hybrid have the ability to cast a spell that grants them a neat ability for a few minutes when others cannot?

Because the book says so.

[Pex]

Except if you are a sorcerer/oracle/mystic theurge, they both keep their own spells known lists, have their own caster levels, etc. You cannot cast "bless" with your sorcerer slots because it is not a sorcerer spell.

Why should this work any differently? And the writing like that is clearly because it was written under the assumption that sorcerers would be the ones getting it. I am fairly sure the exact same kind of writing exists on all kinds of class features.

Even IF you could rules-lawyer your way into it functioning by RAW (something I think is exceptionally dubious), I think this being something that would work under RAI to be even less likely.

With Pathfinder's Mystic Theurge, you can. It's a Prestige Class feature.

[andreww]

Even IF you could rules-lawyer your way into it functioning by RAW (something I think is exceptionally dubious), I think this being something that would work under RAI to be even less likely.
You may think that but the developers have chosen to go nothing about it and have known about it for over a year at least. I raised it on one of the "ask" threads. I chased after months of silence to be told that silence should not be taken one way or another. So they know, they just haven't decided if it is an issue. That makes it rather difficult to determine what the intent actually is.

[Naomi Li]

Pex, point, but that feature also makes clear that it is NOT default behaviour, and doing so does not change it from divine to arcane or vice-versa.

Andreww, perhaps. Still, that kind of thinking leads to some very weird possibilities (like the oracle 4/wizard 1 I mentioned using expanded arcana to add wizard spells to the oracle spells known list) that I think are VERY far from how the game is meant to be. And it's not like casters need the power boost of splashing arcane/divine spells onto their list of available spells at little cost. (Especially if you take advantage of that (ludicrously powerful) neat ability that boosts everything casting related for one and then two classes from having sufficient prestige points in a guild)

[The Glyphstone]

You may think that but the developers have chosen to go nothing about it and have known about it for over a year at least. I raised it on one of the "ask" threads. I chased after months of silence to be told that silence should not be taken one way or another. So they know, they just haven't decided if it is an issue. That makes it rather difficult to determine what the intent actually is.

It's not an issue because it doesn't benefit monks.:smallbiggrin:

[andreww]

This (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=653?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#32649) is where I last asked them about it.

This (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=654?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here) is where we get basically a non answer.

[JHShadon]

Alleran, I don't really understand how the fluff makes much sense. WHY should an elf/human hybrid have the ability to cast a spell that grants them a neat ability for a few minutes when others cannot?

Perhaps it is because the spell gives you +2 Dex and +2 Int, which are the racial ability bonus to Elf, and it gives you a feat which is a racial ability of Human, so it gives them a bonus from their Elven Blood and their Human Blood.

[Naomi Li]

Okay, point, JHShadon. However, I think the game would have been better served with a more general spell. Especially since the spell is so powerful. (Even without improved eldritch heritage). Though this is really just about my personal play preference.

[Raven777]

The spell is from the Advanced Race Guide. It is not exactly mainstream to begin with.

[Slipperychicken]

It works by RAW. It's also cheese. Just disallow it.


Many problems like this can easily be solved with "Hey guys, don't do obvious cheesy bull**** like using Paragon Surge to get extra spells known. If you're not sure whether a given option is cheese, just ask me."