Elder Evil-killing soulknife

[Seer_of_Heart]

Emperor_Tippy I've made a soulknife build that can kill every single elder evil at once with a standard action when it is in range.

In accordance to this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16624115&postcount=88 post

Factotum 1/Soulknife 17

Strength is 59 (18 base, +12 half minotaur, +4 half ogre, +6 lolth touched, +6 item, +4 levels, +5 inherent, +4 War Paint of Primal Rage)
That gives you a carrying capacity of at least 100,000 with a belt of the wide earth letting you carry 25,000 lucky soul knives giving that many rerolls.

You have an attack bonus of +51 with max ranks in iaijutsu focus and buying a +30 item when you use the Iaijutsu master feat.

Have hank's energy bow enchanted with aptitude and keen (greater truedeath crystal) and take the lightning mace and roundabout kick feats. Use your rerolls until you get crits and you will get a ridiculous amount of attacks (barring ridiculous rolls) generated through the two feats. The extra attacks maintain the +51 attack bonus :smallbiggrin:.

You will do easily enough damage to punch through every elder evil's DR with a times 3 crit and I do not believe any elder evil is immune to crits with the truedeath crystal in use.

[ShurikVch]

How's you kill the Worm That Walks?
He's invulnerable!
Regeneration can't be bypassed with anything.
The only method I'm aware of is Trait Removal, but your PC is not a spellcaster...

[BloodyMartian]

I may be missing something here, but your strategy doesn't work.

Lightning Mace says only when you are wielding a light mace in each hand. Pretty sure that means you need 2 weapons not just the bow.

Lucky lets you re-roll a failed attack roll. I'm pretty sure a non-critical is not a failed attack.

Furthermore, not all of the elder evils are that high of a CR. I think some of the aspects mentioned for you to fight are only CR 16. If you wish to dismiss that and say you could easily kill the real thing, Pandorym's body is supposed to be a Sphere of Annihilation.

[MirddinEmris]

Besides, it's not only killing them, you have ot be able to reach them and survive, if i remember correctly. Like dealing with all this negative stuff on Atropus Moon, etc

[Seer_of_Heart]

Besides, it's not only killing them, you have ot be able to reach them and survive, if i remember correctly. Like dealing with all this negative stuff on Atropus Moon, etc

Buy some soulfire bracers for 36000 gp I believe.

Edit: I don't really feel like looking up all the special conditions but I'm pretty sure its trivial to bypass them all with WBL.


I may be missing something here, but your strategy doesn't work.

Lightning Mace says only when you are wielding a light mace in each hand. Pretty sure that means you need 2 weapons not just the bow.

Lucky lets you re-roll a failed attack roll. I'm pretty sure a non-critical is not a failed attack.

Furthermore, not all of the elder evils are that high of a CR. I think some of the aspects mentioned for you to fight are only CR 16. If you wish to dismiss that and say you could easily kill the real thing, Pandorym's body is supposed to be a Sphere of Annihilation.

You do have 2 weapons :smallyuk: you have thousands of them, you're only going to take your extra attacks with the bow though. Alright, fine I do claim it is capable of taking out the "aspect of" or whatever version of the elder evil is stated up that is fightable.


How's you kill the Worm That Walks?
He's invulnerable!
Regeneration can't be bypassed with anything.
The only method I'm aware of is Trait Removal, but your PC is not a spellcaster...
Knock him unconscious for a long period of and then just attack him with trollbane applied weapons until he dies.

[Vhaidara]

Does Half Minotaur, Half ogre, and Lolth Touched really come up to only +2 LA? Because Tippy's challenge was ECL 20, and you have 18 class levels.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Does Half Minotaur, Half ogre, and Lolth Touched really come up to only +2 LA? Because Tippy's challenge was ECL 20, and you have 18 class levels.

Yes, the dragon magazine half ogre is +0 if you are already large.

[Vhaidara]

And what is half mino from? Sounds fun.

[Seer_of_Heart]

And what is half mino from? Sounds fun.

Sorry, also dragon magazine. 313 to be specific the reason it gives so much strength is it applies the monster manual size changing stat adjustments to you.

[danzibr]

At first I thought this was going to be a fun thread about EE's killing Soulknives rather than an EE-killing Soulknife. Those hyphens are important sometimes.

[MirddinEmris]

Buy some soulfire bracers for 36000 gp I believe.

Edit: I don't really feel like looking up all the special conditions but I'm pretty sure its trivial to bypass them all with WBL.



If it would, it wouldn't be a challenge, would it?)

Soulfire doesn't protect against ability damage and drain, if i remember correctly.

Also, how are your saves? Because some EE like Father Llymic can affect you at the distance of 100 miles.

And at least Pandorym is immune to crits without it being from undead template


Whenever you roll a threat on an attack roll while using a light mace in each hand, you gain an additional attack at the same attack bonus.
Which means that you need light mace (or aptitude weapon) in each hand even if you have more than two. You need two hands to fire a bow.

[Big Fau]

You can't carry soulknives. Even if you are a 17th level Soulknife they disappear as soon as you release them unless you threw them (in which case they vanish after the attack is resolved).

More importantly, the Lucky quality only works if you are wielding the weapon. You'd have to have as many limbs as you have soulknives to get the rerolls.

[ShurikVch]

Knock him unconscious for a long period of and then just attack him with trollbane applied weapons until he dies.
Worm That Walks immune to poison

[Flickerdart]

The most recent half-ogre is +2 LA in Races of Destiny, and overrides the older versions.

[Seer_of_Heart]

The most recent half-ogre is +2 LA in Races of Destiny, and overrides the older versions.
You are right I suppose, I just like comboing half minotaur and half ogre but there is a glut of strength boosters so losing one isn't gonna ruin this.


You can't carry soulknives. Even if you are a 17th level Soulknife they disappear as soon as you release them unless you threw them (in which case they vanish after the attack is resolved).

More importantly, the Lucky quality only works if you are wielding the weapon. You'd have to have as many limbs as you have soulknives to get the rerolls.
I see no reason why you cannot carry soulknives. I've scoured the soulknife rules because I thought this was a cool idea and saw nothing counter to carrying multiple ones.
It does not say you can't generate more soul knives and it is a logical way that you can utilize the 17th level ability because the 17th level ability does not say anything about generating more spontaneously. You can wield multiple weapons in 1 hand unless there's a specific rule I did not know of. In which case my build failed I suppose.

Worm That Walks immune to poison
That's just evil WoTC. I mean you could just lug his body to a caster to get rid of his regen once he's knocked out.


If it would, it wouldn't be a challenge, would it?)

Soulfire doesn't protect against ability damage and drain, if i remember correctly.

Also, how are your saves? Because some EE like Father Llymic can affect you at the distance of 100 miles.

And at least Pandorym is immune to crits without it being from undead template


Which means that you need light mace (or aptitude weapon) in each hand even if you have more than two. You need two hands to fire a bow.
I don't see why it isn't a challenge, isn't that part of the point of wbl to protect you. They probably don't have anything going on too potent to worry about.

It doesn't matter about his 100 mile ability if I get the first action through a crafted contingent clerity with and I get wished in close enough to attack.

Gah Pandorym(how is he immune to crits? I missed it), I suppose you do generate 2 attacks for every crit which lets you get enough extra attacks to take out Pandorym if we're assuming a fight with every elder evil.

I can just carry a second aptitude weapon in my other hand and not do anything with it to qualify for lightning maces.

[danzibr]

The most recent half-ogre is +2 LA in Races of Destiny, and overrides the older versions.
But that's a race rather than a template.

[Big Fau]

I see no reason why you cannot carry soulknives. I've scoured the soulknife rules because I thought this was a cool idea and saw nothing counter to carrying multiple ones.
It does not say you can't generate more soul knives and it is a logical way that you can utilize the 17th level ability because the 17th level ability does not say anything about generating more spontaneously. You can wield multiple weapons in 1 hand unless there's a specific rule I did not know of. In which case my build failed I suppose.

The Soulknife's Mind Blade class feature explicitly states that mind blades vanish if they aren't either held or thrown:


The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below)

As for shaping more than one, the Shape Mind Blade class feature limits you to shaping 2 at most, by RAW:


Alternatively, a soulknife can split his mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand.

The reason Multiple Throw even works is because you can shape them as a free action between attacks. You'd have to drop your Mind Blade (a free action), shape it again (another free action), and pray that the DM allows you to reuse the Lucky property.

That's actually something that needs to be pointed out: Is each individual mind blade you shape treated as a different item? If not, the Lucky property only functions 1/day regardless of how many mind blades you shape.

However, as it's been pointed out, you can't use Lightning Mace. You have to be using a mace in each hand by RAW (or two Aptitude weapons), which means you can't use the Mind Blades at all (no free hands to shape your Mind Blades).

[MirddinEmris]

You are right I suppose, I just like comboing half minotaur and half ogre but there is a glut of strength boosters so losing one isn't gonna ruin this.


I see no reason why you cannot carry soulknives. I've scoured the soulknife rules because I thought this was a cool idea and saw nothing counter to carrying multiple ones.
It does not say you can't generate more soul knives and it is a logical way that you can utilize the 17th level ability because the 17th level ability does not say anything about generating more spontaneously. You can wield multiple weapons in 1 hand unless there's a specific rule I did not know of. In which case my build failed I suppose.

That's just evil WoTC. I mean you could just lug his body to a caster to get rid of his regen once he's knocked out.


I don't see why it isn't a challenge, isn't that part of the point of wbl to protect you. They probably don't have anything going on too potent to worry about.

It doesn't matter about his 100 mile ability if I get the first action through a crafted contingent clerity with and I get wished in close enough to attack.

Gah Pandorym(how is he immune to crits? I missed it), I suppose you do generate 2 attacks for every crit which lets you get enough extra attacks to take out Pandorym if we're assuming a fight with every elder evil.

I can just carry a second aptitude weapon in my other hand and not do anything with it to qualify for lightning maces.

They do have, seriously)

And it does matter about this ability, because it's passive, so you are affected by it even if you go first. There are lots of such abilities among the EE.

Worm that Walks also is immune to crits (and poison, and a lot of other stuff) and he is a spellcaster with Greater Invisibility and he is under effect of 20 CL Nondetection. How do you even fins him?

If you carry weapon in each hand, than you can't use the bow, which requires two hands to use, and lucky soulknives, though they don't work like that either way, as it has been pointed out.

You need to provide your complete build including spending your WBL so there wouldn't be any Schrodinger character effect.

[Seer_of_Heart]

The Soulknife's Mind Blade class feature explicitly states that mind blades vanish if they aren't either held or thrown:


I can hold all of them at once because the carrying capacity rules say nothing about weight distribution. Which means I can technically hold all of them in my hand, any sensible DM would probably ban holding a lot this is theoretical albeit weak theoretical.



The reason Multiple Throw even works is because you can shape them as a free action between attacks. You'd have to drop your Mind Blade (a free action), shape it again (another free action), and pray that the DM allows you to reuse the Lucky property.

But it says you can only shape a mind blade once per round which means you're stuck with 2 thrown blades at once under your interpretation.


Free Draw (Su)
At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however.


It makes no logical sense to manifest a weapon that is used up (I believe weapons and things with limited use abilities are good to go as soon as you get them) and there is no reference within the class that says you summon a weapon with the same status as a previous one, it says that all of them have the same enhancements. (except the split blade they have a -1 to enhancement bonus)




As for shaping more than one, the Shape Mind Blade class feature limits you to shaping 2 at most, by RAW:


The class feature never says you cannot shape more than 2, it says you may split your mind blade into 2 weaker ones as a full round action (there is almost no situation where this would be useful though, just when you're in an area where psionics is canceled and you can't easily make that save). That interpretation also prevents you from using the level 17 ability unless you want to use your unlimited resummon interpretation which contradicts a specific class feature.



That's actually something that needs to be pointed out: Is each individual mind blade you shape treated as a different item? If not, the Lucky property only functions 1/day regardless of how many mind blades you shape.

However, as it's been pointed out, you can't use Lightning Mace. You have to be using a mace in each hand by RAW (or two Aptitude weapons), which means you can't use the Mind Blades at all (no free hands to shape your Mind Blades).
Why would you materialize a used up mind blade it says nothing about how they are exactly the same it only says that you have the same enhancements unless you go and switch them out. And I've said you can carry a second aptitude weapon or just a light mace in another hand because you have the extra weight and wbl to do so.

[BloodyMartian]

From the SRD:
Most projectile weapons require two hands to use...
You need at least two hands to use a bow...
wield:
hold and use (first definition to pop up on Google)

If your two hands are wielding the bow you cannot wield a weapon in each hand. If you cannot wield a weapon in each hand you cannot activate the Lightning Mace feat. If you can't activate the feat you lose out on all the attacks critical threats would generate.


Lucky:
Once per day, the wielder can reroll a failed attack roll...

Lucky can only be activated if you are wielding the weapon and only on a failed attack. Thanks to your +51 bonus to hit you and True Death Crystal you aren't missing anything in the Elder Evils book. Thanks to the bow you are not wielding the mind blades.


Mind Blade:
...a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below)

grip:
take and keep a firm hold of; grasp tightly(again first definition to pop up on Google)

Psychic Strike:
Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses)

Throw Mind Blade:
Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mind blade then dissipates.

Free Draw:
He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however.

Shape Mind Blade:
As a fullround action, he can change his mind blade to ...
Alternatively, a soulknife can split his mind blade into two identical short swords...

Multiple Throw:
At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make.

All this comes together to say you only get at most 2 blades (2 short swords) if you take a full round action and only while they are in your hands. Multiple Throw specifically says you get to throw a blade for each melee attack you would have received, but mentions nothing about you being left armed. This doesn't mention eating up any of your actions to form and throw, so in theory you can use it to make all your attacks as ranged attacks with your mind blade and then form 1 as a free action at the end of your turn.
I didn't see anything that says you only have 1 instance a mind blade that you call over and over, so you could in theory form a new Lucky weapon every round to ensuring you always have a Lucky re-roll waiting for you.

[Seer_of_Heart]

From the SRD:
Most projectile weapons require two hands to use...
You need at least two hands to use a bow...
wield:
hold and use (first definition to pop up on Google)

If your two hands are wielding the bow you cannot wield a weapon in each hand. If you cannot wield a weapon in each hand you cannot activate the Lightning Mace feat. If you can't activate the feat you lose out on all the attacks critical threats would generate.


If you are so insistent on this even though RAW says nothing about wielding multiple weapons stick the properties of Hank's energy bow onto an aptitude hand crossbow and wear a aptitude gauntlet or something on the other hand.


Lucky:
Once per day, the wielder can reroll a failed attack roll...

Lucky can only be activated if you are wielding the weapon and only on a failed attack. Thanks to your +51 bonus to hit you and True Death Crystal you aren't missing anything in the Elder Evils book. Thanks to the bow you are not wielding the mind blades.

You do have a point here, I suppose I will invest absolutely nothing in increasing my To-Hit and take power critical enough times to guarantee a critical hit instead.



Mind Blade:
...a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below)

grip:
take and keep a firm hold of; grasp tightly(again first definition to pop up on Google)

Psychic Strike:
Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses)

Throw Mind Blade:
Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mind blade then dissipates.

Free Draw:
He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however.


Multiple Throw:
At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make.

All this comes together to say you only get at most 2 blades (2 short swords) if you take a full round action and only while they are in your hands. Multiple Throw specifically says you get to throw a blade for each melee attack you would have received, but mentions nothing about you being left armed. This doesn't mention eating up any of your actions to form and throw, so in theory you can use it to make all your attacks as ranged attacks with your mind blade and then form 1 as a free action at the end of your turn.

I'm not sure I understand what your point is. Even though it makes absolutely no logical sense there is nothing preventing me from gripping thousands of mindblades by RAW if I can carry them(barring a rule I don't know about). There also really is nothing saying I cannot manifest multiple ones because I don't believe there are any limitations other than common sense about holding them. I'm also not seeing how multiple throw works if you are limited to having 2 mind blades out at once are you saying the free mind blade throws are.



I didn't see anything that says you only have 1 instance a mind blade that you call over and over, so you could in theory form a new Lucky weapon every round to ensuring you always have a Lucky re-roll waiting for you.
Yeah, that seems like a practical use for the lucky enchantment on a soulknife.

I am going to write out a second build which in my opinion is much worse than the original one because it relies less on soulknife.