Anyone familiar with the HERO System?

[rs2excelsior]

Hi all. I know this is a primarily D&D forum, but I was wondering if there was anyone who uses the HERO System here. I'm asking because I am completely new to RPGs in general, yet I recently got the MHI RPG which uses the HERO rules, and I'd like to try it, but I don't know anyone who plays these games in real life. (For those who don't know, the setting is that of the Monster Hunter International series of books by Larry Correia, set in the modern-day world around a private monster hunting company)

Any tips for a new player getting into the HERO system?

[Zavoniki]

Don't.

Anything HERO system can do, Mutants and Masterminds and Wild Talents can do with less rules and a better system. For that matter so can GURPS.

Its a 3d6 randomizer system with expansive power generation that lets you build any power you can imagine. It does this with a lot of math instead of clever game design however, hence why I suggest Mutants and Masterminds and Wild Talents.

[Jay R]

I love it. It's a powerful and flexible system that lets you do pretty much anything in a logical system that all works together.

The only weakness, for some people, is that during character creation (not during the game), some options require some very basic arithmetic, up through division.

My experience is that I'll usually have to do my own character sheet and one or two other players' sheets as well.

But if you are comfortable with basic arithmetic, or can use Excel, it's a great system.

[rs2excelsior]

I love it. It's a powerful and flexible system that lets you do pretty much anything in a logical system that all works together.

The only weakness, for some people, is that during character creation (not during the game), some options require some very basic arithmetic, up through division.

My experience is that I'll usually have to do my own character sheet and one or two other players' sheets as well.

But if you are comfortable with basic arithmetic, or can use Excel, it's a great system.

Yeah, I already pulled out excel when I was putting together a character. Mainly just fiddly math, especially when you change a stat and have to refigure it.

[Vamphyr]

Don't listen to naysayers, HERO is an amazing system that is super flexible and fun once you get it down.

I usually house rule out the speed chart and just run standard 6 second rounds based off an init roll like D&D.

HERO is also one of the easiest systems to build NPCs and monsters for (in my opinion) once you have the rules down, throwing together powers is no problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't.

Anything HERO system can do, Mutants and Masterminds and Wild Talents can do with less rules and a better system. For that matter so can GURPS.

Its a 3d6 randomizer system with expansive power generation that lets you build any power you can imagine. It does this with a lot of math instead of clever game design however, hence why I suggest Mutants and Masterminds and Wild Talents.
This one. I had a friend who knew HERO, and he was overjoyed when I showed him M&M. "It's just like HERO, except you can make a character in less than an hour." Literally every advantage people have named about HERO can be said about M&M. It's also free. (www.d20herosrd.com)

[Zavoniki]

This one. I had a friend who knew HERO, and he was overjoyed when I showed him M&M. "It's just like HERO, except you can make a character in less than an hour." Literally every advantage people have named about HERO can be said about M&M. It's also free. (www.d20herosrd.com)

This sums up the problem with HERO system. It's not that its a bad system or that it can't do what it says it does or that there are any glaring balance problems or something similar. It's that not one but two separate systems can do what it does better with less rules.

I shouldn't need to do unnecessary math to make a character. GURPS uses a lot of the same basic system trappings that HERO system does and yet the math is much simpler. I also shouldn't need a spread sheet to make a character. If it gets more complicated than DnD/Eclipse Phase then its too complicated. But these are all minor gripes compared to its glaring weakness which I will restate:

Other systems do exactly what it does, except better and simpler. Therefore there is no reason to use HERO system.

[skyth]

I'm a big fan of the Hero system. It's extremely flexible and can accomplish almost anything. However, it isn't all that well suited to low-power campaigns. It excels at super-heroic stuff.

Not sure why you would want to get rid of speed...It's one of the things that differentiate Hero system from other RPG's. It can be a little complicated if you're not as familiar with it, but I do like it.

[ngilop]

I think HEROs is a great system. I didn't find it any more or less confusing or time consuming that for example Mutants and Masterminds.

I guess if having to do slightly a bit more math is not your thing you can stay away ( to me the math form HEROs and Mutants and Masterminds is not any difference from 2nd ed D&D and 3rd ed D&D, but you still have people saying the 2nd ed D&D is confoundingly impossible with its math)

Either way you are going to be creating a character and going to take a while becuase hey, you are going to be looking at all the powers avaible on both systems ( i think the M&M srd is hella confusing though)

I do not think that Mutants and Masterminds has as much diversity and range as HEROs though that is just my opinion.

[The_Snark]

I tend to prefer Mutants and Masterminds to the HERO system. They offer similar benefits, but in addition to being a bit simpler, M&M has the concept of power level and power level limits. In HERO, there is no real limit to the amount of points you can dump into a single power, and few (if any) guidelines on how many points you should dump into a power. Whenever I make a character in HERO, I find myself wondering if they're too frail, or conversely if they're too tough. Is this attack too powerful? Should I tone it down and put the points elsewhere? Mutants and Masterminds answers this quandary by establishing a baseline power level. Characters should have X amount of toughness; anyone with a lower score is aware that they're on the fragile side, and anyone higher is incredibly tough (and in the case of PCs, will need to accept restrictions elsewhere to compensate). This makes it a lot easier for me to build characters, and I imagine it removes a lot of headaches for the GM as well.

That said? HERO's lack of limits can be a plus, if you want to play a game where characters are not necessarily going to be equal. Mutants and Masterminds doesn't really allow large gulfs in capability between characters (or at least, it strongly discourages them). HERO does.

In addition to that, I think HERO is a little better at making heroes feel mechanically different from one another. Like I said, M&M has a baseline power level for things like attack, damaging powers, and defense, and it's expected that most characters will meet these levels (or come close). So if you make Batman and Superman in the same group, they're actually going to have pretty similar Toughness saves. Batman's toughness comes from being really good at rolling with punches and minimizing blows, while Superman's toughness comes from being practically invincible, but in practice this won't make any difference except in a few edge cases*. They feel more or less the same in a fight. You can trade off points in one area for points in another (i.e. more accuracy but less damage), so maybe Batman is sporting Dodge +12 and Toughness +8 while Superman has the reverse - but a difference of a few points doesn't do all that much to make the characters feel truly different. The result is that characters start to all look awfully similar after a while; they'll have different utility powers and maybe some different attack options, but it'll all be loaded onto the same basic combat stats, with only minor variations.

*Batman will be much less tough when unable to move freely, while Superman probably paid extra points to make himself resistant to low-damage attacks.

Whereas in HERO... I haven't played it for a while, but my recollection is that Superman could be built to be able to shrug off lots and lots of damage, whereas Batman would most likely be a lot more fragile; he has to rely on not getting hit in the first place. In fact, maybe he's not any better at dodging than Superman - it's quite possible that he invested in stealth and equipment and lots of miscellaneous perks and skills rather than expensive combat powers, and will need to be really careful around superpowered enemies. The two characters would play very differently.

Or take superspeed. In M&M, this is represented by a really high movement speed, a better chance at acting first, a power that lets you accomplish noncombat actions faster than normal, and maybe some silly comic-book superspeed tricks... but you still only get one attack per round. Your attack is described as punching someone half-a-dozen times, as opposed to the powerhouse landing a single blow, but mechanically it isn't much different. In HERO, superspeed will mean you get to take lots more actions! This is a horrible balance headache, but it also feels a lot more like you're actually playing a character who moves and acts inhumanly fast.

Which is a good note to end on, I guess, I guess. The short version: M&M is simpler, easier to balance and easier to play, but HERO's complexity and potential lopsidedness has a certain charm.

Edit - M&M seems to have more players, at least in the communities I frequent. May or may not be a factor for you.

[SowZ]

This one. I had a friend who knew HERO, and he was overjoyed when I showed him M&M. "It's just like HERO, except you can make a character in less than an hour." Literally every advantage people have named about HERO can be said about M&M. It's also free. (www.d20herosrd.com)

I don't think that's true. I prefer the tick system in HERO, but the real reason I prefer HERO is that M&M has arbitrary hard caps on just about everything imaginable. HERO is degrees better at being open in making characters. Yes, it has more balance problems, but in M&M I constantly have to worry about which powers I buy since if I buy too many powers that boost one attribute, those boosts are wasted.

In fact, if I spent my points to bring my BAB to 10 at level 10, I can't get any of the powers that say, "+1 attack against X type of enemy."

And sometimes character building can turn into a race to bring as many of your attributes, (health, defense, attack, and saves,) to the maximum often making a group of characters that feel very much the same.

In HERO, I can min-max a lot more and create a character that is literally indestructible to any conceivable physical damage, but have no points for anything else so glaring weaknesses. M&M says, "No, very often all the tanks in the party will have the exact same health and defense." Also, you often can't effectively build a character with only one power that he really focuses on in &M without fluffy some of the other powers in ways that are really contrived.

This isn't to say M&M isn't a good system, or even cleaner than HERO, but the y should have come up with something more elegant than hard caps. Like make powers and such that increase Attack/Defense a lot more expensive but scale with level. So you could bring them up to crazy levels, but it would be expensive enough to min max that you would be naturally encouraged to spread out.

The lack of knowing how tough or how strong you should be in a given area at a given level is not a problem with the HERO system, but just a lack of a reference guide and it needs more sample characters.

[skyth]

In HERO, there is no real limit to the amount of points you can dump into a single power, and few (if any) guidelines on how many points you should dump into a power.

Not true. It's just explicitly left to the GM to decide. Every Champions game I've played in has an active point limit for powers (IE how powerful any given power can be) and a defense limit (How tough you can be). A limit on CV and Spd is also suggested.

[The_Snark]

Not true. It's just explicitly left to the GM to decide. Every Champions game I've played in has an active point limit for powers (IE how powerful any given power can be) and a defense limit (How tough you can be). A limit on CV and Spd is also suggested.

Oh? It's been a while since I played, so I may have forgotten that. I remember my GMs asking us to scale down certain powers and avoid buying too much Speed, but not any hard limits.

I think the point about guidelines stands, though. It's really hard for a newcomer to the system to know how much toughness/offensive power is appropriate, and even for an experienced player it's tricky because standards will vary from game to game. M&M's power level standardizes things, which has both upsides and downsides.


This isn't to say M&M isn't a good system, or even cleaner than HERO, but the y should have come up with something more elegant than hard caps. Like make powers and such that increase Attack/Defense a lot more expensive but scale with level. So you could bring them up to crazy levels, but it would be expensive enough to min max that you would be naturally encouraged to spread out.

Eh - I don't know that that would be a good idea; I don't see any point to offering the option and then punishing people for taking it. Your mention of powers not stacking confuses me a bit, because in the editions I've played there's only one power that grants bonuses to attack (Enhanced Trait). (Possibly you're using an older edition?) There are a few different sources of attack bonuses in the game, but you're not supposed to stack them all like you would to boost your attack bonus in D&D; they're present to give you options. You can use feats/advantages to focus on melee combat only, or specialize even further and buy skill with swords in particular, or go the opposite direction and make yourself good with any power or weapon you use.

I think it's just a difference in assumptions. M&M assumes that everyone has the same basic combat stats, with minor variation. They're differentiated by their powers: one can fly and shoot laser beams, while another can teleport and turn invisible, and a third controls minds and summons weak expendable minions. It works well, as long as you're willing to accept "everyone has the same basic combat stats."

That's a matter of personal taste, or sometimes circumstances. (I like it most of the time, but it occasionally gets boring, and for certain games I'd prefer more variation.)

[skyth]

Well, the GM is supposed to (Prior to character creation) let the players know the (hard) limits. There's actually a sheet that is provided as an example to fill out and give to the players. It perscribes the GM's limits in hard numbers for active points, speed, etc. Most campaigns I've dealt with have a max of 50 active points (so max of 10d6 attacks) and 30 defence. Typically stop powers are not allowed either without explicit allowance. (I did get allowance to have a cosmic power pool and it was fun for a bit until the GM made me change my character).

[skyth]

I will say that Hero system has a nice balance that is lacking in other games between the ability to avoid damage (Martial Artist) and mitigate damage (Tank).

It is also very much not an attrition based system like most RPG's (The D&D Hit Point/workday system). Most damage and resource used is gone by the next encounter.

[Knaight]

It's a decent system, provided that certain things matter to you and certain potential drawbacks don't.
Things which should matter:

Substantial mechanical differentiation between characters.
Detailed character capabilities in combat.
Lots of mechanical options.

Things you need to not mind:

Lots of simple math. None of it is difficult, but there is the matter of sheer volume.
Searching through long lists.
Oddness regarding equipment not really doing much if you don't spend character points on it.


I'd consider HERO at its strongest for superhero games and high fantasy, provided that combat is a major focus*. If you're planning on doing a game that focuses on relationships between characters and societies with an emphasis on personality over abilities, HERO is a terrible option. It's also a generic system which coexists with a few others, which is largely a matter of taste. You might want to take a cursory glance at GURPS, Fudge, Savage Worlds, and Fate Core, and see if you prefer any of them. Personally, I'd play GURPS, Fudge, or Fate Core over HERO for most things, though HERO beats out Savage Worlds handily.

*I'm not familiar with Monster Hunter International, but if the title is any indication this seems well within HERO's strong suit.

[Zavoniki]

All this discussion has strongly encouraged me to keep Wild Talents (http://www.arcdream.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5) as my go to superhero system.


It lets you make any power you want easily and quickly.
It's rules are simpler than both HERO and M$M(Though I don't think they are that much simpler than M$M and the basic concept of the ORE is harder to grasp than d20 and the GURPS HERO runs off of.)
It has a mechanical benefit that encourages roleplaying(Willpower and Passions and Loyalties)
The ORE is really cool, especially in combat(Though it does produce very lethal combat).
Archetypes, power sources, and permissions make for some very interesting character creation decisions and produce interesting characters and game effects.


I think though each system does have it strengths. My issue with HERO system is from unnecessary complexity, which is not always from math(actually if I remember correctly the math for Wild Talents power building is probably harder than the HERO system math). It's that in order to let you build everything HERO system made a lot of powers and gave a lot of options that can be applied to those powers and a lot of options that can be applied to any power. That creates a large number of options that can be hard to understand for someone just coming into the system or for someone trying to make a character.

[rs2excelsior]

Well, I played a quick game--three Hunters going into a warehouse full of 13 zombies. It started going pretty well once we started calling headshots, though before that (we weren't using the hit location table either) we started killing them more easily. I think it worked pretty well.

I had a couple of questions, though, for folks familiar with the system.
-What exactly is a 1/2d6? We used it as a roll where 1,2=1; 3,4=2; and 5,6=3.
-Does a hit location modifier apply before or after defenses? Would a 7-damage hit to the head (x2) damage against a 8 resistant PD take (7x2)-8=6 damage or (7-8)x2=0 damage?
-When using a hand to hand weapon, can you add strength to damage (same number of damage classes as your unarmed damage)? Is it automatic or do you need to succeed on a strength roll?
-Does normal running, shooting a gun, etc. use endurance?

[Vamphyr]

I would say 1/2d6 is just a d3, so you're right.

Defenses are always applied last when I run a game. So if the head is a 2x damage mod it would be (7x2)-8=6

I always add the strength damage mod to melee attacks automatically.

Not sure if there is a particular ruling for these since i'm away from book, but that's just how I've always run it.

[skyth]

I had a couple of questions, though, for folks familiar with the system.
-What exactly is a 1/2d6? We used it as a roll where 1,2=1; 3,4=2; and 5,6=3.

Yep. 1/2 d6 is 1d3. Remember, if this is a normal attack, the 2 and 3 indicate 1 body also.


-Does a hit location modifier apply before or after defenses? Would a 7-damage hit to the head (x2) damage against a 8 resistant PD take (7x2)-8=6 damage or (7-8)x2=0 damage?

Defences are applied after modifiers (Other than damage reduction which is applied last).


-When using a hand to hand weapon, can you add strength to damage (same number of damage classes as your unarmed damage)? Is it automatic or do you need to succeed on a strength roll?

Yes, up to a point. You can add up to the weapon's damage (Unless the weapon is bought with the Hand attack power). So a 3d6 club you can only add an additional 3d6 damage to even if you have 20 strength. Remember to modify for advantages. A weapon that is 3d6 armor piercing (a +1/2 advantage) needs 15 strength to get +2d6 more. Also, killing attacks are 1/3 the bonus (A sword that is 1d6 HKA needs a 15 strength to get another 1d6. 10 strength would turn it into a 1 1/2 d6 attack.)


-Does normal running, shooting a gun, etc. use endurance?

Yes. Every fraction of 5 hexes you move uses 1 endurance (Not modified for noncombat multiples, so if you noncombat move 10 hexes with a x2 multiplier, it only uses 1 endurance). I remember reading somewhere that making an attack uses at least 1 endurance, but I wasn't able to find that again.

[Jay R]

Does normal running, shooting a gun, etc. use endurance?

I strongly urge you to buy a few points of running with 0 END, as well as very basic versions of common powers. My general rule is that a character should be able to do all day what an ordinary person can do all day. So walking speed should be built with 0 END, and a brisk walk should cost as much END per turn as the character recovers per turn.

Ideally, the character can move during melee for tactical purposes without having to recover.

[rs2excelsior]

Useful stuff


Other useful stuff

Thanks, much appreciated. This is going to take a bit of getting used to (I've been a wargamer for a long time, but this has a different feel), but I think it's doable.