(PF) Is this combo completely broken?

[Cassidius]

Alright playground here's the question:

I'm about to start a new module and I'm going to play a storm druid starting at level 5. I'm hoping to be more of a blaster/battlefield controller and I've stumbled upon this absurd combination. If I take the magical lineage trait that reduces the cost of metamagic by 1 level for one spell and then choose Produce flame as the spell I could apply the metamagic feat dazing spell to the spell as a third level spell. The problem as some of you have no doubt guessed is that I get attacks over multiple rounds with produce flame, so at level 5 I could get 4-5 touch attacks with a 120 feet range that dazes the target (assuming they fail a will save and don't have enough spell resistance or damage reduction to avoid all damage from the spell).

This seems broken to me, but a lot of dazing spell shenanigans do, so what do you think playgrounders?

[Craft (Cheese)]

It's not a bad trick by any means, but ranged touch attack will or daze one enemy for 1 round is not the most efficient use of your standard actions at the levels where this becomes viable, and wizards do it better: They can use Snapdragon Fireworks to do the same thing with move actions instead of standards, with (waaaay) longer range, no attack roll, and as a Reflex save (which is generally much lower than will saves). As a caster druid, I'd rather throw down a Sleet Storm, a Spike Growth, or a creatively applied Stone Shape.

[Cassidius]

Good point craft, that's even worse than what I was thinking. I still think that it is a viable use of a third level spell slot, if you're fighting a single enemy, especially one with a poor will save, you've just locked him down for 4-5 rounds, plus added the 4-5d6 plus 20-25 fire damage. Not bad for a third level spell at CL5.

I'm saying 4-5 because you could interpret that the spell couldn't be used the fifth time since there was less than a minute remaining.

I agree that the action economy is low, but the spell economy is pretty significant.

[Just to Browse]

Many inexperienced DMs could cry foul, but you require an RTA + Will save, and a not-insignificant character investment, plus you don't even get to deal heavy damage with those attacks, so it's really a supportive power multiplier, and you'll probably need 2-4 attacks per round before it really shines.

Very good thought, though. Use this and feel awesome.

[Cassidius]

Well since I was thinking of using this in an adventure with a new DM, maybe that won't happen. I just like the idea of my wildshaped eagle druid dropping this on an enemy from an obscene height and then watching as the party (a monk, a fighter, and a ranger) eats him alive.

[andreww]

For the Druid I would prefer to use Flaming Sphere or Ball Lightning.

[Urpriest]

Good point craft, that's even worse than what I was thinking. I still think that it is a viable use of a third level spell slot, if you're fighting a single enemy, especially one with a poor will save, you've just locked him down for 4-5 rounds, plus added the 4-5d6 plus 20-25 fire damage. Not bad for a third level spell at CL5.

I'm saying 4-5 because you could interpret that the spell couldn't be used the fifth time since there was less than a minute remaining.

I agree that the action economy is low, but the spell economy is pretty significant.

Fighting a single enemy is pretty rare, though.

[Karoht]

It is a nice safe option for having you and your animal companion focus fire something down. You stay at safe range and daze-lock, your pet mauls it's face off. If you have a Wolf pet, he gets free Trip attacks. Nice low level trick.
But I am afraid I have to agree. Using your standard action is the sucky part. More expensive, but consider using the same trick on Call Lightning instead?

[Cassidius]

Fighting a single enemy is pretty rare, though.

Maybe it's just my game, but about every third encounter is a single enemy. I guess the real problem is just using the magical lineage trait and daze spell with any multiple round damaging spell.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Fighting a single enemy is pretty rare, though.

It depends on the campaign: Paizo Adventure Paths *love* boss fights against singular enemies, having at least one per chapter, sometimes as many as four or five. A trick that lets you cripple single enemies before they can even act is very valuable here.

Then again, you'd probably have an easier time just wildshaping into a dire tiger and pouncing them. Paizo AP bosses are woefully low-op.

[Talya]

I prefer: Magical Linneage, +3rd party cantrip "Slapping Hand" + metamagic feat "Toppling Spell."

Freely bitchslap people to the ground with unlimited cantrip slots. If anything - NPC or player alike - irritates you, wiggle your nose and smack them down for 1 damage and a trip.

[Cassidius]

Yes, that is definitely more broken. At least that's 3rd party though.

[Karoht]

Maybe it's just my game, but about every third encounter is a single enemy. I guess the real problem is just using the magical lineage trait and daze spell with any multiple round damaging spell.Acid Arrow + Dazing Spell. Fun times. Not something you can easily access as a Druid, but quite amusing if you can.

When you hit 3rd level spells, Spit Venom is an excellent and reliable debuff spell. Blind with no save on a ranged touch attack (no effect if target is immune to poisons), THEN the target makes a Fort save VS a poison effect.

Your Daze via Produce Flame is still neat, and competative VS a 3rd level slot, mostly because Produce Flame can be used against multiple enemies, Spit Venom is single target.

[schoklat]

I prefer: Magical Linneage, +3rd party cantrip "Slapping Hand" + metamagic feat "Toppling Spell."

Freely bitchslap people to the ground with unlimited cantrip slots. If anything - NPC or player alike - irritates you, wiggle your nose and smack them down for 1 damage and a trip.

Magus + Magic Missile + Spell Recall almost gets you there.
Plus it's always a smart target, action effective BFC.

[Karoht]

Magic Missile + Toppling Spell is awesome. Hit up to 5 targets, knock em all down. Win.
For Clerics/Oracles, Spiritual Weapon + Toppling Spell is extremely effective as well, it even scales well.

If it can be tripped, and you have a Force descriptor spell to apply it to, Toppling Spell is all kinds of awesome.