Non magical Ventriloquism in 3.5

[Talionis]

Is there a non magical way to get Ventriloquism? I was thinking perform puppeteer or just ventriloquism? Non optimized campaign I'm taking Necrocarnum Circlet and open Crown chakra on a Swordsage to get a half character level Necrocarnum Zombie and I want the zombies to be able to talk for the character.

[Dalebert]

I think that might fall under a perform skill. Not sure if it would be a very specific perform skill or maybe be covered under oratory or something else.

[Talionis]

I think that might fall under a perform skill. Not sure if it would be a very specific perform skill or maybe be covered under oratory or something else.

I'm sure it's useful for a lot of things but the spell Ventriloquism seems over priced at second level. I'd expected it to be a can't rip or covered under prestidigation.

I don't need it to be perfect though. I just need a little misdirection that is non magical so I can use it for long periods of time. Since non magical people in real life have the skill I figure it should be covered under skills.

[Aquillion]

I would argue Bluff, instead, since it's essentially deceptive communication. Bluff is also used for delivering secret messages, which is very close to ventriloquism. Certainly throwing your voice as a distraction is Bluff (distractions are one of the things the skill does), and tricking someone about who is speaking or where a sound is coming from ultimately seems like it should be, too (it's telling a convincing lie, even if you're not using words to do so in the conventional sense.)

If I wanted to be really strict in terms of definitions: You use Bluff if you want to fool someone with your ventriloquism, while you use Perform if you want to entertain people. (A Perform-based ventriloquist probably isn't trying to be flawless so much as they are entertaining, whereas a Bluff-based ventriloquist will be good at eg. distracting people or deceiving someone about what voice they're hearing and where it's coming from, but they won't know how to keep up a patter that would let them entertain a crowd and earn money with this skill.)

It's the difference between, say, having Perform: Oratory and Diplomacy. Both of them can give a good speech, but the master of Oratory is good at delivering it in an entertaining manner, while the master of diplomacy is better at actually convincing people.

[Dalebert]

Since non magical people in real life have the skill I figure it should be covered under skills.

Yes, but the spell does more than the IRL skill. The spell actually causes your voice to originate from somewhere else. The IRL skill is more a trick of perception. You move a puppet's mouth and make words without moving your own mouth so it seems like the puppet is talking. It's affectionately referred to as "throwing your voice" but you aren't actually doing that.

I agree that it seems too high a level though. Ghost sound should do basically the same thing (not prestidigitation) and it's lvl zero. If you're in PF, the illusion version of the Cloak of the Hedge Mage will give you unlimited access to ghost sound.

[Psyren]

I would make it a complex skill check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) using both Perform: Oratory and Bluff. But that would be a houserule though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm pretty sure that exists in a book somewhere. I can't remember which one though.

[Talionis]

I would make it a complex skill check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) using both Perform: Oratory and Bluff. But that would be a houserule though.

That is more what I was thinking. It's slightly more valuable than a normal skill but not really worth a feat or spell.

Is Skill Trick more appropriate?

[Talionis]

I'm pretty sure that exists in a book somewhere. I can't remember which one though.

I've read most of 3.5 and I can't remember it, but I'd rather have a book to point to if there is one.

[Dalebert]

I would argue Bluff, instead, since it's essentially deceptive communication.

That makes sense.

[Talionis]

If I can't find a book for it, I'm leaning towards requiring a perform oratory check followed by an opposed bluff check to the opponents sense motive?

[Slipperychicken]

I would probably ask a player to spend at least one skill point in Perform (Ventriloquism). Then the player can roll Bluff (opposed by Sense Motive, of course) for how convincing it is, and Perform(Ventriloquism) for how entertaining it is.

Perform(Ventriloquism) would be a trained-only skill in my opinion, so you couldn't acheive a DC beyond 10, in either deception or entertainment functions, without at least one rank in it.

[Talderas]

A complex skill check is only necessary if the act of ventriloquism is intended to perform one of the tasks covered by the bluff skill.

Since ventriloquism is a legitimate performance by which a character can make money the character should be able to perform ventriloquism with just a Perform check.

In the case of using ventriloquism beyond the more simplistic options, you would make a complex skill check involving both Perform (Ventriloquism) and Bluff. You would use Perform (Ventrilquism) opposed by Listen or Sense Motive in order to check if the viewer believe the voice is originating from where it's supposed to and then Bluff vs Sense Motive for whether or not the specific thing you're bluffing about is believed.