TheG
2013-12-23, 08:05 PM
Hi! I'm trying to build a cheesy druid that mimics "Nanobots conquer DnD" (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/999101)cheese. It has to be "neary" playable so we aren't looking for something that's obv overpowererd (+200 to all checks or +2000 like the original cheese does) but that's "just enough" to make the character highly ..hem, resilent :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
In my singular case, the restriction are Druid 8, Core Books, Complete Divine, 9100gp
General discussion it's welcome too :)
For the nanoboots the best would be 100 fine creatures, 20 Diminutive creatures it's the minimum acceptable. ( by probability and ignoring bonus/malus by rolling a d20 you have 50% of making or failing dc 10 check-attack for +2 Check/AC/Attack.. so this translate, at least, on a bonus equal to the number of nanobots (on the average)
So, from previous speculation i found:
1. That Wood Wose (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/wood-wose--671/) servant can't Aid Another if the original DC of the check it's over 5 or 10 (read: simple task) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#difficultyClass) so completely unuseful
2. That Beget Bogun (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/beget-bogun--642/) needs lv8 spell: Control Plants that represent a high hidden cost ( best option by lv8 is a staff for 8x15x1800 x 1/2 (50charges) x 1/5 (1/day restriction)= 21600gp ) and boguns are tiny (1 size bigger then diminutive) so the best permanent reduction option is the Wand of Wonders ( used until effect is achieved) for 12000gp.. - Doable by level 9th wealth 36000gp -
On the other hand Boguns can help you with everything (both combat that skillchecks (untrained), but deaht backslash for a fireball it's dangerous.
New ideas:
1. Awaken/Leadership Bats: bats seems to be awesome: Core only, flying, blindsense diminutive animals. The problem is that handle animal can control 1 Bat (raw) with 1 standard action: that's super uneffective, and isn't clear (but it seems) if "speak with animals" (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/speak-with-animals--2515/) can bypass this handle-animal thing).
All the problem it's an intelligence one.
a. Leadership bats - that's a little bit tricky: by DMG
LEADERSHIP AND MOUNTS
A character may use the Leadership feat to attract a cohort that can serve as a mount. This feat cannot attract a mount with an Intelligence of less than 4. If such a character already has a special mount, familiar, or animal companion, he takes a –2 penalty to his Leadership score.
The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs
Assuming a high enough Leadeship score we can acquire Cohorts/Followers that have 4+Int as mount.
Follower's level/ECL starts at 1, bats are 1/10 HD so we can advance bats to 1hd to be followers, so thx to advancing monster rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) we can use this:
ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS
Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability score
Nonelite Array
The nonelite array is: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.
So giving 12 to Int base score and applying the -8 Racial Modifier we have the minimum of 4 and so our 1hd bat si elegible for Leadeshipping :D
Sidenotes:
1. Bat Followers don't have to be necessarly "mounts" by "special cohorts" ruels in dmg even an ettin (5Int Giant) could be a choort so there isn't a true mount restriction on bat (but only a int minimum i belive), moreover you che achieve 5Int bats by putting 13 score to int with NonElite Array.
2. To have at least 20 bats you need at least 15 Leadership score. If increasing Leaderishp score it's necessaty this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140325)
3. A reserve of bats out of fireballs range could be helpfull against angry DMs.
Pros/Cons:
+ Fireball killed all your following bats?? you can attract more! no prob
- Speak with animals for maneuvering it's mandatory (5int counts as npc but language is still an issue
- Feat consuming
b. Awaken Bats: First of all make it clear: Aweken creatures serve you.
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
But Awaken Bats could be very expensive:
A staff of Awaken costs 5 x 9 x 375 x 2/5 (1 Charge/Day) = 17000gp (rounded) + 250xp x 5 x 50 = 62500gp = 79500gp for 50 awakenings.. (doable from lv 12)
Or if you want to pay xp cost: 250xp x 50 = 12500xp (minimum level Lv 12 to Lv13,) if you do only 25 awakenings:6250xp = Lv7 to Lv8
The expenditure of the Xp from lv7 to lv8 it's affordable for my pg, but what's is the price for casting awakening?
A staff for 25 awakenings cost 5x9x375x 1/5 (1charges/day) = 3400gp,we go back to super cheap and cheesy....and we can awake 50 bats
Sidenote:
1. you can use this trick to cast lv5 spells instead of staff and have 35 days of improved spell level remaining:
Hmm. Best I can come up with is UMD a Candle of Invocation (using a potion of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) for +20) to emulate being a cleric. Slap on some Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) so the candle burns for 60 days.
Pros/Cons:
+ Intelligent bats serve for everything and DM can stop you from being aided from others intelligent creatures.
-This strategy leaves you with nothing and a level under your party if bats get killed, and it's very likely to happen with 25 2hd bats
Post Scriptum: If you don't like bats check out the
Thrush Familiar
Diminutive magical beast
HD 1 hp 1/2 master’s
Init +2
Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 15
Base Atk +0
Grp –17
Atk —; Full Atk —;
Space/Reach 1 ft./0 ft.
SA —
SQ improved evasion, granted abilities
SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +2
Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Listen +8, Spot +8; Alertness.
and simply adjust Int to 2, Animal type instead of Magical beast hd by a 1/10d8 and remove familiar special qualities....too cool for a druid.
So if you have any suggestion or new build/concept/advice please write it down :D
thx for reading
In my singular case, the restriction are Druid 8, Core Books, Complete Divine, 9100gp
General discussion it's welcome too :)
For the nanoboots the best would be 100 fine creatures, 20 Diminutive creatures it's the minimum acceptable. ( by probability and ignoring bonus/malus by rolling a d20 you have 50% of making or failing dc 10 check-attack for +2 Check/AC/Attack.. so this translate, at least, on a bonus equal to the number of nanobots (on the average)
So, from previous speculation i found:
1. That Wood Wose (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/wood-wose--671/) servant can't Aid Another if the original DC of the check it's over 5 or 10 (read: simple task) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#difficultyClass) so completely unuseful
2. That Beget Bogun (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/beget-bogun--642/) needs lv8 spell: Control Plants that represent a high hidden cost ( best option by lv8 is a staff for 8x15x1800 x 1/2 (50charges) x 1/5 (1/day restriction)= 21600gp ) and boguns are tiny (1 size bigger then diminutive) so the best permanent reduction option is the Wand of Wonders ( used until effect is achieved) for 12000gp.. - Doable by level 9th wealth 36000gp -
On the other hand Boguns can help you with everything (both combat that skillchecks (untrained), but deaht backslash for a fireball it's dangerous.
New ideas:
1. Awaken/Leadership Bats: bats seems to be awesome: Core only, flying, blindsense diminutive animals. The problem is that handle animal can control 1 Bat (raw) with 1 standard action: that's super uneffective, and isn't clear (but it seems) if "speak with animals" (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/speak-with-animals--2515/) can bypass this handle-animal thing).
All the problem it's an intelligence one.
a. Leadership bats - that's a little bit tricky: by DMG
LEADERSHIP AND MOUNTS
A character may use the Leadership feat to attract a cohort that can serve as a mount. This feat cannot attract a mount with an Intelligence of less than 4. If such a character already has a special mount, familiar, or animal companion, he takes a –2 penalty to his Leadership score.
The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs
Assuming a high enough Leadeship score we can acquire Cohorts/Followers that have 4+Int as mount.
Follower's level/ECL starts at 1, bats are 1/10 HD so we can advance bats to 1hd to be followers, so thx to advancing monster rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) we can use this:
ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS
Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability score
Nonelite Array
The nonelite array is: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.
So giving 12 to Int base score and applying the -8 Racial Modifier we have the minimum of 4 and so our 1hd bat si elegible for Leadeshipping :D
Sidenotes:
1. Bat Followers don't have to be necessarly "mounts" by "special cohorts" ruels in dmg even an ettin (5Int Giant) could be a choort so there isn't a true mount restriction on bat (but only a int minimum i belive), moreover you che achieve 5Int bats by putting 13 score to int with NonElite Array.
2. To have at least 20 bats you need at least 15 Leadership score. If increasing Leaderishp score it's necessaty this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140325)
3. A reserve of bats out of fireballs range could be helpfull against angry DMs.
Pros/Cons:
+ Fireball killed all your following bats?? you can attract more! no prob
- Speak with animals for maneuvering it's mandatory (5int counts as npc but language is still an issue
- Feat consuming
b. Awaken Bats: First of all make it clear: Aweken creatures serve you.
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
But Awaken Bats could be very expensive:
A staff of Awaken costs 5 x 9 x 375 x 2/5 (1 Charge/Day) = 17000gp (rounded) + 250xp x 5 x 50 = 62500gp = 79500gp for 50 awakenings.. (doable from lv 12)
Or if you want to pay xp cost: 250xp x 50 = 12500xp (minimum level Lv 12 to Lv13,) if you do only 25 awakenings:6250xp = Lv7 to Lv8
The expenditure of the Xp from lv7 to lv8 it's affordable for my pg, but what's is the price for casting awakening?
A staff for 25 awakenings cost 5x9x375x 1/5 (1charges/day) = 3400gp,we go back to super cheap and cheesy....and we can awake 50 bats
Sidenote:
1. you can use this trick to cast lv5 spells instead of staff and have 35 days of improved spell level remaining:
Hmm. Best I can come up with is UMD a Candle of Invocation (using a potion of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) for +20) to emulate being a cleric. Slap on some Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) so the candle burns for 60 days.
Pros/Cons:
+ Intelligent bats serve for everything and DM can stop you from being aided from others intelligent creatures.
-This strategy leaves you with nothing and a level under your party if bats get killed, and it's very likely to happen with 25 2hd bats
Post Scriptum: If you don't like bats check out the
Thrush Familiar
Diminutive magical beast
HD 1 hp 1/2 master’s
Init +2
Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 15
Base Atk +0
Grp –17
Atk —; Full Atk —;
Space/Reach 1 ft./0 ft.
SA —
SQ improved evasion, granted abilities
SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +2
Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Listen +8, Spot +8; Alertness.
and simply adjust Int to 2, Animal type instead of Magical beast hd by a 1/10d8 and remove familiar special qualities....too cool for a druid.
So if you have any suggestion or new build/concept/advice please write it down :D
thx for reading