[PF] Pacting in Pathfinder: The Occultist Handbook

[Psyren]

Version 1 of the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist) Handbook is complete. I'm trying out Google Docs as a handbook mechanism because it makes changing the formatting so much easier than working with forum tags.

Anyway, feel free to check it out here and PEACH:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGgq3CJYQaeAugHvaaws-ak1ryZzijKou_w1KN0D9HA/pub

Stuff that's done:

- Contents page (with hyperlinks)
- Constellations
- Spirits
- The Occultist class (Pact Augmentations etc.)
- Occult Feats
- Binder Secrets

Still left to do:

- Builds
- Races (tied to the above)
- Items
- Non-Occult Feats
- PMU vol. 2 material (tons of new stuff.)

[Psyren]

Reserved 1 of 1 - you may post away. (One more advantage to Docs guides I suppose...)

[Novawurmson]

Mind if I add it to the compendium?

[Psyren]

Mind if I add it to the compendium?

I would be honored, sirrah.

[Novawurmson]

Consider it done! Also, really liking the guide. I've got a couple of the 3.5 books by the same publisher, and they were good material. Hopefully, this will help more people get into a (slightly) lesser known source.

[Psyren]

Thanks :smallsmile:

My thought was that anyone interested in porting the Binder to PF (or heck, just an OGL Binder) would want to check this class out. That's certainly what got me interested. But man, volume 2 stepped everything up. The new spirits are creepy, the legends are cool, and there are even more options for Occultists at all levels.

[N. Jolly]

I have to admit, this is a pretty fun read. It's actually making me want to use these as enemies in the next game I run since they can be so varied (which is my prerequisite for enemies)

Kudos on the guide, can't wait to see more of it.

[Golden-Esque]

I adored reading this guide, Psyren. Its clear that you have as much of a passion for Pact Magic as I do!

Here are some comments based on what I read:

—Fiend Constellation: I felt bad because this Constellation's Aspects suffer *heavily* from the space limitations that Dario and I had in Pact Magic Unbound, Vol 1. This was the primary reason that I made sure that Forash, the 1st Level Fiend Spirit, was printed in Vol 2, so hopefully when you update the guide for the next book these aspects will improve a little bit.

—I nearly spat out my tea laughing when I read your comment about how Cave Mother allows you to "violate child labor laws!"

—Gulguthriana is a Noble spirit because she is/was queen of the otyughs before she was brutally murdered for raising humanoids (specifically elves) like cattle. Gulguthriana was fun to write because of the crazy number of alliterations I was able to pull off in her description.

—Hexus's favored ally (oozes) is a throw-back to Dario's original book. In it, 'living spell' is an ooze-type creature, which is why Hexus likes them.

—For Hexus's VC, I would say that like all other granted abilities, the VC shares rebuke undead with its master, meaning they both share the same "undead command pool." However, that's not written there at all, so GMs should feel free to do as they feel is best.

—Allow me to help out your examination of Jayna Warlock's Void Qualities:

When thinking of the void, think of cold, desolate space. The blank spots between the stars. A "pinch of void" is likely going to be something from outer space. Stardust or the like. Your skin would have a scintillating, galactic appearance (pretend someone is projecting a planetarium all across your body) and it would feel cold and lifeless, as if you were undead. A "nimbus of void" would look like the swirling tendrils of a black hole, except you're not in danger of pulling reality into your face.

—Portenta's Awakened Animal Companion is the exception to the rule. Its awakened, but its still a companion because its very essence is literally bound to your soul. Its not like a typical awakened animal that can hop, skip, and jump away if you call it fat or ugly.

—For Young Kiros's VC (and any vestigal companion, really) you can assume that the creature just vanishes in a puff of smoke and leaves any gear you give it pooled where it once stood. In other words, it strips itself for you before it goes!

—Kiros's TWF is carry over from Secrets of Pact Magic. Its not for the character who wants the Driz'zt DuOrden fighting style, its for the Elan who wakes up one morning and decides, "Hey, I would very much like to stab people with my rapier AND my dagger today!" Plus no-provoke is pretty darn good as-is.

Very well-written guide; an excellent resource for me to use while I'm scheming Mythic Pact Magic. >: )

— Alexander "Alex" Augunas

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

[Psyren]

Compliments from the designer himself! I'm humbled :smallsmile: And yes, as a matter of fact I do plan to revise the aspect ratings once I begin incorporating PMU2 content. Thanks for your kind words, and indeed, this guide was a lot of fun to write.

While I have you on the horn, I did have another two rounds of questions for you on the PMU1 product page. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tyw/discuss&page=3?Pact-Magic-Unbound-Vol-1#147) You've answered some of them in your post above but I did have just a few more. Please feel free to respond there or here (whichever is easier for you.) I'm glad you liked my guide, and happy holidays to you and yours as well.

Also, you may be pleased to hear that I've already gotten comments from people planning to buy the book now that there is a handbook out there to help them build an Occultist :smallbiggrin: You deserve every additional sale, so enjoy!

[Mjollnir075]

Awesome work Psyren. Like I had said in my previous thread, I was looking for just this information. I didn't realize you were so close to releasing it!

I was a little unsure how the constellations worked, but this cleared it up for me.

I did catch a spelling error though.
"Because of th3se, I will say that the Occultist is capable of T2 if it’s allowed to go all-out"

and

"Binder Secrets____ "

Other than that, it looks fantastic. You have clearly spent a lot of your time on this, and it is most definitely appreciated!

Also, must be awesome to get noticed by the very guy who crafted it. Good on you, man.

[Vortenger]

Woo! It's up! I've been waiting since, well, you know when. Thanks for all the hard work, Psyren!

Also, Golden-esque, thanks for bringing one of the most fun and flavourful classes from 3.5 forward. Looks like you nailed it.

[Psyren]

Woo! It's up! I've been waiting since, well, you know when. Thanks for all the hard work, Psyren!

Glad to be of service!


I have to admit, this is a pretty fun read. It's actually making me want to use these as enemies in the next game I run since they can be so varied (which is my prerequisite for enemies)

Kudos on the guide, can't wait to see more of it.

Thanks a ton Jolly, and your Alchemist guide is great too.


Awesome work Psyren. Like I had said in my previous thread, I was looking for just this information. I didn't realize you were so close to releasing it!

I was a little unsure how the constellations worked, but this cleared it up for me.

I did catch a spelling error though.
"Because of th3se, I will say that the Occultist is capable of T2 if it’s allowed to go all-out"

and

"Binder Secrets____ "

Other than that, it looks fantastic. You have clearly spent a lot of your time on this, and it is most definitely appreciated!

Thanks, and those should be fixed now. Please let me know if you spot any other typos. (And I was right - Docs is much easier to work with when it comes to making edits :smallbiggrin:)



Also, must be awesome to get noticed by the very guy who crafted it. Good on you, man.

That was definitely the highlight of my week!

[Gorfnod]

A Christmas present that I wasn't expecting... this is fantastic.
This guide is absolutely great and now that it is up I can stop bugging you about posting it.

I plan on picking up Volume 2 and if you are looking for help writing any additional updates I am more than willing to help.

[123456789blaaa]

I generally prefer 3.5 over PF but this guide is making me itching to play an occultist. Dang it Psyren I already have FAR too many characters that I want to play! :smallfurious:

Nevertheless, thanks for making this guide. Even if I never actually use the info in here in a game, it's fun to read it just by itself. The little comments about the vestiges especially :smallbiggrin:.

[Novawurmson]

A Christmas present that I wasn't expecting... this is fantastic.
This guide is absolutely great and now that it is up I can stop bugging you about posting it.

I plan on picking up Volume 2 and if you are looking for help writing any additional updates I am more than willing to help.

I actually picked up Volume 2 because of this guide :P

[Mithril Leaf]

A moderately interesting combo is the usage of the Simulacra ability of the Muse to make a fairly strong animal simulacra, then Magic Jarring in, then Beast Shaping into something even stronger. Pre-canned somewhat weak gish, but can do in a pinch.

[Psyren]

A Christmas present that I wasn't expecting... this is fantastic.
This guide is absolutely great and now that it is up I can stop bugging you about posting it.

I plan on picking up Volume 2 and if you are looking for help writing any additional updates I am more than willing to help.

Thank you very much!

I need help with the same thing I've always needed help with - builds and combos! There are tons of possibilities with this class (far more than even the Binder had, especially given the compression/acceleration of its spirit acquisition) and definitely more than a few interactions I haven't yet considered just in this book, never mind all the additional goodies added in volume 2.

For example...


A moderately interesting combo is the usage of the Simulacra ability of the Muse to make a fairly strong animal simulacra, then Magic Jarring in, then Beast Shaping into something even stronger. Pre-canned somewhat weak gish, but can do in a pinch.

...this right here is the sort of combo I would have overlooked on my own. Muse Istago to paint disposable animals, and Hexus to possess them - this easy combo works on multiple levels. It keeps Hexus' animal possession relevant even at levels (or settings) where you're no longer facing animal opponents; drawing your own animal gives you options that even the vestigial companion choices don't (e.g. aquatic animals), the animal simulacrum is under your absolute command (to prevent any DM screw from transferring an animal spirit into your comatose body or ending the possession early), you get all the massive survivability of acting by proxy (a proxy of your design no less), and best of all this gives even a frail caster occultist a decent melee option because you start with the physical stats of the animal (and, as Mithril noted above, you can enhance these even further with Fey Baraddu.) This almost gets you back to 3.5 Wildshape, yet it's an involved enough process that it's still relatively balanced. This is the kind of combo I like - strong and useful, but far from the most broken thing you could be doing with Simulacrum and so it's likely to be allowed at a table.


I generally prefer 3.5 over PF but this guide is making me itching to play an occultist. Dang it Psyren I already have FAR too many characters that I want to play! :smallfurious:

Nevertheless, thanks for making this guide. Even if I never actually use the info in here in a game, it's fun to read it just by itself. The little comments about the vestiges especially :smallbiggrin:.

Glad you liked. Tone-wise, I drew heavy inspiration from the (sadly incomplete) "Let's Make a Deal" (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) Binder handbook by Sobolev over on MMB. I loved that author's snide little comments about the weird things the vestiges made you do and tried to mimic that style when it came to analyzing the spirits.

[Mithril Leaf]

Just picked up Volume 2 because of this thread. Nice social marketing job Psyren!
Incidentally, it's highly cheesy but the void elemental casting lets you make any item because it's an (Su) ability and Fabricate has it's consumed item as a material component. I will be filing a nerf request in the product thread, so enjoy it for the two remaining minutes while it lasts.

EDIT: Started reading through it, Fiend is already up a tier as far as spirits go. Forash is nearly Pathfinder Zyceryll.

EDIT2: OH GOD JÖRMUNGANDR!

[Psyren]

Just picked up Volume 2 because of this thread. Nice social marketing job Psyren!
Incidentally, it's highly cheesy but the void elemental casting lets you make any item because it's an (Su) ability and Fabricate has it's consumed item as a material component. I will be filing a nerf request in the product thread, so enjoy it for the two remaining minutes while it lasts.

Not necessarily - supernatural abilities can have components in PF, e.g. an Alchemist's bombs have both material and somatic components, while several Witch hexes have verbal and somatic. Basically it's left up to DM discretion, and while most still don't by default, it'd be pretty hard to argue that Su Fabricate does not given the spell text.



EDIT: Started reading through it, Fiend is already up a tier as far as spirits go. Forash is nearly Pathfinder Zyceryll.

EDIT2: OH GOD JÖRMUNGANDR!

That was my first thought! :smallbiggrin: He's a great choice for casters.

But the one summon at a time limitation helps keeps him in check. And making the summons fiendish can get you dirty looks from the town guard/paladin even if you're saving the burning orphanage.

[Mithril Leaf]

Not necessarily - supernatural abilities can have components in PF, e.g. an Alchemist's bombs have both material and somatic components, while several Witch hexes have verbal and somatic. Basically it's left up to DM discretion, and while most still don't by default, it'd be pretty hard to argue that Su Fabricate does not given the spell text.



That was my first thought! :smallbiggrin: He's a great choice for casters.

But the one summon at a time limitation helps keeps him in check. And making the summons fiendish can get you dirty looks from the town guard/paladin even if you're saving the burning orphanage.

Fair enough, I still feel it warrants some sort of mention somewhere as not being the case as by default most (Su) abilities do not have material components. But yeah Forash is a clearly excellent bind. Marat is also good once again, pairing well with the Phantom Knight to give you truly insane AC. It could even be argued to work when you're in Beast Shape, which would make you a very scary tank.

The Worglord is one of the few 9th level spirits that actually gives you a major ability relevant at such levels. Rerolling everything as a natural 20 is very solid.

[Golden-Esque]

Also, Golden-esque, thanks for bringing one of the most fun and flavourful classes from 3.5 forward. Looks like you nailed it.

Thanks!



Incidentally, it's highly cheesy but the void elemental casting lets you make any item because it's an (Su) ability and Fabricate has it's consumed item as a material component. I will be filing a nerf request in the product thread, so enjoy it for the two remaining minutes while it lasts.


Incidentally, someone just pointed that out to Dario in an e-mail (was it you?)

Currently we're thinking about making a rather large change to the occultist by adding a new core binding rule that any granted abilities that mimic spells with expensive material components also require those components unless noted otherwise. I know this'll have a huge impact on many spirits (for example, Muse Istago's ability to paint simulacrums), so I haven't 100% committed to this change yet. That said, most of the comments we've gotten involving balance make it seem like such a change would really help even out the system.

Since we have a bunch of people in this thread, what do you think about such a change? Making it a universal rule instead of making changes on a case-by-case basis would save us a lot of space and possibly clean up some several broken combos. However, the idea of painting your own menagerie is one that I also enjoy. Greatly. If we do go through with this new ruling, there will likely be a Mythic Path ability that'll cut down the cost significantly, however.

I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this; if you post your thoughts here, I'll see'em.


EDIT2: OH GOD JÖRMUNGANDR!

I wanted to make sure the Tree constellation was a strong choice come Volume 2. You're basically binding a god with Jormungandr, so yeah. Fun times! My favorite ability of his is the auto-rez, personally, but I worked really hard to give him the coolest sounding names possible. ;-)


That was my first thought! [Forash is] a great choice for casters.

One of the critiques we got from Volume 1 was that it was very difficult to play an occultist who focused on "casting." Forash is one of several options for this type of occultist, the other strong one being Circe's Runes. I also count Cornelius Button, personally.

[Psyren]

Currently we're thinking about making a rather large change to the occultist by adding a new core binding rule that any granted abilities that mimic spells with expensive material components also require those components unless noted otherwise. I know this'll have a huge impact on many spirits (for example, Muse Istago's ability to paint simulacrums), so I haven't 100% committed to this change yet. That said, most of the comments we've gotten involving balance make it seem like such a change would really help even out the system.

Since we have a bunch of people in this thread, what do you think about such a change? Making it a universal rule instead of making changes on a case-by-case basis would save us a lot of space and possibly clean up some several broken combos. However, the idea of painting your own menagerie is one that I also enjoy. Greatly. If we do go through with this new ruling, there will likely be a Mythic Path ability that'll cut down the cost significantly, however.

I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this; if you post your thoughts here, I'll see'em.

As I said to Mithril, I don't think that change is needed since Pathfinder really does leave it up to the DM whether components are required for a given Su ability (i.e. supernatural abilities are not specifically component-free in PF like they were in 3.5.) Instead, you have to default to the text to determine whether a given Su ability needs components or not, and Fabricate's text makes it clear that it specifically does. And the 3.5 Binder worked fine without a general rule like this - indeed, one of the cool things about it was the ability to not generally have to muck about with components (this was even called out specifically as a strength of binding in Tome of Magic.)

Component-free Simulacrum for Muse Istago is not a problem due to both the inherent limitations of the spell itself, being limited to one at a time, and the cooldown to prevent you from throwing out lots of paintings during combat.

If you do make this change, I would personally like an exemption for Istago but it's ultimately up to you. Just my 2 copper :smallsmile:



One of the critiques we got from Volume 1 was that it was very difficult to play an occultist who focused on "casting." Forash is one of several options for this type of occultist, the other strong one being Circe's Runes. I also count Cornelius Button, personally.

While we're on the subject of Circe, I didn't like that her runes are SLAs. This makes them subject to SR, provoke AoO, and also makes it unclear whether their saving throw DC is calculated with their spell level or scaling with the binder like other granted abilities. Which should it be?

[Golden-Esque]

As I said to Mithril, I don't think that change is needed since Pathfinder really does leave it up to the DM whether components are required for a given Su ability (i.e. supernatural abilities are not specifically component-free in PF like they were in 3.5.) Instead, you have to default to the text to determine whether a given Su ability needs components or not, and Fabricate's text makes it clear that it specifically does. And the 3.5 Binder worked fine without a general rule like this - indeed, one of the cool things about it was the ability to not generally have to muck about with components (this was even called out specifically as a strength of binding in Tome of Magic.)

Component-free Simulacrum for Muse Istago is not a problem due to both the inherent limitations of the spell itself, being limited to one at a time, and the cooldown to prevent you from throwing out lots of paintings during combat.

If you do make this change, I would personally like an exemption for Istago but it's ultimately up to you. Just my 2 copper

I'll think about it. As I mentioned, my primary goal is to make sure that the rules address the fabricate loophole. I could try to add a line that functions like this:

Granted Abilities and Material Components: When a granted ability duplicates a spell, the binder does not usually require the spell's material components unless the ability states otherwise. As an exception, granted abilities that replicate item-creating spells such as minor creation, major creation, or fabricate always require the mateiral components noted by those effects. As an optional rule, a GM may decide that all granted abilities require all material components of the spells they replicate.

... let's see if I can make that fit into the book! If I can't, it'll end up as an FAQ and nothing more.


While we're on the subject of Circe, I didn't like that her runes are SLAs. This makes them subject to SR, provoke AoO, and also makes it unclear whether their saving throw DC is calculated with their spell level or scaling with the binder like other granted abilities. Which should it be?

Her Minor Granted Abilities follow all of the usual rules associated with spell-like abilities unless noted otherwise. Therefore, they use the standard saving throw DCs unless noted otherwise.

The reason she uses spell-like abilities instead of supernatural abilities is threefold: 1) Her legend strongly supports it. 2) Its unique; no other spirit grants spell-like abilities (and its unlikely any other one ever will). 3) She has more diversity in the spells she can offer than any other spirit in the game (and its unlikely any will ever be permitted to surpass her). She has an entire page dedicated to her spell-like abilities, after all!

[Psyren]

I'll think about it. As I mentioned, my primary goal is to make sure that the rules address the fabricate loophole. I could try to add a line that functions like this:

Granted Abilities and Material Components: When a granted ability duplicates a spell, the binder does not usually require the spell's material components unless the ability states otherwise. As an exception, granted abilities that replicate item-creating spells such as minor creation, major creation, or fabricate always require the mateiral components noted by those effects. As an optional rule, a GM may decide that all granted abilities require all material components of the spells they replicate.

... let's see if I can make that fit into the book! If I can't, it'll end up as an FAQ and nothing more.

That's fantastic - I'd go with that.



Her Minor Granted Abilities follow all of the usual rules associated with spell-like abilities unless noted otherwise. Therefore, they use the standard saving throw DCs unless noted otherwise.

The reason she uses spell-like abilities instead of supernatural abilities is threefold: 1) Her legend strongly supports it. 2) Its unique; no other spirit grants spell-like abilities (and its unlikely any other one ever will). 3) She has more diversity in the spells she can offer than any other spirit in the game (and its unlikely any will ever be permitted to surpass her). She has an entire page dedicated to her spell-like abilities, after all!

Fair enough. She's still quite good, it's just a bit jarring is all (an Occultist binding her has to worry about things that he hasn't had to worry about before, such as being threatened or SR/immunity.) However I do concede she's still highly useful for a caster.

[katarl]

The favored faith trait (p99 PMU2) surprised me when I read it, I couldn't believe my eyes, but I found that it wasn't the only one, there are several ways to increase your binder level beyond the normal cap in the new book, opening the door to a whole new world of shenanigans.

The favored trait boosts the occultist's binder level by 2 for the purposes of binding a higher level spirit, chosen at each level, much like the feat Improved Binding did back in 3.5 for the original binder class, except that there are no prerequisites, it's a trait rather than a feat, and even grants a bonus to binding checks, albeit only to one spirit at a time.

The main problem is that it throws off the natural progression as compared to the spellcasters- it appears that with this trait only and no further power gaming an occultist could use a hold person hex (Foxglove) every round, unlimited alter self (Jarah), vital strike as if a level 6 fighting type (Cromwell) or summon a phantom steed or elemental (Ohbai), all at a level when everyone else is worrying about kobolds and single shot magic missiles. You could use Ability Share to lend your powers out to the other players, but I still feel that I'd have books thrown at me if I tried any one of these.

The same trait would allow an occultist to use Istago at level 3, with all his scrying/buffing/illusion goodness, Baraddu at level 5, Dark Blood at level 7, and so on. And with the trait Heir to the Occult and the feat Commanding Facade, it's not just possible to keep your binder level up to the task of binding these spirits, it even appears possible to have your very own balor simulacrum at level 8, for free, for 24hrs a day. The best a specialist conjuror could do at the same level would be an augmented hound archon for a couple of minutes, and comparing even a half-strength balor to this guy just doesn't seem fair. There's none of the cost of simulacrum to compensate for this either- as normally you have to at least met the creature, to get the sample, and the pay the 100-500gp/hit die and time cost.

I can keep going with examples- Marat, with Heir of the Occult and Commanding Facade, you can have a suit of +1 light fortification full plate that you move full speed in as well as a constant shield, that's a +13 ac right there. With max dex, you'd have an ac of 24, possibly more with size and other bonuses, and that's at level one. Enjoy hitting that with a +1 bab.

The value of this trick lessens at mid-levels, but still progresses every 4 levels, and can give you abilities that other classes wouldn't get with twice the character level.

To summarize- I think these two traits and one feat need a nerf, and either way should definitely be included in the next edition of this guide.

[Golden-Esque]

I knew I was going to have to answer for the Favored trait sooner or later. :-P


The favored trait boosts the occultist's binder level by 2 for the purposes of binding a higher level spirit, chosen at each level,

The trait isn't perfectly clear, but all of its benefits applies to a single spirit at once. For example, you could treat yourself as being two levels higher for the purpose of binding Al'kra. The trait exists to try and prevent the "Fiend Constellation effect" that Volume 1 suffered from, i.e. it was pointless for archetypes to align with the Fiend constellation because the first fiend you could bind to was at level 9.


much like the feat Improved Binding did back in 3.5 for the original binder class, except that there are no prerequisites, it's a trait rather than a feat, and even grants a bonus to binding checks, albeit only to one spirit at a time.

Being a trait has its own restrictions. You can only have one faith trait at once (and there are some very good numeric ones).


The main problem is that it throws off the natural progression as compared to the spellcasters- it appears that with this trait only and no further power gaming an occultist could use a hold person hex (Foxglove) every round, unlimited alter self (Jarah), vital strike as if a level 6 fighting type (Cromwell) or summon a phantom steed or elemental (Ohbai), all at a level when everyone else is worrying about kobolds and single shot magic missiles.

This is true. However, remember that while the occultist is a jack-of-all trades, he isn't very versatile. You get one spirit at 1st level (two if you're using the Reserve Spirit feat) and that spirit's abilities have to last you all day. Also remember that unlike a 3rd-level cleric's hold person, the occultist's granted ability scales with his binder level. That means your hold person is operating at 10 + 1/2 your occultist level (rounded down to 0 at 1st level) + your Charisma modifier. You're likely going to be at -2 DC as a result, which is huge at 1st level.

Some granted abilities might not even function if your binder level isn't high enough! The trait's power is really on a spirit-by-spirit basis.


You could use Ability Share to lend your powers out to the other players, but I still feel that I'd have books thrown at me if I tried any one of these.

Considering its a teamwork feat, Ability Share as fairly niche uses.


And with the trait Heir to the Occult and the feat Commanding Facade, it's not just possible to keep your binder level up to the task of binding these spirits, it even appears possible to have your very own balor simulacrum at level 8, for free, for 24hrs a day.

How are you getting enough Hit Dice to make a balor simulacrum at level 8? Even with Heir to the Occult, that's not enough. Simulacrum has a Hit Dice limit based on its caster's Hit Dice.

Your theory also assumes that your binding check will be high enough to earn Muse Istago's capstone empowerment at 5th level; you need to hit a DC 29 binding check. If you have Capstone Binder, the DC lowers to 24. If you take Flexible Pactmaking, you can gain up to a +10 bonus to your check, and assuming you have a 16 Charisma (fairly reasonable), a 3rd level binder would have a DC of 8 (half his binder level is +1, the trait is another +2). This means you still have 40% chance to not get Muse Istago's capstone empowerment as well as a 15% chance to make a poor pact with him. Its certainly good odds, but not at all guaranteed and the combo uses both of your feats and traits, meaning you have no other tricks up your sleeve. This is the epitome of a one-trick pony.


I can keep going with examples- Marat, with Heir of the Occult and Commanding Facade, you can have a suit of +1 light fortification full plate that you move full speed in as well as a constant shield, that's a +13 ac right there. With max dex, you'd have an ac of 24, possibly more with size and other bonuses, and that's at level one. Enjoy hitting that with a +1 bab.

Shocking Grasp. Magic Missiles. Just about any spell can still severely harm you, really.


To summarize- I think these two traits and one feat need a nerf, and either way should definitely be included in the next edition of this guide.

All this said, I think Heir to the Occult is a bit of a headache. Consider it applicable only to Major Granted Abilities.

[katarl]

I knew I was going to have to answer for the Favored trait sooner or later. :-P

:smallamused:


Being a trait has its own restrictions. You can only have one faith trait at once (and there are some very good numeric ones).

That's true, I can think of a few very good faith traits. I won't ever be taking anything else though, Favored is just too good for any occultist to pass up (unless you're level 17 I suppose).


This is true. However, remember that while the occultist is a jack-of-all trades, he isn't very versatile. You get one spirit at 1st level (two if you're using the Reserve Spirit feat) and that spirit's abilities have to last you all day. Also remember that unlike a 3rd-level cleric's hold person, the occultist's granted ability scales with his binder level. That means your hold person is operating at 10 + 1/2 your occultist level (rounded down to 0 at 1st level) + your Charisma modifier. You're likely going to be at -2 DC as a result, which is huge at 1st level.

Some granted abilities might not even function if your binder level isn't high enough! The trait's power is really on a spirit-by-spirit basis.

This was my original thought after reading Favored- Aha! those clever designers, I thought, they give us the abilities in name, but not the binder levels to power them!

Then I realized that with Flexible Pactmaking and Commanding Facade, we did have the Binder Levels to power the trait, if we could manage to get a good pact going, and the beginnings of an occultist build was born.

Reserve Spirit won't work, it requires 6 levels, feat prereqs are the only level restriction I can't break :smallwink:


Considering its a teamwork feat, Ability Share as fairly niche uses.

It's the 1 minute duration that prevents me from recreating my favourite class from the previous edition, the Occult Priest. It's perfect for a Cavalier though.


How are you getting enough Hit Dice to make a balor simulacrum at level 8? Even with Heir to the Occult, that's not enough. Simulacrum has a Hit Dice limit based on its caster's Hit Dice.

That worried me for a sec, but fortunately on the caster's end it's all based on caster level, not hit die: You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum)

Level 8 occultist, heir to the occult +2, commanding facade +3 (+1 level 1, 4, 8), making 13, just enough.


Your theory also assumes that your binding check will be high enough to earn Muse Istago's capstone empowerment at 5th level; you need to hit a DC 29 binding check. If you have Capstone Binder, the DC lowers to 24. If you take Flexible Pactmaking, you can gain up to a +10 bonus to your check, and assuming you have a 16 Charisma (fairly reasonable), a 3rd level binder would have a DC of 8 (half his binder level is +1, the trait is another +2). This means you still have 40% chance to not get Muse Istago's capstone empowerment as well as a 15% chance to make a poor pact with him. Its certainly good odds, but not at all guaranteed and the combo uses both of your feats and traits, meaning you have no other tricks up your sleeve. This is the epitome of a one-trick pony.

That's definitely true, and you'd be stuck with it for a week if you failed. If it were me, I'd tilt the odds in my favour a little bit more, all the totems isn't possible at level 3, but a rank in craft, and an hour sleep or non-nobility is definitely doable for a +3 (the rank makes you a favored ally), with some endless chalk for another +1. I'd probably do a bit more than that, because this is a power-gaming exercise, not something I'd actually try, but you get the idea.


Shocking Grasp. Magic Missiles. Just about any spell can still severely harm you, really.

Well, not magic missiles, you gave us shield remember?


All this said, I think Heir to the Occult is a bit of a headache. Consider it applicable only to Major Granted Abilities.

That definitely does help. No magical sword (Hessant)/armour (Marat)at level 1 for me.

[Golden-Esque]

I see your point; I'm going to have to add a limiter for Muse Istago's simulacrum in the errata. 13 HD Balors at 1st level is sort of game breaking. :smallsmile:

[Grollub]

if anything i would errata the concerned abilities..

Muse's Simulacrum and fabricate... just errata in things for that.

on a case by case basis

[Psyren]

I see your point; I'm going to have to add a limiter for Muse Istago's simulacrum in the errata. 13 HD Balors at 1st level is sort of game breaking. :smallsmile:

Didn't he say he did it at 8th level? It's not so bad then. EBL 13 at 1st level doesn't seem possible to me.

Having said that, even if Paint Reality limited you to same-level simulacra it would still be useful.

[Golden-Esque]

Didn't he say he did it at 8th level? It's not so bad then. EBL 13 at 1st level doesn't seem possible to me.

Having said that, even if Paint Reality limited you to same-level simulacra it would still be useful.

That's exactly what it will do. It'll read something like this:

In addition to the spell's usual restrictions, you cannot use paint reality to create simulacrum with more Hit Dice than you possess.

My goal isn't to stamp out fun; its to make sure GMs don't hate me for allowing their players to use something I authored. ;-)

[katarl]

That's exactly what it will do. It'll read something like this:

In addition to the spell's usual restrictions, you cannot use paint reality to create simulacrum with more Hit Dice than you possess.

My goal isn't to stamp out fun; its to make sure GMs don't hate me for allowing their players to use something I authored. ;-)

That sounds a lot fairer on the poor DM. A 8HD creature would be the kind of thing you get in a Lesser Planar Binding, which is doable at level 8 via other means. It's still very good, because it's free and disposable, and so should still be in the 'blue' category for the guide.

[Psyren]

That's exactly what it will do. It'll read something like this:

In addition to the spell's usual restrictions, you cannot use paint reality to create simulacrum with more Hit Dice than you possess.

My goal isn't to stamp out fun; its to make sure GMs don't hate me for allowing their players to use something I authored. ;-)

Gotcha, I'll keep an eye out for that.

Also - if sales go well, have you guys considered doing a combined re-release of all the volumes in one large book (with errata), preferably with updated artwork, similar to what DSP did with Ultimate Psionics? (Ultimate Pact Magic!) You could even use a Kickstarter like they did to gauge interest, set stretch goals, and minimize risk. I'd definitely chip in some gil for that.

Of course, if you've got something like that secretly in the works, feel free to whistle innocently and ignore me :smallwink:


That sounds a lot fairer on the poor DM. A 8HD creature would be the kind of thing you get in a Lesser Planar Binding, which is doable at level 8 via other means. It's still very good, because it's free and disposable, and so should still be in the 'blue' category for the guide.

Agreed, I'm okay with it too. And actually, his CE would probably stay at a purple rating even with that restriction. Certainly he himself would, Keen Eye and Dreams of the Muse are very powerful, and Perfect Attributes stays relevant to very high levels.

[katarl]

Gotcha, I'll keep an eye out for that.

Also - if sales go well, have you guys considered doing a combined re-release of all the volumes in one large book (with errata), preferably with updated artwork, similar to what DSP did with Ultimate Psionics? (Ultimate Pact Magic!) You could even use a Kickstarter like they did to gauge interest, set stretch goals, and minimize risk. I'd definitely chip in some gil for that.

Of course, if you've got something like that secretly in the works, feel free to whistle innocently and ignore me :smallwink:

:smallcool:

[Dusk Eclipse]

... Damn you Psiren and your guides! Tempting me away from 3.5 into PF.

A gish binder sounds incredibly fun, :smallfrown: I need a PF group.

[Psyren]

... Damn you Psiren and your guides! Tempting me away from 3.5 into PF.

A gish binder sounds incredibly fun, :smallfrown: I need a PF group.

Hey, I have 3.5 guides too! Not many these days but they're there :smalltongue:

And if you think a gishcultist is fun now, you should see the awesome vestiges spirits in volume 2. Marat is Savnok on steroids.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well yeah, but other than Meditant none of them really interest me and I have the same problem with 3.5, I need a group (PbP can only do so much).

Now for a gishcultist, binding General Hessant is a given at low levels, picking up Lady Jarah (alter self with reach? Yes please) as a secondary vestige early on.

Loh'Moi seems awesome if it qualifies you for the Dimensional Agility feat chain, allowing you to get the Eidolon and still flank with yourself.

Man they are awesome.

[katarl]

Will you be putting out an update for the 2nd book? I'm looking forward to hearing other people's views on the new spirits.

[Psyren]

Will you be putting out an update for the 2nd book? I'm looking forward to hearing other people's views on the new spirits.

I'm working on the new stuff, yes. I'm in no rush though; generally I like the info to hit the SRD before I handbook it, for a couple of different reasons.

Ultimate Psionics also came out around christmas so I'm working on that as well, with the same caveat as above.

[deuxhero]

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly: A Warshade/Totemic Sage/whatever archetype only ever gets one spirit at a time because "bind additional spirit" is a class feature, not something link to effective Binder Occultist level right? It would make sense (you are still a fighter minus 1 feat and weapon training)

I see it can be combined with Lore Warden, which is neat flavorwise for a "smart" fighter, mechanics are hit and miss (does Maneuver Mastery work with Tendril of Darkness? It can be escaped by CMD, but doesn't call for a combat manuver check).

edit: what happens when spirit's favored ally and enemy overlap? Muse Istago is a pretty easy one for it to happen with (but not the only). Is it +1 then half , or half then +1?

[Psyren]

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly: A Warshade/Totemic Sage/whatever archetype only ever gets one spirit at a time because "bind additional spirit" is a class feature, not something link to effective Binder Occultist level right? It would make sense (you are still a fighter minus 1 feat and weapon training)

Correct - only actual Occultists get multiple spirits.


Does Maneuver Mastery work with Tendril of Darkness?

As written, yes. It's not clear what kind of action a creature needs to escape though.



edit: what happens when spirit's favored ally and enemy overlap? Muse Istago is a pretty easy one for it to happen with (but not the only). Is it +1 then half , or half then +1?

I would say halve the increased values but I'll let Alex issue an official clarification.

Note that even if you're a Favored Enemy the totems are still beneficial. As long as you don't have to bend over backwards or shell out too much dough to get them, it's never a bad idea.

[Golden-Esque]

Gotcha, I'll keep an eye out for that.

Also - if sales go well, have you guys considered doing a combined re-release of all the volumes in one large book (with errata), preferably with updated artwork, similar to what DSP did with Ultimate Psionics? (Ultimate Pact Magic!) You could even use a Kickstarter like they did to gauge interest, set stretch goals, and minimize risk. I'd definitely chip in some gil for that.

Of course, if you've got something like that secretly in the works, feel free to whistle innocently and ignore me :smallwink:

Sales HAVE been going well thus far (from what I've seen on Paizo alone, sales of Vol 2 beat out Vol 1 by a LOT on its opening week; the real kicker was the lag between the PDF and Print copies, which we'll likely try to avoid if possible in the future).

If we're talking about a compilation book, anything is possible, but Dario and I haven't talked about something like this yet. At the VERY least, it would have to wait until we get Vol 3 out the door; Vol 3 is currently designed to finish updating all of the Secrets of Pact Magic / Villains of Pact Magic spirits AND provide some Mythic support AND introduce two new spirit mechanics.

I did a poll on our Facebook group; they want 55+ spirits in Vol 3!


Agreed, I'm okay with it too. And actually, his CE would probably stay at a purple rating even with that restriction. Certainly he himself would, Keen Eye and Dreams of the Muse are very powerful, and Perfect Attributes stays relevant to very high levels.

Muse Istago is a strong spirit with a lot going for him, which is ironic considering he was a simple (if brilliant) painter in life. In my personal opinion, he's better as a secondary spirit; a spirit that lets you boost your Strength when Power Attacking with Tyrant Cromwell or pouncing with Fey Baraddu, but he makes for a strong casting spirit in his own right, as long as you're cool with illusions.

Also, I'm said to report that when I asked Dario about whether we'd have time to sneak changes to that one trait into the book, he said we got a memo that the copies had started printing the day before! So while you won't see it in the book, I'd recommend playing it as I described if only for ease of play.

[Golden-Esque]

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly: A Warshade/Totemic Sage/whatever archetype only ever gets one spirit at a time because "bind additional spirit" is a class feature, not something link to effective Binder Occultist level right? It would make sense (you are still a fighter minus 1 feat and weapon training)

Correct. I'm not planning on giving the ability to bind additional spirits to any other class archetype. (Although the Reserve Spirit feat from Vol 2 comes extremely close; as close as I'll ever get.)

I see it can be combined with Lore Warden, which is neat flavorwise for a "smart" fighter, mechanics are hit and miss (does Maneuver Mastery work with Tendril of Darkness? It can be escaped by CMD, but doesn't call for a combat manuver check).

Although extremely overpowered, the Lore Warden is my favorite Fighter archetype; I love giving up Bravery for Combat Expertise, which I hate selecting as a feat on its own because while it can be affective (and its saved my PC's life countless times), it really is an underpowered feat.

In any case, yes, maneuver mastery would apply; treat it like escaping a grapple or a pin (a standard action).


edit: what happens when spirit's favored ally and enemy overlap? Muse Istago is a pretty easy one for it to happen with (but not the only). Is it +1 then half , or half then +1?

The bonus and penalty cancel each other out; its easier than dealing with the Order of Operations. :-)

Keep it coming, folks! You are the coal that fuels the Errata/FAQ engine!

[Golden-Esque]

Loh'Moi seems awesome if it qualifies you for the Dimensional Agility feat chain, allowing you to get the Eidolon and still flank with yourself.

Man they are awesome.

Granted Abilities provide you with the benefits of feats and other abilities, but not those abilities themselves. As a result, you can't use a granted ability to qualify for any feats, prestige classes, and so forth. This will be addressed in the FAQ because its asked EXTREMELY frequently.

That said, I'm currently planning a Mythic path ability that allows you to ignore this rule.

[Novawurmson]

Although extremely overpowered, the Lore Warden is my favorite Fighter archetype; I love giving up Bravery for Combat Expertise, which I hate selecting as a feat on its own because while it can be affective (and its saved my PC's life countless times), it really is an underpowered feat.

I'd just like to say - Lore Warden is "overpowered" in that you get much better than you give up. However, considering how far down the Fighter is from the get-go, in actual play, I find the Lore Warden Fighter is balanced and fair against the Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, etc.

So while it's almost undoubtedly the most powerful Fighter archetype, I feel like it also makes a great Fighter fix.

[Psyren]

Not touching the power argument with a 100ft.-pole :smalltongue:


Sales HAVE been going well thus far (from what I've seen on Paizo alone, sales of Vol 2 beat out Vol 1 by a LOT on its opening week; the real kicker was the lag between the PDF and Print copies, which we'll likely try to avoid if possible in the future).

If we're talking about a compilation book, anything is possible, but Dario and I haven't talked about something like this yet. At the VERY least, it would have to wait until we get Vol 3 out the door; Vol 3 is currently designed to finish updating all of the Secrets of Pact Magic / Villains of Pact Magic spirits AND provide some Mythic support AND introduce two new spirit mechanics.

Excellent news! And yes, I meant a compilation of all 3 volumes.



I did a poll on our Facebook group; they want 55+ spirits in Vol 3!

You guys have a facebook group? What's it called? I looked for Radiance House and couldn't find anything.



Muse Istago is a strong spirit with a lot going for him, which is ironic considering he was a simple (if brilliant) painter in life. In my personal opinion, he's better as a secondary spirit; a spirit that lets you boost your Strength when Power Attacking with Tyrant Cromwell or pouncing with Fey Baraddu, but he makes for a strong casting spirit in his own right, as long as you're cool with illusions.

Agreed, until you get the simulacrum ability he is better as a secondary.



In any case, yes, maneuver mastery would apply; treat it like escaping a grapple or a pin (a standard action).

Thanks for the clarification, I'll be sure to add that to the Warshade as I do the archetypes.



The bonus and penalty cancel each other out; its easier than dealing with the Order of Operations. :-)

Adding to the "Pact Process" section.

[katarl]

You guys have a facebook group? What's it called? I looked for Radiance House and couldn't find anything.

It's called Pact Magic, found here (https://www.facebook.com/groups/109823472376033/), mostly previews of new material, and a few extra bits, like anima spirits.

[genericwit]

Gah! I need to find a group that will let me play with third-party materials! Pact magic is by far and away my favorite magic system. Seeing it brought over to Pathfinder is awesome, and guides are always helpful--pact magic has always been tricky to figure out.

[Golden-Esque]

Gah! I need to find a group that will let me play with third-party materials! Pact magic is by far and away my favorite magic system. Seeing it brought over to Pathfinder is awesome, and guides are always helpful--pact magic has always been tricky to figure out.

Its VERY tricky. Most of my optimizer friends who playtested Vol 1 did NOT like the occultist. Pact Magic in general is supposed to favor generalization over specialization.

That isn't to say that you can't (or shouldn't be able to) combine spirits to make crazy builds, but those interactions are for the occultist base class; not for the Standard Classes, and although sometimes even I get paranoid, I personally feel that all of the archetypes have hard choices that need to be made if you are deciding if you want to become a practicer of Pact Magic. That's intentional; Pact Magic is supposed to be rare, after all.

And yes, I try to post previews and new material on our Facebook page when I can. All attempts at pegging myself down to a set schedule usually fail fantastically, however. Right now I'm showing off a couple of prototype "Lost Spirits" that I found following a Geek Squad data transfer. After we get print copies of Vol 2 shipping (hopefully VERY soon) then I'm going to start doing Vol 3 previews. Right now I'm about one-third of the way through my list of 3rd Level spirits; that totals to 18 spirits for anyone interested.

[Giogoto]

What a great read! Thank you for this class guide. It's refreshing material and good analysis! I am currently playing an occultist and I'm having a blast using your advice. I was hoping to find more on multiclassing (perhaps this will be added later).

I'm wondering if I could get some help understanding pact magic multiclassing:

I am a level 6 Occultist. Upon reaching level 7 I choose to multiclass. I gain 1 level in the spirit medium oracle archetype. Does this mean I am able to bind an additional spirit (two from occultist and one from spirit medium)--requiring 2 binding rituals from the occultist and 1 ritual from the spirit medium?

Any help/feedback would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I'm wondering if I could get some help understanding pact magic multiclassing:

I am a level 6 Occultist. Upon reaching level 7 I choose to multiclass. I gain 1 level in the spirit medium oracle archetype. Does this mean I am able to bind an additional spirit (two from occultist and one from spirit medium)--requiring 2 binding rituals from the occultist and 1 ritual from the spirit medium?

Any help/feedback would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

You will be able to bind 2 spirits total. Archetypes that progress binding stack with your Occultist level, meaning you add the archetype to Occultist and then determine your EBL accordingly. Effectively, you are treated as an Occultist 7 with one instance of the "Bind Additional Spirits" class feature.

[Giogoto]

Makes sense. Thanks Psyren.

[Miss Disaster]

I'm very much looking forward to ordering these supplements! I have the original SoPM hardbound book and I love it.

Even when not using the classes, I do like using the spells. Bind Spirit I (5th level Wiz/Sorc) gets a lot of play in my group and gives us a little flavor of pact binding in the other classes.

[deuxhero]

Some of the Volume 2 stuff has been added to the SRD, but not the most important stuff (spirits).

Wonder how HD/binder level dependent minor abilities work with the Spirit-Touched evolution. Summoner level? Eidolon HD? Call Longsword looks pretty cool for it even if it's only the HD (Cheaper than the awful weapon handling, though most just use a feat, plus if you are binding Loh’moi it keeps you from needing a weapon prepared for it to use when summoned, though how the recursive binding, much less of a spirit who might fall under Loh’moi's favored enemy, works is beyond me).

Speaking of Loh'moi's companion, doesn't it qualify for Dimensional Agility/Dervish with the recent SLA FAQ? DA, Combat Reflexes and Power Attack with Large+Spirit-Touched (add reach at 9) sounds like a decent controller when you can first summon it.

Occult Scholar looks nice. Taking Sidestep Secret and spending a feat on Noble Scion: War lets you dump dex entirely, and that alone is enough reason to ditch the Dark Beyond, but you get even more revelations. Lore Keeper, Automatic Writing (nothing else decent left) and Mental Acuity are nice.

[stack]

Ooh, the gunslinger archetype looks fun. Too bad about delaying gun training though, but I suppose the versatility of binding should more than compensate.

Magus and rogue archetypes look mostly like dips for an occultist rather than stand-alone builds.

[deuxhero]

Wonder what happens if a marked for death target ceases to qualify as a favored enemy with a spirit bound. While most are pretty radical stuff (type and alignment changes, griddle of masculinity/femininity) there are a few in just volume 1 that can go back and forth pretty easily (N'alyia against an opposing pact user who sometimes binds Ubro)

[Dromuthra]

So, I found your guide, read the spirits, fell in love with this pact magic system bought the books... and then threw together my first guide ever on the second book. Only things missing that really matter are items and the new feats, and then rating the favored class bonuses. But yeah, I have my musings here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12wgH3vUx3YAewL9RwoNUY-zRY4Es7XE1h-gk7clqTA0/pub). Please let me know what you think!

Edit: Question for Golden: The Elf favored class bonus currently says that you can't take it more than once in a row for the same constellation. Should this mean more than once after you do it 6 times to get the benefit, or that you only ever receive a fractional benefit and thus none? I'm guessing the first, but thought I'd check.

[deuxhero]

Wonder if Spirit-Touched works with Marat’s Body

[Dromuthra]

Wonder if Spirit-Touched works with Marat’s Body

Nothing suggests that it doesn't. I'll add that to the list for the Beast, since between that and the shield you could give your summons +14 AC.

[Psyren]

So, I found your guide, read the spirits, fell in love with this pact magic system bought the books... and then threw together my first guide ever on the second book. Only things missing that really matter are items and the new feats, and then rating the favored class bonuses. But yeah, I have my musings here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12wgH3vUx3YAewL9RwoNUY-zRY4Es7XE1h-gk7clqTA0/pub). Please let me know what you think!

Well... I'm glad I inspired you and I'm definitely glad that word is getting out about this great product. Going forward though I think it's a good idea to drop someone a courtesy line before lifting their entire format/style wholesale like that :smalltongue: I wouldn't like for someone to look at your guide and think it is truly part 2 of mine, especially since I disagree with some of your ratings. (For example, as much as I like Marat's Shield, a non-scaling +4 shield bonus to AC probably wouldn't get a purple rating from me.)

So with that said, I'll go ahead and make vol 2. and vol 3. additions to my guide as well. More word is always better. Most of my time outside of work and gaming has been tied up with the Magic of Incarna playtest, but I do have plans to revisit Pact Magic and even Psionics as well.

[Dromuthra]

Well... I'm glad I inspired you and I'm definitely glad that word is getting out about this great product. Going forward though I think it's a good idea to drop someone a courtesy line before lifting their entire format/style wholesale like that :smalltongue: I wouldn't like for someone to look at your guide and think it is truly part 2 of mine, especially since I disagree with some of your ratings. (For example, as much as I like Marat's Shield, a non-scaling +4 shield bonus to AC probably wouldn't get a purple rating from me.)

So with that said, I'll go ahead and make vol 2. and vol 3. additions to my guide as well. More word is always better. Most of my time outside of work and gaming has been tied up with the Magic of Incarna playtest, but I do have plans to revisit Pact Magic and even Psionics as well.

Sorry about that; changing the formatting to look different.

Hm. Fair point on the shield.

[deuxhero]

Nothing suggests that it doesn't. I'll add that to the list for the Beast, since between that and the shield you could give your summons +14 AC.

Meant the summoner evolution. Eidolons can't wear armor normally.

[Dromuthra]

Meant the summoner evolution. Eidolons can't wear armor normally.

Ah. I'd go with no, because "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon." If it were a lack of proficiency, I'd say yes, but this seems to be an intrinsic part of the Eidolon.

That said, you could get around it with DM fiat.

[Mithril Leaf]

Fun trick for Milo, if you get his amazing reload minor on a gunslinger or something of that nature, you technically can reload cannons as a free action. If you bind him, so can the ferret.

[deuxhero]

And getting it on a gunslinger is just 2 feats and 2 skillpoints away via minor binding.

[Kerleth]

I am about to play my first pathfinder game (long time 3.5er, never swapped over). We had been going to use 3rd and decided to give pathfinder a try. I already had my heart set on the binder and so he said I could port it over. Then I found out that there is an EXTREMELY good conversion out there. Yay!

Two things that might be useful.
1). On the d20pfsrd under the occultist it says you use your full level in binding checks, like the original binder. Under binding spirits it says half level, and so does your handbook. If anyone knows where to send an email to notify them of the hiccup, it would be cool. More importantly :smallbiggrin: I was wondering which it is since I don't have the actual book.

2) This isn't exactly a spirit or archetype combo, but Ubro + Empower secret jumped out to me right off the bat. Since the limit per day is on the number of TIMES you can heal them, this greatly increases your overall daily healing.

[Akal Saris]

Thanks as always for the great handbook, Psyren!

Kerleth, I know this response is about a month old, but it is 1/2 level. Quoted from the book:
Binding DC: A spirit’s binding DC is the minimum
result that a binder must roll on his or her binding check
in order to make a good pact with the spirit. A binder
who fails to meet this DC still successfully binds with
the spirit, but it suffers from the spirit’s influence and
cannot suppress the spirit’s sign. A binding check is
equal to 1d20 + ½ the binder’s level + his or her Charisma
modifier. Some archetypes allow a binder to use
a different ability modifier, as described under that class
feature. Factors such as totems, feats, and whether or
not the binder qualifies as a favored enemy or ally can
modify this roll.

I am currently playing a pactsworn knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/cavalier-orders---radiance-house/pactsworn-knight)in a low-level game. So far it has been a blast to play. Very strong low-level class with lots of fun surprises for the party and binding roleplay :)

My thoughts from Pactsworn Knight so far:
- Spirit binding has been totally worth losing Challenge as a cavalier. No regrets so far! (much later, when I could have been charging for 120 damage, I will feel that regret)
- Ironically, at levels 1-2 the cavalier's mount is by far my strongest class feature. Silver the Horse has more kills than any other party member and more HP as well.
- Aza'zati: Good vestige for low-level tanking combined with the +1 AC from constellation bonus. Having a familiar that can use the AOE was a nice surprise for some low level kobolds and goblins as well. I got great use out of the boosted social skills and even treasure sense was handy.
- Cave Mother: Pretty worthless! The aoe fire damage was hard to position well, and the +1d6 to undead was negligible. I couldn't get much use out of the free unseen servant.
- General Hassant: Strong strong strong! Man, I love this spirit so much that I need to stop using him before he becomes my only vestige :P I haven't managed to pull off using his capstone empowerment, but as the party 'tank' I love the 'control' options from dazing and prone/entangled.

I'm planning on playing around with Savnoir for the next few fights and then at 3rd level I am looking forward to the ridiculousness that is Tyrant Cromwell. +2 AC, Power Attack, +1d4 Str, and Vital Strike will propel my cavalier's damage from 1d8+5 (I use a longsword) to 2d8+8, or 4d6+12 with a greatsword. Now THAT is some serious damage at level 3!

[Akal Saris]

Sorry to respond to myself in the thread, but for those interested, I just noticed that there is another mini-expansion out by Radiance House:

Pacts & Pawns: New Pact Magic Options (PFRPG) PDF
http://paizo.com/products/btpy976h/discuss?Pacts-Pawns-New-Pact-Magic-Options

It product introduces three new spirits, three new archetypes, five new organizations, and one new feat

New Spirits

Fortune’s Apostate: Born into a clan of barbarian warriors facing its last days, this maimed warrior subverted the prophecy of a goddess of death. When his soul was sent to its end he was forbidden final rest and thus lingers, eternally restless, promising the power to resist those who claim the license of divinity.
Cort Eiding, The Golden Gunman: Eiding was a simple mercenary, who owed too much to too many to leave this earth. To pay his debt, the Golden Gunman literally sells his soul.
Ia, The Illuminator: A staggeringly powerful creature from beyond the stars, Ia’s every movement is a destructive force of nature. Alone at the cold and sterile end of the universe, he seeks a vessel on a more lively world; a world like yours.

New Archetypes

Haunting Occultist (Occultist Archetype): All occultists can bind spirits for power, but some occultists can use them in a more personal way. A haunting occultist learns the secret of binding spirits to her foes, tormenting them and wearing them down with the sheer weight of their occult might.
Legion Occultist (Occultist Archetype): spirits, legion occultists use the powers of effigy to create personal armies, with bound spirits at their head.
Soul Armorer (Paladin/Antipaladin Archetype): In lands where the practice of binding spirits is well-known, paladins are frequent foes of the art; the temptation of easy power and the influence of these spirits is something to feared and warded against. But in other cases, paladins take a very different tack, forcibly compelling these spirits with divine might to lend their power in the name of their deity or cause.

And then a bunch of cults...

[Golden-Esque]

Sorry to respond to myself in the thread, but for those interested, I just noticed that there is another mini-expansion out by Radiance House:

Pacts & Pawns: New Pact Magic Options (PFRPG) PDF
http://paizo.com/products/btpy976h/discuss?Pacts-Pawns-New-Pact-Magic-Options

It product introduces three new spirits, three new archetypes, five new organizations, and one new feat

New Spirits

Fortune’s Apostate: Born into a clan of barbarian warriors facing its last days, this maimed warrior subverted the prophecy of a goddess of death. When his soul was sent to its end he was forbidden final rest and thus lingers, eternally restless, promising the power to resist those who claim the license of divinity.
Cort Eiding, The Golden Gunman: Eiding was a simple mercenary, who owed too much to too many to leave this earth. To pay his debt, the Golden Gunman literally sells his soul.
Ia, The Illuminator: A staggeringly powerful creature from beyond the stars, Ia’s every movement is a destructive force of nature. Alone at the cold and sterile end of the universe, he seeks a vessel on a more lively world; a world like yours.

New Archetypes

Haunting Occultist (Occultist Archetype): All occultists can bind spirits for power, but some occultists can use them in a more personal way. A haunting occultist learns the secret of binding spirits to her foes, tormenting them and wearing them down with the sheer weight of their occult might.
Legion Occultist (Occultist Archetype): spirits, legion occultists use the powers of effigy to create personal armies, with bound spirits at their head.
Soul Armorer (Paladin/Antipaladin Archetype): In lands where the practice of binding spirits is well-known, paladins are frequent foes of the art; the temptation of easy power and the influence of these spirits is something to feared and warded against. But in other cases, paladins take a very different tack, forcibly compelling these spirits with divine might to lend their power in the name of their deity or cause.

And then a bunch of cults...

While Dario and I weren't involved with that product, John Reyst (owner of d20pfsrd.com) was nice enough to send it our way to get our feedback on that product. Though I might have done things differently in some cases, they're a neat group of spirits and you should totally buy that product to support one of the most useful free tools that our hobby has (the d20pfsrd.com site).

~ Alexander Augunas

[deuxhero]

Is there a list of good beast shape options anywhere (for Baraddu)?

I know Bokrug (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bokrug) is a nice choice for beast shape 4, but what about everything else.

[Eldaran]

Is there a list of good beast shape options anywhere (for Baraddu)?



Here's a great resource for polymorphing. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avbOKg848X3Z3dVpmdrpxtR__zan2jj_NzP0uZU9LTw/edit#bookmark=kix.lwjtlxjjotsh)

[Psyren]

Is there a list of good beast shape options anywhere (for Baraddu)?

I know Bokrug (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bokrug) is a nice choice for beast shape 4, but what about everything else.

GOOs are specific individuals (there is only one of each, similar to the Tarrasque and other SoRs) and thus they are illegal targets for polymorph.

[deuxhero]

That line is about appearance, but a GM could easily rule it that way.

@Eldaran
Thanks

[Psyren]

That line is about appearance, but a GM could easily rule it that way.

It's about uniqueness too, just as a 3.5 wizard could not shapechange into Vecna's Avatar. There is only one of each Great Old One.

[deuxhero]

Where is that in 3.5?

[Akal Saris]

(My apologies for reviving a thread, but I believe that it's probably best to consolidate discussion of the occultist given the limited readership).

So after a few months of play, my character, Aimery D'Argentein, recently hit Level 5 so far as a pactsworn cavalier (see: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/cavalier-orders---radiance-house/pactsworn-knight)
The character is very much a frontline melee character, and is in a party with a cleric (often absent from the game), a frontline inquisitor wielding a greatsword, and a witch. Our games tend to be about 60% combat/30% Roleplaying/10% puzzles.

One unexpected challenge has been that I am playing a LG character in a party of largely good-aligned characters, and many of the vestiges’ influences can easily send you into party conflict if you fail your binding check (and Aimery, despite trying to optimize charisma and totems, nearly always fail).

I hope that the following feedback from play might be helpful to players with "gish" occultists looking at different spirits. Overall I'd say the guide is spot on for most spirits (No surprise, as Psyren knows his stuff).

L1:
(Have not bound Sevnoir, Marat, or Milo)
- Aza’zati: He is my character’s go-to spirit for RP reasons, the other PCs refer to him as “oh, are you binding the sucky dragon again? WHYY?” He’s proven useful in finding treasure in dungeons and also since we’ve been on water-related adventures a lot (he provides water breathing) as well as a low level “face” vestige for representing the party in diplomacy. In combat, not super useful. His influence hasn’t hurt Aimery too much.
- Cave Mother: She was near-useless the one time Aimery bound her, and that was fighting against undead. Her influence is negligible.
- General Hassant: Very strong vestige for low level combat due to the dazing strike especially. Since 3rd level Aimery has had a better sword than he grants and a mount of his own, so Hassant has faded into the background more quickly than I expected.
- Forash (ToS2): Decent but not that great for a melee type. Since Aimery already has a mount from cavalier, I found that summoning a lion and a fiendish monster were slowing combat down too much, so I haven’t had Aimery bind him since the first time. He caused a lot of havoc during that period since we were working for a dwarf and an elf (his foes), and under his influence Aimery betrayed othe party’sur employers (twice!).

L2:
(Have not bound Mute Sylvus, Ubro, Foxglove, or Ohbai)
- Tyrant Cromwell: Oh man, so evil but so deliciously strong for a melee. Aimery’s damage skyrocketed from an average of 12 to an average of 26 with him. His influence forced Aimery to stand his ground in a near-suicidal defense of a town, and to frighten my party with evil tendencies.
- Lady Jarah: Aimery can’t make the capstone binding check so she is not as strong as she otherwise would be, but Jarah has been decent so far for RP times. I am a terrible player and could have made much stronger use of her Alter Self ability if I knew my monster manuals better. Her influence has been negligible
- Al’Kra the Slenderman/Tall Man (ToS2): We’re about to find out next session as I currently have him bound. Right now I am enjoying his influence, and have been describing Aimery visualizing the death of each NPC we’ve met during the day.

L3: (Have not bound Muse Istago, N’Alyia, Vandrae, Cornelius, Obba/Ella/Atasha, Taydie)
- Xalen D’Marek: I’m loving having this guy bound so far. So many times I end up looking at a challenge and thinking, “Boy, I wish I had ranks in X Knowledge”. Combined with the Sage constellation ability to make any skill a class skill, his skill boost is incredible for non-combat situations if you use it opportunistically. I have used him as Aimery’s main vestige some days, have booted Aimery’s main vestige with Expel Spirits for him, and I am strongly thinking about taking Reserve Spirit (ToS2 feat) at level 7 for easier access to him without necessarily losing combat abilities. His influence is not too impactful but quite fun to RP.
- Mariath (ToS2): Well, Aimery never got the chance to use this vestige in combat, but man, her influence (act like a nasty, mean-tempered teenage girl) was really irritating the DM and party.

Other thoughts:
Next bindings: I’m excited about hitting 3rd level vestiges and will be trying a bunch of them out! Ohbat might also have niche benefits since my party keeps losing its horses >.<
Compared with the binder: I feel that with 2 books available, the range of options has gotten quite pleasantly wide compared with a low-mid level binder from 3.5, though still not to the point where I feel like my character has a perfect solution to everything. It’s more like playing a rogue, where you usually don’t have the perfect solution (aka magic), but you usually have the 2nd-best answer on hand (skills, UMD, diplomacy, etc.).
Compared with the standard cavalier: Slightly less damage but tons more unpredictable abilities. Overall a good trade, unsurprisingly. I will say that my cavalier’s mount brought way more to the table than my binding abilities until about level 3.

[Psyren]

Well, the mods gave me permission to bump this when I was ready (I'm still renovating the guide; don't look! *throws up curtains*) so hopefully posting here won't cause trouble, but we'll see.

I'm surprised Aza'zati's influence was so painless for you as I consider it to be one of the worst, if not the worst, for a 1st-level spirit. Opportunities to betray your party for money are pretty legion in this game and playing it wrong can end up with the whole rest of the party demanding you play something else, if they don't just kill you outright. So I usually avoid the scaly bastard.

My favorite 3rd-level vestige for a gish would probably be Vandrae personally, so give her a look. Though Taydie isn't bad for dex-based.


Where is that in 3.5?

Shapechange itself says so:

"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature..."

[Akal Saris]

I'd say Forash is as bad or worse than Aza'zati, but you're right, the dragon can get you in serious trouble easily. Looking back I'm surprised 'zati hasn't gotten me in worse spots yet - I guess the fact my party is generally penniless with little gold to expect has helped reduce temptation somewhat.

I'll try to bind Vandrae soon - we just left an abandoned drow temple in a jungle so she will fit in well story-wise. Taydie's form will be great if I can manage to get her and not Meriath next time - my cavalier has little to no use for dex (not even for AC..), but a free bite attack, +2 str, +4 Con, and +4 or +6 natural armor is still great.

If anyone has played LoL before, Meriath and Taydie remind me strongly of Elise & Zyra, respectively.

[Psyren]

Forash is much more powerful though so it's worth the risk. Plus, your party has to not expect it, so simply tell them you're under Forash's influence and they can be constantly vigilant. Finally, the extent of your betrayal is up to you. So when your DM says something like "suddenly you feel the urge to instruct your summon to attack the fighter," you can order it to take the -4 hit for nonlethal, while also dropping prone for an additional -4. And that's if your DM is giving you specific methods of betrayal; if he simply says "you feel like betraying X" - just yell out something private or take a swing at them unarmed or something.