Wiz vs Glabrezu easy puzzle

[jokeaccount]

We fought a Glabrezu yesterday and 2 party members died because we went in like retards. Our fault entirely however the party wizard (we are all first time players but I've personally done a lot of research so I have some idea of optimized play) was trying to argue with the DM that this fight was out of our capabilities and we couldn't have possibly prepared to face an enemy like that. Anyway, obviously the DM is right and he even told him: "A wizard your level can EASILY solo this encounter". He was almost shocked that I agreed and he told me to give him an example. I said I'd get back to him with lots of 100% success ways to solo tackle this encounter. The only reason I'm taking this challenge is to show the wizard that our characters are poorly made (he's a big fan of direct damage and he's not even a specialist wizard) and especially HIS choices are bad. I am not pushing him to change anything just give him a little food for thought.

I've found 1 way and I'll devise some other ways too but I'd like to ask the playground's wizard pros to give me some really smart/hardcore ways to solo a glabrezu. There are some changes you need to take into account:
1. He has Quicken Spell Like ability instead of Greater Cleave which he uses for mirror images
2. We fought him in a plane where any kind of teleportation/planar whatever is prohibited by a higher power. This means no Greater Teleport for the demon and no Summons but also no Dimension Door to get out of grapple and no Summon Monster.
3. The wizard is level 8wiz/3fatespinner. Assume that he has a circlet +4 intelligence and any spell you want. Nothing else should be required (we hardly get any items and gold so I don't want to rely on item choices).
4. You start at 60ft+ range and you can be prebuffed. You roll initiative like normal (no one is surprised or w/e).

One way:
Start with Heart of Water and fly.
Use Celerity to get action
Cast freezing fog
Stunned
Activate Freedom of Movement free action
Move action 60ft to get into melee range
Assay Spell Resistance swift action
Sudden Maximized shivering touch for 18 dex dmg
Enemy paralyzed
Win

Except if I've missed anything this wins 100% of the time. General rules I think dictate that your method must work 80% of the time to be valid so we can use that. Anyone interested please post your methods.

Thanks in advance

[AMFV]

We fought a Glabrezu yesterday and 2 party members died because we went in like retards. Our fault entirely however the party wizard (we are all first time players but I've personally done a lot of research so I have some idea of optimized play) was trying to argue with the DM that this fight was out of our capabilities and we couldn't have possibly prepared to face an enemy like that. Anyway, obviously the DM is right and he even told him: "A wizard your level can EASILY solo this encounter". He was almost shocked that I agreed and he told me to give him an example. I said I'd get back to him with lots of 100% success ways to solo tackle this encounter. The only reason I'm taking this challenge is to show the wizard that our characters are poorly made (he's a big fan of direct damage and he's not even a specialist wizard) and especially HIS choices are bad. I am not pushing him to change anything just give him a little food for thought.

I've found 1 way and I'll devise some other ways too but I'd like to ask the playground's wizard pros to give me some really smart/hardcore ways to solo a glabrezu. There are some changes you need to take into account:
1. He has Quicken Spell Like ability instead of Greater Cleave which he uses for mirror images
2. We fought him in a plane where any kind of teleportation/planar whatever is prohibited by a higher power. This means no Greater Teleport for the demon and no Summons but also no Dimension Door to get out of grapple and no Summon Monster.
3. The wizard is level 8wiz/3fatespinner. Assume that he has a circlet +4 intelligence and any spell you want. Nothing else should be required (we hardly get any items and gold so I don't want to rely on item choices).
4. You start at 60ft+ range and you can be prebuffed. You roll initiative like normal (no one is surprised or w/e).

One way:
Start with Heart of Water and fly.
Use Celerity to get action
Cast freezing fog
Stunned
Activate Freedom of Movement free action
Move action 60ft to get into melee range
Assay Spell Resistance swift action
Sudden Maximized shivering touch for 18 dex dmg
Enemy paralyzed
Win

Except if I've missed anything this wins 100% of the time. General rules I think dictate that your method must work 80% of the time to be valid so we can use that. Anyone interested please post your methods.

Thanks in advance

Can't win 100% of the time with that trick, since it has at least one attack roll, maximum victory would be 95%. Also freezing fog doesn't stun. Celerity is an action also, so you're getting more actions per round than you should. Additionally if the Glabrezu wins initiative you might not be in such good shape, because unlike Nerveskitter, celerity cannot be cast flatfooted. Really soloing is a bad judge of a build in 3.5, most builds are not good at soloing encounter even tier 1 builds aren't, they're best when they don't need the heavy defenses that would require.

Cause if the Glabrezu wins initiative, he's definitely going for that dispel, and that could throw some very serious monkey wrenches into the works for you. And that full attack could really mess you up, if you manage to not win out that initiative. So this is kind of a rocket tag type thing. As a matter of fact, if I were the Glabrezu, I'd retreat out of LOS into the fog, and make you have to dismiss your own fog or chase it, since it can't take damage from the freezing fog. And if it falls prone the wizard doesn't have that many ways to take advantage of it. Also it can continually cast chaos hammer and unholy blight, every round while it sits in the freezing fog prone. This would be a toughie to solo without serious cheese.

Edit: Also having less gold is absolutely ruinous to Wizard builds particularly at mid-level when there is a glut of good spells. Almost no gold is very difficult to survive with unless you built your wizard for that very purpose. Easy-Bake style.

[JeminiZero]

IIRC, you cannot take immediate actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions) (to cast celerity), while flat-footed, and even without the surprise round, you are considered flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) until you have acted in combat. So you still have to win initiative to go first.

There *are* ways to get around this such as storing a contingent spell that activates celerity when you cast nerve-skitter. Because nerve skitter is a special case immediate action spell that *can* be cast while flat-footed, while rolling initiative. There are also other tricks like Dire Tortoise shapechange to ensure you go first. But I am by no means a wizard expert, so I don't know all of them (or even most of them).

[eggynack]

In addition to what others have noted, activating heart of water is not a free action. It's a swift action. That might interfere with some of this stuff going on. Anyways, I think there're some problems with this plan, not least of which is your intent to 100% this thing. However, I do not doubt that there is some plan which would successfully slay this glabrezu with a good degree of efficiency. Your plan looks reasonable, if flawed in places.

[AMFV]

Nerveskitter to win initiative then dismissal is probably your best bet. Without caster level shenanigans you've got a good chance that it blows the save, otherwise keep using the same spell till it does fail the save. If you can survive that long. Assay SR would be a good first step.

Probably my course of action would go something like this, Nerveskitter, then Grease (It has no ranks in balance and can't teleport), after it falls I'd cast Mind Fog, that should keep it from doing too much, depending on the alignment of the wizard, then Assay SR followed by Dismissal, that should solidly work. Although you'd have three rounds of warm-up.

6th Level spells would really be nice here. Since Contingency or Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability would be godsends. There's not really an item free way to push this past 80%, there's just going to be too many possible failure points. At least assuming a wizard who has an incomplete spellbook and not as many good options.

[jokeaccount]

About Heart of Water: Yes it is a swift action I missed that. Doesn't matter though since it has round/level duration. It gets activated earlier.

About Freezing fog: Indeed it doesn't stun but it forces 5ft movement maximum per turn so it is the same and since I'm outside of the fog I have total concealment so I am essentially safe. I do not cast the fog on the Glabrezu but instead on the ground it stands. The fog has 20ft radius 20ft height and the Glabrezu is 15ft tall so it is not like it is gonna be hard to find him in there.

About Celerity: Holy **** we totally missed that part of being flat footed... I thought flat-footed were only those who were unaware of the opponent (which is what makes sens tbh). Anyway I can still prepare celerity with the Contingency spell I believe for it to activate when I see an enemy.


Nerveskitter to win initiative then dismissal is probably your best bet. Without caster level shenanigans you've got a good chance that it blows the save, otherwise keep using the same spell till it does fail the save. If you can survive that long. Assay SR would be a good first step.

Probably my course of action would go something like this, Nerveskitter, then Grease (It has no ranks in balance and can't teleport), after it falls I'd cast Mind Fog, that should keep it from doing too much, depending on the alignment of the wizard, then Assay SR followed by Dismissal, that should solidly work. Although you'd have three rounds of warm-up.

6th Level spells would really be nice here. Since Contingency or Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability would be godsends. There's not really an item free way to push this past 80%, there's just going to be too many possible failure points. At least assuming a wizard who has an incomplete spellbook and not as many good options.

We're playing an 11th level wizard. 6th level spells ARE available. Dismissal is impossible due to the plane restriction. I thought about Grease but isn't he going to save this easily? I mean it has DC 18 and the glabrezu has ref 8. That's 50% and it is not enough. That's why I preferred freezing fog.

[AMFV]

About Heart of Water: Yes it is a swift action I missed that. Doesn't matter though since it has round/level duration. It gets activated earlier.

About Freezing fog: Indeed it doesn't stun but it forces 5ft movement maximum per turn so it is the same and since I'm outside of the fog I have total concealment so I am essentially safe. I do not cast the fog on the Glabrezu but instead on the ground it stands. The fog has 20ft radius 20ft height and the Glabrezu is 15ft tall so it is not like it is gonna be hard to find him in there.

About Celerity: Holy **** we totally missed that part of being flat footed... I thought flat-footed were only those who were unaware of the opponent (which is what makes sens tbh). Anyway I can still prepare celerity with the Contingency spell I believe for it to activate when I see an enemy.

It'll be very hard to figure out where he is, since he'll be prone the entire time. First thing he'll do is fall prone, then he'll use mindsense to pinpoint you and rain down chaos hammers or unholy blight, along with targeted dispels. At least that's how I'd play him if we're assuming a high level of optimization and intelligent play for the wizard we must assume the same for his
adversary.



We're playing an 11th level wizard. 6th level spells ARE available. Dismissal is impossible due to the plane restriction. I thought about Grease but isn't he going to save this easily? I mean it has DC 18 and the glabrezu has ref 8. That's 50% and it is not enough. That's why I preferred freezing fog.

Whoops it's too early in the morning for me. Then you cast Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability. Give it Shivering Touch, or have it cast some stuff for you, it could cast assay SR and share it with you, you should have a contingency for if the Glabrezu wins initiative, probably attaching it to nerveskitter as was already pointed out, but it's still not even close to a hundred percent if the Glabrezu is played intelligently.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's not an easy win for a normal level 11 wizard.

The biggest flaw i can see is that you go willingly into melee range. A glabrezu has 15ft reach, so he'd get an AoO on you.
Also, SLA's are mental actions so he can dispel your Shivering Touch.

You'll have a hard time ending the fight quickly since his saves are relatively good compared to your DC, unless the wizard is seriously optimized.
BFC is kind of hard too since he has Dispel Magic at will (at a higher CL than you have).
Illusions won't work since he has continuous True Seeing.
If he gets even a single action of he'll probably use his Power Word:Stun SLA. Unless you have some serious Con boosts that basically means you are dead.

There's a reason these things are rated as a challenge for a 4-man party of level 11 PCs. You could win with enough optimization and/or cheese but it's not something you can expect from a new player.

[jokeaccount]

That's not an easy win for a normal level 11 wizard.

The biggest flaw i can see is that you go willingly into melee range. A glabrezu has 15ft reach, so he'd get an AoO on you.
You'll have a hard time ending the fight quickly since his saves are relatively good compared to your DC, unless the wizard is seriously optimized.
BFC is kind of hard too since he has Dispel Magic at will (at a higher CL than you have).
Illusions won't work since he has continuous True Seeing.
If he gets even a single action of he'll probably use his Power Word:Stun SLA. Unless you have some serious Con boosts that basically means you are dead.

There's a reason these things are rated as a challenge for a 4-man party of level 11 PCs. You could win with enough optimization and/or cheese but it's not something you can expect from a new player.

I am confused... You read my post but it seems like you didn't. He is never allowed any saves with the method described. He is never allowed an action either (so no dispel magic or w/e). I'm not trying to cast any illusion. You provoke AoO when you move OUT of melee not IN. Also inside the freezing fog you can't see past 5 feet so his range means nothing anyway.

[Zanos]

I am confused... You read my post but it seems like you didn't. He is never allowed any saves with the method described. He is never allowed an action either (so no dispel magic or w/e). I'm not trying to cast any illusion. You provoke AoO when you move OUT of melee not IN. Also inside the freezing fog you can't see past 5 feet so his range means nothing anyway.
You provoke an AoO when you move out of a threatened square. In this case, since the glabrezu has 15 foot reach, you provoke twice.

20ft->15ft->provoke->10ft->provoke->5ft

[eggynack]

He is never allowed an action either (so no dispel magic or w/e).
How is he never allowed an action? Freezing fog doesn't stop actions, so unless you're moving right from a celerity'd freezing fog to your attack somehow (not really sure how, and if you could then why the fog?), and that's a period of time where he's free to dispel.

Edit:
You provoke an AoO when you move out of a threatened square. In this case, since the glabrezu has 15 foot reach, you provoke twice.

20ft->15ft->provoke->10ft->provoke->5ft
Nope. Once. One movement action can only provoke one AoO. Also, glabrezu have no combat reflexes.

[JeminiZero]

As far as delivering Shivering Touch goes, consider Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm). Remember, many monsters have melee attacks that count as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, but NOT striking incorporeal (like the spectral hand). Which is why the mighty tarrasque can be beaten by a puny allip. But it still has chaos hammer / unholy blight to destroy your spectral hand.

On the topic of Glabrezu using Dispel Magic against your BFC, how do you feel about the Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) bomb? If you can drop one of those at its feet, at the same time you drop a BFC, it will blow itself up, if it casts area dispel on the BFC (which hits the ERB as well).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even if everything goes as you describe you still have to burn down the Glabrezus 174hp. SLA's are mental actions so he can dispel your Shivering Touch (and his CL is higher than yours, so he'll succeed sooner rather than later).

JeminiZero: Keep in mind that Explosive Runes is SR:yes, so it's unlikely to work unless you have a boosted CL/SR roll (unlikely for a newbie).
They also only trigger on a failed dispel check.

[eggynack]

Even if everything goes as you describe you still have to burn down the Glabrezus 174hp. SLA's are mental actions so he can dispel your Shivering Touch (and his CL is higher than yours, so he'll succeed sooner rather than later).
I don't think that the dexterity damage can be dispelled. Once the damage is there, it's not really tied to any kind of magic anymore. It's just like how you can't dispel the damage from a fireball.

[JeminiZero]

JeminiZero: Keep in mind that Explosive Runes is SR:yes, so it's unlikely to work unless you have a boosted CL/SR roll (unlikely for a newbie).
That might be the case for an individual ER, but not for an ER bomb. Which is basically scribing several thousand ERs into a book, and triggering all of them at once with an area dispel. Even if only 10% fail the dispel check AND get past SR, that is still enough damage to drop a tarrasque.

Plus you can cast True Casting (boost checks to overcome SR by 10 for next spell) before casting ER, which basically auto-beats the SR of 21 for a level 11 wizard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think that the dexterity damage can be dispelled. Once the damage is there, it's not really tied to any kind of magic anymore. It's just like how you can't dispel the damage from a fireball.

The point is that Shivering Touch has a duration. Fireball is instant.

Edit:

That might be the case for an individual ER, but not for an ER bomb. Which is basically scribing several thousand ERs into a book, and triggering all of them at once with an area dispel. Even if only 10% fail the dispel check AND get past SR, that is still enough damage to drop a tarrasque.

Plus you can cast True Casting (boost checks to overcome SR by 10 for next spell) before casting ER, which basically auto-beats the SR of 21 for a level 11 wizard.
That would certainly work, but it's pretty cheesy and a lot of preperation which the wizard in the OP presumably didn't have.

I'm not saying it's impossible to win. Just that it's pretty much impossible for a newbie wizard who has at best a nebuluous understanding of optimization.

[jokeaccount]

I will accept that I provoke 1 AoO while moving in. The wizard has freedom of movement so not afraid of grapple and I can tank the damage of one attack (not to mention that particular wizard has 18 Con). I can also tank chaos hammers and Unholy Blights (NN alignment). So I'm ok with that. Are we sure one can use dispel magic via telepathy? If yes that has to be taken care of otherwise I think the plan still works right? After the dex damage you burn him down.

[eggynack]

The point is that Shivering Touch has a duration. Fireball is instant.

The duration on shivering touch defines the period of time during which you can make a crazy touch attack, rather than the period of time during the dexterity damage persists.

[JeminiZero]

That would certainly work, but it's pretty cheesy
True, but I was under the impression that this was one of those no-holds-barred exercises where cheese was acceptable. I mean, the opening post already mentions maximized shivering touch. :smallbiggrin:

I can also tank chaos hammers and Unholy Blights (NN alignment).
Chaos Hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chaosHammer.htm) (and Unholy Blight) affect neutral creatures as well.

[Kennisiou]

You may be overthinking the point you need to make. Forget 100% soloing the encounter, try just having a statistically highly probable chance of leaving it almost entirely ineffectual. For example, a basic metamagic stacked ray of enfeeblement (take arcane thesis: ray of enfeeblement, then split ray and twin spell it for 4 rays in one casting). Its touch AC is 8 so with a BaB of 5 you only need 2 dex mod to hit that every time you don't roll a 1 (which by RAW is a miss no matter what). From there you just need to overcome 21 SR, which as a level 11 caster meaning with the arcane mastery feat you overcome 100% of the time by taking ten. So with no save and no SR you deal 4d6 + 20 strength damage to it. Minimum 24 damage but on average you reduce it to 0 strength (and even if you don't reduce it that low, you reduce it low enough that it's significantly less threatening). You have now paralyzed the demon with a single cast using a single fourth level spell slot using a build that is generally considered not that great BUT is still far from a bad build and is capable of doing multiple tricks rather well (take arcane thesis on another good ray spell level 1-3 that does something other than ability damage and you're set, spell penetration and maybe greater spell penetration to make it a lot easier if both of these spells allow SR).

That said, he still has a number of useful SLAs and could potentially teleport away, but for the most part he's left significantly less dangerous and completely vulnerable to coup de grace attempts. (attempts that the wizard could make himself pretty simply by polymorphing to a good attack form and then attacking, or even possibly with a casting of enlarge person followed by greater magic weapon if he has a good two-handed weapon on hand, honestly). The point is what that build does is far and away better than anything a blaster could accomplish in a similar fight AND uses fewer resources than the average blaster would, since he casts one spell to disable and then a second spell to coup.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The duration on shivering touch defines the period of time during which you can make a crazy touch attack, rather than the period of time during the dexterity damage persists.

Well, there's a reason why everyone bans or nerfs that one. :smalltongue:
I generally use my interpretation and even then it's still crazy strong.

In that case i concede that it is a working strategy. You'd need to start in movement range though to get Assay Spell Resistance, move to melee, Shivering Touch out before the Glabrezu gets to act and stuns (and then kills) you.
On the upside a wizard has a rather good chance to win initiative (even if you can't use Nerveskitter since you need your swift for Assay Spell Resistance), and you can save that Freezing Fog and Celerity.
It's not a 100% win though since even a paralyzed glabrezu can still use Power Word Stun and then Dispel Magic (to get rid of your flight) and Reverse Gravity to kill you.

[JeminiZero]

For example, a basic metamagic stacked ray of enfeeblement (take arcane thesis: ray of enfeeblement, then split ray and twin spell it for 4 rays in one casting). Its touch AC is 8 so with a BaB of 5 you only need 2 dex mod to hit that every time you don't roll a 1 (which by RAW is a miss no matter what). From there you just need to overcome 21 SR, which as a level 11 caster meaning with the arcane mastery feat you overcome 100% of the time by taking ten. So with no save and no SR you deal 4d6 + 20 strength damage to it. Minimum 24 damage but on average you reduce it to 0 strength (and even if you don't reduce it that low, you reduce it low enough that it's significantly less threatening).
Ray of enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) does strength penalty, not damage. Only the highest penalty applies, so if you hit him 4 times, you still only penalize him by 11 points at most. And you cannot use RoE to reduce strength below 1.

[Zanos]

Metamagic loaded ray of stupidity works, though. Also avoids the range issue.

[Zweisteine]

Were you expecting to fight a Glabrezu? While an 11th level Wizard can, with proper preparation, solo one, I doubt said wizard would have an easy time if they did no prepare the right spells.

That said, consider that a glabrezu has CR 13, so it should be a "very difficult" encounter, according the the calculator on the SRD website. Even if challenge ratings are inaccurate, that is not a good sign for an 11th level party.

You also said that you were first time players. Most first time players should not be expected to play in a remotely optimized way, especially casters. Even with advice, they won't know all the tricks.

[purpenflurb]

If you can get initiative, assay spell resistance followed by a twin/split/maximized ray of stupidity would be an easy way to take it out. Just take a couple of metamagic cost reduction feats. You can fail on nat 1s, but if 3 hit the glabrezu is down to 1 intelligence and you could make a reasonable argument that it is no longer intelligence enough to use dispel magic on you.

[Zanos]

Edit:
Nope. Once. One movement action can only provoke one AoO. Also, glabrezu have no combat reflexes.
A quick rule-check shows that you are correct. Whoops.

That said, consider that a glabrezu has CR 13, so it should be a "very difficult" encounter, according the the calculator on the SRD website. Even if challenge ratings are inaccurate, that is not a good sign for an 11th level party.

You also said that you were first time players. Most first time players should not be expected to play in a remotely optimized way, especially casters. Even with advice, they won't know all the tricks.
This is also a good point. This is clearly an unoptimized party, and the DM should take that into account when preparing difficult encounters. The fact that escape was largely disabled and the Glabrezu posseses abilities that make people who can't fly worthless(reverse gravity) make it especially difficult for people who aren't optimized to contribute meaningfully to this situation.

If the wizards complaint was that the encounter was above what the party could be expected to handle and they could not flee from it with their prepared resources, that's a fairly legitimate complaint.

[beforemath]

Quick question -- how are you getting around his mirror images (quickened) using all of these touch attacks?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Quick question -- how are you getting around his mirror images (quickened) using all of these touch attacks?

By striking first, before he puts them up. :smalltongue:

I'll second what Zweisteine and Zanos said. Experienced players can be expected to know, buy and prepare the necessary equipment, spells & tactics to deal with a foe like that.
For inexperienced players an intelligently played demon is significantly more challenging, even with preperation.

[eggynack]

If the wizards complain was that the encounter was above what the party could be expected to handle and they could not flee from it with their prepared resources, that's a fairly legitimate complaint.
Indeed so. You're supposed to build encounters for what is, rather than for what could be. Saying, "Well, you're playing a sorcerer, and that means that you could have built a mailman, and so I'm setting you up against encounters on that scale" makes zero sense.

[KillianHawkeye]

Quick question -- how are you getting around his mirror images (quickened) using all of these touch attacks?


By striking first, before he puts them up. :smalltongue:

You're missing the fact that he can use it at-will, and it lasts for 14 minutes. There IS no "before he puts them up." :smallwink:

[sleepyphoenixx]

You're missing the fact that he can use it at-will, and it lasts for 14 minutes. There IS no "before he puts them up." :smallwink:

Well, that depends on your DM. It makes sense from a tactical standpoint but i just can't see them running around with Mirror Image always active from an immersion view.

[AMFV]

Well, that depends on your DM. It makes sense from a tactical standpoint but i just can't see them running around with Mirror Image always active from an immersion view.

Why not? It seems fitting for a demon to do that, and practicable too. Also if we're giving the wizard unfair buffing time then that's not really a very good kind of challenge for him is it. We need to play the Glabrezu as intelligently as the wizard for the stated challenge to be fair. So for example when there's a fog, he falls prone and uses Mindsight to continue to attack.

[Zanos]

If buff rounds are available, the Wizard casts True Seeing.

[AMFV]

If buff rounds are available, the Wizard casts True Seeing.

Which works if he wins initiative, because otherwise the Glabrezu is dismissing that right quick. We're just not looking at a slam-dunk without some shenanigans here, furthermore the only way we could get probably a sure win (outside of dismissal) is if we knew exactly that we were facing a Glabrezu.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it really isn't as a easy a win as either the player or the DM have presented it, particularly if the Glabrezu is played with any optimization at all. (Quicken SLA: Dispel comes to mind...) The wizard without the ability to leave could very easily get hosed by bad rolls, whereas it's harder for him (particularly underfunded) to win decisively.

I think that the problem is that the player is being told off for underoptimizing when there is every chance he wasn't.

[Zanos]

Which works if he wins initiative, because otherwise the Glabrezu is dismissing that right quick. We're just not looking at a slam-dunk without some shenanigans here, furthermore the only way we could get probably a sure win (outside of dismissal) is if we knew exactly that we were facing a Glabrezu.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it really isn't as a easy a win as either the player or the DM have presented it, particularly if the Glabrezu is played with any optimization at all. (Quicken SLA: Dispel comes to mind...) The wizard without the ability to leave could very easily get hosed by bad rolls, whereas it's harder for him (particularly underfunded) to win decisively.

I think that the problem is that the player is being told off for underoptimizing when there is every chance he wasn't.
I agree it's not an easy win. The wizard does have tools in his toolkit to deal with this issue by himself, but would need knowledge of the encounter beforehand. It's also not something I would expect from even many experienced players I know.

Contingent Celerity is also available at this level, though, even if you lose initiative.

[Aegis013]

Wizard 8/Fatespinner 3, with high Int, yadda, yadda, assuming human, no flaws, generalist and prefers direct damage.

Feats:
1. Maximize Spell
H. Empower Spell
3. Twin Spell
6. Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell
9. Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)

Cast Contingency: Cast Celerity on self when you cast Nerveskitter on self.

Start the fight, Nerveskitter yourself.

Fire off a Twinned (+1 level) Maximized (+1 level) Empowered (+0 levels) Orb of Fire from a 6th level slot as a standard. Assuming you land both orbs, which shouldn't be too difficult against touch AC 8 and with free action Spin Destiny to slightly increase your odds, you hit the target for 198. With 20 blocked by fire resistance, you deal 178 damage which drops the target to -4 health.

Spells known: Orb of Fire, Nerveskitter, Celerity, Contigency, ???, profit.

This is assuming you just walk into a room with a Galbrezu who has done absolutely nothing to prepare and is wearing no magic items or anything like that. It should work most of the time.

[AMFV]

Wizard 8/Fatespinner 3, with high Int, yadda, yadda, assuming human, no flaws, generalist and prefers direct damage.

Feats:
1. Maximize Spell
H. Empower Spell
3. Twin Spell
6. Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell
9. Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)

Cast Contingency: Cast Celerity on self when you cast Nerveskitter on self.

Start the fight, Nerveskitter yourself.

Fire off a Twinned (+1 level) Maximized (+1 level) Empowered (+0 levels) Orb of Fire from a 6th level slot as a standard. Assuming you land both orbs, which shouldn't be too difficult against touch AC 8 and with free action Spin Destiny to slightly increase your odds, you hit the target for 198. With 20 blocked by fire resistance, you deal 178 damage which drops the target to -4 health.

Spells known: Orb of Fire, Nerveskitter, Celerity, Contigency, ???, profit.

This is assuming you just walk into a room with a Galbrezu who has done absolutely nothing to prepare and is wearing no magic items or anything like that. It should work most of the time.

You'd still need a way to beat the mirror image, of course that's doable with true seeing, but not necessarily as easily, since there's no reason for the Glabrezu to ever have that off. Direct damage does appear to be the most efficient solution for soloing though, and those are repairable problems.

Of course we're not taking into account the NPC WBL that the creature has, it's possible that it could have picked up an item of fire resist, although at this point that's kind of more idle speculation than anything else. And probably wouldn't be productive for the conversation.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's a bit more optimization than i would expect from a newbie though.

[Aegis013]

You'd still need a way to beat the mirror image, of course that's doable with true seeing, but not necessarily as easily, since there's no reason for the Glabrezu to ever have that off. Direct damage does appear to be the most efficient solution for soloing though, and those are repairable problems.

Of course we're not taking into account the NPC WBL that the creature has, it's possible that it could have picked up an item of fire resist, although at this point that's kind of more idle speculation than anything else. And probably wouldn't be productive for the conversation.

As I said, that was assuming the Glabrezu had done literally nothing to prepare. Including setting up its (easily all-day) Mirror Images, and having no magic items.


That's a bit more optimization than i would expect from a newbie though.

It's a whole lot more than I would expect, but the OP did ask for a fairly reliable way to knock it down with a Wiz 8/Ftspnr 3, and so that's what I provided based on what he said.

I'm not really sure that showing him this would be productive though, honestly. He might just decide to turn into a mailman Wizard and frustrate the DM.

[jokeaccount]

Wizard 8/Fatespinner 3, with high Int, yadda, yadda, assuming human, no flaws, generalist and prefers direct damage.

Feats:
1. Maximize Spell
H. Empower Spell
3. Twin Spell
6. Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell
9. Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)

Cast Contingency: Cast Celerity on self when you cast Nerveskitter on self.

Start the fight, Nerveskitter yourself.

Fire off a Twinned (+1 level) Maximized (+1 level) Empowered (+0 levels) Orb of Fire from a 6th level slot as a standard. Assuming you land both orbs, which shouldn't be too difficult against touch AC 8 and with free action Spin Destiny to slightly increase your odds, you hit the target for 198. With 20 blocked by fire resistance, you deal 178 damage which drops the target to -4 health.

Spells known: Orb of Fire, Nerveskitter, Celerity, Contigency, ???, profit.

This is assuming you just walk into a room with a Galbrezu who has done absolutely nothing to prepare and is wearing no magic items or anything like that. It should work most of the time.

Seems legit. That's what I was looking for.
The Wizard is not being told off for underoptimizing. He's being told off for thinking the encounters are harder than they should be. I'll give you some extra details for you to judge:

We were told that an npc Wizard had a book we needed. We go to his house, knock on the door but no answer. We decide to break in. Unfortunately we have 2 lawful good characters in the party who would have complained so the wizard draws their attention with some fake questions/chat/bs. I go in along with the Bard while the Holy Liberator stands guard outside. After disabling traps and stuff we find the Wizard but it turns out he is the Glabrezu that we had "killed" days before and he wanted revenge. For some reason (which I didn't really take part of :P ) he had approached us before showing his true colors so when my rogue tried to take the bard and fly away the glabrezu grappled the bard, combat ensued and until the rest of the party came we were dead. Our group is:

Lvl 14 Paladin
Lvl 12 Holy Liberator
Lvl 11 Wizard/Spinner
Lvl 11 Cleric
Lvl 11 Bard/Seeker of the Song
Ecl 11 Rog4/Ftr5/ShadowWalker/ShadowLord1

Essentially we stupidly went in blind because I didn't exactly expect an encounter (much less a glabrezu) but instead to issue a caster duel challenge for the book we wanted.

[AMFV]

Seems legit. That's what I was looking for.
The Wizard is not being told off for underoptimizing. He's being told off for thinking the encounters are harder than they should be. I'll give you some extra details for you to judge:

We were told that an npc Wizard had a book we needed. We go to his house, knock on the door but no answer. We decide to break in. Unfortunately we have 2 lawful good characters in the party who would have complained so the wizard draws their attention with some fake questions/chat/bs. I go in along with the Bard while the Holy Liberator stands guard outside. After disabling traps and stuff we find the Wizard but it turns out he is the Glabrezu that we had "killed" days before and he wanted revenge. For some reason (which I didn't really take part of :P ) he had approached us before showing his true colors so when my rogue tried to take the bard and fly away the glabrezu grappled the bard, combat ensued and until the rest of the party came we were dead. Our group is:

Lvl 14 Paladin
Lvl 12 Holy Liberator
Lvl 11 Wizard/Spinner
Lvl 11 Cleric
Lvl 11 Bard/Seeker of the Song
Ecl 11 Rog4/Ftr5/ShadowWalker/ShadowLord1

Essentially we stupidly went in blind because I didn't exactly expect an encounter (much less a glabrezu) but instead to issue a caster duel challenge for the book we wanted.

Well if he's prepared for a caster duel he's not prepared for a Glabrezu at all, big melee monsters take a very different sort of preparation, the best option there is an invisible fog spell and then running away as fast as possible. Glabrezus are large melee monsters, the options that shut them down are very different from the options that would shut down a full caster. That would probably explain the disconnect.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For a 6 man party that's a reasonable encounter. If you split up and die it's your own fault. :smalltongue:

[jokeaccount]

For a 6 man party that's a reasonable encounter. If you split up and die it's your own fault. :smalltongue:

Exactly. The wizard btw has very few spells at the moment since the book was actually his spell book but that was not the point. The point is that it was an appropriate encounter (we already had defeated this guy WITHOUT items but some masterwork weapons) and now we lost WITH gear.

[Dr. Cliché]

I know I'm playing devil's demon's advocate here

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

[AMFV]

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

Nah, Demons eat their lawyers, the whole process winds up getting outsourced, it's all very technical.


Exactly. The wizard btw has very few spells at the moment since the book was actually his spell book but that was not the point. The point is that it was an appropriate encounter (we already had defeated this guy WITHOUT items but some masterwork weapons) and now we lost WITH gear.

So not only was he prepared for the wrong encounter, but he didn't have his spellbook? That's going to significantly increase the difficulty of the encounter, several big steps at the very least.

[jokeaccount]

But we had JUST defeated that guy WITHOUT gear and now we HAD gear AND extra levels!

[AMFV]

But we had JUST defeated that guy WITHOUT gear and now we HAD gear AND extra levels!

If a Wizard has no spell book he might as well be a naked commoner, that's the source of all of his power. He was already underprepared for any encounter and then believed himself to be facing a completely different encounter, it'd be hard for any not crazy crazy crazy prepped wizard to come out ahead in that scenario. And that's gamebreaking crazy prepped not just regular crazy prepped.

[Kennisiou]

If a Wizard has no spell book he might as well be a naked commoner, that's the source of all of his power. He was already underprepared for any encounter and then believed himself to be facing a completely different encounter, it'd be hard for any not crazy crazy crazy prepped wizard to come out ahead in that scenario. And that's gamebreaking crazy prepped not just regular crazy prepped.

Honestly, most of the gamebreaking crazy prep for "how to operate without your spellbook" revolves around just, like, not losing the spellbook. Or at least the simple parts, like contingent teleport object for if the spellbook gets stolen, for example. And specialized spellbooks so they can't get set on fire or take water damage. That kind of thing.

[jokeaccount]

The wizard had some spells at his disposal through various means. As I said we've defeated this opponent before without spellbooks and gear and anything.

[AMFV]

The wizard had some spells at his disposal through various means. As I said we've defeated this opponent before without spellbooks and gear and anything.

But he wasn't a Glabrezu at that time or was holding back as I understand it... and some spells != wizard optimization level spells, that's like being half a sorcerer.

[Kennisiou]

The other important thing to remember her is it's a mid-op party of 6 level elevens. Take away the wizard but don't split the rest of the party and they can still handle a CR 13 encounter like that without issue, usually.

[Zanos]

After the expanded bit, yeah, the encounter should have been fine.

Your team just needs to practice your door breach maneuver.

[CombatOwl]

One way:
Start with Heart of Water and fly.

If you win initiative, yes. Others have pointed out why.


Use Celerity to get action
Cast freezing fog
Stunned

I'm confused, where is the stun coming from? Freezing Fog does not stun things, it just slows movement, applies a debuff, grants concealment, does a bit of damage and possibly causes them to fall.

On the Glabrezu's round, he'll just teleport out with his at-will teleport.


Activate Freedom of Movement free action

Swift, not free.


Move action 60ft to get into melee range
Assay Spell Resistance swift action

Can't use HoW's freedom of movement and ASR in the same round.


Sudden Maximized shivering touch for 18 dex dmg
Enemy paralyzed
Win

Possibly. Even setting aside the problem that comes from the glabrezu having total concealment against you at the start of your round (you don't know where in the freezing fog he is--makes it hard to figure out where you ought to go)... He's got concealment against your shivering touch when you try to attack him, as per freezing fog. That's a flat 20% chance to just plain miss. You also have a 5% chance to roll a 1 and miss because of that.

Things get worse for that wizard if the glabrezu was smart enough to ready his power word stun to stun the wizard on approach--because he gets an action inbetween all that. He has one obvious save--greater teleport--but if he wants to lay a beatdown on the wizard, power word stun would work just as well.

Honestly, a glabrezu playing it safe will just teleport out, summon his demons, and have all of them teleport back in a few rounds later.

[jokeaccount]

If you win initiative, yes. Others have pointed out why.



I'm confused, where is the stun coming from? Freezing Fog does not stun things, it just slows movement, applies a debuff, grants concealment, does a bit of damage and possibly causes them to fall.

On the Glabrezu's round, he'll just teleport out with his at-will teleport.



Swift, not free.



Can't use HoW's freedom of movement and ASR in the same round.



Possibly. Even setting aside the problem that comes from the glabrezu having total concealment against you at the start of your round (you don't know where in the freezing fog he is--makes it hard to figure out where you ought to go)... He's got concealment against your shivering touch when you try to attack him, as per freezing fog. That's a flat 20% chance to just plain miss. You also have a 5% chance to roll a 1 and miss because of that.

Things get worse for that wizard if the glabrezu was smart enough to ready his power word stun to stun the wizard on approach--because he gets an action inbetween all that. He has one obvious save--greater teleport--but if he wants to lay a beatdown on the wizard, power word stun would work just as well.

Honestly, a glabrezu playing it safe will just teleport out, summon his demons, and have all of them teleport back in a few rounds later.

Sigh, I know my opening post was long but you should read it -_-. As I said teleportation is prohibited for all parties. As is summoning as is banishment effects as is planar shifting as is shadowwalking etc etc etc.

Also the "Stunned" was referring to the stun one receives after using Celerity. I'm not talking about what the Glabrezu does at all because I'm trying to not give him an action. Also the glabrezu is large enough to be easily spotted inside the freezing fog. About heart of water, yes I didn't know it was swift instead of free. I just use it a round before since it has round/lvl duration. If I come to melee rage then he has 0 concealment and that is what I say I'm doing.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

1. Usually its much easier for the DM to adjust the encounters to the party's power level, than the other way around.

2. The wizard has every right to play without optimizing for soloing every encounter. I don't understand why would you try to goad him into soloing everything :smallconfused:

3. If the DM knew the party would be split up (or was he expecting the paladin to go steal things?) and the battle would be harder than what it would otherwise be, then a CR of 12 is not just an EL of 12.

4 No a lvl 11 wizard can't solo easily a glabrezu. First of all if you lose initiative you are probably getting power word stunned. Also whats the point of Freezing fog if the demon has true seeing. Also you used 1 immediate and 2 swift actions. And even if you manage to drop his dex to 0 (and if we assume that the duration on shivering touch doesn't make it dispellable) he can reverse gravity you again and again to stop you from coup de gracing him. I can't see how your plan would work, at all.

[Red Rubber Band]

This has been an annoying thread to read. Way too many people either didn't read or didn't answer the first post.
Yes, I realise I've just posted and not answered the OP :P

[CombatOwl]

Sigh, I know my opening post was long but you should read it -_-. As I said teleportation is prohibited for all parties. As is summoning as is banishment effects as is planar shifting as is shadowwalking etc etc etc.

Also the "Stunned" was referring to the stun one receives after using Celerity. I'm not talking about what the Glabrezu does at all because I'm trying to not give him an action. Also the glabrezu is large enough to be easily spotted inside the freezing fog. About heart of water, yes I didn't know it was swift instead of free. I just use it a round before since it has round/lvl duration. If I come to melee rage then he has 0 concealment and that is what I say I'm doing.

There is no way to do all of that withiut giving him one action without a belt of battle, a cohort, or a contingent spell. You can give up the fly, give up the freezing fog, or give up the shivering touch if you want to cram it into one round. You still have to move into touch range, so in total you need two swifta, two moves, and three standard actions to do all that in one round. Celerity lets you spend your next rounds swift for an extra srandard, but you're still down swift, one move, and one standard. The glabrezu is going to get an action, and that action will probably be power word stun or unholy blight if teleport and summons are out.

Unless you're suggesting that short duration spella count as prebuffs? I'd see things with 10m/level or hour/level durations being reasonable assumptions, but round per level? Minute per level? Burning a spell every 11 minutes s is an odd choice for such a matchup. Do we get to assume you're out of level 3 spells by the time you get to the encounter?

As for visibility, as per the spell it has concealment. How much depends on your dms reading of the spell, but its definitely at least nornal 20% concealment. Glabrezus are only huge sized, which means it fits inside. Its stupid, but if even one square of the creature is in the fog it gets concealment. If its half in the fog, it gets total concealment. Because its a specific effect of the spell, not normal concealment from visual obstruction. In other words the specific wording of the spell trumps the general concealment rules.

This is also why solid fog slows the movement of the largest gianta and why grease can still trip kaijus. Its stupid, but so are a low of things in RAW.

[Xervous]

Okay, lets do this without celerity or contingencies...

assumption: neither the wizard nor the Glabrezu is prebuffed

Wizard with
14 dex
22 int + 4 circlet = 26
improved initiative
danger sense
sculpt spell
spell focus (conjuration)

Casting nerveskitter nets us a total of +11 to our initiative roll, the Glabrezu has a laughable +0 initiative bonus. We roll twice with danger sense so that gives us a 86.55% chance of winning initiative.

For our first spell, we cast a sculpted wall of stone in the spherical shape option centered on the Glabrezu. We apply all of our spin to this setting the DC for the save at 15 + 8 + 3 + 1 = 27. With the Glabrezu's piddly +8 reflex save, he only succeeds against this 10% of the time. Smack him with the fatespinner's L3 ability to force a reroll giving him a laughable 1% chance of success. Assuming Demons need to breathe, you've just won.

86.55% chance of winning initiative * 99% chance of spell success = 85.6845 % chance of success.

The above has been re-rendered in blue-ray vision due my obvious incompetent attempt.

[eggynack]

Couldn't the demon just break through the stone before he would run out of air? Glabrezu are huge, so I don't know how thick you could get a wall, they're strong, so it wouldn't take too long for them to break through said relatively thin wall, and they have high constitution, so it'd take awhile for them to run out of air. I don't know how long it'd be before the glabrezu would have to hold its breath, but even assuming that breath holding happens immediately, they could still go at it for awhile. 31 constitution represents a mod of +10, and assuming that the demon makes full use of their actions every round, that'd mean ten rounds before they'd even need to make a check. The wall could probably keep the glabrezu contained for a good amount of time, and that period would likely be high enough to allow the wizard to ensure success, but I'm doubtful that it'd make for an effective kill condition on its own.

[hymer]

Walls of stone only have hardness 8 and a break DC (at 3 inches) of 26. Nothing the Glabrezu (2 x 2d8+10 damage, up to +12 to that for PA, +10 str modifier) can't punch through pretty quick.


31 constitution represents a mod of +10, and assuming that the demon makes full use of their actions every round, that'd mean ten rounds before they'd even need to make a check.

My PHB allows you to hold your breath a number of rounds equal to your con score before making checks, half that if you're in combat. So it'd have over fifteen rounds to get out, which should be no problem.

[Xervous]

gah, pitiable early morning misread as I was going over the materials... I don't know what I'm doing half the time I post XD Signature has accounted for this for a while...

[eggynack]

My PHB allows you to hold your breath a number of rounds equal to your con score before making checks, half that if you're in combat. So it'd have over fifteen rounds to get out, which should be no problem.
I misread mod as score. Actually, I think the hold breath time is twice the score, or at least that's what swim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm) says, so you'd get 31 rounds to escape.

[hymer]

SRD and my printed books don't always agree. :smallsigh:

@ Xervous: We've all be there. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

SRD and my printed books don't always agree. :smallsigh:
Actually, it looks like the actual books contradict themselves. In the DMG, page 304, it says, "Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her constitution score." However, the PHB page 84 says, "You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score." So, I guess the lesson here is that the SRD is awesome, and that the books are oddly fallible.

[hymer]

Interesting. Well, at least it goes in the direction of the players. They would usually be pleasantly surprised. If it was the other way around, they'd be more likely to be annoyed at the DM if s/he chose to go with the DMG version.

[Xervous]

For the furthering of humor, here was my thought process at the time.

Wall of stone -> sculpt spell -> solid ball of stone

Mere seconds after this I wondered "now why did the lvl 20 wizard make a hollow sphere when he fought the lvl 20 fighter?"

...and two minutes later I hit Submit.

Though, even as it is, the wall of stone is still a plausible opening. I've been toying with scalding mud or other similar spells to work about trapping and immobilizing the Glabrezu as I originally intended.

[schoklat]

The OP might be a bit overboard with soloing a Glabrezu without server optimisation, but he certainly has a point about general performance and a Wizard's options.

(1) open with Nerveskitter contingent Celerity
Always a great move as it stays in your control when you want to trigger it and what you do then.

(2) Wall of Stone
Something every Wizard should have as option, even if just to retreat.
In this particular case we opt for a dome with a tiny hole on top (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igloo), making the most out of the no teleport restriction. (NB: A WoS can do that out of the box per spell description, and there is plenty "real" example.) Only having LOS/LOE to the ceiling makes options to retaliate minimal.

(3) drop Bad Stuff
I'm on my phone, so searching lists sucks. But there should be plenty of things that can make the Glabrezu's life very uncomfortable before it breaks out. Conjurations are a good start to look, surprise surprise...

(4) Break it!!
Ready an action to Shatter your WoS on top of it when it breaks through. More damage, and again more of its time wasted.

(5) Get your team in
Even if not dead, it should be severely weakened by now, with a whole team buffed and ready to jump it. If you want to help throw a Haste or conjure some kind of "Improved Alchemical Sonic" with (Minor?) Creation to help getting around the Mirror Images.

Not a 100% solo, but something rather easy and reliable available to every Wizard (player) who applies a least amount of thought.