So after all this time...

[Metahuman1]

I often get told I over due it on the optimization, of late, I've been trying to mitigate that, particularly since I've got my suspicions that it's cost me being in games more then once now.

Anyway, I build a support Sorcerer, level 5, spells like know defenses, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, ext, for a game that I just had this evening. The party, whom largely seem not super optimized, spent a lot of there time running away and being butt monkey's to other critters, and I'm seriously starting to think I might have actually managed to UNDER due optimizing, which is at the same time Ironic and Annoying.

Anyway.

Right now were being sent on a mission by a bunch of Hag's in exchange for them not killing the party. They say they can't get the thing there sending us to fetch with strict instructions not to make any stops there or back and that they will be watching.

I suspect the thing there trying to get is being guarded by something good, and we get it for them and then be killed and they will due horrible things with it in game.

So, I come to the play ground for help wasting them. They have the following for Defenses.

AC: 32
Touch: 20
Flat-Footed: 28
DR: -
SR: 18
Immune: No
Resist: No
Fort: 6
Reflex: 9
Will: 14
HP: 130.

I'm not sure how I can pull off getting what I'd need, but I need a way to get my hands on a save or die that ignores SR, can be repeated at least 3 times, and doesn't allow for a "Lucky Roll" while targeting that fort save. That seems to be the attack ally they'd be weakest too.

Anyone got any ideas to help me swing this? I might have to let them have there muguffin, but I'd really rather they not live long enough to enjoy it much if at all.

[JeminiZero]

That seem to be an awfully tough fight for level 5 party.

Honestly, fort targeting Save or Dies that ignore SR are kind of rare for spell level 2/3. The earliest one I am aware of is Call of Stone [PHB2] and Phantasmal Killer, and even those are level 4, and allows SR, and permit multiple saves before dying.

If you can settle for Fort Save or suck, there is Cloud of Bewilderment [SpC] on level 2, which is really a smaller version of Cloud of Bewilderment (level 3).

[ImaDeadMan]

You're a level 5 party and you're going to go fight enemies with 130 hp and 32 AC? Your melee party members are going to need +13 to hit just to hit them with anything but a 20. And to top it off, these things have SR. I don't think your party is meant to win here. Maybe instead of going for kill spells and the like, you could try using fear (Fell Frighten is a good way to do this) or other means of incapacitating them. Your party could also try creating a diversion to pull the creatures away while the rogue or someone sneaks by and grabs the thing that the hags are trying to get. If one of you has decent diplomacy then you could try to persuade the hags to actually join you in the quest. Basically, try to think of ways to overcome the encounter without killing the creatures because it definitely seems like you're not supposed to.

[ImaDeadMan]

But if you really want to stick it to the DM and those creatures then get the spell Sivering Touch. 3d6 Dex damage with no save since it's delivered as a touch attack. Use Mage Hand to deliver it from a distance. The only issue will be overcoming that SR. This is a level 2 spell, by the way. Just know that your DM will hate this spell a lot.

[Deophaun]

The only issue will be overcoming that SR. This is a level 2 spell, by the way. Just know that your DM will hate this spell a lot.
True casting . Complete Mage. Level one spell.

[Andezzar]

I assume the monsters have DEX 18 (AC32 -> Flat-footed AC 28). A maximized Shivering Touch would make them instantly helpless! A Rod of Maximize spell would come in handy.

[ahenobarbi]

I really think you should play Tier 1 classes rather than Tier 2 classes in the future. They are more flexible so as a result they are much easier to adjust to group power level on the fly.

You wrote that you suspect something good (and more powerful than the hags that threatened you) is guarding McGruffin.

Maybe you could ask the guardian for help. Maybe running away is an option (the hags may have better things o do than waste time chasing random adventurers (eps. if you can get to a city (or other place where they'd have to fight more than just your party))).

Maybe you could prepare a trap so when they find you trying to kill you you'll have advantage (Tucker's kobolds but this time your party plays kobolds role).

You could hire some mercenaries.

What resources do you have besides spells? Who else is in your party?

[Metahuman1]

No necessarily more powerful, just really well prepared to face things that are evil in general and the Hag's in particular. I'm thinking they've got things likce Consecrated/Hallowed/Sanctified home turf and the like that if the hags went there would be a major issue for them but since the party is good/neutral won't be for us.

I specifically avoided T-1 when he told me the party build out because I didn't want to totally steal the spot light/break the game in and of itself, so I went with a T-2 support build that was fairly optimized to due a couple of things, but nothing that was too insanely powerful/gonna steal the show too badly.

The party does not have a diplomat to my knowledge, and I know we already tried talking our way out of this, the only other option the hags would accept apart from "You will go and do this and come back and due it our way, right now." was "You will give us this NPC the rest of you have gotten very attached too over the last couple of levels of game play." Which we weren't doing.

If I'd known he'd be throwing fights like that at a party this level and this un-optimized, I likely would have Run either an Artificer or a Ruby Knight Vindicator and in the latter case come to the play ground to do what ever tricks I had to not loose a beat on my spell casting or martial initiator progression.

The party is a elf Dex based TWF Urban Ranger/Fighter (He's trying to be like the guys in Assassin's Creed, but I don't think he has pounce or other means to move + full attack.)

A dex based Melee Scout (She's using an LA 0 half vampire race. No, it doesn't have anything powerful enough to help.) Who too the best of my knowledge has neither pounce nor swift action movement.

A Catfolk Dex Based Rouge whom has made no mention of TWF or Pounce of Swift Action Movement.

A straight Class Fighter.

An NPC healbot Cleric whom the DM has said might or might not be parting ways with the party before much longer.

And a Fighter/Some kinda arcane caster. I don't know what class. She's dex based again. She's also using some home brew Gargoyle race that is apparently deliberately weak sauce but she's doing it for flavor and trying to play it a bit like she's a character form Disney's Gargoyles.


See, when he told me that, I though a sorcerer who could deal mediocre distance damage all day long with a reserve feat and drop Buffs on allies and Debuffs on enemy's would be the way to go. That the whole party (particularly the rogue.) would appreciate prone flat footed enemy s, or enemy's that couldn't hit back nearly as well or hard cause there Str score was getting knocked down, and that Fighter would appreciate a size boost. What he didn't tell me is this is the kinda enemy's we were fighting, else I certainly would have brought more of my A-Game.



Anyway.

The nearest town is two day's travel and still inside there territory. And given the massive hordes of undead they can raise, I'm guessing we can't get there alive, more so since as I said, there watching everything, and if we deviate from there instructions, will be killed post haste. There pissed at the party for "killing some of there pets". In this case, "pets" were Zombies over-running and killing everyone in a small village the PC's were spending the night in the session before I came into the group. The PC's tried to save some people and protect themselves but ultimately everyone else died and they had to pull out or die as well.

And I don't know we'd be able to Hire the Mercenary's we'd need to fix there little red wagons.

Asking the guardian is an option. I think I'm gonna be able to get the Hags "guide" whom is also one of but not the only way there keeping tabs on us to let me throw up a rope trick before we start the dungeon delve and let the party rest on the grounds of "were gonna do this then we need to go in fresh with all our spells and such." and that once were in the rope trick we can plan. We might be able to get in there and get the guardian to get them off our backs, but I've got a bad feeling were gonna be told "look, if there stupid and come here I can help you, but there not that stupid." Still worth a try.

If that doesn't work.

Alright, so, it Sounds like I need to snag some Scrolls of Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand (or what ever that spell that let's me use touch spells at a distance is.), and some Scrolls of True Casting and a A Rod of Maximize Spell and a Rod of Extend Spell. The trick will be nailing all three of them with the shivering touch with out the other two + there Undead Horde killing us. Particularly since they can incapacitate. I had a total roll of 20 (not a nat 20, total roll.) and they still knocked me out earlier when I did the magic to get there defenses. Any ideas on how to work around that?

I think a series of contingency spells based on "I say a word/get double crossed/ext" type deal to just set of a barrage of maximized Shivering touch spells with Spectral hands as there target and some hits to True Casting too boot. That way it all goes off at once before they an react. Thoughts?

[Andezzar]

I think a series of contingency spells based on "I say a word/get double crossed/ext" type deal to just set of a barrage of maximized Shivering touch spells with Spectral hands as there target and some hits to True Casting too boot. That way it all goes off at once before they an react. Thoughts?Unfortunately you can only have one contingency active at any time, but look at Craft Contingent Spell.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeouch, i second Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand, also Evards Black Tentacles may help if they arent made to be grapple fiends. Also a scroll of Lesser Dragon Ally, its a 5th lvl spell so maybe a tad pricey, but you summon a Dragon of up to 9HD and then you pay it to help you. The payment for help in this battle for a 9 hd Dragon would be about 900gp, which i think your group could pony up. Is a 9HD dragon great? no. is it still a friggin Dragon? yes

[Fax Celestis]

Lower spell resistance spell from Draconomicon is a great fit here. Fort neg, buuuut it lowers the target's SR by 1 per CL for minutes/level and the target takes a penalty to the save vs this spell equal to your CL. Clr/Sor/Wiz 4, so get some scrolls.

[Slipperychicken]

What is this thing? Does it have ranged attacks? Do you know what its speed is?

[Blackhawk748]

Well hags where mentioned and as they have SR i think that they may be advanced Hags from Ravenloft and if they are they have SLAs, but i could be completely wrong

[Metahuman1]

Just spoke to the DM to ask what I'd have to do to find out in character what there dex scores are. Apparently he built them as NPC's starting with a Savage Species Hag progression and then started advancing them into caster classes, hence the knocking us out thing.

I'm still waiting to hear what I'd need to do to determine there exact dex Scores, and I want to pin him down on this so that I can make sure I have more then enough Shivering touch to leave them all absolutely helpless when we confront them.

I'll look at Craft Contingent Spell and see once we get through this mess if we can track down a caster who can do that for us. Barring that, I can pick it up next level and just get a wizard to throw down some spells for me to craft into contingent spells. I was hoping to Grab Craft Wand Making but that might have to be pushed back now.

And I don't think were gonna be able to afford both Lesser Draconic Ally and the crafted contingent spells. As is it's looking like to stay alive were gonna need to due this mission for them and pray they don't double cross us and let us leave alive. Most of this at this point is planning for if we due survive so that we can come back later and kill them all with extreme prejudiced cause there evil and they've hurt us and we don't trust there not gonna look us up again at some point.

[Blackhawk748]

If its for surviving, get crafted contingent spells. When you want killed with extreme prejudice, get the Dragon

[Captnq]

Dudes. You are so over thinking this.

Poison. A lot of poison.

Check out my sig and look up the poison section. They got stuff that effects things immune to poison, like positoxins. Get an assassination bloodspike. Put poison inside it, then coat it with poison. No chance of self poisoning. Maybe add Poison the WSA. Launch it with an Icechucker crossbow that magically poisons the ammo. They got a fort save of 6 for crying out loud.

[Slipperychicken]

Poison. A lot of poison.


This was my thought at first, after seeing that Fort save. You just need to do it such that you don't kill yourself.

Maybe you could cast Delay Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayPoison.htm) on yourselves and make sure it doesn't deal Con damage (or use Drow knockout poison if it isn't immune to Sleep, so that it only knocks you out). Make sure to find somewhere to rest before the duration wears off (or cast Neutralize Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/neutralizePoison.htm) before the duration wears off).

[Randomocity132]

I often get told I over due it on the optimization

If you're overdue on optimization, you need to return it to the library as soon as possible, so that fee doesn't build up too high.

[Illarion]

Cloud of Bewilderment
Wall of Smoke
and poisons, see if you can get contact poisons and just try for touch attacks

[Metahuman1]

Dudes. You are so over thinking this.

Poison. A lot of poison.

Check out my sig and look up the poison section. They got stuff that effects things immune to poison, like positoxins. Get an assassination bloodspike. Put poison inside it, then coat it with poison. No chance of self poisoning. Maybe add Poison the WSA. Launch it with an Icechucker crossbow that magically poisons the ammo. They got a fort save of 6 for crying out loud.

Hmm, I'll download the poisons list once I get home from work. I'm not allowed to download things on the company internet were I work though I can surf the web if nothing else is going on.

So, I've got two routes to take them out of play, Poison the crap out of them or Shivering Touch them helpless and then lay down a finishing blow.


Now, let's talk contingency plans. Let's assume it goes to seed and PC's die. I'll try to make sure the rest of the party get's out cause there pretty cool character wise even if there horrendously poorly optimized. So if someone has to die I'll try to make sure the others get away and it's me. This opens me up to build some delicious awesome high power build who can readily solve problems like this and beef up the party.

I'm actually kinda in the mood for a tricked out DMM cleric using Persist and Chain spell on lots of Buffs to make the entire party more capable and using Ruby Knight Vindicator to put some extra hurt on the other guy.

So, here's a question. Is there a way to build a Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator who get's Full Maneuver Progression (like a Crusader 20.) and Full Spell casting (Like Cleric 20?)?

[pwykersotz]

I have to say, it sounds like your optimization bug has kicked in again...do you really need to pin down the GM's creature stats and make a Gish with full casting? Some groups roll like that (including one of mine), but most that I know of don't.

Is there someway you could get the support you need in game without using maximized shivering touch? A band of commoner militia who could distract the hags or something like that? Maybe you could lure them onto that consecrated ground? Maybe use a sending to tell them you have it and are off the edge of the holy area, and an illusion to reinforce it. Get them to step on, then clean up.

Most DM's I know resent players who try to crash through a scenario with a powerful build, preferring it when the PC's use the setting to its fullest advantage, and often an overwhelming challenge only seems that way until you unravel it.

Just a suggestion, for what it's worth.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe it has. But Like I said, I came in expecting a much lower optimization level then this on our enemy's at this level, which was why I was comfortable. I'm not trying to just simply muscle it, I'm trying to out plan them.

And again, a large part of the problem it seems is gonna be that I will need to find them and catch them after the fact assuming they don't double cross us, cause we won't have a chance to plan the way we need too.

As for distracting them, they have at least fifty CR 5 Zombies that we know of, and it's been strongly suggested that's only a small part of there army. And they flat are not coming on that ground, they know better, that's why they sent us.

The new build I'm asking after is a plan c or d at this point, and it only kicks in if the party in general starts taking casualty's as a part of the Hag's double crossing us. I.E., they made a deal, and they intend to kill us/take the NPC we will not allow them to have as soon as we've kept our end of a bargain we were forced into a metaphorical gun point.

If that happens, I want to have already rolled a new character I can break out and lay down and say "Ok, since that's how this is gonna be, I'll build to be able to handle that. Cause if everything in the world is this over whelming and this happy to kill me for no good reason, it's only reasonable to be ABLE to handle it." And I did specify being able to use DMM: Chain Spell to buff the whole party so that I'm not putting him in the position of "If I challenge the holy warrior guy I WILL TPK the rest of the party, and anything that doesn't seriously risk TPKing the party he'll destroy in one or two rounds with no particular effort."


As for pinning the stats down, I know what they should be and what the most to reasonably expect given the meta info. Instead of just running with that I would like to point out I'm making an effort to get that info in character and I will likely also take the time to use Spell Craft to dig up the info on the spells as well in character. So I'm getting information and planning in character before taking in character actions. It's just that I have to take the time to first out of character know what I'm doing. It's no different then a player going "I want to play Gandalf, what feats and spells and class do I take to do that?".

And having talked to the rest of the party, they generally don't seem thrilled at this situation or the fact that apparently run away is rather often the only viable option, so, while I will also be getting in character consensus, support and approval of the spell/poison plans form the party in character, just like I got all the info those plans are based on in character, I'm not wrecking the game here. And if necessary once the Hags are dealt with, I'll talk to the DM.

Just like if it all falls apart and I have to suffer one or more dead party members, I'll talk to the DM about my next character and I will point blank say "Look, based on what just happened, I'm inclined to agree I pulled back to much on the builds power level. Here's how I plan to avoid that mistake this time."


It's also worth noting the Gargoyal play is apparently not thrilled with the way her build is working out and I'm gonna show her some options for down the road she might want to consider. Tome of Battle, Abjurant Champion, things she didn't know were even options when she started building the character. And she and I are, after were done with the hags for the short term at least, probably gonna talk to the DM about doing a rebuild quest so she can change some feats/class levels/spells around.

[pwykersotz]

Stuff

Ah, okay. Good times then.

[schoklat]

Make it to level 6?
Stinking Cloud should disable them well enough, especially if you can add some hard to avoid movement debuff (Solid Fog, maybe even Tanglefootbag)

[Blackhawk748]

Obviously your DM wants to create your own undead army to fight theirs:smalltongue:

But seriously it does look like he went a tad OP happy on them, but that could just be their HP, hell all of their feats may be toughness!

[Metahuman1]

Possible but they've got enough spell casting built into them that when I came up with total of 20 on will save, as a 5th level character, I was put to sleep. And apparently they can raise stupid numbers of undead and we've got the impression they can fly and use a fair bit of divination magic.


And apparently before dealing with these guys, the DM had them spending a lot of time dealing with an organization that has lots of tricked out Golems they use as enforcers. While the thematic's is cool and all, I was sorta given the impression that the organization as a whole is a very great deal stronger then the Hag's and the Golems themselves were a nightmare to try and fight, especially if they were in numbers.

And Stinking Cloud + Solid fog might be an option.

Edit: After looking at those two spells, all I can ask is, does anyone know a way to stop a character from taking 5ft steps cold? Cause if you can inhibit 5ft steps all together on top of that in an area were those two spells are occupying, I see the potential for some awesome.

And if so, does anyone know a way to drop a spell or two on the melee guys so they can by pass the problems of that area so they can land the finishing blow? I'm thinking buy the fighter a Spear and drop Enlarge Person on him so that he can just walk up to the edge of the spell effects area and drop a attacks inside, would he need anything else beyond that? I think if he stands 5ft outside it and has a total of 20ft of reach inside a 20ft area that should cover him though. Am I missing anything?

[Blackhawk748]

Hold Monster, sadly single target but thats all you get unless your a Druid or a Spirit Shaman, or the Ranger has Entangle........ Wait do that, get your Ranger a wand of Entangle ASAP

[NichG]

My advice? Lure them out in a place where you'll have lots of support.

They want to punish you for not doing what they say? Okay, go live with the local Church of Powerful Paladins for awhile and see how they do fighting an entire church hierarchy.

Basically, for them to make good on their threat, they have to come to you. That means you aren't just fighting them with your stats, you're fighting them with the stats of whomever you're hanging out with.

[Captnq]

Oh, also check out the weapon section. The bloodspike might need DM approval, because it normally is intended for beneficial potions and the like, but no reason you can't fill one up with injury poison. So you might want to look at the Drow Mister. It allows you to attack with ingestion poison. You spray them in the mouth. There are some cheap, yet effective ingestion poisons. Then you add Assassination WSA so you can add poison to your poison. That poison will have to be contact.

Also the sprayer creates an area effect with no reflex save to avoid. You have to get in close, 10', but it creates a 10' long line of whatever is in the sprayer. So load up with contact or inhaled poison and spray them, if you are afraid you can't hit the AC.

Also, consider an Assassination Caber. Yes, it's a 100 pound log you throw, but it does an Area Effect attack that ALWAYS hits. The assassination lets you poison the log. I'm afraid it won't poison multiple targets, unless you buy that poison WSA that lets an applied poison work twice. Check out the WSA section and search the Stragities section for "poison" it'll show up.

Also, Caltrops. Check out the trap section. Here's some choice examples:

Crackling Caltrops
Ammunition Trap
Cost: 397 gp
Base: Caltrops (1 gp)
Material: Hizagkuur (30 gp)
WSA: +1 Enhancement Bonus, Flaming (+1 Bonus), Shocking (+1 Bonus)
Improvements: Masterwork (6 gp)
It does base 2 points of damage and half movement, 1d6+1 flaming damage, and 1d6+1 Shocking damage. Not that impressive, but not that expensive, either. The multiple versions of energy damage do add up, however.

Incapacitating Caltrops
Cost: 4,571 gp
Base: Crystal Caltrops (125 gp)
Material: Blood Glass (+10 gp)
WSA: +5 Enhancement Bonus, Assassination (+1 Bonus), Virulent (+1 Bonus), Improved Torturous (+2 Bonus), Merciful (+1 Bonus)
Improvements: Masterwork (6 gp), Upgrade poison to Alchemical Sleep Gas [DC 15, same effect] (30 gp), Coat with Sssartisss [DC 20 Injury poison Paralysis 2d6 minutes/Uncon 1d4 hours] (400 gp)
This version is expensive as all heck, but has no chance of accidentally killing anyone. It has a +5 to hit, does 1d6+7 damage, and if you hide them properly, the target is flat-footed when he steps on them and gets an additional 1d6 from the Assassination WSA. That’s an average of 14 points of non-lethal damage, which should be enough to drop your average 3 hit dice creature. Then assassination increases the save DC from the gas to DC 20, and the injury poison on the caltrop to DC 25.While there are more useful poisons to use, these are the best as incapacitation. Other poisons might do con damage and the point of this Caltrop is to take your target alive.

Stygian Caltrops
Ammunition Trap
Cost: 1,087 gp
Base: Caltrops (1 gp)
Material: Stygian Ice (+120 gp)
WSA: +1 Enhancement Bonus, Assassination (+1 Bonus), Frost (+1 Bonus)
Improvements: Masterwork (6 gp), Horror weed extract [Contact Poison, DC 20, 1 Wis/2d4 Wis] (600 gp)
This version isn’t that impressive, but it does do some cool things. It does a base 2 hp damage and resulting half movement, 2d6 frost damage, Will Save at DC 12 or lose 2 points of wisdom, Fort save at 21 or suffer 1 Wis/2d4 Wis damage, and a nausea inflicting cloud to every square within 5 feet of the caltrops. Mostly, this is for messing with clerics or hoping to drop someone who took wisdom as a dump stat.

[Metahuman1]

Unless half speed when your already restricted to a 5ft a round movement speed actually has a rules as written somewhere stating this is specifically the case, Entangle won't help. Which is a crying shame, cause 3 scrolls and a spear in the next town and yes, I dare say it would have been problem solved.

Those Disabling Caltrops might be of use though.


The problem is if we don't do what they say they will have more time then they need to punish us for it before we could get anywhere, let alone local holy order of high level clerics and paladins or Grove of Good aligned high level druids or good aligned magic collage or fighting collage or what have you.

They have it worked out so that we will be on our own if we face them before this mission is over. Hence why it think it likely that even though I'm making the effort to deal with them in and out of character once they have what they want, dealing with them might simply boil down to "roll new character and make sure he's more then capable of going "I got this" and making the rest of the party have "well, watch out, we've got a bad ass over here after all" as a rather unexpected response."

It is honestly looking like the only choice I'm gonna have is give them this thing they want, and THEN come back and kill them promptly so that they don't have the luxury of doing too much with it I hope. I just also hope I don't have to kill what ever's protecting it. And toward that end, I need to secure a way to shut down there ability to take 5ft steps, specifically that ability, that will stack with Stinking cloud and Solid Fog to turn into "You can just stand there/lay there and die, that's your entire list of options." I like this plan cause it will likely be the cheapest one while at the same time effectively guaranteeing that all we need is 3 of the party members to have a scroll and a readied action, and a 4th to wait for a buff and have bought a long spear.

I will still try to have the poison plan/Shivering Touch plan rigged up as a back up plan in case this somehow doesn't work. And I will absolutely need to have a much higher op character built by next session so that I can deal with stuff like this more effectively. I like the idea of a CoDzillia build using Divine Metamagic Persist + Chain that can help himself be a melee monster and the party all be better at what they do while still functioning as a caster.

[Andezzar]

What makes you think that the hags know what you are doing at any given moment?

[Metahuman1]

There watching us, and sent a guide along to keep tabs on us and mystically report back. They've also go Massive tones of undead servants to can be keeping tabs on us from a distance by just poking eyes out form the ground and we'd be unable to see it, access to divination and scrying magic, and they can fly high enough that we can't see them. We pull something now, before they have what they seek, they'll know.

[schoklat]

Solid Fog reduces your effective speed to 5ft, which automatically prevents you from taking 5ft steps (cf there).
Immunity to poison would be best. Delay Poison might or might not work, but that's a bit of a grey area for the DM to decide. Or you drag them out 1-by-1 by throwing a net over them, which also has the advantage that you control them straight away.

[ImaDeadMan]

Look into some powerful magical items like Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The entry from the SRD is as follows:
"This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp."

So it may be a little expensive but if you pool your money together you might be able to get some.

[Metahuman1]

Look into some powerful magical items like Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The entry from the SRD is as follows:
"This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp."

So it may be a little expensive but if you pool your money together you might be able to get some.

So, even if they pass the fort saves it takes them out of the fight to the point that they can be Co De Grad with our risk of one of them managing to move out of the area? And we don't even need to make an attack roll?

If so, well, I think I've found a winner for plan A

[schoklat]

Nice find, but considering the amount of broken in that dust, I wouldn't count on the DM allowing you to get some.

[Metahuman1]

Hey, if he doesn't want it once I have the money I just need scrolls and a way to prevent 5ft of movement form happening and I'll put it toward that.

So, here's a question, are there any Sorcerer/Wizard/Ranger spells that make actual difficult terrain? The kind you can't cross with only 5ft of movement?

Cause if so I have a plan B shopping trip all planned out.

[schoklat]

Dr1: Spore Field
Dr2: Briar Web
S/W3: Shatterfloor

[Metahuman1]

S/W is Sorcerer/Wizard, right?

I'll have to check and see if anyone in the party invested any ranks in use magic device and see if the NPC cleric can drop a guidance of the Avatar spell on them before we go in. That way no matter what we should be able to kill them with out serious DM interference.

Now I'm building my back up character to throw at the party if this one dies either A) before we can start building up cash for the plan cause we get double crossed or B) If the plan somehow falls apart.

I'd like to thank everyone for there support and I will post an update after the next session to let you guys know if it's back up character or kill the hags with current character ahoy.

[Metahuman1]

Alright, so update time.

We spent a bit of time traveling, and I think the party is getting annoyed along with me at the party's fighter/ranger character, since he keeps wandering off when we go to make camp to "go hunting". Thus, splitting the party and making things like planning take longer then needed and as of the previous session getting us into trouble with things like the Hags. I know I'm annoyed with him cause he keeps wanting to call me optimizing a buff/debuff themed sorcerer into question even when we keep nearly getting killed while bragging out getting a feat every level.

Were going into the ruins. We know there's traps in there, and it's now all but solidly confirmed that the hags can't enter here. We know there's gonna be guardians, weather there good or evil remains to be seen. However were having it suggested from the way the DM is describing the architecture that it's Mezo-american theme.


Right now were looking at 5 possible outcomes.

1: We try too bluff the Hags into thinking that we've put the gem into an extra dimensional space that only I can access and only while I'm alive, and tell them they will get it, but only after they have signed a magical contract for our guaranteed safety from them and there forces, on pain of loosing all there magic everything if they break it. Problem is if they call the bluff we all die.

2: Try to get what ever's guarding the gem they want to help us. This might work if it's good and strong enough, but that requires it's good and strong enough.

3: We get double crossed and die since we've come to the conclusion since they can effortlessly knock us out and we can't get the info on there powers we need to mount an effective defense cause were out in the middle of freaking no-where and the party is as far as I'm concerned not only woefully under optimized but apparently woefully under equipped. The latter came to my attention when the ranger/fighter was griping that I had a full 9,000 GP worth of magic stuff on my sheet coming in and the rest of the party had started at level one and now at levels of 4 or 5 per character were up to about 1,000GP worth. And I did mention to the DM that this was a problem since the game assumes that much money in magic gear at that level.

He's said he's gonna rectify that at the latest right after the Hags, but that's not helping me right now. He's also said once "chapter 1" is finished he's gonna offer players a chance to do rebuilds/change characters if there not happy with what there playing now. I know the one playing the Gargoyle homebrew is using fighter/Wizard and is constantly complaining that she sucks at both using magic and fighting, so were gonna probably let her re-roll her ability scores to make her more functional and I'm gonna point her at the complete Arcane Wu-Gen, the Complete Mage Abjurant Champion, and the Tome of Battle Warblade and Jade Phoenix Mage since I fell she'll enjoy a build set up on those a great deal more.

4: The party has an NPC cleric who worships a Cat Goddess, who's gonna pray for guidance to a way to get out of this. I told him in character to tell her she might just get a new believer if she did bail us out of this mess. The DM got a very broad smile at that so now I'm thinking he might go that route cause he likes the rp idea that gave him.

5: The last one is that we either find an item that let's us get ourselves out of this mess in the ruins, or the Hags just keep there end of the deal. You know, sorta like when in the one more day story line after Peter Parker made the deal with the devil the devil didn't cheat.


And one last note regarding plans we'd made. I made some rolls in character to see if I knew about the items/spells needed to deal with the hags, and it was determined that I either knew about them or knew enough that once I got to town and started asking around among people who could sell magic items and spells and the like that I'd be able to find what I was looking for. Thus, if we do get out of this, I'm on track to at least be able to kill the hags afterword.