Complementing a party

[Smorgonoffz]

After a long time of procrastination the D&D Campaign is done, so that means we're going to play!!!!!!!!!.

Since it's going to be a campaign with a decent of optimization( i never played in one, just low powered ones) we decided on a decent set up:

Fighter/Warrior( i always forgot what's the npc class)
Barbarian
Necromancer(summoning undead specialist)
Cleric/Archivist (master deemed healer necessary)

Warlock: Me

Since it's my first time playing a warlock i wanted to build a debuffer/battlefield control character instead of a blastlock, is it possible?.

Since it's going to be a long campaign 1-20:
1) which feats should i take?
2) Should i multiclass?
3) which invocations are best suited for the role?.

Ps: i read the handbook, but i couldn't make a build.

[HalfQuart]

Battlefield Control is a pretty hard role for a Warlock starting at 1st level, since the good control options don't kick in until kind of late.

Wall of Gloom can be sort of effective as a Lesser invocation -- note that you have to decide if you're using the PHB or SpC version of the spell -- but it's not great at the level you get it and you're probably better off UMDing to get better control effects and take a better Lesser invocation.

Chilling Tentacles is great, but you won't get it until at least 11th level.

Debuffing suffers similarly. You're probably looking at Frightful blast at low levels until you get Curse of Despair at 6th level. The Curse requires you to be able to make a touch attack, so you're looking at being in melee, so make sure you Con is pretty high. Or you could go the Dispelling route, which in certain circumstances can provide potent debuffing.

I think you'll end up having to focus on either party face or damage at low levels, then evolving into a debuffer/controller at higher levels.

[Smorgonoffz]

thanks.

Would a glaivelock/debuffer build possible?

which feats woul be more useful generic feats or the weapon focus ones?

Any prc that might help except hellfire warlock?

[Keldrin]

I like to say "good job, guys, well done!".


.... What?

[Greenish]

Fighter/Warrior( i always forgot what's the npc class)They both are. :smalltongue:


which feats woul be more useful generic feats or the weapon focus ones?Generic.


.... What?Would work better had OP misspelled the title.

[Smorgonoffz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smorgonoffz View Post
Fighter/Warrior( i always forgot what's the npc class)
They both are.

I see what you did there XD




Quote:
Originally Posted by Smorgonoffz View Post
Fighter/Warrior( i always forgot what's the npc class)
They both are.


Also there.


well about feats, initially i wanted to take the mage slayer ones..........bu then i saw the side effects.

As genric feats, what are do and don'ts.

[Keldrin]

They both are. :smalltongue:

Generic.

Would work better had OP misspelled the title.

Anyone ever say , you veer to the literal? :smallsmile:

[HalfQuart]

Would a glaivelock/debuffer build possible?
Yeah, you can combine Eldritch Glaive with essences -- like Frightful Blast -- to both do damage and add a status effect. You can stack that with something like Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), or use Intimidate with Imperious Command (DotU) or other fear-based stuff. If you want to go that route, check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0). You have to be careful putting too much into fear effects since at higher levels a LOT of stuff will be outright immune (undead, constructs, oozes, plants, vermin, many swarms, and anything with immunity to mind-affecting effects) and you won't qualify for Dread Witch (to get fear penetration) as a Warlock.

For PrCs you could combine with Cleric and then go into Eldritch Disciple and use DMM to persist stuff. The common approach is Warlock 1/Cleric 4 (or Ur-Priest of evil is ok or alignment restrictions aren't enforced).

Or you can dip into Chameleon for some added flexibility. The floating feat can be pretty awesome with Extra Invocation or Imbue Item.

There's really a lot of different ways you can take Warlock, but to get to a moderate level of optimization takes a bit of work, especially if you take Hellfire Warlock out of the equation.

To totally switch gears on you, this would be a pretty good party to play a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration -- you'd have lots of melee types to buff, especially if you take Requiem (LM) so you can buff the Necromancer's undead too.

[Smorgonoffz]

well bard with dragonfire inspiration is worth checking.

Anyway here is my invocation/ feat progression, any comment to maximize is welcome

Feats:

Human: Ability Focus
1) warlock: Mortalbane
3)improved initiative
6)Weapon Finesse
9)
12)Quicken Spell-Like Ability
15)
18)


No other feats comes to mind, Any idea on how to get mindsight, especially the telepathy part.


About blasts do i have to choose between blast shape and an invocation or i get both?

EX: eldritch glaive OR summon swarm?

Invocations:

1ST) Baleful Utterance
2) Eldritch Glaive (DrM, active)
3) Entropic Warding
6)Sudden Swarm
8)The Dead Walk
10)Vitriolic Blast
11)Fell Flight

[HalfQuart]

No other feats comes to mind, Any idea on how to get mindsight, especially the telepathy part.
The most common way is to take the Charm lesser invocation (at 6+) and then dip into Mindbender to get Telepathy, then take the Mindsight feat at level 9.


About blasts do i have to choose between blast shape and an invocation or i get both?
Not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if at a given level do you learn both a new invocation and blast shape, or only one? At each level that you learn a new invocation (1, 2, 4, 6, etc) you can choose to learn 1 new blast shape, invocation, OR an "other invocation".

Or are you asking what you can combine together in a single action? You can use both a single essence and a single blast shape on an eldritch blast, but you can't combine an eldritch blast with an "other invocation" -- so no activating Curse of Despair when you hit with Eldritch Glaive.


EX: eldritch glaive OR summon swarm?
I don't generally care for Summon Swarm, but The New Warlock Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252715) suggests taking Summon Swarm at level 1 since it does an automatic 1d6 damage, then swapping it out when you level up.



Invocations:

1ST) Baleful Utterance
2) Eldritch Glaive (DrM, active)
3) Entropic Warding
6)Sudden Swarm
8)The Dead Walk
10)Vitriolic Blast
11)Fell Flight
I think Entropic warding is best when you're a traditional blastlock shooting from range -- if you're using Eldritch Glaive you're going to be up close and personal so it is unlikely to get as much use. I find Sudden Swarm to be too situational -- what if you're not the one that kills the bad guy? What if you're fighting a solo? I'd say at level 6 take Fell Flight, Walk Unseen, Flee The Scene, or The Dead Walk, then if you want Mindbender at 9 take Charm at level 8. Make sure The Dead Walk will synergize well with your Necromancer and not step on any toes, so to speak.

[Smorgonoffz]

Not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if at a given level do you learn both a new invocation and blast shape, or only one? At each level that you learn a new invocation (1, 2, 4, 6, etc) you can choose to learn 1 new blast shape, invocation, OR an "other invocation".

This was what i meant :-)


The most common way is to take the Charm lesser invocation (at 6+) and then dip into Mindbender to get Telepathy, then take the Mindsight feat at level 9.


won't this hurt the pc damage/debuff in the long run?


I don't generally care for Summon Swarm, but The New Warlock Handbook suggests taking Summon Swarm at level 1 since it does an automatic 1d6 damage, then swapping it out when you level up.


i misread the guide, the correct power is Sudden Swarm.


New feats order :

Human: Ability Focus
1) warlock: Mortalbane
3)Weapon Finesse
6)Extra Invocation
9) Mindsight
12)Quicken Spell-Like Ability
15)Infernal Adept
18)Extra Invocation(filler)

New invocations order:

1) Baleful Utterance
2) Eldritch Glaive (DrM, active)
3) Fell Flight
6)Sudden Swarm
8)Charm
10)Vitriolic Blast
13)Chilling Tentacles
15)
16)
18)
20)


Anyway for feats and invocations i'm using D&D tools, i'd like to know if its broken, i think it's giving more invocations than it should.

[Menzath]

Dndtools is not broken, but it is lumping in draconic invocations from dragonfire adept as well without telling which class they belong to.
Or that's what I would say but the section for invocations is not up at all on dndtools. There is the WotC invocations list, which has the same issue.

Anyways Summon swarm is A good one to get and replace after level 2.
For Debuff dread seizure is nice Vs any non-melee, though doing it to melee in a surprise round can help, I like devils sight, Darkness, and earthen grasp.
Earthen grasp does have limited usage, But for what is does at that level is pretty awesome. Stony is the better and easier to use version at higher levels, but at higher levels you have Better Crowd Control.
Darkness is only useful with devils sight, and still tends to negate your parties usefulness in those situations, breath of the night could be a better more party friendly option.(miasmic cloud is a trick, never take it unless you play solo)
Baleful Utterance is a must. You can target an opponents weapon, as well as any other object in your way, like pesky locks.
Once you hit Lesser better options open up.
Fell flight so you can actually See the entire battlefield and nice mobility.
Dread seizure as mentioned, and weighty utterance are okay ones to get. Wall of gloom, not so. stops working on anything over 6HD, also has the Darkness, Fear, and mind affecting descriptors making it easily negated/countered. Relentless dispelling is also a Good one to get, who can complain about free dispel magic, with another being cast automatically in the next round?
Greater is where it gets, well great. Wall of perilous flame and chilling tentacles means being grappled by giant "waving members"(quoted from PH) while in a wall of fire, half of the damage from the wall being " super natural power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire".
That's a pretty good win button.
As for dark... Impenetrable Barrier. A wall with limited ways of breaking/bypassing, that you can re-make at will. If destroyed you take 1d10. So with a wand of vigor you can block just about anything all day long. And it doubles to make bridges and bypass pressure plates for the party!

[HalfQuart]

won't this hurt the pc damage/debuff in the long run?
Well, Charm isn't the greatest invocation, but it can actually be pretty good, especially with Mindbender's Telepathy. Charm is based on Charm Monster, and not Charm Person, so it stays useful as you level up, but it is Mind-Affecting, and there's a LOT that is immune at higher levels... Generally one of the other drawbacks is that Charm is "language-dependent", but with Telepathy you can communicate with any creature that has a language, so you should be able to mostly get around that restriction. Might want to run it by your DM ahead of time, but it seems pretty clear to me.

But 100' radius Mindsight is broken-good. I recommend nerfing it to line-of-sight, so you can't use it through walls, doors, around corners, etc, as seems to be the generally accepted interpretation of the RAW (it's a bit vague). It's still really good like that, but not as game breaking. I think it's worth it for most Warlocks if you can swing the skill and alignment requirements (the closest to Good you can play is Chaotic Neutral).

[Smorgonoffz]

As for dark... Impenetrable Barrier. A wall with limited ways of breaking/bypassing, that you can re-make at will. If destroyed you take 1d10. So with a wand of vigor you can block just about anything all day long. And it doubles to make bridges and bypass pressure plates for the party!

nice use of a warlock power.


Well charm is a dip for the greater good XD

[Smorgonoffz]

bumpity bump

[Coidzor]

Well, you might wanna share (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710)these with the group, considering the DM insisted you need a dedicated (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6656)healer.