Casting epic spells discretely!!

[JW86]

Hello,

Last session, my level 22 Githzerai Erudite/Slayer/Thrallherd created his first epic power - essentially a hand-held melee 'black blade of disaster'. Unfortunately, as he was casting it, a load of interplanar Level 20 casters from the plane of Union came down to imprison me beneath the earth as I did not have an 'epic spell license' :smallfurious:!!!!

Despite judicious use of Greater Concealing Amorpha, Affinity Field (Pain) and Antimagic Field, they managed to Imprison me beneath the earth before I could finish the 10 minute casting time. At least I took multiple casters out with me, and it was funny watching them all missing me constantly and taking all the damage I did.

Thankfully, some divine intervention freed me from the imprisonment, but being CE, I don't see why I need to register for an epic spellcasting permit from some interplanar do-gooders. All I'm trying to do is summon a planar rift to destroy all my enemies.

I don't fancy fighting a group of 6+ level 20 casters everytime I try to manifest my epic power... (well, actually, part of me does..!) so I'm after ideas on how to cast it privately.

Now, first idea is once I've cast Genesis, I'll have my own demiplane to manifest it in, then I can simply plane shift & greater teleport back to where I want.

Other ideas would include using a Dimensional Lock on the area I'm casting, as well as a Mage's Private Sanctum.

So, ideas are welcome for:

1) Ways to hide the manifestation to avoid drawing the attention of the Union Guard
2) Ways to set up incredibly devastating traps to kill multiple high level casters on arrival - Death, Death, Death to the lawful do-gooders.

The power takes 10 minutes to manifest.

Any creative ideas are welcome for either of the above! :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

This sounds like a case of your DM making **** up because he doesn't want you doing epic spellcasting.

Epic Spell police? Seriously? I've never heard of such a thing. And if your DM doesn't want you doing it, or wants it to be a plot point you deal with, then you're not going to get around it with any tips or tricks in the rules. It's something you need to work out with him.

[JW86]

This sounds like a case of your DM making **** up because he doesn't want you doing epic spellcasting.

Epic Spell police? Seriously? I've never heard of such a thing. And if your DM doesn't want you doing it, or wants it to be a plot point you deal with, then you're not going to get around it with any tips or tricks in the rules. It's something you need to work out with him.

He is happy for me to have epic spells. We're in an epic high-powered campaign and is full of crazy ideas. He has told me that the interception is not purely "DM guaranteed" but has certain relevant reasons/plotpoints for me to explore in-game. So some tactics may actually work. So it's more of a 'creative ideas on dodging the fuzz' thread, than an 'issues to work out with DM' thread.

[Alent]

Turn it back on your DM.

"I planeshift to Union and fill out the paperwork for my license in triplicate, keep the correct color copy, then petition for a vengeance permit and assistance in the annihilation of my lawful enemies."

[Vhaidara]

He said his character is CE, not the scum of the earth a lawyer someone who gives a crap about authority.

[TuggyNE]

1) Ways to hide the manifestation to avoid drawing the attention of the Union Guard

Since, to my knowledge, there is no defined manner in which they would automatically be aware of it (or even really be aware of it at all), you'll have to fall back on general methods of blocking or misdirecting powerful divinations/clairsentience. Alternatively, find some nice powerful creatures that hate Union (whether they like you or not is largely irrelevant, if you play your cards right), and hide out among them while you manifest.

And, of course, set up various contingencies for other possible loss conditions.

[HaikenEdge]

How are they detecting your manifesting the power in the first place? Also, can't you just suppress the displays?

[JW86]

I'm not aware of how they are detecting it.

I even have ten levels in Slayer, so my character is immune to scrying.

I think it is something to do with the fluff of the fact I'm creating a planar rift that literally disintegrates everything it touches. Some generic "omg, epic spell, intercept!" - but I've been assured its not just "DM guaranteed" and that there is a logic behind it - just one I don't yet understand.

I suppose mage's private sanctum and dimensional lock it is. Or five-six symbols of death.

[Alent]

He said his character is CE, not the scum of the earth a lawyer someone who gives a crap about authority.

It's less giving a crap about authority and more about being a bunny ears rules-lawyer. He was just told these people don't want him doing it and is attempting to do it anyway knowing they will attempt to imprison him for doing so again.

The natural, rub your face in it, evil solution is to do it in a way that makes them watch, or even help.

At the very least it fishes for plothooks and gives him an idea of what exactly tipped them off in the first place- He evidently didn't know of them at all before this. You can't fight an enemy you don't know.

[XmonkTad]

If they are pouncing on you when you start casting the spell (rather than when it actually goes off) it's possible your opponents can "see the future". That is to say, perhaps you're tripping something's portfolio sense, and no amount of hiding will get you out of that. As a CE epic level thrallheard, you don't respect "arbitrary" authority, but you should respect strength. Trying to test out what does and doesn't work will get you imprisoned again first time you guess wrong.
Contact other plane time?

[Spore]

All I'm trying to do is summon a planar rift to destroy all my enemies.

May I sig this?

[JW86]

May I sig this?

Of course. :smallbiggrin:

The more devilishly fun method I think will involve manifesting Anti-magic fields, symbols of death and insanity, abyssal rifts, maws of chaos and spheres of ultimate destruction, defenestrating spheres, and THEN starting the epic power manifestation.

Once they turn up, Affinity Field (Pain) and Ultrablast the stuffing out of them. And once the handheld sword of Disintegrate is ready, start with the Inconstant Location, 7 AoOs per round, 20d6 damage Sith-fest.

[Aquillion]

This sounds like a case of your DM making **** up because he doesn't want you doing epic spellcasting.

Epic Spell police? Seriously? I've never heard of such a thing. And if your DM doesn't want you doing it, or wants it to be a plot point you deal with, then you're not going to get around it with any tips or tricks in the rules. It's something you need to work out with him.I think it sounds like the DM is just trying to think of a way to challenge someone who has Epic Spellcasting -- that is, he's fine with the PC using Epic Spellcasting, but he wants them to have to contend with this as part of the plot so it doesn't just become an answer to everything.

"Summon a rift to destroy all my enemies with one action" is a boring plot, but "deal with the interlopers who are preventing me from performing the ritual to destroy all my enemies" is an interesting plot.

[unseenmage]

Sounds to me like the same situation I foolishly DMed once.

At those levels of play it's easier to simply give your players a logic puzzle or a personal (to the character or the player) riddle than it is to challenge them within the rules.

There's likely some turn of phrase or forgotten bit of backstory the DM is thinking of maybe hinting at but isn't well enough for the situation. I would definitely bring it up with them and discuss it as though a miscommunication had occurred. Because that's always a safe bet and from what I'm reading you're fighting the power of fiat backed by plot but playing a character who might not care either way. Discussion is the best policy.

[Somensjev]

could you gate in a balor? :smallwink:

you could try escaping to sigil, in case some god is the reason it's happening

your own demiplane, some mind-raped minions, and lots of anti-magic fields

[icefractal]

Based on your protections, I wouldn't be surprised if precognition was their method, possibly including a deity's portfolio sense. A tear in reality, even a small sword-sized one, is definitely something that could show up that way.

If you do make your own demiplane, there's a handy way to stop anybody teleporting in on you. It's easier with a very small demiplane, in fact.
1) Don't need to breath.
2) Fill the entire space around you with something solid. The entire space, it should be skin-tight.
3) Ward the solid stuff with a force effect, so that it applies to incorporeal creatures. Or just build it out of Riverine to begin with.
4) Bring a simulacrum of yourself with you. Have it turn incorporeal and occupy the only spot it can occupy - stacked right inside yourself.
5) Optional: Leave one tiny spot open. Right next to a sphere of annihilation.

Even from the first two steps, nothing corporeal can teleport in, as there's no place to arrive (or one extremely bad place, depending). By also warding it with force, you prevent incorporeal people from entering.

Arguably you don't need the simulacrum, just a Mage Armor effect on yourself, but that could be considered a shell, allowing small enough incorporeal creatures to appear inside of you.

Now against people with epic-level backing, this may not be a guarantee. So other precautions are not a bad idea. But it should be a good start.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That reminds me of the Cowled Wizards in BG2. The same things should work here. That is, you can get a license.:smallyuk:
Or you can prepare an ambush, cast an epic spell to lure them in and kill them all for daring to challenge you. :smallamused:

Stack conditions in your favor, summon powerful allies, buff up with everything you have... and then crush them. They'll stop coming after you sooner or later.
Bonus points for animating their corpses to further increase your troops.:smallbiggrin:

[Thanatosia]

Wierd that he's using the planare metropolis of Union to enforce his arbitrary plot point. I mean, Union is established content, that has nothing to do with enforcing anything outside it's boundries. Meddling beyond it's borders is pretty much directly contrary to it's purpose which is simply acting as a universal trade hub - anyone it's anti-epic-spellsquad pisses off is less likely to bring their business through Union - it's making enemies for no purpose related to their reason for existing. Union is all about business, and this whole affair is bad business. It's also trying to act as a lawful enforcement role in areas clearly outside it's jurisdiction, which is unlawful.... He probably should have come up with a unique organization to server this role rather then just tossing Union into it, but guess that die is already cast.

But yeah, since your DM is pulling all this out his arse and not using actual content the way it was intended, for reasons that make no sense, there's not much advice we can offer to deal with it.

[ahenobarbi]

On topic: well... you talked to your DM and it seems the DM wants you to investigate the issue. So go to their office and demand to talk to shift manager.

Or create epic powers with manifesting time <=1 round, manifest them and thake some prisoners to talk over the issue.


That reminds me of the Cowled Wizards in BG2. The same things should work here. That is, you can get a license.:smallyuk:
Or you can prepare an ambush, cast an epic spell to lure them in and kill them all for daring to challenge you. :smallamused:

Wait... you could have done that? I always bought the license because I assumed they had infinite attack squads.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wait... you could have done that? I always bought the license because I assumed they had infinite attack squads.
Yeah, once you kill enough of them they stop coming. It takes a lot longer to become strong enough than to earn the money to buy the license though.

[JW86]

Thanatosia - you raise a very good point. This is a homebrew setting, and he has edited some existing content - this included, obviously.

"My frustration at this must be channelled into the most devastating ambushes I can conceive of, to kill as many of them as possible." is one thought, but I'm not sure how productive it is.

Now, in the campaign, there is what I suspect to be an elder evil that is rolling through the planes, destroying them. Even the planes are somewhat homebrew - the planes nearer to the Material Plane are so far unharmed, but planes such as Limbo have already been lost to some red tentacled madness.

I think he may be attempting for us to go interplanar as the next part of the story, and so this ambush is being used as a story piece to get us to start exploring the larger cosmological issues at play.

I can only assume this is a nudge - "Go to Union and get the license.. and find out more about what is going on".

Still, I'm chaotic evil, and that sounds like an overly lawful approach for me. Things like "Sphere of Annihilation" and "Summon a Balor" appeal greatly at this point.

[Somensjev]

Thanatosia - you raise a very good point. This is a homebrew setting, and he has edited some existing content - this included, obviously.

"My frustration at this must be channelled into the most devastating ambushes I can conceive of, to kill as many of them as possible." is one thought, but I'm not sure how productive it is.

Now, in the campaign, there is what I suspect to be an elder evil that is rolling through the planes, destroying them. Even the planes are somewhat homebrew - the planes nearer to the Material Plane are so far unharmed, but planes such as Limbo have already been lost to some red tentacled madness.

I think he may be attempting for us to go interplanar as the next part of the story, and so this ambush is being used as a story piece to get us to start exploring the larger cosmological issues at play.

I can only assume this is a nudge - "Go to Union and get the license.. and find out more about what is going on".

Still, I'm chaotic evil, and that sounds like an overly lawful approach for me. Things like "Sphere of Annihilation" and "Summon a Balor" appeal greatly at this point.

gate in a balor, who gates in a balor, who gates in a balor, etc, etc

command your balor and give it instructions like this, "allow (insert your name here) to cast a spell on you and dont resist it, then tell your balor to do the same"

mindrape them all, making them believe you're their master

start casting, wait for the people to show up, the balors should get rid of them all

of course that's just one possible strategy

[Mnemnosyne]

That depends entirely on how good you are at setting up your ambushes and what you do. I have successfully defeated them very shortly after coming out of Irenicus's dungeon, with only a couple minor detours to pick up extra items. I forget the exact strategy I used, but it's definitely doable at like level 8 or so.

But yeah, you've seen what they can do, now lure them into some traps. Make it so that they don't know whether, when they show up, they're walking into a trap or not, and hopefully they should stop showing up. Suggest researching an epic version of mind blank or something to make yourself and the surrounding area absolutely unscryable too - this should either prevent them from detecting the epic casting at all, or prevent them from knowing if you're ambushing them or actually casting the spell in a situation you need it, at least. Unless the DM is giving them completely ridiculous methods of divination.

[Psyren]

I'm not aware of how they are detecting it.

That might be a good thing to go find out then, because until you know that there's not much to help you.

[schoklat]

Portfolio Sense / general Detect <Planar Rift> sound pretty likely and also iconic for a slew of fantasy / sci-fi. And damn appropriate with the extra info you have us about an EE.
So yeah, my bet is on story hook... How you deal with it is up to you, but the folks already gave some real good hints.

[JW86]

Thank you for the replies.

I will need to investigate how they detected this. I've also just informed DM I am looking for spellscrolls/powerstones for Gate, Mindrape, and True Creation...

I think if these 'spell police' are going to keep interrupting my plans, I need to have a mind-raped hoard ready to crush them.

Now, most planes have been cut off or destroyed, so if I use Gate, I'm only going to be able to summon creatures from the Astral, Ethereal, Shadow or Elemental planes at this point in the story.

My ML is 22, so that's a 44HD maximum for any single creature. Any suggestions? A Phaethon would be nice, but too many HD. I'm suspecting that Balors and Pit Fiends will be unavailable, as well.

[Bogardan_Mage]

being CE, I don't see why I need to register for an epic spellcasting permit from some interplanar do-gooders.
Really? A team of high level casters beating you over the head with it isn't reason enough? Chaotic Evil can still be pragmatic. You don't have to respect the law in order to respect the power of those who enforce it. It seems to me at least an avenue worth pursuing. You can just go on a killing spree or something if you don't like the terms, after all.

[pwykersotz]

Check out the post linked in my sig to raise your CL, assuming you're using transparency.

[JW86]

There is no magic-psionics transparency in this campaign. Do you know any similar ways of raising ML?

Bogardan_Mage, you speak sense I have to admit. I should probably have a word with them and see if I can get a license. I think I just want to have some fun solo'ing an encounter or two as well, though. :smallbiggrin:

[pwykersotz]

There is no magic-psionics transparency in this campaign. Do you know any similar ways of raising ML?

Bogardan_Mage, you speak sense I have to admit. I should probably have a word with them and see if I can get a license. I think I just want to have some fun solo'ing an encounter or two as well, though. :smallbiggrin:

Stegyre has a nice post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127103) on that.

[Somensjev]

Thank you for the replies.

I will need to investigate how they detected this. I've also just informed DM I am looking for spellscrolls/powerstones for Gate, Mindrape, and True Creation...

I think if these 'spell police' are going to keep interrupting my plans, I need to have a mind-raped hoard ready to crush them.

Now, most planes have been cut off or destroyed, so if I use Gate, I'm only going to be able to summon creatures from the Astral, Ethereal, Shadow or Elemental planes at this point in the story.

My ML is 22, so that's a 44HD maximum for any single creature. Any suggestions? A Phaethon would be nice, but too many HD. I'm suspecting that Balors and Pit Fiends will be unavailable, as well.

gate in a shadesteel golem, true mind switch :smalltongue:

ice assassin of an aleax of you.. :smallwink:

if you could somehow make ice assassin of an atropal.. :smallamused:

of course, taking another page from tippy, shapechange into a zodar.. :smallbiggrin:

[ninjamaster1991]

It's actually pretty easy. It'd be a lot easier if you get Unhallow as an SLA, but it's not necessary to work. A level 13+ Half-Demon has it 1/day, which is enough for you. You get him to cast Unhallow as a Stanard Action, attatching the spell Malack used on dead Durkon in OOTS #878 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html). The reason for this will become apparent soon. Next, get a metamagic(Or metapsionic, if you can get it) rod of Fell Drain. Then, get as many long-term multi-target effects in the area as you can, like Maw of Chaos, Prismatic and Orb of [everything and its mother], whether from Powerstones or enslaved motivated casters. Now for the evil part. Fell drain all of them. When you use the (Fell Drain, of course) Epic spell, the sequence goes something like this:

1)Start casting Void Blade of Doom
2)Jerkwads port in
3)Jerkwads take NId6 damage each round
4)Fell Drain kicks in, jerks take NI negative levels per round
5)Unhallow animates dead jerks as wights to eviscerate surviving jerks
6)Use negative-level applying doomblade to help speed murdering
7)Rinse and Repeat
8)Profit

Just make sure to get Death Warded beforehand.

[Krobar]

I wish to be, as an epic spellcaster, exempt from any and all epic spellcasting licensing requirements.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I wish to be, as an epic spellcaster, exempt from any and all epic spellcasting licensing requirements.

Depending on how elaborate the organization behind the license is that could well be outside of the "safe wish" range. With the accompanying potential to backfire horribly.
Considering it's most likely a plot device that the DM spent time and effort on it goes from "potential" to "guarantee".

[Krobar]

Depending on how elaborate the organization behind the license is that could well be outside of the "safe wish" range. With the accompanying potential to backfire horribly.
Considering it's most likely a plot device that the DM spent time and effort on it goes from "potential" to "guarantee".

I guarantee that is exactly what the epic sorcerer in my game would do. And as DM I would let it work, complete with all the backfires from the plot devices he just derailed. It's all in good gaming fun!

It doesn't have to be that complicated just because the organization is huge. They'll most likely have an official document laying out the licensing requirements, and exemptions from those requirements. All you're doing is adding yourself to the listed exemptions, or if there are none presently, adding an exemption. It's just a line of text in the governing code. After casting an epic spell he might still be arrested, have to appear in whatever court, and defend himself at his own cost, every time, until the authorities finally figure out he's exempt. This can create its own plot devices.

You'd be amazed at how often in the real world those who enforce licensing or municipal codes aren't sufficiently familiar with what they enforce, or even more importantly, impose their own opinions and desires on the codes and enforce them incorrectly because "this is how they WANT it to be."

[Scow2]

I wish to be, as an epic spellcaster, exempt from any and all epic spellcasting licensing requirements.

Congratulations. You are now incapable of ever casting an epic spell. You no longer need to worry about epic spellcasting licenses.

[Slipperychicken]

As for the casting time, Uncanny Forethought lets you cast spells as a Full-Round action, albeit at -2 CL.

[Krobar]

Congratulations. You are now incapable of ever casting an epic spell. You no longer need to worry about epic spellcasting licenses.

Well, since I won't play in games run by jerkwad DMs that twist every wish they can because they can I would immediately find another game anyway.

[Mnemnosyne]

That's not 'every wish', that's a wish that is definitely not on the approved list of safe wishes. Furthermore, to grant it the way you intend would mean it would have to alter the behavior of a large number of extremely powerful people.

A good rule of thumb for wishes beyond the safe limits is, 'the magic accomplishes the exact wording of the goal in the manner that requires the least expenditure of effort'. Since you are casting the spell (and presumably did not choose to resist your own spell) that does indeed sound like the least expenditure of effort - it prevents you from ever casting an epic spell and therefore exempts you from any licensing requirements.

What you're suggesting is that the wish should be allowed to change the entire bureaucracy of an epic-level organization to either change the rules, create an exemption for yourself, or cause them to be oblivious to your breaking their rules. In any of those cases, it's a tremendous effort that could only be accomplished by a bevy of activity far beyond the normal limitations of the wish spell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fluff aside, not allowing your players to bypass (presumably) a whole lot of plot that you spend time developing for their (and your) enjoyment with a single wish does not make one a "jerkwad DM".
Wish is pretty explicit about what is safe to wish for. If you step outside of those bounds expect consequences. I probably wouldn't go as far as banning you from epic spells but there's no way that would work as you want it.

[Sith_Happens]

Depending on how elaborate the organization behind the license is that could well be outside of the "safe wish" range. With the accompanying potential to backfire horribly.
Considering it's most likely a plot device that the DM spent time and effort on it goes from "potential" to "guarantee".

I'd let it work as-desired. After all, if you can Wish yourself onto the exemption list, then they can Wish you off of it. Probably soon enough to still interrupt you the next time you try your epic power.

Of course, the safer and more likely to stick thing is "I Wish to have all of the necessary paperwork for an Epic Manifesting license correctly filled out and on file in the required locations within the next [X amount of time]" followed by Divination/Clairsentience spam to find out the quickest way of expediting its processing.

[Psyren]

Congratulations. You are now incapable of ever casting an epic spell. You no longer need to worry about epic spellcasting licenses.

This made me lol :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

Well, since I won't play in games run by jerkwad DMs that twist every wish they can because they can I would immediately find another game anyway.

Trying to thwart an entire guild's worth of epic spellcasters? Guys for whom Wish was old hat for at least 3 levels? That was way beyond the safe uses of Wish.