Class recommendation for Gold Dragon

[Xaroth]

I'm completely stumped as to what class I should make my Gold Dragon. Does anybody have any recommendations?

Concerning alignment requirements: My DM says that due to the background of the campaign, all alignments noted in races can be disregarded and any alignment can be chosen regardless of your race. My alignment hasn't been chosen yet, but I'm thinking of either Chaotic Good or True Neutral.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What age category will you be starting at, and what age category do you expect to reach?

Are you going to be using any of the sovereign archetypes in Dragons of Eberron p30-31? Can you use any of those sovereign archetypes?

What do you want this character to do, what should he be good at?

[Grayson01]

Black Dragon Shaman!

[Particle_Man]

Sorceror (or something that improves sorcerer caster level) comes to mind. I think Draconomicon has some classes specifically for dragons too.

[Emperor Tippy]

Depends a lot on what age its starting at and what you want to do.

A great wyrm, for example, already has maxed Sorcerer casting and can spell grab from the Cleric list so grabbing 8 levels of Factotum lets it shore up one of its weaknesses.

Fighter or feat Rogue gets more feats to spend.

Ur Priest picks up full cleric casting.

Ardent 2 with Psiotheurgist gets 9th level power manifesting.

Swordsage picks up maneuvers and on a great wyrm you start off qualifying for 9th level maneuvers. So dip one level of Warblade and Crusader as well (so that you can pick any maneuvers that you want).

[Xaroth]

What age category will you be starting at, and what age category do you expect to reach?

Are you going to be using any of the sovereign archetypes in Dragons of Eberron p30-31? Can you use any of those sovereign archetypes?

What do you want this character to do, what should he be good at?

1. Wyrmling, and I expect to reach Great Wyrm.

2. Unconfirmed, I'm talking with my DM about it now. If I'm able, I'll most likely pick the Wyrm of War archetype.

3. He should be good at wrecking people.

[FinnDarkblade]

I can't vouch for accuracy or quality as I've never used it myself but there is a Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204) for True Dragons.

[Xaroth]

Black Dragon Shaman!

I'm actually searching up on that now, thanks.


Sorceror (or something that improves sorcerer caster level) comes to mind. I think Draconomicon has some classes specifically for dragons too.

I'm trying to avoid normal classes and go for dragon ones, so I'm checking out everything Dragon right now. Thanks regardless.


Depends a lot on what age its starting at and what you want to do.

A great wyrm, for example, already has maxed Sorcerer casting and can spell grab from the Cleric list so grabbing 8 levels of Factotum lets it shore up one of its weaknesses.

Fighter or feat Rogue gets more feats to spend.

Ur Priest picks up full cleric casting.

Ardent 2 with Psiotheurgist gets 9th level power manifesting.

Swordsage picks up maneuvers and on a great wyrm you start off qualifying for 9th level maneuvers. So dip one level of Warblade and Crusader as well (so that you can pick any maneuvers that you want).

I'll consider it, thanks for the help.


I can't vouch for accuracy or quality as I've never used it myself but there is a Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204) for True Dragons.

This is actually incredibly helpful, thank you.

[Waker]

3. He should be good at wrecking people.
Can you narrow down "wrecking people" a bit more? Do you want to be a combat brute, a tactical fighter, chucking around explosions or something else?

[Jon Everyman]

CG Cleric/Warlock Eldritch Disciple, and pick up a paladin lackey through some kind of leadership specced for lance charges.

[Xervous]

If you're interested in casting, the aforementioned loredrake gets you +2 sorc casting. If dragonmag is on the table, then you could spring for the spellhoarding template (+0 LA, dragon magazine issue No. 313).

Spellhoarding gives you +2 int -4 wis, transfers your sorc casting to wizard casting, makes your spellbook a part of you, and a few other nice little things.

[Xaroth]

Can you narrow down "wrecking people" a bit more? Do you want to be a combat brute, a tactical fighter, chucking around explosions or something else?

Just dealing the maximum amount of damage possible.

[Waker]

Well, if big honking damage is your goal, I'd say a charge build is probably the best bet. Consider dipping into Barbarian for Pounce, grab Shocktrooper and perhaps take a look at War Hulk as a PrC. Bloodscaled Fury also has some potential.

[Broken Crown]

Here's an idea I had for a dragon build recently. You'll need to be at least a Young gold dragon to get the arcane casting prerequisite, though.

- Take Combat Casting and a Martial Weapon Proficiency as feats. Now you qualify for Abjurant Champion. (The Martial Weapon Proficiency probably won't be very useful other than as a prerequisite. On the other hand, as a gold dragon, you can assume humanoid form 3x/day, so knowing how to wield a weapon won't be completely pointless.)

- With 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, your caster level becomes equal to your base attack bonus. Since dragons and Abjurant Champions both have full BAB, this will be a lot.

- When you reach the Mature Adult age category, you can learn 7th level spells. As a gold dragon, this includes Cleric spells. Spam Holy Word; kill every non-Good creature with 21 or fewer hit dice.

- See if you can manage to get the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body on your spell list for extra fun. Your high caster level will give you six or more duplicates. They won't be able to cast spells, but they'll all still be dragons.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dip a single level of Barbarian with the Lion Spirit ACF in CC to get Pounce instead of Fast Movement, and trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). Start taking Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) after that, and get at least nine levels before going into something else like Abjurant Champion.

Go with the Passion's Flame archetype if possible and dip Spelldancer (MoF), which allows you to add Persistent Spell to your buffs with a Perform: Dance check. You could instead grab four levels of Incantatrix (PGtF) to add Persistent Spell to your buffs with a Spellcraft check, in which case I'd go with either Child of Eberron for more spell selection or Flame of the Forge, or do this if you can't use any archetype.

Get Ancestral Relic (BoED) and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) per this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4). Also get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for a ring, wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it with attacks or slight of hand. An item familiar is an intelligent item which means it's considered a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. You can use invest skill ranks to get a huge return on skill checks, especially Spellcraft if you go for Incantatrix, or UMD otherwise. You can put any spell you want on your Ancestral Relic Runestaff, and make a UMD check when you attune yourself to it when preparing spells for the day to be able to cast any of those spells as though you have them on your class spell list.

[WhamBamSam]

Here's an idea I had for a dragon build recently. You'll need to be at least a Young gold dragon to get the arcane casting prerequisite, though.

- Take Combat Casting and a Martial Weapon Proficiency as feats. Now you qualify for Abjurant Champion. (The Martial Weapon Proficiency probably won't be very useful other than as a prerequisite. On the other hand, as a gold dragon, you can assume humanoid form 3x/day, so knowing how to wield a weapon won't be completely pointless.)

- With 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, your caster level becomes equal to your base attack bonus. Since dragons and Abjurant Champions both have full BAB, this will be a lot.

- When you reach the Mature Adult age category, you can learn 7th level spells. As a gold dragon, this includes Cleric spells. Spam Holy Word; kill every non-Good creature with 21 or fewer hit dice.

- See if you can manage to get the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body on your spell list for extra fun. Your high caster level will give you six or more duplicates. They won't be able to cast spells, but they'll all still be dragons.Even if this is a tome game or something where a Mature Adult Gold Dragon Abjurant Champion 5 is just treated as a CR 24 instead of ECL 40ish a CL 31 Holy Word isn't all that impressive unless you're adding on other stuff to pump it.

One such thing, once you can cast 8th level spells is a (ideally heavily metamagiced, ie, Maximized Empowered Fell Animate Fell Drain Heightened Moillan) Permanent Emanation Greater Consumptive Field, which will bring your CL up by a factor of 1.5, deal damage at no action cost, and buff your Str by a silly amount.

The two ways I know offhand for a Dragon to get Body Outside Body are 1) get the Spellhoarding Dragon Psychosis to turn Sorc casting into Wizard casting then take Wyrm Wizard 2, or 2) use Ardent 2 and Psiotheurgist to get up to 9th level powers like Tippy suggested, then get it as a power known through Psychic Chirurgery and a StP Erudite.

How many class levels do you think you'll be fitting in on your epic dragon around all the age progression? I'm betting we'll be able to do better than Shock Trooper pouncing. Hell, at dragon speeds one level of Swordsage for Tornado Throw is probably better, especially with a Cloistered Cleric dip for Travel Devotion.

[Bullet06320]

I made an npc CN dire gold dragon that was an urpriest, that thought he was a god, actually convince one of the pc's to worship him and became a dragon shaman dedicated to him

[Broken Crown]

Even if this is a tome game or something where a Mature Adult Gold Dragon Abjurant Champion 5 is just treated as a CR 24 instead of ECL 40ish a CL 31 Holy Word isn't all that impressive unless you're adding on other stuff to pump it.
Very true. I was just throwing the basic build concept (turning all those dragon hit dice into caster levels) out there, since no one else had mentioned it yet; no effort at optimization was involved or intended. Holy Word was the first spell that came to mind that has an effect that scales with caster level without limit, so it seemed like a good example to use.


One such thing, once you can cast 8th level spells is a (ideally heavily metamagiced, ie, Maximized Empowered Fell Animate Fell Drain Heightened Moillan) Permanent Emanation Greater Consumptive Field, which will bring your CL up by a factor of 1.5, deal damage at no action cost, and buff your Str by a silly amount.
I figured there was a way to boost the CL to suitably gross levels. Thanks!


The two ways I know offhand for a Dragon to get Body Outside Body are 1) get the Spellhoarding Dragon Psychosis to turn Sorc casting into Wizard casting then take Wyrm Wizard 2, or 2) use Ardent 2 and Psiotheurgist to get up to 9th level powers like Tippy suggested, then get it as a power known through Psychic Chirurgery and a StP Erudite.
I like Method 1. Spellhoarding Dragon is from Dragon Magazine, isn't it? OP didn't mention whether it was allowed for this game, but definitely nice.

[Blackhawk748]

I second Lion Totem Barbar, then just follow standard charge builds and proceed to kill everything with your full attack. Also i recommend Fly By Attack for fly-by burnings

[WhamBamSam]

Very true. I was just throwing the basic build concept (turning all those dragon hit dice into caster levels) out there, since no one else had mentioned it yet; no effort at optimization was involved or intended. Holy Word was the first spell that came to mind that has an effect that scales with caster level without limit, so it seemed like a good example to use.


I figured there was a way to boost the CL to suitably gross levels. Thanks!Glad to help. The Permanent Emanation Greater Consumptive Field was actually something I'd been thinking about for a fear based dragon (either with 5 levels of Dread Witch or the Butterflies in Dragons of Faerun that eat immunity to fear). It was something like Permanent Emanation Fell Frighten Moillan Greater Consumptive Field+Frightful Presence+Fearsome Armor/Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered+Flyby Breath+Strafing Breath+Lingering Breath, so it'd take one move action to fly in, Cause Damage and Fear with the Consumptive Field, increase it another step with Frightful Presence, then demoralize as another move action with Fearsome Armor, so the enemy is cowering, and still get to cover the area in its breath weapon somewhere along the line. The opposition would be too terrified to move out of the fire/acid/whatever.

Also, note that Greater Consumptive Field is [Evil], so you might need to sanctify it or something to use it on a good aligned dragon. Though of course, that gets into the whole thing about sanctified [Evil] spells being [Good][Evil], as opposed to simply neutral. Then again, you only need to cast the spell once in your several thousand year lifetime anyway with Permanent Emanation, so maybe that one evil act won't be so bad in the grand scheme of things.

I hadn't thought of Abjurant Champion/Holy Word for older dragons though. I'll have to file that away on my mental list of "Dragons with class levels for when PCs get uppity" that I may or may not ever actually use.


I like Method 1. Spellhoarding Dragon is from Dragon Magazine, isn't it? OP didn't mention whether it was allowed for this game, but definitely nice.Yep. All the Dragon Psychoses are in Dragon Magazine 313. I personally would ban Spellhoarding and Riddled outside of a very high power game, but Great Wyrms with class levels really can't be anything other than high power.

Re: Pouncebarian Shock Troopers, how's this? In addition to the Whirl-Pounce Barbarian dip, take a level of Warblade at a sufficiently old age to get 9th level maneuvers and take Martial Study for a White Raven Maneuver somewhere along the line, so you can meet the prereqs for War Master's Charge. Use one of the two level dips I mentioned above to get Body Outside Body. Dip Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. Take a level of Swordsage for Tornado Throw.

Make n duplicates of yourself with Body Outside Body, and have the real you initiate War Master's Charge as a full-round action. All duplicates can now ubercharge the target of your charge along with you as an immediate action. You can still make a swift action and an immediate action, and your duplicates can still make a swift and a full-round action. Use your swift to move and position yourself with Travel Devotion while all your duplicates do the same, then cast Greater Celerity as an Immediate Action to gain another full round. You and all your duplicates initiate Tornado Throw as a full-round action. Each of you has already moved 3x your fly speed this turn, and can now move another 2x your flight speed, throwing enemies with trip checks which are literally unbeatable every 10 ft, dealing more damage based on how much you win the check by.

If you use the Ardent means of getting Body Outside Body, you can use Fission first, then have both you and your Fission Duplicate (which can cast and manifest) use Body Outside Body for 2n+2 dragons total, two of which can cast and manifest.

On Breath Weapons: To my knowledge, Quicken Breath was never errata'd from a free action to a swift. Throw on the Ravening Dragon Psychosis and you can use it at no real cost for three straight rounds.

[Blackhawk748]

I just pictured a Gold Dragon screaming "Shadow Doppelganger!" and then all of them bum rushing an army, hurling them everywhere lol

[Illarion]

If you are planning on getting to Great Wyrm, you probably won't have time for classes. A level 20 Gold Dragon is a Young Adult IIRC.