Melee Mage Slayer

[tricktroller]

Ok folks, so I wan't to make a melee based mage killer that is not a full caster. I'd prefer not ot be a caster at all and use feats like, pierce magical concealment/protection etc.

Things I thought about.

Having natural flight and being a walking dead magic zone/AMF and then just snuggle up to enemy casters.

Be a swordsman who's skill is so great he can slip his sword between magical protections.

Monk with VOP as well, The Anti Magic Monk.

How would you guys do it?

[Big Fau]

Irony: VoP's benefits are Supernatural, thus don't function in an AMF. Monk is also really bad for VoP in general, and non-caster Mage Slayers (despite the feat's name) generally have a hard time actually delivering.

Your best bet is to build a Warblade with some high-levels of optimization and take the Mage Slayer feat tree.

[holywhippet]

I'd be looking at something like a monk/assassin. Cast wraithstrike before attacking a caster so that any AC boosting spells or armor they have protecting them doesn't help them. A monk's flurry of blows means a lot of attacks and wraithstrike means they will most likely hit. Use poisons that can damage casting stats like intelligence, wisdom and charisma. Remember that you need to have at least 10 + spell level to cast a spell so dropping an enemies casting stat might lock them out of many of their spells.

You will want some way of seeing past illusions, a scout's headband would be helpful. If the spell caster is flying you'll also want some posion lader ranged weapons. Shuriken can be flurried by a monk I think but really you want to be able to reach them in melee so you want a potion or magical item that gives you flight.

[Codyage]

Shintao Monk from OA gains two nice abilities.

Great Silence, which is a gaze attack that stops the person from speaking, and Kukan-Do which is a gaze that can stop you and the opponent from using spells, spell-like abilities, and Supernatural abilities.

Also, Pressure Point Strike from Dragon Magazine 355, nets you an ability similar to Dispel Magic.

If you want more anti magic stuff, I would suggest Occult Slayer. Mind Blank, extra damage with bonded weapon, bonuses to save, and double damage if you ready an action to break their casting.

[tricktroller]

Well in all honesty a long time ago I had experimented with an illumian gish that would take them both but no one seemed keen on the idea of a gish with full casting even after taking mageslayer and pierced magical protection.

[Big Fau]

Well in all honesty a long time ago I had experimented with an illumian gish that would take them both but no one seemed keen on the idea of a gish with full casting even after taking mageslayer and pierced magical protection.

The thing about a Gish Mage Slayer is that you don't use more than Mage Slayer itself (with Practiced Spellcaster to offset the CL penalty). You have the ability to Dispel their buffs, so you don't care about Pierce Magical Protection as much as you care about their ability to cast spells defensively (although you still need to deal with the 5ft step rule and Abrupt Jaunt in some cases).

[Flickerdart]

Ok folks, so I wan't to make a melee based mage killer that is not a full caster. I'd prefer not ot be a caster at all and use feats like, pierce magical concealment/protection etc.

Things I thought about.

Having natural flight and being a walking dead magic zone/AMF and then just snuggle up to enemy casters.

Be a swordsman who's skill is so great he can slip his sword between magical protections.

Monk with VOP as well, The Anti Magic Monk.

How would you guys do it?
The issues here are basically these:

You have to locate a mage that you want to slay, while having no access to divination
You have to close in with the mage, without him noticing you (this also means you need to be able to match the speed of his travel methods - teleport or phantom steed make that hard)
You have to get around the various foresights and contingencies and such to make sure you go first
You have to hit and kill him in one shot because you will not get a second

The "ideas" you've listed can't actually manage any of these steps.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pierce Magical Protection is completely unnecessary. Wraithstrike allows you to ignore armor and shield bonuses even from spells, and you can put it in a wand chamber of your weapon and activate it when needed, or just persist it.

[holywhippet]

Pierce Magical Protection is completely unnecessary. Wraithstrike allows you to ignore armor and shield bonuses even from spells, and you can put it in a wand chamber of your weapon and activate it when needed, or just persist it.

Persisting that spell isn't so easy, you'd need a level 8 spell slot depending on class and feats. Divine metamagic would be tricky since it's an arcane spell and DMM is only supposed to work on divine spell post errata. There are ways around it but that means even more feats. Plus the OP said they don't want to be a full caster which is what you'd need to be to pull off DMM.

The one flaw of wraithstrike is it doesn't bypass magically created DR like stoneskin.

[morkendi]

Whisper gnome with mage slayer feats. They can silence. If flaws allowed, I would do cobra strike monk 2/ fighter 4 for the feats/ dervish maybe. This let's you keep moving and attacking, but requires s higher cha as well. You need to fit versatile unarmed strike to make your martial strikes count as slashing, so very feat intensive. It is a very monk like feel though and works with vop well.

[Flickerdart]

Whisper gnome with mage slayer feats. They can silence. If flaws allowed, I would do cobra strike monk 2/ fighter 4 for the feats/ dervish maybe. This let's you keep moving and attacking, but requires s higher cha as well. You need to fit versatile unarmed strike to make your martial strikes count as slashing, so very feat intensive. It is a very monk like feel though and works with vop well.
Why would you want to move and attack? The entire point of a melee mage slayer is to keep close to them so they can't escape or cast as easily as normal.

[holywhippet]

Why would you want to move and attack? The entire point of a melee mage slayer is to keep close to them so they can't escape or cast as easily as normal.

If you were a spell caster and someone got up in your face with the business end of a stabbing implement, would you just stand there? Or would you order goon/minions/summoned creatures to cover you while you got some distance between you and your attacker?

[Flickerdart]

If you were a spell caster and someone got up in your face with the business end of a stabbing implement, would you just stand there? Or would you order goon/minions/summoned creatures to cover you while you got some distance between you and your attacker?
If the mage slayer was doing his job properly instead of faffing about with monk levels, I would be dead. If given a chance to respond, dimension door (preceded by a quickened cantrip to pull your AoO) and now I'm a thousand feet in the air and what is your running around going to accomplish now?

If you're not going to finish the job, your main priority is to use stuff like tripping or grapple to ensure that the caster doesn't get to escape, not let him leave and try to follow. Calling minions to cover an escape is the worst plan, and no caster with mental scores good enough to cast their spells would follow it.

[holywhippet]

You can still cast dimension door when prone or being grappled since it is verbal only. A mage slayer needs to be able to move through the battle field to chase down their target unless they can guarantee their target won't be able to move or cast spells.

[Uncle Pine]

I know I mentioned it quite a lot of times recently and I'm usually against using the same trick twice when there are other options, but you could make an interesting "mundane" mage slayer by selecting Leadership as one of the feats of your melee mage slayer of choice and taking a tibbit with wizard and incantatrix levels as your cohort. Make him sit on your shoulder 24/24 and cast every morning a persistent selective AMF with either you or himself "excluded" from the AMF and you're done.
The only two drawbacks would be that you wouldn't technically end with a "melee mage slayer" but with a "couple of mage slayers, one of which is a BSF with better than average support" and that a tibbit cohort is mechanically inferior to a hatchling phaerrim cohort, but you'll probably end using choosing the tibbit because a Van Helsing-esque mage slayer with a radiating black cat on his shoulder is friggin awesome. After all, maybe the last one isn't really a drawback.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Persisting that spell isn't so easy, you'd need a level 8 spell slot depending on class and feats. Divine metamagic would be tricky since it's an arcane spell and DMM is only supposed to work on divine spell post errata. There are ways around it but that means even more feats. Plus the OP said they don't want to be a full caster which is what you'd need to be to pull off DMM.

The one flaw of wraithstrike is it doesn't bypass magically created DR like stoneskin.

Stoneskin is only 10 damage off each attack, at level 7+ when you can easily Power Attack through it. You should be opening the fight with a targeted (Greater) Dispel Magic anyway, so buffs like that are irrelevant.

A Cleric with the Spell domain can DMM: Persist Wraithstrike easy enough. The Inquisition domain and Divine Defiance makes a Cleric a splendid mage killer anyway. The Travel domain with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 and Divine Defiance allows you to counter most escape methods.

A single level of Spellthief allows you to freely use a Wand of Wraithstrike, as it's on your class spell list. Put it in a wand chamber of a weapon and go to town. This actually works quite well on a Whisper Gnome with Silencing Strike.

A Suel Arcanamach with four levels of Incantatrix and an Item Familiar can persist buffs easily, and it's not a full caster. You don't even need to sacrifice any BAB until 7th level with that.

[tricktroller]

Ok everyone, I have selected the idea I like best and Uncle Pine wins. I almost typed wines and if he does, that is fine I will beer instead.

However, I hadn't even thought of taking a tibbit familiar to have a kitty on my shoulders that casts spells on me..... Please help me set up the cohort and I think I will be some sort of fighter/ warblade. Ima fly up and fire you to death with my sword and kitty!

[A Tad Insane]

The witch slayer prc is good against mages, as it gets mettle and slippery mind for free, and has an amf move.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Hunter can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.
Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[Uncle Pine]

Ok everyone, I have selected the idea I like best and Uncle Pine wins. I almost typed wines and if he does, that is fine I will beer instead.

However, I hadn't even thought of taking a tibbit familiar to have a kitty on my shoulders that casts spells on me..... Please help me set up the cohort and I think I will be some sort of fighter/ warblade. Ima fly up and fire you to death with my sword and kitty!

I'm glad you liked the idea!
As for building the tibbit cohort, I believe that a straightforward Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/whatever can raise his casting abilities, with Extend Spell, Selective Spell and Persistent Spell will suffice unless you're going to play in a high-optimization campaign. Just be sure to buy your personal Incanyantrix a headband of intellect to get more persistable spell. Apply Extend Spell to them and his 3+Int persistent buffs will last 48 hours instead of 24! Any buff is a nice addition to a mundane build, but here is a nice list I found earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12256669&postcount=4). But remember to save one metamagic effect to use it to persist the selective AMF! :smalltongue:

[Cassidius]

I'm just going to throw this out there, but if the caster has a spell component pouch a simple steal maneuver removes a lot of his options immediately. Maybe he has a backup and maybe he has eschew materials, but if not he's seriously gimped. I like simple solutions...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Low op: Mix the following ingredients: Decent damage, full BaB class, mage slayer feats, reach, combat reflexes, some necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), and optionally thicket of blades. Season to taste.

Medium op: The best way to kill a non-paranoid but generally competent mage is to get the jump on him. Ditch mage slayer and even ditch full BaB. Get good stealth, darkstalker, good damage (Drow Fighter 1 + Shadow Blade + Craven + lots of attacks does it), preferably some form of mind blank, and importantly get a (greater) dispelling weapon. Hell, TWF and get two. Or some form of AMF. The important thing is to get rid of the buffs/contingencies, then kill him, before he can act. Because once he can act, he's gone, mage slayer or not.

High op: Be a caster with a higher level of optimization, or be a non-caster who basically emulates casters with a much higher level of optimization.

[Seffbasilisk]

Warshaper is the most fun I've had with a melee mage-slayer.

There are a number of low-level entrance loops, like that +1 LA were-touched template, or Changling.

Throw on a few levels of Barbarian, maybe some Fighter for the bonus feats to pick up the PMP and PMC feats, and go to town.

[Togo]

I tend to go wildshape ranger master of many forms. You get flying, stealth, combat capabiity, high spot/listen, almost all the sensory forms in the game, great grapple capabilities, and, at the higher op levels, assume supernatural ability. You end up with potentially more versatility than your opponent, and enough tricks to counter most of what he can throw at you.

[Lady Serpentine]

@Flickerdart:

Depends on what sort of minions one has. Planar Binding can be one of the more versatile spells out there, especially if one gets to pick the spell lists for the things you get with it. Three Planetars to keep him busy while you get away isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Especially since, if the mage slayer in question is smart, they're going to wait for an opportunity where the mage in question needs to take a breather to get spells back.

(Though wands and scrolls do make that more difficult, especially as an Eternal Wand of Teleportation is usable to blip out every day, and you usually don't need it more often than that, so the mage slayer can't even try to keep their target on the run long enough to run them out of charges.)

As for my suggestion? Make a diplomancer, then go around trashing them everywhere. When suddenly they can't buy spell components, they have prices on their head in any country you care to name, and they're kicked out of the mage's guild if they're in one (and not allowed to join any others, if there are multiple), not only will they be much easier to take out because of the fact that they can't get any of the things they need to actually cast spells and having to avoid everyone trying to get the bounty on them (and one of those teams might just do your job for you anyway), they'll come looking for you and you just have to have a trap set up - which is easy given that you can talk anyone into anything.

(Admittedly, the suggestion above is not entirely serious, but in theory, it ought to work; the main thing to do is to take away options and avoid them running off, and all of that, with high enough Diplomacy checks, should be entirely feasible, since the latter relies on making the mage not want to get away.)

Alternately, get a couple of teams together. You're not averse to using magical support, clearly, given the Tibbit thing, so get someone who can scry to locate the mage, and their backup hideout. Then get a team in place in their backup hideout, and send another to attack them directly. That way, when the team that's waiting goes up against them, they'll be weakened, low on spells, and not have anywhere to run to.

(Best results on this one actually take at least three teams; one will go in and reinforce/replace the team in the first hideout as soon as the mage is gone, so that if they decide that teleporting back to the group that they were fighting is at least better than sticking around, they're not going back into a beat-up group, they're getting one just as fresh as the one they left behind.

Also, having one of the AMF Tibbits in each team will help a lot, if those are your only casters.)

[olejars]

Irony: VoP's benefits are Supernatural, thus don't function in an AMF. Monk is also really bad for VoP in general, and non-caster Mage Slayers (despite the feat's name) generally have a hard time actually delivering.

Your best bet is to build a Warblade with some high-levels of optimization and take the Mage Slayer feat tree.

Everything but the exalted strike, deflection, damage reduction, and true seeing are extraordinary (Ex). So you miss out on +5 AB and damage that's good aligned, +3 deflection bonus, DR 10/Evil, and true seeing.

[Menzath]

The one flaw of wraithstrike is it doesn't bypass magically created DR like stoneskin.

I see no one brought this up, but all touch attacks Bypass any amount of DR. No matter the source.


Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

[TuggyNE]

I see no one brought this up, but all touch attacks Bypass any amount of DR. No matter the source.

Well, that's one for the dysfunction books. :smallannoyed:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Everything but the exalted strike, deflection, damage reduction, and true seeing are extraordinary (Ex). So you miss out on +5 AB and damage that's good aligned, +3 deflection bonus, DR 10/Evil, and true seeing.

The problem is that sacred vow and vow of poverty are exalted feats and, as such, are, themselves, supernatural in nature. An argument could be made for VoP's non SU benefits remaining but it's irrelevant because there is no such argument for sacred vow. VoP's benefits get cut off by loss of the prerequisite feat, regardless of whether its own benefits would be affected otherwise.

I think that qualifies for the dysfunctional rules thread. (?)

[Setra]

I see no one brought this up, but all touch attacks Bypass any amount of DR. No matter the source.

That just says it doesn't negate it entirely, I don't see anything saying it wouldn't reduce the damage done still.

[TuggyNE]

That just says it doesn't negate it entirely, I don't see anything saying it wouldn't reduce the damage done still.

I suggest taking up the discussion in Dysfunctional Rules IV, but briefly, consider what it means if DR now applies to inhalation/injury/contact poison/disease, incorporeal damage touch attacks, flaming swords, etc. That's even more dysfunctional.

And if it reduces the damage but doesn't negate it, then all the aforementioned attacks are in a weird twilight zone where DR mostly applies except that they always do a minimum of 1 point of damage per source, so you can swing your +1 flaming caustic shocking frost longsword at a rakshasa and deal it a nice tidy 1+1+1+1 damage, which is very strange indeed.