Rejuvenation

[Eaglejarl]

If my character is Venerable and I want to become Young Adult, is there any reason I can't just slap on a Polymorph Any Object to turn into myself from fifty years ago?

If that doesn't work, how about die, be brought back with Reincarnation, and then PAO into my original form.

I was recently told that D&D is very strict about preventing rejuvenation, but I'm not familiar with any rules on the subject. Are there any and, if so, where?

[holywhippet]

Well, PaO doesn't specifically say it can make someone younger. It doesn't say it can't either though.

Reincarnation will work, provided you didn't die of old age.

D&D 3rd edition is a bit more indifferent to age than previous editions actually. In 2nd edition certain spells and monsters would age a character in years (one good reason to be an elf). However, in 2nd edition there was a magical item you could use to become younger (elixir of youth or something like that).

It isn't impossible, but it would be rare for a campaign to last so long your PC lives out their natural lifespan in the duration.

[CombatOwl]

If my character is Venerable and I want to become Young Adult, is there any reason I can't just slap on a Polymorph Any Object to turn into myself from fifty years ago?

If this is 3.5e, PAO sets your physical stats and intelligence to the basic stats for the race. And it doesn't prevent you from dying (you are a Young Adult, but you die when your natural life span runs out as if you were still Venerable).

The actual way to live forever in D&D is reincarnate or last breath. Contingent Last Breath means that you'll reincarnate as soon as you kill yourself with no negative levels. Because Reincarnate actually sets your age back, you can do that forever (as long as you don't actually die of old age).


If that doesn't work, how about die, be brought back with Reincarnation, and then PAO into my original form.

That works, but your stats will suck. If you're a sorcerer or divine caster, it probably doesn't matter. But for anyone else that might be a problem.


I was recently told that D&D is very strict about preventing rejuvenation, but I'm not familiar with any rules on the subject. Are there any and, if so, where?

There are two general routes to immortality: become an outsider, infinite reincarnation. As it happens, you can use Wish to wish to come back as yourself with reincarnation. You even get to keep the Venerable stat boosts to mental stats.

The only thing you really need to worry about are Maruts, and by the time you pull off the reincarnate trick enough to get one on your case, you can solo it with ease.

[holywhippet]

Another possible option is the clone spell. Just make a clone and keep having gentle repose cast on it often enough. When you die your soul will switch to your cloned body which will be at the age when it was made. I think. The text for the spell indicates your soul enters immediately if you are dead when it is complete. It doesn't specifically say you enter if you die later.

[Eaglejarl]

If this is 3.5e, PAO sets your physical stats and intelligence to the basic stats for the race. And it doesn't prevent you from dying (you are a Young Adult, but you die when your natural life span runs out as if you were still Venerable).


Can you point me at where it says that? The only similar rules I see are from Polymorph (which PAO says it works like):


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)


I don't see anything about "base stats" here. If I polymorph into blacksmith, why don't I get the muscles? If I polymorph into a younger version of myself, why don't I get my younger-self stats?

I also don't see anything about not being able to change age categories. Could you point me at that?

[CombatOwl]

Can you point me at where it says that? The only similar rules I see are from Polymorph (which PAO says it works like):


PAO functions like Polymorph, except for the differences noted in the spell. Polymorph functions like Alter Self, except for the differences noted in Polymorph. Alter Self, on the other hand, specifies that "You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race." Since that changes stats with PAO, you are given the average stats of the new form's race. If human, that means 8s across the board (except wis and cha).

The problem here is that neither Polymorph nor PAO specify that they function any differently than that--and, indeed, they ought not work that way, otherwise everyone would just PAO to get 18s and 20s in everything but wisdom and charisma.


I don't see anything about "base stats" here.

It's the same way it works with nonhumanoid forms--you get the default statistics of a member of that race.


If I polymorph into blacksmith, why don't I get the muscles?

Because the spell says (indirectly) that you don't.


I also don't see anything about not being able to change age categories. Could you point me at that?

It doesn't say that you can change age categories. Therefore, any change of age categories by way of PAO is purely the DM houseruling it.

[Eaglejarl]

PAO functions like Polymorph, except for the differences noted in the spell. Polymorph functions like Alter Self, except for the differences noted in Polymorph. Alter Self, on the other hand, specifies that "You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race." Since that changes stats with PAO, you are given the average stats of the new form's race. If human, that means 8s across the board (except wis and cha).


Here's the text from Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm). I think it pretty clearly states that you keep your own ability scores.




You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

[Spore]

When we're talking about immortality, shouldn't patronship be a flavorful AND effective way to become immortal?

Being the chosen of Mystra, or any other god shoudl prove beneficial to your lifespan. :)

[Alleran]

When we're talking about immortality, shouldn't patronship be a flavorful AND effective way to become immortal?

Being the chosen of Mystra, or any other god shoudl prove beneficial to your lifespan. :)
If you don't mind being that deity's errand boy, sure.

There's also the Kissed by the Ages spell in Dragon #354 or thereabouts. It's 9th level, but it can make you immortal.

[Duke of Urrel]

PAO functions like Polymorph, except for the differences noted in the spell. Polymorph functions like Alter Self, except for the differences noted in Polymorph.

I agree with you perfectly this far.


Alter Self, on the other hand, specifies that "You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race."

The word "average" appears in the description of the Alter Self spell, but the rule that you change your physical abilities appears in the description of the Polymorph spell. The Alter Self spell doesn't change any of your ability scores, though it may seem to change your physical ability scores. The spell allows you to control your so-called physical qualities, such as "height, weight, and gender" – and I would add "age" to this list – but all physical qualities "must fall within the norms for the new form's kind."

The word "average" doesn't appear in the description of the Polymorph spell, but it is implied, both by the reference to the Alter Self spell and by the instruction to look up your target form's statistics in the Monster Manual, which lists exclusively average creatures.


Since that changes stats with PAO, you are given the average stats of the new form's race. If human, that means 8s across the board (except wis and cha).

The problem here is that neither Polymorph nor PAO specify that they function any differently than that--and, indeed, they ought not work that way, otherwise everyone would just PAO to get 18s and 20s in everything but wisdom and charisma.

I'm confused your "8s across the board" claim. I believe average ability scores are 10 or 11 for humans. I don't understand what you said about using the Polymorph Any Object spell to ratchet up ability scores in the manner of Pun-Pun, or about Wisdom and Charisma.


Here's the text from Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm). I think it pretty clearly states that you keep your own ability scores.


It doesn't say that you can change age categories. Therefore, any change of age categories by way of PAO is purely the DM houseruling it.

I believe CombatOwl is right about the need for houseruling. However, I don't think it's stretching too much to say that "average" means as described in the Monster Manual, and the MM describes exclusively young adults or adults in their physical prime of life. Dragons are a notable exception, but I don't think I'd allow a player who is a venerable elf to turn herself into an "Old" or "Very Old" dragon just because this target creature would have approximately the same age.

So here's how I would house-rule the matter. Using the Polymorph spell, the Polymorph Any Object spell, or the Shapechange spell, you can change yourself into a younger version of yourself with average physical abilities, whereby "average" means 10 or 11 for a human.

When you transform yourself into an older or younger version of yourself (or another creature into an older or younger version of itself), I would allow you the option to follow the rules of the Alter Self and keep your physical abilities (or those of your target) the same, which may be the better option in some cases. In any event, I would allow any spell modeled after the Alter Self spell to make you appear younger and stronger (or older and weaker) than you actually are, because appearance is (in my understanding) a physical quality, and the Alter Self spell allows you free control over physical qualities, within reason.

I would not allow the option of keeping your own physical ability scores when you change yourself into any species of creature other than one that would be available to you using the Alter Self spell. For example, if you are a human and you use the Polymorph spell to turn yourself into a pixie, I wouldn't allow you to keep your physical ability scores the same. I would require you to take the physical ability scores of an average pixie.

POSTSCRIPT: Actually, there is a general rule that the target form of a spell of the Polymorph subschool must have average abilities: "Unless otherwise noted in the spell's description, the subject of a Polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own, except as follows…" That text appears in the description of the Polymorph subschool on supplementary page 320 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (second printing, 2012). Of course, the text of the Alter Self spell nullifies this rule, but the Polymorph spell and spells modeled after it should re-apply the rule, I think.

[CombatOwl]

Here's the text from Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm). I think it pretty clearly states that you keep your own ability scores.

Right, but Polymorph and PAO both explicitly state that you don't. They only function like Alter Self, when they don't say otherwise.

If you were alter-selfing to yourself, your stats would not change. If you were Polymorphing, you would have defaults (8 + racial bonus) in your physical stats. If you were Polymorphing Any Object, you would have defaults (8 + racial) in your physical stats and your intelligence.

Why? Because Alter Self doesn't adjust stats, but Polymorph and PAO do, and they explicitly do so as if you were an average member of that race.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Average stats are 10 + racial. 8 is just the starting stat for point buy afaik.

[Dalebert]

Yeah, I gotta know where this comes from. Where in the world are you getting the notion that 8 is average rather than 10 or 11? 3d6 has an average of 10.5 with a parabolic curve making 10 or 11 the most common results. Does it say anywhere in any book that 8 is an average humanoid stat, contrary to overwhelming implications to the contrary as well as contrary to actual math?

EDIT:
From the PHB pg 7, the first paragraph under "Ability Scores":


To create an ability score for your character, roll four six-sided dice
(4d6). Disregard the lowest die roll and total the three highest ones.
The result is a number between 3 (horrible) and 18 (tremendous).
The average ability score for the typical commoner is 10 or 11, but
your character is not typical. The most common ability scores for
player characters (PCs) are 12 and 13. (That’s right, the average
player character is above average.)