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jjpickar
2007-01-18, 02:33 PM
The awesome nature magic, the ability to assume the form of fearsome animals, and a helpful nature buddy, what's not to like? Yet, sadly, I've encountered the argument several times that Druids are "overpowered." If so what are the best ways to keep all the class features mentioned above (and I might note 3.5 PHB worthy as well) without completely doing away with them? I am openminded enough to accept just about any suggestion anyone might offer.:smallsmile:

Indon
2007-01-18, 02:36 PM
In my opinion, it's not so much that druids are overpowered, it's that they have a lot of room for cheese because they can use their class abilities to cover up the downsides to things that make their class abilities better, and things like that.

A reasonably played Druid I find to be quite balanced in a party.

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 02:41 PM
Reasonable. Animal companions though, are much maligned because they unbalance parties in a fight because they add just that extra punch (heh. or claw) and flanking that destroys anything with low AC.

Rockphed
2007-01-18, 02:48 PM
So does a 1st level commoner. Or the paladins mount. Or that creature you just summoned.

MrNexx
2007-01-18, 02:49 PM
If you want to keep the wild shape and the animal companion, then ditch or nerf the spellcasting, and get rid of natural spell. Druids as semi-casters wouldn't be terribly unbalanced... they would have some spells, but wouldn't have enough, fast enough, to be the triple-threat that they have today.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 02:51 PM
The awesome nature magic, the ability to assume the form of fearsome animals, and a helpful nature buddy, what's not to like? Yet, sadly, I've encountered the argument several times that Druids are "overpowered." If so what are the best ways to keep all the class features mentioned above (and I might note 3.5 PHB worthy as well) without completely doing away with them? I am openminded enough to accept just about any suggestion anyone might offer.:smallsmile:

"awesome nature magic"
First, develop a rigorous definition of "nature magic". Do away with all healing type spells. Do away with all direct damage spells. Do away with any spell that transforms anything into something else that's not a plant or animal. Do away with all summoning or extraplanar type spells.

"the ability to assume the form of fearsome animals"
Develop and enforce familiarity rules. Limit the number of apex predator animals within 1000 miles of the druid. Remove dinosaurs, dire/legendary/etc. animals.

"a helpful nature buddy"
Have the base culture refuse to accept wild-looking animals in towns (like wolves, bears or tigers). Enforce the animal companion's INT, natural behaviors and feeding habits (including the eating of livestock or crops, harassment of local herds, mauling children, etc.). Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls for animal companions left to fend for themselves. Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls on druids who attempt to live in the wilderness. Force the druid to explain where the wilderness is, when they are in civilized lands of farms and pastures. Require the druid to delineate which tricks his animal companion knows. Develop and enforce rules for morale of the animal companion (and by extension all other war-trained animals, such as war horses and war dogs).

Ban Natural Spell feat.

Ban any feat that affects Wild Shape (speeding it up, changing available forms, etc.)

Ban Persistent Spell feat.

Ban that feat that allows any divine caster to pick up an extra domain.

Ban Wild Armor.

Set careful limits on the magic item slots available to animal forms.

Enforce the rules on applying barding, picking up and putting on items and so on while in animal form.

Consider making all druids themed to a particular animal, able to attract only animal companions of that type and to Wild Shape only into animals of that type.


Even then, they'll be more powerful than most of the other classes. But at least they won't be quite as carried away.

headwarpage
2007-01-18, 02:58 PM
What about minutes/level wild shape, or even rounds/level? Forces the druid to use a round of combat to shift, if nothing else. And Natural Spell should either not exist, or be severely restricted.

Or what about removing wild shape from the core druid, and adding a PrC that gives wild shape, but doesn't advance spellcasting or the animal companion? That would make all the major druid abilities available, but force a choice between them.

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 03:02 PM
Minutes\Level rounds\level sounds good and those bns don't bother me at all. But if a Druid has Knowledge nature shouldn't he be allowed to roll to determine wether he knows about the animal he is transforming into?

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 03:09 PM
To balance the druid, try fighting more evil outsiders, less npcs. Animal companions and wild shape will be less effective and more likely to be killed outright in melee, and less likely to turn the tide of the battle.

Druid
2007-01-18, 03:19 PM
"awesome nature magic"
First, develop a rigorous definition of "nature magic". Do away with all healing type spells. Do away with all direct damage spells. Do away with any spell that transforms anything into something else that's not a plant or animal. Do away with all summoning or extraplanar type spells.

"the ability to assume the form of fearsome animals"
Develop and enforce familiarity rules. Limit the number of apex predator animals within 1000 miles of the druid. Remove dinosaurs, dire/legendary/etc. animals.

"a helpful nature buddy"
Have the base culture refuse to accept wild-looking animals in towns (like wolves, bears or tigers). Enforce the animal companion's INT, natural behaviors and feeding habits (including the eating of livestock or crops, harassment of local herds, mauling children, etc.). Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls for animal companions left to fend for themselves. Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls on druids who attempt to live in the wilderness. Force the druid to explain where the wilderness is, when they are in civilized lands of farms and pastures. Require the druid to delineate which tricks his animal companion knows. Develop and enforce rules for morale of the animal companion (and by extension all other war-trained animals, such as war horses and war dogs).

Ban Natural Spell feat.

Ban any feat that affects Wild Shape (speeding it up, changing available forms, etc.)

Ban Persistent Spell feat.

Ban that feat that allows any divine caster to pick up an extra domain.

Ban Wild Armor.

Set careful limits on the magic item slots available to animal forms.

Enforce the rules on applying barding, picking up and putting on items and so on while in animal form.

Consider making all druids themed to a particular animal, able to attract only animal companions of that type and to Wild Shape only into animals of that type.


Even then, they'll be more powerful than most of the other classes. But at least they won't be quite as carried away.

No, after all that Druids will suck. You just axed almost there entire spell and list destroyed wild shape. Congratulations, you've made a secondary monk! Everyone likes classes that can't do anything other than keep themselves alive! Also, most of your suggestions to "balance" the animal companion don't actually do anything to weaken them. All you've done is create a bunch of anyone book keeping for the druids player. I agree that my favorite class is overpowered but it's really no worse than the cleric or, at higher levels, the wizard. Unless you're introducing a whole host of rules to knock those classes down a peg (not necessarily a bad idea but that's not what we're discussing here) then don't complain about the game breaking druid who ruins play for everyone else.

Suzaku
2007-01-18, 03:24 PM
Excuse gamebird she like one of those people in MMORPG that complain to developers that certain class is so unbalanced and deserves to be leap attacked and critical hit with a two handed nerf bat so that they're be weaker then other classes and then call it balanced.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 03:36 PM
You could add more balance and depth to the druid simply by making many of their spells (you'd have to add some new ones) terrain specific. Instead of making the druid choose one animal type for wild shape, just have them choose from animals that would natuarally live in whichever terrain you are currently located (a lion in the plains, bear in the forest, tiger in the jungle, etc.). Now you add balance, but also give the druid a chance to try many new tactics and techniques.:smallsmile:

Golthur
2007-01-18, 03:37 PM
Hmm, the main problem I see with druids as they stand is that they possess all three of:
Full spellcaster (with decent all-around spell selection)
Good warrior (with wild shape + wild armour, etc.)
Bring another decent warrior into the mix (animal companion)

In earlier versions of D&D, their spellcasting wasn't as good as it is now - most of their offensive spells were either weak (e.g. fire seeds) or had restrictions on their use (e.g. call lightning); their healing spells were usually one level higher than a cleric (e.g. cure light wounds was a 2nd level spell), with the exception of poison-related spells. So, reducing the spells back to that might be a good start.

Wild shape is fine, so long as you restrict what they can do in it - e.g. no Natural Spell, no getting the benefit of your items while you're an animal (with one or two very rare exceptions), although I'd also add the modifier that it only removes your racial modifiers to abilities and adds the animal's (like Rich's polymorph variant) - that way, a weak druid becomes a weak bear. I'd probably also add the limitation that staying in animal form for too long risks you getting "lost" - that is, becoming an animal mentally.

I'd probably lose the animal companion, or, if keeping it, adopt Gamebird's suggestions that it really is a wild animal that just happens to follow the druid around. Other party members, villagers in the local town, etc., are not accorded any special treatment. The druid would have to watch the bear that's following it around very, very carefully; and most villagers wouldn't be too keen on a bear hanging around town.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 04:12 PM
The irony, of course, is that so many of the game supplements went out of the way to give the druid more options (such as rhino hide armor) allowing the class to be powergamed even more effectively.

krossbow
2007-01-18, 04:27 PM
ONE: use shifter variant from PHB II. This makes it better, but you still want the animal companion. SO:

TWO: Give the druid A lower caster progression, and you can have your animal companion.
________
Nevada dispensary (http://nevada.dispensaries.org/)

NullAshton
2007-01-18, 04:45 PM
Druids need to keep healing spells, they're much like the cleric... it's an alternative divine caster.

Jack Mann
2007-01-18, 04:45 PM
"awesome nature magic"
First, develop a rigorous definition of "nature magic". Do away with all healing type spells. Do away with all direct damage spells. Do away with any spell that transforms anything into something else that's not a plant or animal. Do away with all summoning or extraplanar type spells.

"the ability to assume the form of fearsome animals"
Develop and enforce familiarity rules. Limit the number of apex predator animals within 1000 miles of the druid. Remove dinosaurs, dire/legendary/etc. animals.

"a helpful nature buddy"
Have the base culture refuse to accept wild-looking animals in towns (like wolves, bears or tigers). Enforce the animal companion's INT, natural behaviors and feeding habits (including the eating of livestock or crops, harassment of local herds, mauling children, etc.). Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls for animal companions left to fend for themselves. Enforce random encounter checks or wilderness survival rolls on druids who attempt to live in the wilderness. Force the druid to explain where the wilderness is, when they are in civilized lands of farms and pastures. Require the druid to delineate which tricks his animal companion knows. Develop and enforce rules for morale of the animal companion (and by extension all other war-trained animals, such as war horses and war dogs).

Ban Natural Spell feat.

Ban any feat that affects Wild Shape (speeding it up, changing available forms, etc.)

Ban Persistent Spell feat.

Ban that feat that allows any divine caster to pick up an extra domain.

Ban Wild Armor.

Set careful limits on the magic item slots available to animal forms.

Enforce the rules on applying barding, picking up and putting on items and so on while in animal form.

Consider making all druids themed to a particular animal, able to attract only animal companions of that type and to Wild Shape only into animals of that type.


Even then, they'll be more powerful than most of the other classes. But at least they won't be quite as carried away.

Ah, no. That's a pretty bad fix. Two of their three abilities are nerfed into nigh-uselessness, and the third becomes useless a bit later on, or else isn't hurt that much.

With wildshape, you've taken away a few of their abuses, but what about plants, elementals, and so forth? Certainly, you can enforce familiarity about those as well, but now you've made things even harder on the DM, since he can't send a fair number of monsters against his party anymore, lest the druid figure out how to change into them.

Spellcasting is nigh useless. Of the spells left, many work only on animals, which the DM has to be very careful about sending after them (unless the druid already know them). Let's look at second level. They've lost all stat-boosting spells, arguably barkskin, fire trap, flame blade, flaming sphere, lesser restoration, chill metal, heat metal, soften earth and stone, spider climb, summon nature's ally II, and summon swarm. That's more than half the spell list. At spell level nine, they're left with antipathy, foresight, and sympathy. Maybe shapechange, if you limited it to animal and plant shapes.

The animal companion can no longer effectively be used. For one thing, what happens when the druid goes to sleep and his bear kills the sleeping wizard? For another, the animal companions that are going to be allowed in the city aren't going to be useful at later levels. You're left with horse, dog, pony or camel. Possibly a hawk. These are much less useful later on. This means that the druid has to make a choice between staying out in the woods or following the rest of the party into the city. Unless he has vow of poverty, that means the druid can no longer go looking for equipment to buy, unless he gives his "shopping list" to his buddies, and they're willing to help him out.

The druid needs to be nerfed, but your fix goes way too far the other direction, as well as making the game much more difficult for the DM.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:05 PM
I would suggest a much longer list of animal companion creatures focussing on domestic animals.

The OP asked how to keep all three of the druid's core powers (full spell casting, wild shape and animal companion). It seems to me that the OP was asking "How do I keep the druid overpowered, but make other people quit complaining that they are?" That's not really possible, unless you just say "Yeah, it's overpowered and I like that. Only an idiot doesn't play a druid if he's going for power." Which is how I approach it (minus the liking-it part... well, I like it as a player, but not as a DM). The OP has already been offered the shape-shifter variant and rejected it.

If you're going to keep all three of the druid's powers, then all three must be drastically reduced to be in line with existing classes.


it's really no worse than the cleric or, at higher levels, the wizard. Unless you're introducing a whole host of rules to knock those classes down a peg

Okay... you're right. The druid should be no more powerful than the wizard. So here's the druid, ala wizard:
HP: d4
Skills: 2+INT
Skill choice: Severely limited.
Animal companion: Tiny or Diminutive only
Animal companion powers: suck (see Familiar)
Armor allowed: None.
Weapons allowed: unchanged
Spell list: unchanged
Spells castable: unchanged*
* May only pick from 2 spells per level, and pay 100 gp/level for other spells. Must pass a skill check to learn any purchased spells. Must find, in game, other spells to buy.
Feats and powers: Get one extra feat per five levels, start play with one extra feat at first.
Wild Shape: GONE
Special druid level powers: GONE


I mean, you're right. Wizards are so powerful, we should make the druid as powerful as the wizard!

Suzaku
2007-01-18, 05:15 PM
Ah, no. That's a pretty bad fix. Two of their three abilities are nerfed into nigh-uselessness, and the third becomes useless a bit later on, or else isn't hurt that much.

With wildshape, you've taken away a few of their abuses, but what about plants, elementals, and so forth? Certainly, you can enforce familiarity about those as well, but now you've made things even harder on the DM, since he can't send a fair number of monsters against his party anymore, lest the druid figure out how to change into them.

Spellcasting is nigh useless. Of the spells left, many work only on animals, which the DM has to be very careful about sending after them (unless the druid already know them). Let's look at second level. They've lost all stat-boosting spells, arguably barkskin, fire trap, flame blade, flaming sphere, lesser restoration, chill metal, heat metal, soften earth and stone, spider climb, summon nature's ally II, and summon swarm. That's more than half the spell list. At spell level nine, they're left with antipathy, foresight, and sympathy. Maybe shapechange, if you limited it to animal and plant shapes.

The animal companion can no longer effectively be used. For one thing, what happens when the druid goes to sleep and his bear kills the sleeping wizard? For another, the animal companions that are going to be allowed in the city aren't going to be useful at later levels. You're left with horse, dog, pony or camel. Possibly a hawk. These are much less useful later on. This means that the druid has to make a choice between staying out in the woods or following the rest of the party into the city. Unless he has vow of poverty, that means the druid can no longer go looking for equipment to buy, unless he gives his "shopping list" to his buddies, and they're willing to help him out.

The druid needs to be nerfed, but your fix goes way too far the other direction, as well as making the game much more difficult for the DM.



Like I said before Gamebird wants to Leap attack with a 2handed Nerf Bat and critical hit druids.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:17 PM
I think my posts can speak for themselves. Your twisting/paraphrasing of what I've said is annoying and offensive.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-18, 05:27 PM
Uh, Game, maybe you're not aware of the fact that wizard spells kick druid spells' asses? Here's two core spells for each level: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Haste, Solid Fog, Enervation, Teleport, Wall of Force, Contingency, Disintegrate, Forcecage, Greater Arcane Sight, Mind Blank, Greater Shadow Evocation, Disjunction, Time Stop.
Druids got nothin' in comparison. They have a bunch of decent spells and some good ones, but they don't approach the wizard. The sor/wiz spell list IS the most powerful.

Jack Mann
2007-01-18, 05:31 PM
Okay, point, keeping all three means they all need to be weakened pretty far. I still think you took it down past the point of usability, but you're right that all three need some nerfing to keep them.

Thing about wizards is that they still have far superior spell lists to druids and clerics. Especially when they're limited to the PHB, but even outside of core, wizards still have better spells. What makes an archivist potentially overpowered is, to a large degree, their ability to learn spells that are more limited for divine casters, via domains or somewhat more obscure classes (as well as their ability to learn certain spells at a lower level).

By about the time they get seventh level spells, wizards start to pull ahead of cleric and druid in power (as measured by their effectiveness against encounters, not necessarily in a duel). Cleric and druid remain quite powerful, of course, but their spells don't measure up to a wizard's.

Now, if you're trying to pull down the classes to, say, fighter or even monk level, then by all means nerf. But a wizard with a druid's spell list is a far cry from a wizard with the sorceror/wizard spell list.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-18, 05:34 PM
Jack--I wouldn't say seventh. Wizards are still fragile then, unless they put a lot of their spell list into keeping themselves safe. At seventh, clerics and druids are even with'em. Druids have Natural Spell, clerics have Divine Power.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:39 PM
I agree that a wizard's PHB spell list is better than a druid's. However, a wizard is much more limited in which ones he can choose to cast on a given day. If the adventure calls for a spell the wizard didn't happen to learn, then he simply doesn't have it, has to go find it, has to buy it, has to learn it, and has to scribe it. A druid just memorizes a new spell. The wizard has to sleep for 8 hours. The druid doesn't.

Also, the Spell Compendium brings the druid's spell list up a great deal. Heck, they even get a druid version of Unseen Servant!

Suzaku
2007-01-18, 05:39 PM
Yes your post speak for themselves your suggestion are very similar to stereotype nerfers on online gaming. You over exaggerate everything about a certain class and under estimate other classes. You then suggest balance changes that are so far off balance you put the class opposite end in the balance scale. I'm willing to bet any games you DM no will be playing druids after seeing the suggestions you make. If you do have players who decide to play druids these are likely inexperienced players and would often feel worse then someone playing a 3.0 ranger in terms of power.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:41 PM
You remain annoying and offensive.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-18, 05:44 PM
I agree that a wizard's PHB spell list is better than a druid's. However, a wizard is much more limited in which ones he can choose to cast on a given day. If the adventure calls for a spell the wizard didn't happen to learn, then he simply doesn't have it, has to go find it, has to buy it, has to learn it, and has to scribe it. A druid just memorizes a new spell. The wizard has to sleep for 8 hours. The druid doesn't.
A wizard is fine with 2/level and the occasional scribed scroll. If he's happened to pick up Collegiate Wizard, he doesn't even need to scribe any scrolls.
The wizard's spell list is much, MUCH better. Saying "balancing the druid against the wizard would mean taking away wild shape and the animal companion, because they're both spellcasters and the wizard only gets spellcasting!" is completely disingenuous, not to mention flat-out wrong.


Also, the Spell Compendium brings the druid's spell list up a great deal. Heck, they even get a druid version of Unseen Servant!
And the Spell Compendium likewise ups a Wizard's spell list, not to mention that most of the druid's good SpC spells are buffs (Bite of the Werebear?). The wizard list remains vastly more effective both offense- and defense-wise. The druid could use nerfing, but scrapping wild shape and their animal companion plus limiting their spells known? That's not the way to do it.

Madmal
2007-01-18, 05:46 PM
"awesome nature magic"
First, develop a rigorous definition of "nature magic". Do away with all healing type spells. Do away with all direct damage spells. Do away with any spell that transforms anything into something else that's not a plant or animal. Do away with all summoning or extraplanar type spells.

soo...you think all those spells aren't "natural", i tend to disagree...


In my opinion, it's not so much that druids are overpowered, it's that they have a lot of room for cheese because they can use their class abilities to cover up the downsides to things that make their class abilities better, and things like that.

A reasonably played Druid I find to be quite balanced in a party.

i agree with this. Dragon magazine gave an article on readings with the Three dragon Ante deck for character creation:

"The druid represents balance, nature and finding strength in weakness"

...

another option is to make "Natural Spell" a feat for mid-leveled or high-leveled characters

krossbow
2007-01-18, 05:58 PM
Now, teh main problem here is that the players handbook II variant druid lacks the companion; the shifting has been solved pretty much.





If it's that big of a deal, just give them a ranger level animal companion at level 4.

Ravyn
2007-01-18, 05:59 PM
Re the hazards of Natural Spell: Why not have a limit to the size at which Natural Spell can be applied--like a size category or more below the druid's normal form? I understand the difficulties of it when the druid is wildshaping into something large and scary, but a druid in the shape of, say, a weasel isn't exactly that sort of accident waiting to happen. (I'll admit, I'm a bit biased; a concept I've always wanted to try out is a forest gnome druid so people-shy she spends all her time in wildshape pretending to be the party wizard's familiar.)

My fix would be to instate that, bump down the BAB a little further, create some sort of rule for learning wildshape forms. I'm inclined to introduce something similar to the Heart's Blood mechanic that Exalted puts in place for its shapeshifters, in which you have to have eaten the creature in question to gain its powers. Maybe not quite that drastic, but... why not require them to have a totem from a member of the species they're trying to emulate, a little carving with a hair or a bit of blood or what have you from the creature in question? Not only does it give them a limit, but it means you can mess with them by removing their totem belt the same way swiping a component pouch limits a caster.

And note the limitations on the animal companion; is it always going to think well enough to go for flanking if you haven't taught it a trick for that?

You could further limit them by dividing the druids into Earth, Life and Sky (for lack of better divisions); divide the spells accordingly, then require them to only cast from two of the above categories. (Fire and weather spells, for instance, would be sky, while animal-related spells and healing are Life and anything to do with rock and water is Earth. For the spontaneous SNA conversion, Earth druids can't summon flying things, Sky druids have to.)

How's that?

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 08:23 PM
All right righty then, I think I have a solution.

First, the spell list and spells per day will remain the same. Natural spell will have spell failure chance of 2% per hit die of the creature.

Second, wild shape is reduced to minutes per level and elemental and plants to rounds per level. Also, wild shape will require successful knowledge nature checks every time it is used. Say 10 plus creature hit dice.

Third, animal companions will require successful taming using handle animal and must be located by the druid not "summoned out of thin air. This will create dilemmas when the animal is to difficult to calm (Try taming a T-Rex).

There its not perfect but it does set limits on powers without getting rid of them and more importantly creates more role playing opportunities for a normaly uninvolved party member.

Kaerou
2007-01-18, 08:34 PM
I'll just quote myself from another thread:


As for Druids, i feel that they should be split into three variants. I dont feel that a universal dumping on shapeshifting is the answer.. the PHB2's 'fix' is just that if what i read is right, and the day i use those rules is the day i give up my 5 year old character, because they make absolutely zero sense. Why? Well, simple as: Its only destroyed all shapeshifting PrC's who gave up the far more powerful full spellcasting for a 'flavor ability'. Taking away someones AB is not the answer, it makes no sense.

So, i feel that they should have to choose a single variant. One, a shapeshifting variant, call it 'Natures Guardian' or whatever, has a d8HD, very minimal spellcasting (ranger style) and 3/4AB. Second, a 'Spellcasting variant' Full spellcasting, no wildshape and d6HD, third a 'Animal companion' variant 'Natures Ally' wich has a d8HD and gains better animal companions with bonuses at level up, a minimal set spellcasting progression (ranger style).

I know thats complicated, but frankly splitting it is the only fix for the 'everything in one' that 3rd edition see's. And heck, printing two extra sides in a book cant be that hard to do.

jjpickar
2007-01-18, 08:56 PM
That's neat but I want the druid to keep all three of the basics I described. I just want to balance it.
Just as a clarification the new rules for the animal companion leave the what, when, and how difficult it is to get said companion completely up to the DM. This way you won't be having T-Rex's in the Arctic or Polar Bears in a steaming jungle. Possibly even not having an animal companion at all in the city.

The DC and Failure chances need more tweaking but they serve as a guideline to making natural spell and wild the same but not nearly as reliable.

Yakk
2007-01-18, 10:11 PM
Limit Druids to creatures with HD less than or equal to their character level.

Limit Druids to wild shaping into local animals that they are aware of.

Grant physical stat modifiers equal to the stat bonus' of whatever shape they are changing into (ie, a 20/+5 strength bear grants +5 strength when shapechanged into a bear).

To learn an (Ex) ability or feat (ie, pounce) of an animal while wildshaped into it, it requires the expenditure of a feat. These wild feats are not useable in human normal form.

Druid BaB drops to Poor (same as a Wizard) in human form, and Average (same as before) in wild form.

All feats that boost wild shape are banned. Magical enchantments that allow item use while wild shaped are banned.

The Druid animal companion is considered a magical beast. All Damage done to the animal companion also delt to the Druid (and cannot be blocked). AOE spells that damage both instead do the max both would have recieved to the Druid.

No wearing gear that a natural animal of that kind wouldn't (-5 distraction penalty to attack, skill checks, attribute checks and AC if you are wearing unnatural gear for that animal, and it feels icky.)

Change heal spells to regenerations -- HP amount rolled (or current damage) is max amount healed, regen rate is spell level HP per combat round.

Ie:
L 3 spell: Regenerate Moderate Wounds (Originally Cure Moderate Wounds)
Regenerates up to 2d8+1 point per caster level (max +10) at a rate of 3 hp/combat round. Damage done after the spell is cast will not regenerate.

L 7 spell: Regenerate Completely (Originally Heal)
Regenerates up to 10 points per caster level at a rate of 7 HP/combat round, and all deseases and mental conditions. Damage done after the spell is cast will not regenerate.

Druids lose 1 spell/spell level and gain 1 use of "summons nature's ally" per spell level (ie, at L 1, they are 3/0+1). They can still spontaneously cast "summons nature's ally".

Druid bonus spells are determined by Intelligence, max spell level by Charisma, and spell resists by Wisdom.

Druids become spontaneous casters. Spells known is that of a Sorcerer 1 level higher.

All druid spells must be used "sympathetically with nature". Weather spells must be somewhat appropriate for the region, antipathy must be cast on an object that would naturally be "repugnant" to the creature type repelled, etc. Ie: casting Owl's Wisdom requires a living, breathing Owl be present.

Daylight producing spells can only be cast during the hours of day. They can, however, be cast underground.

Summon Nature's Ally and other spells that summon creatures has at least a 1 minute delay in "going off", and must be cast within a grove or wilderness. It takes longer if there is no way for the animals to "sneak up". The creatures seem to come out of the wildreness, at maximium perception range, and move towards the Druid. The creatures will passively follow you around for up to 1 hour/Druid level, not attacking anything, or until the Druid recovers spells. When activated the standard duration starts counting down. They can be activated if attacked/damaged, if they somehow attack something (ie, a swarms naseate effect goes off on someone), or if the druid manually activates them. Manually activating them requires the same casting time as it takes to cast the spell, and (even if the creatures cannot be commanded) includes the command to go to a targetted area before activating (see original spell for range).

Only 1 such summon spell may be left "idle" at any one time. Casting a second summoning spell immediately activates the first.

Spells directly summoning/becoming Elementals only work when "in their domain". A Fire Elemental summon might work within a forest fire, a water elemental summon near a river or at sea, an Air Elemental summon at the peak of a mountain or in a cloudcity, and an Earth elemental summon while in the depths of the earth.

Once the Domain is left, the summond or self-shaped Elemental powerless. A summoned Air Elemental (or shaped Air Elemental) cannot attack things touching the ground or water, an Earth Elemental cannot go below the open sky, Fire Elementals cannot leave the immediate area of a large inferno, Water Elementals cannot leave the water.

Storm-creation and Lightning-creation spells require longer to cast.
If there is no cloud cover, it requires at least 10 minutes to cast, during which storm clouds form and gather.
If there is cloud cover, it requires at least 1 minute to cast, during with the clouds thicken.
If there is already a storm, it requires the normal time to cast.

Similar restrictions apply to Earthquake.
If the area is geologically stable, 10 minutes.
If earthquakes can occur here, 1 minute.
If earthquakes have happened recently, standard casting time.

Magic Fang and Magic Fang, Greater are allowed to be cast while in animal form.

...

The goal here is to balance Druids against non-casters (and not even munckin x20 power attack damage non-casters!), not to balance Druids against casters. A L 17 wizard can cast "I win this fight" as a standard action. Basing the game balance off of that level isn't the way to go.

This Druid will still be able to call down the wrath of nature on someone. They just won't be demigods at it. Being in nature will significantly boost their power, and being aware of nature becomes key to using the abilities.

A Druid can wildshape into a Bear/Lion/etc, and with the right Feats be a decent melee combat character. They can even change into an Elemental at high levels, but they cannot leave their Element while so shaped -- a significant weakness that can be exploited by opponents.

As a bonus, this Druid is also pretty damn earie when looking for trouble.

"A man in hide armor walks out of the wood, carrying a staff. Behind him, a grizzly bear and a chittering mass of locusts flow out of the wood. The druid points at the logging camp with his staff, and the locusts move towards it..."

Suzaku
2007-01-18, 10:22 PM
Limit Druids to creatures with HD less than or equal to their character level.

Limit Druids to wild shaping into local animals that they are aware of.

Grant physical stat modifiers equal to the stat bonus' of whatever shape they are changing into (ie, a 20/+5 strength bear grants +5 strength when shapechanged into a bear).

To learn an (Ex) ability or feat (ie, pounce) of an animal while wildshaped into it, it requires the expenditure of a feat. These wild feats are not useable in human normal form.

Druid BaB drops to Poor (same as a Wizard) in human form, and Average (same as before) in wild form.

All feats that boost wild shape are banned. Magical enchantments that allow item use while wild shaped are banned.

The Druid animal companion is considered a magical beast. All Damage done to the animal companion also delt to the Druid (and cannot be blocked). AOE spells that damage both instead do the max both would have recieved to the Druid.

No wearing gear that a natural animal of that kind wouldn't (-5 distraction penalty to attack, skill checks, attribute checks and AC if you are wearing unnatural gear for that animal, and it feels icky.)

Change heal spells to regenerations -- HP amount rolled (or current damage) is max amount healed, regen rate is spell level HP per combat round.

Ie:
L 3 spell: Regenerate Moderate Wounds (Originally Cure Moderate Wounds)
Regenerates up to 2d8+1 point per caster level (max +10) at a rate of 3 hp/combat round. Damage done after the spell is cast will not regenerate.

L 7 spell: Regenerate Completely (Originally Heal)
Regenerates up to 10 points per caster level at a rate of 7 HP/combat round, and all deseases and mental conditions. Damage done after the spell is cast will not regenerate.

Druids lose 1 spell/spell level and gain 1 use of "summons nature's ally" per spell level (ie, at L 1, they are 3/0+1). They can still spontaneously cast "summons nature's ally".

Druid bonus spells are determined by Intelligence, max spell level by Charisma, and spell resists by Wisdom.

Druids become spontaneous casters. Spells known is that of a Sorcerer 1 level higher.

All druid spells must be used "sympathetically with nature". Weather spells must be somewhat appropriate for the region, antipathy must be cast on an object that would naturally be "repugnant" to the creature type repelled, etc. Ie: casting Owl's Wisdom requires a living, breathing Owl be present.

Daylight producing spells can only be cast during the hours of day. They can, however, be cast underground.

Summon Nature's Ally and other spells that summon creatures has at least a 1 minute delay in "going off", and must be cast within a grove or wilderness. It takes longer if there is no way for the animals to "sneak up". The creatures seem to come out of the wildreness, at maximium perception range, and move towards the Druid. The creatures will passively follow you around for up to 1 hour/Druid level, not attacking anything, or until the Druid recovers spells. When activated the standard duration starts counting down. They can be activated if attacked/damaged, if they somehow attack something (ie, a swarms naseate effect goes off on someone), or if the druid manually activates them. Manually activating them requires the same casting time as it takes to cast the spell, and (even if the creatures cannot be commanded) includes the command to go to a targetted area before activating (see original spell for range).

Only 1 such summon spell may be left "idle" at any one time. Casting a second summoning spell immediately activates the first.

Spells directly summoning/becoming Elementals only work when "in their domain". A Fire Elemental summon might work within a forest fire, a water elemental summon near a river or at sea, an Air Elemental summon at the peak of a mountain or in a cloudcity, and an Earth elemental summon while in the depths of the earth.

Once the Domain is left, the summond or self-shaped Elemental powerless. A summoned Air Elemental (or shaped Air Elemental) cannot attack things touching the ground or water, an Earth Elemental cannot go below the open sky, Fire Elementals cannot leave the immediate area of a large inferno, Water Elementals cannot leave the water.

Storm-creation and Lightning-creation spells require longer to cast.
If there is no cloud cover, it requires at least 10 minutes to cast, during which storm clouds form and gather.
If there is cloud cover, it requires at least 1 minute to cast, during with the clouds thicken.
If there is already a storm, it requires the normal time to cast.

Similar restrictions apply to Earthquake.
If the area is geologically stable, 10 minutes.
If earthquakes can occur here, 1 minute.
If earthquakes have happened recently, standard casting time.

Magic Fang and Magic Fang, Greater are allowed to be cast while in animal form.

...

The goal here is to balance Druids against non-casters (and not even munckin x20 power attack damage non-casters!), not to balance Druids against casters. A L 17 wizard can cast "I win this fight" as a standard action. Basing the game balance off of that level isn't the way to go.

This Druid will still be able to call down the wrath of nature on someone. They just won't be demigods at it. Being in nature will significantly boost their power, and being aware of nature becomes key to using the abilities.

A Druid can wildshape into a Bear/Lion/etc, and with the right Feats be a decent melee combat character. They can even change into an Elemental at high levels, but they cannot leave their Element while so shaped -- a significant weakness that can be exploited by opponents.

As a bonus, this Druid is also pretty damn earie when looking for trouble.

"A man in hide armor walks out of the wood, carrying a staff. Behind him, a grizzly bear and a chittering mass of locusts flow out of the wood. The druid points at the logging camp with his staff, and the locusts move towards it..."
:smallsigh: How many nerf bats did you break on the Druid, this is even worse then Gamebird's "Fix".

krossbow
2007-01-18, 10:25 PM
As a bonus, this Druid is also pretty damn earie when looking for trouble.

"A man in hide armor walks out of the wood, carrying a staff. Behind him, a grizzly bear and a chittering mass of locusts flow out of the wood. The druid points at the logging camp with his staff, and the locusts move towards it..."


"The Gnome with a flame thrower and the mage with gust of wind destroy the swarm; meanwhile the druid falls over clutching his stomach as the fighter kills the grizzly. After throughly humiliating him, the party heads back in to play a game of parcheesi"
________
Herbal Vape (http://vaporizer.org/)

Mewtarthio
2007-01-18, 11:05 PM
Why does the Druid suffer damage dealt to the Animal Companion? There's no mystical link, as in the Familiar (beyond the ability to quickly handle it): It's just an ordinary animal with lots of tricks and bonus HD.

Yakk
2007-01-19, 12:38 AM
So, you have gnomes with flame throwers, and wizards (who I have already admitted are not what I'm balancing at) backing up a fighter.

The druid should be balanced against an equal level fighter. So, lets see who would win -- a L 7 PHB I fighter, or a L 7 Druid as designed above?

A grizzly is a CR 4 critter, and is a companion for a L 7 druid. When the grizzly becomes a companion to the druid, it gains the magical beast type.

This upgrades the Grizzly's HPs by ~6 and ups the BaB from +4 to +6/+1.

So 57 HP, claw +13 melee (1d8+8 damage), full attack +13 (1d8+8)x2 +8(2d6+4), +18 grapple, improved grab (free grapple if it hits you).

A L 7 fighter with 16(18) str 14 con 12 dex with a +1 greatsword has +12/+7 to hit for 2d6+7 per swing and 54 HP, and 7 feats (+1 if human) to upgrade himself. Let's go with Power Attack, Focus/Weapon Spec, Improved Trip, Leap Attack, Iron Will, and Cleave. PHB 1 feats, to avoid cheese, plus leap attack, for some bonus power.
+13/+8 @ 2d6+9 per swing.

The Fighter only has a +11 Grapple mod, compared to the Bear's +18.

The Bear does more damage, has more HP, but has a lower AC (only 15 -- fighter probably has about 20 AC). If the Bear makes contact with the fighter, the fighter is likely to be quickly incapacitated by grappling.

So the animal companion of the L 7 druid, designed above, is nearly a match for a L 7 fighter. The druid could transform into another animal to help out the bear, or she could start blasting away at the fighter and healing the pet.

On top of that, the L 7 druid is likely to have one set of summoned creatures on ready to activate.

Note that the Druid can cast a regen on herself and get both herself and her companion healed (Link special ability).

I don't see how the Fighter is significantly more powerful than the Druid. In a stand-up fight, the Druid may just win -- and the Druid has lots of useful tricks that the Fighter lacks (say, turning into a bird, healing wounds, Reincarnating dead allies...)

Yes, if your benchmark is a 3.5 Wizard, the Druid I detailed is rather gimp. But, as I've mentioned, if your benchmark is a 3.5 Wizard, all classes should be able to win nearly any fight at L 17 with a standard action.

Kaerou
2007-01-19, 01:34 AM
That's neat but I want the druid to keep all three of the basics I described. I just want to balance it.

I feel you cant have everything and keep it balanced without leaving each thing horribly weak for what its supposed to be.

Each one of these things is powerful enough to be a class ability focus on its own.

MrNexx
2007-01-19, 01:37 AM
First, the spell list and spells per day will remain the same. Natural spell will have spell failure chance of 2% per hit die of the creature.

So it reduces in utility as they choose more powerful forms? Interesting option.


Second, wild shape is reduced to minutes per level and elemental and plants to rounds per level. Also, wild shape will require successful knowledge nature checks every time it is used. Say 10 plus creature hit dice.

The DC here is irrelevant. An 8 intelligence Druid who maxxes out Knowledge: Nature will have an average check of Level + 12. It takes a 5 intelligence before they have a reasonable chance of just making it on a take 10, if they have full ranks in Knowledge Nature.


Third, animal companions will require successful taming using handle animal and must be located by the druid not "summoned out of thin air. This will create dilemmas when the animal is to difficult to calm (Try taming a T-Rex).

Most of this can be overcome via spells. Sure, the magic will wear off, but that doesn't mean instant hostility.


There its not perfect but it does set limits on powers without getting rid of them and more importantly creates more role playing opportunities for a normaly uninvolved party member.

The main reason your druid has been uninvolved is because he's only tangentially involved in the quest and his main interest has been in assaulting gardeners for trimming the grass, rather than looking into the pervasiveness of the cult of Vecna.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 02:20 AM
So, you have gnomes with flame throwers, and wizards (who I have already admitted are not what I'm balancing at) backing up a fighter.

The druid should be balanced against an equal level fighter. So, lets see who would win -- a L 7 PHB I fighter, or a L 7 Druid as designed above?

A grizzly is a CR 4 critter, and is a companion for a L 7 druid. When the grizzly becomes a companion to the druid, it gains the magical beast type.

This upgrades the Grizzly's HPs by ~6 and ups the BaB from +4 to +6/+1.

So 57 HP, claw +13 melee (1d8+8 damage), full attack +13 (1d8+8)x2 +8(2d6+4), +18 grapple, improved grab (free grapple if it hits you).

A L 7 fighter with 16(18) str 14 con 12 dex with a +1 greatsword has +12/+7 to hit for 2d6+7 per swing and 54 HP, and 7 feats (+1 if human) to upgrade himself. Let's go with Power Attack, Focus/Weapon Spec, Improved Trip, Leap Attack, Iron Will, and Cleave. PHB 1 feats, to avoid cheese, plus leap attack, for some bonus power.
+13/+8 @ 2d6+9 per swing.

The Fighter only has a +11 Grapple mod, compared to the Bear's +18.

The Bear does more damage, has more HP, but has a lower AC (only 15 -- fighter probably has about 20 AC). If the Bear makes contact with the fighter, the fighter is likely to be quickly incapacitated by grappling.

So the animal companion of the L 7 druid, designed above, is nearly a match for a L 7 fighter. The druid could transform into another animal to help out the bear, or she could start blasting away at the fighter and healing the pet.

On top of that, the L 7 druid is likely to have one set of summoned creatures on ready to activate.

Note that the Druid can cast a regen on herself and get both herself and her companion healed (Link special ability).

I don't see how the Fighter is significantly more powerful than the Druid. In a stand-up fight, the Druid may just win -- and the Druid has lots of useful tricks that the Fighter lacks (say, turning into a bird, healing wounds, Reincarnating dead allies...)

Yes, if your benchmark is a 3.5 Wizard, the Druid I detailed is rather gimp. But, as I've mentioned, if your benchmark is a 3.5 Wizard, all classes should be able to win nearly any fight at L 17 with a standard action.

You're so wrong replace improve trip with improved grapple here the reason Fighter leap onto the Bear or Druid with all 7 base attack to do a leap attack on the druid on the black bear will give the fighter a +7 hit meaning you only need an 8 to hit. After connecting will do a minimum of 32 damage (21 from leap attack, 6 from str on two handed weapon +1 from magic weapon damage +2 from weapon spec +2 from minimum damage roll from great sword). An average hp roll with 14 con would give druid an average hp of 49 and 56 if his con is 16. This leaves the druid with 24-17 hp left.

Now the difference between grapple modifier is just +3 meaning there still good chance in breaking in the grapple after that you can power attack once again this time deciding on -5 to hit instead. This means a minimum of 21 points of damage and then on second attack if you roll a 13 to hit congrats you just did another 21 damage.

Now remember this minimum damage I'm talking about. If you talk about critical hits things could get nasty maybe even one shot the druids. If druid buffs his pets fighter should also be able to spend resources on buffing himself.

Ravyn
2007-01-19, 02:41 AM
I still maintain that it might make sense to mechanically encourage druids to pick smaller wild forms... hence my suggestion on how to mod Natural Spell. (Of course, given the hazards of being Post 30....) And I continue to think that a totem mechanic would provide both a useful limitation in two senses... and a convenient source of plot hooks. "You want to shape into this? All right.... in the forests far to the east, where...." If they're going to have the potential to be utterly absurd, why not get some story out of it?

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 10:07 AM
Okay, we've more or less dealt with natural spell. Either take it out entirely or give it some limitation like spell failure or restriction to certain forms (monkeys only hmmmm).

Wild shape still seems to be a problem, though I did like the totem idea. How a bout considering the NWN fix. There is only a specific list available for wild shape in that game, you gain access to all the forms but never get new ones. Or, to build on post 30, (it's not hazardous here) you could seperate wild shape forms into categories and have each druid select one. If you select one you lose access to all of the others. You could even consider putting a vermin category in there since if the players pick it they won't be able to use dire bears and eagles but can sneak around as rats or eventually become giant spiders.

The NWN method would work even better on animal companions. By restricting the lists even further you could still have the animal companion just not a dominating one. Maybe taking out all dire animals and dinosaurs. Also, I like the idea of making it harder to give your animal commands and while I know there are spells out there to bypass skill checks and tricks, it ensures that they have to sacrifice combat or utility spell to get their companion to flank an enemy.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 10:38 AM
Saying "balancing the druid against the wizard would mean taking away wild shape and the animal companion, because they're both spellcasters and the wizard only gets spellcasting!" is completely disingenuous, not to mention flat-out wrong.

I didn't say that. A druid balanced against a wizard would still have a highly nerfed animal companion. Wizards have a few important holes in their repetoire as well - healing being a biggie. I don't feel a wizard's spell list is as superior as you say. But maybe I just haven't seen a good wizard/druid match-up. I know in the tabletop game I played in, the druid had my wizard pwned on spells from the get-go. I played a good back-up and had some nifty things he didn't like Permanency and Contingency, but in direct damage the druid did a lot more than the wizard did. (This also in a game where the DM sumo-squatted on battlefield control.)


soo...you think all those spells aren't "natural", i tend to disagree...

Yeah, a running joke around our table was all the things that were "natural":
"Poison is natural because snakes have poison."
"Cometfall is natural because rocks really do fall out of the sky."
"Changing into a bear is natural because bears are natural."
"Changing into a water elemental is natural because... uh... are water elementals natural? They have to be."
"Bringing back the dead in the form of little nature critters is natural because... um... well... they're nature critters."

and so on. The thing is, you can define virtually anything as "natural". Just listen to bigots carry on about how mixing the races isn't "natural" or being other than heterosexual isn't "natural". "Natural" has become a synonym for "the way I think things should be". If you think a druid should be able to cast a certain spell, then surely you think the spell's effect is "natural".


I'm inclined to introduce something similar to the Heart's Blood mechanic that Exalted puts in place for its shapeshifters, in which you have to have eaten the creature in question to gain its powers. Maybe not quite that drastic, but... why not require them to have a totem from a member of the species they're trying to emulate, a little carving with a hair or a bit of blood or what have you from the creature in question? Not only does it give them a limit, but it means you can mess with them by removing their totem belt the same way swiping a component pouch limits a caster.

Good ideas. I like them.


And note the limitations on the animal companion; is it always going to think well enough to go for flanking if you haven't taught it a trick for that?

I would assume it would have to be taught, unless it was a species that had an instinctive tendency to flank opposite a pack member - like a wolf or dog. I wouldn't let a bear flank without a specific trick, the druid moving in to flank after the bear attacked, or the occasional accident of positioning.


All right righty then, I think I have a solution.

First, the spell list and spells per day will remain the same. Natural spell will have spell failure chance of 2% per hit die of the creature.

Second, wild shape is reduced to minutes per level and elemental and plants to rounds per level. Also, wild shape will require successful knowledge nature checks every time it is used. Say 10 plus creature hit dice.

Third, animal companions will require successful taming using handle animal and must be located by the druid not "summoned out of thin air. This will create dilemmas when the animal is to difficult to calm (Try taming a T-Rex).

There its not perfect but it does set limits on powers without getting rid of them and more importantly creates more role playing opportunities for a normaly uninvolved party member.

I would say ditch the percentage chance on Natural Spell. Either keep the feat or toss it. Another option would be to increase casting time of all spells while Wild Shaped/Natural spelled to full round actions.

I like the limit on wild shape time. One of the problems with it is how long it lasts. I would also ditch the healing/change, but that's me.

I agree with MrNexx that a druid's nature-loving fluff doesn't match the majority of adventures. There's usually little reason for the druid to be tagging along. The reasons I've heard a lot of are generally contrived - the most common being "I'm getting more powerful so I can be a better guardian of nature after a retire from adventuring" and "I'm kind of racking up favors with these guys, so if my grove is ever threatened, I can call on them to help me." Bleh. Suck reasons.


:smallsigh: How many nerf bats did you break on the Druid, this is even worse then Gamebird's "Fix".

LOL. And you thought I was bad!


I feel you cant have everything and keep it balanced without leaving each thing horribly weak for what its supposed to be.

Each one of these things is powerful enough to be a class ability focus on its own.

I agree. If we had a system without the druid and someone said "Hey, check out this new core class I made", they'd get the boop nerfed out of it - most likely torn apart.


You're so wrong ...

Blah, blah, blah, fighter stuff. Sure, Leap Attack. Ri-ight. Note the druid Yakk presented is entirely core other than his changes to the class. If we're allowed to cheese-out these hypothetical warriors then the druid can be cheesed up plenty himself. Stick to a core Fighter, Suzaku. Otherwise it's not a fair fight. If you have to reach for non-core to make a Fighter stand up to an equal level Druid, then you've proven Yakk's point.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 10:43 AM
I didn't say that. A druid balanced against a wizard would still have a highly nerfed animal companion. Wizards have a few important holes in their repetoire as well - healing being a biggie. I don't feel a wizard's spell list is as superior as you say. But maybe I just haven't seen a good wizard/druid match-up. I know in the tabletop game I played in, the druid had my wizard pwned on spells from the get-go. I played a good back-up and had some nifty things he didn't like Permanency and Contingency, but in direct damage the druid did a lot more than the wizard did. (This also in a game where the DM sumo-squatted on battlefield control.)

...so you were doing direct damage (the wizard's weakest tactic) and having all your good options squished by the DM. Also, you aparently weren't doing as good a job of being a spellcaster--what was he outdamaging you with, Lightning Storm? Scorching Ray and the like should've kept you right up there.
And therefore, you conclude, the Druid and Wizard spell list are pretty close in power.
Yeah, um. Not--not so much, no.

Druids are balanced against wizards as things stand. Both Win D&D, as the phrase goes.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 10:51 AM
...so you were doing direct damage (the wizard's weakest tactic) and having all your good options squished by the DM. Also, you aparently weren't doing as good a job of being a spellcaster--what was he outdamaging you with, Lightning Storm? Scorching Ray and the like should've kept you right up there.
And therefore, you conclude, the Druid and Wizard spell list are pretty close in power.
Yeah, um. Not--not so much, no.

Druids are balanced against wizards as things stand. Both Win D&D, as the phrase goes.

I agree with that last. My main problem was having no shapeable direct damage spells. He used Firestorm to great effect against mobs, Cometfall (at higher levels) against single bad guys. I had Disintegrate, but even though I cast it probably 10-15 times in the campaign, the only thing that ever failed its save was doors (yes, even the doors got saves sometimes - I know it wasn't RAW). Eh, the DM had a lot of wonky rulings.

I agree that battlefield control is the wizard's strong suit, but druids don't exactly suck in that department either.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 10:58 AM
I agree with that last. My main problem was having no shapeable direct damage spells. He used Firestorm to great effect against mobs, Cometfall (at higher levels) against single bad guys. I had Disintegrate, but even though I cast it probably 10-15 times in the campaign, the only thing that ever failed its save was doors (yes, even the doors got saves sometimes - I know it wasn't RAW). Eh, the DM had a lot of wonky rulings.
Mobs? Delayed Blast Fireball, Chain Lightning, Horrid Wilting, Empowered Cone of Cold (cast straight down while flying to make a circle on the ground)... more stuff if non-core was in. Other than Firestorm, the druid has Fire Seeds, Flamestrike, and the lightning storms. It's not that much, and mobs shouldn't be much of an issue at any rate. Against single bad guys, you have lots of options, from Polar Ray (no save) to Bigby's Hands to Telekinesis to metamagicked-up Scorching Rays.
Druids can eventually blast almost as well as wizards, but if he was blasting, he wasn't being as effective as he could be (then again, neither were you).


I agree that battlefield control is the wizard's strong suit, but druids don't exactly suck in that department either.Yeah, they get Entangle and... um...
Um.
Also, they get...
Yeah.
(To be fair, Whirlwind is okay, and Control Winds is great.)

Wizards get more and better Walls, they get various Fogs (Solid is awesome), they get Scintillating Pattern, they get debuffs like Glitterdust and Slow, et cetera.


The druid spell list is significantly weaker than the wizard's. It's meant to be. To compensate, they get Wild Shape and an animal companion.
An unoptimized druid is stronger than an unoptimized wizard, but when optimized, they're about equal, and the wizard's a lot better at disabling/killing things.

Yakk
2007-01-19, 10:59 AM
First, that Fighter is likely to miss one of his two power attacks.

Second, the Bear moves faster than the Fighter. The Bear could easily get to charge the Fighter instead of the other way around.

Third, the Fighter has 20 AC. Bear has +13/+13/+8 to hit -- +2 if flanking (via druid and/or druids summoned minions). Average damage, if everything hits, is 36. If 2/3 of that damage connects, that is 24 damage.

Two free grapple attempts at +3 -- about 85% chance the fighter is grappled when the fighter gets to go.

Now what does the fighter do? He only has 2 attacks, and has to burn his highest BaB attack to try to break free, and only has a 40% chance of doing so. He can't risk activating power attack, because that reduces his ability to break free of a grapple!

Meanwhile, the Druid could toss a regeneration out there (@ ~4 hp/round), or blast the fighter directly.

Then there is the Summon Nature's Ally 4 spell that the Druid who isn't an idiot will have in reserve. A second brown bear is on that list.

But, to be fair, let's restrict the druid to a Ally 3, which she has many uses/day of (or better). A Dire Wolf is another large animal. It does ~15 damage/round, gets a free trip attempt on successful attacks (@+11), and has 45 HP.

The Druid can change into, say, a leopard, get a significant melee stat boost and some nice natural weapons (and rather insane abilities if the Druid spent a feat or two on it).

So now the Fighter gets to fight a Dire Wolf, a Grizzly bear, and a Druid shape-changed into a Great Cat.

Every round the Fighter loses 1 or 2 attacks to breaking free of the Grizzly's grab. All opponents have flanking on the Fighter. The Fighter risks being knocked over every round from the Wolf's trip attack.

But practically, the Druid should sit out of it. Cast magic fang, regenerate moderate wounds, and maybe Enlarge Vermin (to throw more combatants at the Fighter).
Average damage (including druid in leopard form for completeness):
36 (Bear) @ +15/+15/+10 (~24 average damage vs AC 20)
10 (Druid) @ +8 (~5 average damage vs AC 20)
14 (Wolf) @ +11 (~8 average damage vs AC 20)

32, or 37 with Druid engaged, average damage per round.

So the Fighter has to win within about 2 rounds or get slaughtered. The fighter gets grappled 2-3 times per turn with a ~65% chance of costing the fighter 1 or more actions per attempt, gets tripped 0-1 times per turn (~65% chance of knocking the fighter to the ground, screwing him).

So the Fighter gets one attack at -5 with his 2HS per turn, he is tactically locked down by 2 animals flanking him, will probably be tripped at least once. If he charges, the bear gets a full attack and the wolf gets a charge attack, taking off more than half his HP, entangling him in a grapple, and maybe knocking him off his feet!

So round 2. The druid has 21 HP left (he cast a Regenerate Moderate Wounds on himself & his Bear). The Fighter is down to 22 HP, is tripped and grappled, with a Dire Wolf flanking him and a Grizzly Bear in front of him.

You cannot get up from prone while grappled (it isn't on the list of actions), so the Fighter must first break out of the grapple (40% chance of success, costs his highest BaB move). Assume the fighter gets lucky, he is now prone. He can either stay prone and have another attack at -9, or get up and provoke an AoO from both the Wolf and the Bear (which would do, on average, about 15 damage -- bringing the fighter down to 7 HP).

Then the Bear and Wolf and Druid get to attack again. The Fighter is dead.

Even if not tripped in the first combat round, the Fighter is flanked between two nasty animals, and had to waste his best attack (and get lucky) getting out of the Bear's grapple. So the Fighter gets one charge and one attack at -5 to hit to win the fight before being slaughtered.

And remember, this should be an even fight at worse. The druid has lots of non-direct-combat utility (from healing, to being about to scout out the enemy in the form of a hawk, summon a stormclouds and call lightning down on a fixed position, communicate with animals/plants, lots of skill points) that a fighter simply lacks.

And the "gimped" Druid I wrote is still winning the fight.

If the fighter wins the fight, he'll be crippled and nearly out of HP.

If the Druid wins the fight, she'll be able to cast a few regeneration spells and top off both her and her bear's HP. She only used a 3rd level summon spell on the above fight (because 2 bears vs a L 7 fighter would slaughter the fighter), so is perfectly capable of engaging and defeating another L 7 fighter in about 10 minutes.

Again, how again isn't this equal-level Druid a pretty damn deadly challenge for a fighter in a stand up fight?

Indon
2007-01-19, 11:01 AM
You know...

...you all could just not let your players powergame.

The Druid is a strong, flavorful, well-balanced class if you don't have people actively trying to violate the spirit of your game by abusing mechanics. I feel that any change to the class to remove any possibility of mechanics abuse, or to change the class such that you would _have_ to maximize the potential of the class for druids to be able to contribute in a group, can be nothing but harmful to the roleplaying aspect of the game, as beneficial as it may be to the rollplaying aspect.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 11:01 AM
Umm gamebird remove leap attack only removes a 7 damage in which case the Fighter doesn't have to charge then. Because the low AC and damage connection of the animal companion lots of damage is going to be soaked up on the Druid. Also if you look at the spell replacement he won't be able heal the damage damage unless you continuous cast regenerate. 3 Hp per round is nothing in combat creatures will far exceed that heal rate.

In a party casting regenerate will only be useful outside of combat on other party members and it's same exact heal of cure moderate. If some thing critical hits the fighter and he's really hurt that 3 hp per round will not sustain as much as instant heal of Cure Moderate wounds because the battle is still raging and can get hit once again before fight is over (note please note you can replace critical hits with multiple hits from different rounds or from full attack).

Since I have to goto work I won't get started on other changes.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:14 AM
You know...

...you all could just not let your players powergame.

The Druid is a strong, flavorful, well-balanced class if you don't have people actively trying to violate the spirit of your game by abusing mechanics.

No. It's NOT.

Without ANY abuse, by the strictest interpretation of the rules, the druid is way too powerful. The druid is MEANT to turn into a bear and have another bear as a companion. The druid is MEANT to take Natural Spell and cast spells during this. This is what the class was designed for. You don't have to powergame; you don't even have to do anything tricky. You just have to not actively nerf yourself.
And it's just too good.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 11:36 AM
One problem I spot with this druid vs. fighter example is the fact that it assumes this takes place on the druid's home turf (the wilderness). In town the druid may not even be able to bring his animal companion, and if he does, the town watch would probably show up to get rid of this wild animal running loose on the streets. In an underground environment (assuming the druid can convince his companion to follow him in in the first place) the tunnels might narrow to encumber any large creatures, giving the fighter the advantage. On top of all this much of the druid's advantage comes from his bear grappling the fighter, but what if the fighter is wearing spiked armor? Suddenly the fight is much more even.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:38 AM
In town, the Druid can turn into a bird. And fly away. And then cast Lightning Storm and pummel the fighter with lightning bolts that kill him in the face, whenever he ventures outside.

Spiked armor won't help the fighter against the bear (the very buffable bear. Animal Growth, anyone?) very much.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 11:40 AM
But will the bear willingly grapple someone covered in spikes?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:41 AM
Yes. Yes, it will. It's been trained to. "Somebody covered in spikes" is no scarier than "something with fangs and claws".

Indon
2007-01-19, 11:44 AM
In town, the Druid can turn into a bird. And fly away. And then cast Lightning Storm and pummel the fighter with lightning bolts that kill him in the face, whenever he ventures outside.


You are playing in a universe where druids can attack cities without worrying about consequences, then?

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 11:45 AM
Remember it's a bear, not a PC. It is not going to think, "Hey, armor spikes don't do that much damage, I can impale myself on them to take away the fighter's options and do more damage on average than he can in a grapple."

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:50 AM
You are playing in a universe where druids can attack cities without worrying about consequences, then?

What druids? What cities? It's a bird perched on a chimney. It's a sudden storm. Just weather. And, man, that fighter must have displeased a storm god.

Or, you know, the druid could just wait for the fighter to leave.

What's your point, here? That the fighter can beat the druid by... running away into a city?


Edit: it's a bear, not a PC. It sees a pointy guy, not too different from pointy monsters. It is trained to grab and bite and claws, so it grabs and bites and claws. If it gets a little hurt, it gets angry.
And you wouldn't like it when it's angry.

Hulkbears: and you thought owlbears were bad!

Indon
2007-01-19, 11:52 AM
Remember it's a bear, not a PC. It is not going to think, "Hey, armor spikes don't do that much damage, I can impale myself on them to take away the fighter's options and do more damage on average than he can in a grapple."

Well, the Druid could teach its' companion a "Grapple" trick, and then get it to do it that way even if it doesn't grapple on "Attack".

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:57 AM
It does grapple on attack. That's what Improved Grab is.

Indon
2007-01-19, 11:57 AM
What's your point, here? That the fighter can beat the druid by... running away into a city?


And the Druid could beat the Fighter by ambushing him after casting prepatory spells for multiple rounds. Circumstance has a much larger impact on character effectiveness than any supposed 'base power' of a class, something which is true in even the encounter-based world of even the most gaming-heavy dungeon crawler D&D campaign.

Edit: Though, you'd definitely have a point were D&D a tournament-style PvP boardgame.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 11:59 AM
And the Druid could beat the Fighter by ambushing him after casting prepatory spells for multiple rounds. Circumstance has a much larger impact on character effectiveness than any supposed 'base power' of a class, something which is true in even the encounter-based world of even the most gaming-heavy dungeon crawler D&D campaign.

You seem to be forgetting that running away does not equal winning. In fact, if the fighter runs away, the druid gets XP.

The druid doesn't need buff rounds. If he's for some reason in human form, he just needs a standard action and he's good to go; any short-term buffs (Greater Magic Fang and the like are hours/level and are cast in the morning) are Humiliation Icing on the Ownage Cake

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 12:32 PM
Also underground in a dungeon, castle or somewhere where there no wilderness after activating Summon Nature's Ally do you really think the party is going to let the druid go off and start casting an other summon nature's ally? Any intelligent creatures with enough knowledge or one of he goons could know/learn different class weakness and groups depend on casters. What better way to get rid of a caster and mage is by attacking a low AC melee target that's already in the fray.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 12:32 PM
This is very funny, watching people try (badly) to prove that core druids can't take fighters in an equal level match.

Remember also that the druid being discussed as been nerfed even more badly than I was going to nerf them, at least according to Suzaku.

Yakk
2007-01-19, 12:49 PM
In town, the Druid can turn into a bird. And fly away. And then cast Lightning Storm and pummel the fighter with lightning bolts that kill him in the face, whenever he ventures outside.

Spiked armor won't help the fighter against the bear (the very buffable bear. Animal Growth, anyone?) very much.

Animal Growth doesn't work on Magical Beasts. I upgraded the animal companion of the Bear to a Magical Beast (+1 hp/HD, full BaB), which also makes the companion no longer effected by lots of animal buffing spells.

As for armor spikes -- by RAW, they don't damage people who grapple you. They only deal damage when you succeed at a grapple check. Ie, they increase your grapple damage from your normal non-leathal unarmed damage to 1d6 lethal piercing damage.

Given how cheesy they are (off hand attack when using a 2H weapon @_@), I'd personally treat them very tight on RAW, or change them.

As for scaring the bear -- this is a Grizzly, not a Doggie.

It has no preditors, short of magical beasts and human heros.

Humanity is something to be swatted away. Crowds of humans are strange, and usually places to be avoided.

The response of an alpha predator to damage is to get mad, and kill whatever hurt it.

The situation in question was the Druid, at the edge of a Druidic place (forest, entering a clearing), with standard (hours/level) spells up (a pre-summoned ally -- not even the best one the druid can summon!)

And the Fighter was tromped.

Now, the Druid who was ambushing the fighter could do some serious damage. Grass that tears up the Fighter's feet, vines traps that immobalize the fighter, pre-summoning a storm and calling lightning down on the fighter, summoning an earth elemental to attack the fighter indoors...

Some more errata to my "gimped, yet stronger than an equal-level fighter" druid:
The stat boost from changing forms is considered an enhancement bonus to stats. Buffs (like Bull's strength) do not stack with it.

Maybe reduce the co-damage the druid suffers from when his animal companion is hurt to 1 for every 2 points of damage the companion takes. This means the druid is likely to survive his animal companion being killed, but it will hurt.

Note that using Summon Nature's Ally to call an elemental, or any other elemental summoning spell, does not generate a delay beyond RAW. The elementals are, however, restricted to affecting things within their environment: air elementals cannot attack things touching the ground (although, they can prepare an action against someone leap attacking...), earth elementals cannot attack beings under the open sky, water elementals cannot leave their body of water or attack people outside of it, fire elementals are restricted to being within a large burning area/lava/etc.

...

Yes, the regeneration spells are designed to be of limited usefulness within combat. It is better than removing them completely, however, and leaves the druid with limited combat healing and good downtime healing.

In order to balance every class against the PBHI fighter, you'll have to do some serious work on most pure spellcasters.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 12:52 PM
Yakk--it doesn't matter if a character could whomp an equal-level fighter. The issue is monsters, balance-wise.

For a magic system balanced against fighter types, see Arcana Evolved by Monte Cook. It's like normal D&D magic, only with a few small differences--and balanced.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 12:54 PM
There's a lot more possible monsters out there than core classes. Also, monsters aren't supposed to be "balanced" against the PC's abilities. That's why they have different CRs - meaning they're believed balanced against a certain level of PC party, but not necessarily against other levels.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 01:36 PM
In PVE explain to me how are they balanced (which the classes should be balanced for anyway). All their damage will come from melee and virtually no spell casting of any kind besides buffs (Which bards blow them out of the water in) and no healing capabilities. Summon nature's ally is effectively once per day use in a non wilderness environment which is majority of the combats are in. Yes you can cast call lightning before a battle but it's only going to last 1 minute/level.

Not mention all the buffs you cast on yourself will be stripped away from on the animal companion once it leaves 5ft from you effectively leaving only yourself buffed. Since killing your animal companion also means killing you intelligent creatures would go after your low ac friend (two for price of one). As for mobs with damage reduction good luck hitting anything with that sliver/cold iron/ admantine(sp?) weapon of yours with a poor bab.


Even if you do have a damage spell ready and able to be cast the save DC will be very low because of 3 stats you have to balance out. Speaking of DC any spell effects both the druid and animal companion will be a free maximized spell (again your animal companion will probably be close to you because of your shared spells).

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 02:17 PM
We haven't even gotten into any of the magic items that the fighter might be carrying, potions he might drink before battle, etc. If anything goes, what if the fighter is a monstrous race? What if he is a large-sized race (or a half-giant, which is treated as large for the purposes of grappling)? What if he uses an undead class from the Libris Mortis? What if he's a Thri-Keen using two greatswords? What if he went full armor, with an enchanted tower shield? The problem with the original comparison is that it compares a power-gaming druid in favorable conditions against a standard human fighter in unfavorable conditions. If you look at all the fighter builds there are out there, and assume that anything published in a licenced D&D book is allowed, surely you can find plenty of scenarios where the fighter comes out on top easily. Also, you can pay to have a wizard cast enlarge person on you, then pay to have him cast permanency on the enlarge person.

Maclav
2007-01-19, 02:36 PM
Actually it takes a very poor core only druid and put it against a very standard, core only fighter in a very normal sort of encounter.

If you start wandering off into the realms of Thri-Keen and undead, you are opening up a humongous door which the druid will exploit in a much more powerful and effective fashion.


We haven't even gotten into any of the magic items that the fighter might be carrying, potions he might drink before battle, etc. If anything goes, what if the fighter is a monstrous race? What if he is a large-sized race (or a half-giant, which is treated as large for the purposes of grappling)? What if he uses an undead class from the Libris Mortis? What if he's a Thri-Keen using two greatswords? What if he went full armor, with an enchanted tower shield? The problem with the original comparison is that it compares a power-gaming druid in favorable conditions against a standard human fighter in unfavorable conditions. If you look at all the fighter builds there are out there, and assume that anything published in a licenced D&D book is allowed, surely you can find plenty of scenarios where the fighter comes out on top easily. Also, you can pay to have a wizard cast enlarge person on you, then pay to have him cast permanency on the enlarge person.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 03:14 PM
Are you're saying, Woot Spitum, that the only sort of fighter that can match a severely nerfed, core-only druid is a non-core, souped up fighter, possibly having to be a monstrous race or undead, with the assistance of a wizard, potions and pre-combat buffs?

If so, then you've proven my point so eloquently. I should kiss you.

Yakk
2007-01-19, 03:25 PM
The fighter is L 7. By standard WBL rules, he's lucky to have a +2 greatsword and +1 plate armor.

My claim is that my heavily nerfed SRD core druid can still stand up to an equal-level PHBI core fighter in a knock-down brawl and win. In addition, the druid has more support abilities, skills, and generally useful out-of-combat stuff.

As noted, I'm not all that interested in cheese imported from constant expansion books. I'm talking about balancing the druid class (in PHBI) vs the fighter class (in PHBI).

And while the fighter class starts getting serious cheese outside of core, stacking on cheese almost always ends up making spellcasters win.

With the modification (that the druid only takes half the damage that his pet does), attacking the pet becomes a useful move, but not anywhere close to an automatic win.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 03:54 PM
Wildshape in 4.0 needs to be totally redone. Instead of a general pass, it should


Give a list of monsters you can wildshape into similar to how the summon monster tables are, but bigger.
If you assume monster X you don't neccessary get all of its abilities (aka things to prevent brokeness, such as pounce or the obscure things).
Have a minimun caster level, and character HD level you must meet to assume a certain form. (Similar to binding vestiges but don't make it a check make it a minimun). If you aren't powerful enough in magic you won't be able to transform into the form for its beyond your abilities. This will prevent much of the abuses due to high stats/abilites you can get in certain forms by seperating HD, CR, and the benefits the form gives to a PC from each other.
Have the stats be an alteration of the current person abilitiy scores similar to how the shapechange variant is. Give the Druid a reason to have 18 in strength instead of a 8.
Each splat monster book will have an update list of the new forms you can take similar to how almost all splat books have new feats, items, etc. The open endness of Wildshape is the problem, for monsters were balanced against there CR, wildshape allows a Druid to pick and mix abilities/feats that a monster wouldn't typically have, or get insanely high scores allowing them to dump abilities.
Finally Kill Natural Spell or make it have serious feat pre-reqs, like silent, still, and eschew before you can get Natural Spell. Limiting the level of spells you can cast in wildshape form can also be a balancing factor. Like at level 15 you can only cast lvl 3 spells or below, yet you have lvl 8 spells at this time in your non wildshape form.

krossbow
2007-01-19, 03:58 PM
Shifter already does all that. It's what I love most about PHB II.



allows for so much versatility in what you become while keeping the stats simple.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 04:03 PM
Shifter already does all that. It's what I love most about PHB II.

allows for so much versatility in what you become while keeping the stats simple.
I wish there were more forms, and more abilities they could do with it. I know its a variant system, thus it won't get much attention, but they should just plain switch and flesh out that system.

MrNexx
2007-01-19, 04:36 PM
Wildshape in 4.0 needs to be totally redone. Instead of a general pass, it should

Give a list of monsters you can wildshape into similar to how the summon monster tables are, but bigger.
If you assume monster X you don't neccessary get all of its abilities (aka things to prevent brokeness, such as pounce or the obscure things).Actually, to expand upon this, I would say that the list should include some things that you should get that aren't broken. If you Wild Shape into a wolf, you should have a wolf's sense of smell; that's why you usually choose the form of a wolf.



Finally Kill Natural Spell or make it have serious feat pre-reqs, like silent, still, and eschew before you can get Natural Spell. Limiting the level of spells you can cast in wildshape form can also be a balancing factor. Like at level 15 you can only cast lvl 3 spells or below, yet you have lvl 8 spells at this time in your non wildshape form.


Prereqs would be wonderful. Even Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials kicks it back to 6th or 9th level, minimum, and makes the opportunity cost VERY high.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 04:59 PM
[/list]Actually, to expand upon this, I would say that the list should include some things that you should get that aren't broken. If you Wild Shape into a wolf, you should have a wolf's sense of smell; that's why you usually choose the form of a wolf.
Some abilities yes, scent isn't that bad of an ability, pounce or the Shambler's immunity to electricity that actually grant it temporary con for 1 hour is. Pounce won't be so bad if it was limited to higher levels and the player has to make a trade off, a form with better stats, or a form with lesser stats but it gains pounce or some other ability.


Prereqs would be wonderful. Even Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials kicks it back to 6th or 9th level, minimum, and makes the opportunity cost VERY high.
There are several ways they can modify natural spell in 4.0, but it won't be modified in 3.5


Sadly I doubt WOTC will do this, or if they do they will allow something else that is obscene to become the new CoDzilla, that they should have realized from the start.

Druid
2007-01-19, 05:12 PM
Wow, I leave for a day and this happens? I don't really have time to address everything, but I just wanted to say a few things.

In regards to Yakk's waste of bandwidth druid fix, who cares if he can beat a fighter? When limited to core material the fighter is one of, if not the, worst classes. All that aside, PC versus PC is a horrible way to compare power. What should be measured is how the fighter and druid stack up against average encounters for their levels. I agree with Gamebird that monsters and PCs aren't necessarily supposed to be balanced but running two PCs against the same encounter is a much better comparison of power than an initiative rolling contest (pretty much what PC vs. PC battles turn out to be).

Lastly, if you don't like druid being the strongest class in the game then switch to the shifter variant. Add on ranger's animal companion if you feel like it. The druid will still be much better than non casters but it's no longer the biggest, badest kid on the playground.

Truffles
2007-01-19, 05:17 PM
alright, I personnally like druids. Who doesnt?

However as bear said in the first page.... druids spells arent as good as wizards.... HA HA HA HA HA

have you heard of the spells reincarnate? Langour? Last breath? Sand blast? MIASMA? disjunction sucks compared to miasma, and miasmas a 4th level spell.

Druids have an amazing spell list, you just have to look.

Druid
2007-01-19, 05:21 PM
I am not familiar with Miasma but I'm sure it has nothing on Disjunction. Or time stop. Or Gate. Or energy Drain, wail of the banshee, wish, planer binding, forcecage, and probably a whole host of others if I bothered to look through my books.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 05:29 PM
In regards to Yakk's waste of bandwidth druid fix, who cares if he can beat a fighter? When limited to core material the fighter is one of, if not the, worst classes. All that aside, PC versus PC is a horrible way to compare power. What should be measured is how the fighter and druid stack up against average encounters for their levels. I agree with Gamebird that monsters and PCs aren't necessarily supposed to be balanced but running two PCs against the same encounter is a much better comparison of power than an initiative rolling contest (pretty much what PC vs. PC battles turn out to be).
And a Druid is more effective in that Scenario than a Fighter and pretty much every class sans cleric and a few of the new ToB classes and a Wizard. This is because Druids can be both a generalist filling in the gaps of the party due to how Wildshape and Spellcasting combine, or they can be a specialist due to how Wildshape and Spellcasting combine. It is very hard not to build an effective druid, that can't help the party someway in an encounter.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 05:30 PM
Druid just look at your OotS quotes in your signature as proof of the previous point I made.

Druid
2007-01-19, 05:31 PM
Druids as written can. I'm suggesting that the use this to compare Yakk's druid to a fighter.

Druid
2007-01-19, 05:36 PM
Druid just look at your OotS quotes in your signature as proof of the previous point I made.

I'm well aware that Druids are overpowered as all hell (I'd also like to note that I love the druid class for the flavor, not the power). My problem is that people are just complaining about the druid's game breaking power when clerics and, eventually, wizards are just as bad. Even sorcerers and psions leave most noncasters in the dust. If you’re going to double handed leap attack the druid with a nerf bat you'd better do the same to clerics and wizards or you've accomplished nothing. I don't think that the druid is even stronger than those two. If he is it's not in a greatly appreciable manner.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 05:43 PM
I'm well aware that Druids are overpowered as all hell (I'd also like to note that I love the druid class for the flavor, not the power). My problem is that people are just complaining about the druid's game breaking power when clerics and, eventually, wizards are just as bad. Even sorcerers and psions leave most noncasters in the dust. If you’re going to double handed leap attack the druid with a nerf bat you'd better do the same to clerics and wizards or you've accomplished nothing. I don't think that the druid is even stronger than those two. If he is it's not in a greatly appreciable manner.
I agree, even though Druids are the strongest in a pure core enviroment, wizards, clerics, and to some extent sorcerers (need a talented hand at creating a good spell list, but if done correctly damn) need just as much "love"/hate to bring them closer in line to the other classes.

But I think you are missing one point in this discussion. Sure Wizards and Clerics are very powerful, but there power increases tremendously by choosing there spellcasting list wisely, Druids are overpowered to other classes right out of the box, no assembly required. Batteries already included and preinstalled.

Druids get alot of press for its so easy to be powerful with them.

Truffles
2007-01-19, 05:46 PM
Druid your point is horrible. you stated your not familiar at all with miasma but ASSUME it has nothing on those spells.

Keep assuming.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 05:52 PM
Druid your point is horrible. you stated your not familiar at all with miasma but ASSUME it has nothing on those spells.

Keep assuming.
Then please give us the stats for Miasma. Oh btw Raise Dead/Resurrection > reincarnate

Druid
2007-01-19, 05:56 PM
Okay, then help me out. What does miasma do that is so powerful it overshadows gate (summons creatures with CRs in the 30s pre epic), disjunction (autodispells everything it touches while destroying the enemies items, even artifacts) of planer binding (unlimited wishes)?

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 06:05 PM
If you’re going to double handed leap attack the druid with a nerf bat you'd better do the same to clerics and wizards or you've accomplished nothing. I don't think that the druid is even stronger than those two.

Dude. Note the topic of the thread if you're confused as to why people are talking about altering the druid, instead of discussing the alterations of other classes.

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:10 PM
I'm not confused, it just annoys me when I see people with this sort of an attitude. The druid isn't the problem, full casters are the problem.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 06:11 PM
Full casters are a problem at higher levels. However, a druid is a problem even among full casters.

Anyway, I'm out of here. See you later.

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:14 PM
Druid is no worse than cleric throughout the entire 20 levels.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 06:17 PM
Okay, then help me out. What does miasma do that is so powerful it overshadows gate (summons creatures with CRs in the 30s pre epic), disjunction (autodispells everything it touches while destroying the enemies items, even artifacts) of planer binding (unlimited wishes)?
It fills a target who breathes lungs full of poisionous gas,

The subject cannot speak. Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, bardic music cannot be performed, and no noise other than coughing and spitting is possible.. (Note this text is added to the spell in the Complete Divine Errata)

This happens if the target fails its fort save.

After those disastrous effects kick in they must make a Constitution check until the duration ends. If it fails this consitution check its instantly unconcsious and at 0 hps, next round dieing, 2nd round dead after the original failed check. They have to make this consitution check for a very long time, 3rnds*caster level. (My words, I can't tell what it says exactly due to it being in CDiv)

This is a 6th level spell, in some previous supplements it was a 4th level spell. The Complete Divine is the most recent version, PGTF second most recent.

Miasma Spell Complete Divine (3.5), p. 168
Miasma Spell Masters of the Wild (3.0), p. 91

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 06:21 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=328208
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=326564
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=325807

It still is a great spell, even after the changes.

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:22 PM
What happens on a successful save and is it a druid exclusive? In any case, a one target save or don't quite die doesn't come close to the spells I mentioned.

edit: yeah, as a fourth level spell with no save that would be broken beyond belief. However, one overpowered spell does not make the entire list overpowered. I still maintain that most of the spells I mentioned are more powerful, just at a more reasonable level.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 06:31 PM
On a successful save they are not affected by that spell at all. Its a major save or lose, its a save or lose that targets spellcasters specifically and can still be very bad for any non monster class.

Wizard and Clerics may have better spell lists (In core its Wiz>Druid>Cleric, in non core its Wiz>Cleric>Druid) but wildshape is still very powerful and together Druid is easily as equal to Cleric.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 06:32 PM
Oh it was in complete divine errrata that it listed exactly what you could or couldn't do, in all other versions even the original complete divine it was left to the DM what actions you could do while you "drown."

Its pure Druid in Complete Divine and Master of the Wild. I removed the other two for after looking at the books I discovered they are different spells with the word Misama in them.

Note the constitution check is scaling, each time you save and surpass the dc, the dc becomes harder. Eventually you are going to fall over and become unconscious (it ends caster level*3 rounds later), though the battle may already be over, thus you are going to need full healing. And how useful is the the caster going to be during battle if he can't use verbal components (how many wizards have a good amount of silent spells prepared, a smart wizard should have a silent rod but not all wizards are smart)

If you don't make the inital save its not save or lose, its save or your ******

The original MotW version also didn't require a fortitude initial saving throw, just the con checks.

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:33 PM
Wizard and Clerics may have better spell lists (In core its Wiz>Druid>Cleric, in non core its Wiz>Cleric>Druid) but wildshape is still very powerful and together Druid is easily as equal to Cleric.

Agreed. I'm in full favor of weakening wild shape and have done so in my own games. However, I feel that anything more is pointless unless the wizard and cleric are getting a similar treatment.

tarbrush
2007-01-19, 06:40 PM
I'm not confused, it just annoys me when I see people with this sort of an attitude. The druid isn't the problem, full casters are the problem.

I think most of the people here agree. But the difference between druid and all other full casters is how easy it is with druids.

Wizards etc require careful planning, good feats, attention to spell choice and well meshed PrCs to be fully teh ubar.

Whereas even with all the splatbooks in the wold, you're not going to improve that much over a Druid 20 with natural spell, SF conjuration and augment summoning.

Played badly, or even averagely, wizards aren't that hot (witness everyone's love affair with direct damage). Played averagely, druids are hard.

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 06:44 PM
Whoa, this is all really confusing! Guess it's sort of the nature of forums. But anyway back on topic. I think we should get back to modifying the Druid's abilities so we can keep the original rules mostly intact ( also without removing any of them outright) but making sure that the Druid has a more or less equality in power level with the other classes.

As for PC vs PC, D&D is much more balanced toward PC vs monster. A druid going solo has, in my opinion, a snowball's chance in hell vs a Balor unless he has help. Now I know some of you may disagree but let's drop the issue get back to the meat of the matter.

Now what about randomizing the result of a wild shape. Say Jim the druid wants to wild shape and instead of being able to just pick what he wants, the DM rolls secretly on a hidden table and tells Jim what he becomes. The table could contain such animals as a cheetah, a wolverine, a bear, and even a chicken.

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:48 PM
Not only does that not make sense, it would just be annoying. Go with the shifter variant, problem solved.

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 06:56 PM
The shifter variant is the entire reason I made this thread. I read it and studied and found it extremely repugnant to me.

The DMG (pg. 28 in the side bar for the instant kill) states that anything that randomizes combat helps the underdog which in this case is anything that opposes the druid. Besides, its funny when people accidentally turn into chickens.:smallbiggrin:

Druid
2007-01-19, 06:57 PM
I doubt it would be very funny to the guy playing the druid.

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 07:01 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way. But anyway, bygones being bygones, perhaps you're right. How would you change the current rules for wild shape without resorting to that horrible shifter variant (its not really horrible, I just don't like it)?

krossbow
2007-01-19, 07:07 PM
Well, let me ask you this: what is it that you want to retain from teh current build that the shifter build doesn't do?


The shifter build gives a bonus to strength, and thats it: This is a problem, as you should also gain some con and dex. However, it would mean toning down the stats a little.

In addition, one problem I might see is that the animal companion is lost; if you want to go full shifter without losing much power, it would have to be sacrificed, and if you want to keep the full companion, the shifting has to be nerfed.
________
FORD HSC ENGINE PICTURE (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_HSC_engine)

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 07:07 PM
A better question is what don't you like about the Shifter variant?

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 07:13 PM
You could also introduce some more alignment-based restrictions, like those for the paladin. Paladins get more abilities than most classes, but they have to be a lot more careful about what they do. You could, as a DM, rule that druids have to have good reason before sending an animal companion into harm's way, or that they lose their companion and have to atone before gaining another one if they consistently put them into more danger than the rest of the party faces. It's certainly more interesting than asking whether or not his potential actions risk losing his strict neutrality.

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 07:38 PM
Not actually having the ability to turn into a lot of different kinds of animals and instead becoming some weird freak of nature animal like thing. Also, you cant upgrade any of the early forms, just use the new one. Also no animal companion. Finally, its annoying to use yet another book and complicates matters endlessly.

But can we stop talking about the shifter already?

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 07:41 PM
Well you settle for a hybrid between shifter and wildshape :smallwink:

I already listed how I would redo wildshape if I were to start over. Since I can't restart 3.5 I just wish they expand on the idea of the shifter.

Jack Mann
2007-01-19, 07:44 PM
Miasma's pretty bad, agreed. But Ramza, Wizards and Clerics get Shivering Touch, which is even worse. 3d6 dex damage a round from a third level spell, with no save. Maximise it, and it's enough to paralyze almost anyone in a round. Any character is down in two rounds.

Now, you want a broken druid spell? Look at Enveloping Cacoon. that's a broken druid spell.

Fizban
2007-01-19, 07:45 PM
Screw reading the thread, here's what I'd do anyway:

First, drop Natural Spell, then;
A) PHBII shifter variant.
B) Pick two abilities. Spellcasting, Wildshaping, Animal Companion, you only get two. If you want a version of all three, you get one of them full, and the other two at 1/2 strength.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 07:45 PM
Here is my ideas for Druid balance I started in another thread


My first idea is not have Druids know their entire spell list instead function more like Wizard’s spell book. A druid wouldn’t have spell book but at every level a druid would pick two spells from Druid spell list. To obtain more spells a druid would seek out other druids in their circle or convince a druid from a different circle and perhaps some sort of woodland creature (like Nymph). If a druid wishes to learn spell some other way she would have to research the spell using normal rules in the dmg. After making contact with another druid and if they wish to pass on the knowledge of the spell both druids would perform a ritual costing the same as writing down and last for one day. However Druids were never about money so instead it could be payment through some sort service any one have a suggestion for this service?

My second Idea is to focus on the definition on familiarity. The PHB, DMG or any book for that matter doesn’t define familiarity. Most DMs seem to handle it by knowledge nature check which practically any druids could make so it’s still hand me the MM. The PHB also gives an example of a druid who has never left a temperate forest can’t wildshape into a polar bear, meaning a knowledge nature checks shouldn’t circumvent it. Seeing as a Druid could just use Summon Nature’s Ally 5 to encounter a polar bear so simply having an encounter with said animal shouldn’t qualify as familiarity. This leaves the druid should go out into the wilderness and look for these animals and study them in the wild. But how should this function when a druid starts the game 5th level or above a druid could argue that he’s been to various continents exploring different habitats could anyone recommend some sort of mechanic?

Another issue would be stat dumping Str and Dex because Wildshape changes physical attributes to match those animals. Perhaps the Str and Dex of the regular form would also effect the Str and Dex of the wildshape. For example lets say a Druid with 8 Str and 9 Dex and wildshape into a Lion. Instead of having a Str 21 and Dex 17 the Druid would have Str 19 and Dex 16. If this happens Druid should also get a bonus for having Str and Dex above 10 but treat this bonus as an enchantment bonus. This would make Str and Dex not be a dump stat and suddenly Druid is no longer a SAD class instead it’s a MAD class, forcing the class to balance Str, Dex Con and Wis as their primary stat.

jjpickar
2007-01-19, 07:52 PM
That makes perfect sense Suzaku. As for a mechanic for familiarity, maybe try having the player roll a knowledge nature check with a DC based on how powerful or difficult to study the creature is (i.e. how rare it is) a number of times equal to his level.

Also here's how to save natural spell, make it a meta-magic feat prepared two levels (or more) higher than the spell cast. Make wild shape last rounds per level and halve the amount of uses per day. Also have any spell active on the druid before he wild shapes automatically dismissed when he wild shapes.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 08:56 PM
Miasma's pretty bad, agreed. But Ramza, Wizards and Clerics get Shivering Touch, which is even worse. 3d6 dex damage a round from a third level spell, with no save. Maximise it, and it's enough to paralyze almost anyone in a round. Any character is down in two rounds.

Now, you want a broken druid spell? Look at Enveloping Cacoon. that's a broken druid spell.
I never said Miasma is one of the most broken spells, nor did I compare it to Gate or anything (Othes did). I didn't even call it broken. I called it a

"It still is a great spell, even after the changes."
"Its a major save or lose, its a save or lose that targets spellcasters specifically and can still be very bad for any non monster class."
and I finally revised my wording directed to Druid to show how good the spell is in my opinion
"its not save or lose, its save or your ******"

------------------------------------

Before the talking about the specific spell Miasma (which somebody else brought up) I said Druids have a good spellcasting list, and in core there spellcasting is better than clerics but slightly worse than wizards. Shivering Touch is a non-core spell, which is also in a book that is not part of the completes and is semi-common in gaming groups. Thus my point stills stands that Druids are slightly better spellcasters than Clerics in core (not by much, but slightly, in non core its Wizard>Cleric>Druid)

I aint trying to argue which is stronger Clerics, Druids, or Wizard. All three are strong, and there are leagues ahead of the other base classes. I did say its far easier to make a good druid than it is to make a good wizard. If you are new to the game you can't really screw up a Druid, you can easily screw up a Wizard.


Now back to the original poster's request/reason for the post

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 08:58 PM
Suzaku are you familiar with the Spirit Shaman and how it gets "spells retrieved" but not "spells known?"

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 09:06 PM
If you are new to the game you can't really screw up a Druid, you can easily screw up a Wizard.[/U]

I remember the first D&D session I played in, one of my friends played as a druid and put his best ability rolls into Charisma and Intelligence.:smallconfused:

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 09:09 PM
I remember the first D&D session I played in, one of my friends played as a druid and put his best ability rolls into Charisma and Intelligence.:smallconfused:
Okay perhaps I should rephrase that, if you are new to the game and have actually read the phb 1 (though not studied) and had someone spend 10 mins explaining D&D its hard to screw up a druid.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-19, 09:16 PM
True. None us had ever played before, including the DM. As I said, first ever session.:smallbiggrin: Good times really, it's hard to believe how weird that campaign got.

Suzaku
2007-01-19, 09:31 PM
Suzaku are you familiar with the Spirit Shaman and how it gets "spells retrieved" but not "spells known?"
Nope never bothered reading spirit shaman up until now. I don't see difference between it is there anything I'm missing?

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 09:59 PM
Nope never bothered reading spirit shaman up until now. I don't see difference between it is there anything I'm missing?
A sorcerer can change his arcane spells once every even level and only one at a time.

A spirit shaman can change his divine "druid" spell list "known" once every day. Because its once a day its called spell list "retrieved"

Yakk
2007-01-20, 01:26 AM
I agree -- it isn't just druids who need this treatment, it is all casters.

First, nix the sorcerer. Make the Cleric spontaneous like the gimped druid above is (spells known of a sorc 1 level higher). Make the Wizard pseudo-spontaneous -- spells memorized of a sorc 1 level greater, spells/day of a Wizard.

Second, remove metamagic rods.

Third, boost casting time of spells to a min of 1 round per spell level. You can reduce this (to the book casting time) by casting the spell at +1 level per round removed. Once the spell has been reduced to a 1 round spell, it can be Quickened as the feat. (so you can cast a L 5 spell in 1 round if you use a L 9 spell slot)

Wands and Scrolls have a similar casting time unless boosted in level (and hence required casting level). This boosting does not increase spell resist rolls.

When Wizards gain a level, they get free 1 spell of their top two spell levels, picked randomly from the DM's standard scroll spell chart. If they are a specialist, they can ask for either or both of their gained spells to come from their school.

Wizards cannot copy spells from each other's spellbooks. They can scribe a spell from a scroll, and they can use read magic to scribe a scroll from another wizard's spellbook. However, using read magic to scribe a scroll from another wizard's spellbook erases the orginal spell.

Spontaneous metamagic does not require any extra preparation. Just pick the metamagic, and use the higher spell slot.

Bonus spells/day for a Wizard is wisdom based.
Bonus spells memorized for a Wizard is int based.
Spell resistance for a Wizard is cha based.

Bonus spells/day for a Cleric is cha based.
Bonus spells known for a Cleric is int based.
Spell resistance is Wis based.

There is no stat that determined what level spells a Cleric/Wizard can cast. It was always pretty cheesy, usually easy to get around, and the above MAD is bad enough.

Damage dice of spells are boosted by the level of the spell. (ie, a L 5 spell that does d6 damage per level now does d6+5 damage per level). This helps make up somewhat for the slowness of casting spells.

Spells that summon a creature have multiple versions. Each version summons a specific type of creature, and the GM gets final call what version the player gets in all situations. Spells that summon nearly arbitrary high-end allies from other planes (ie, Gate) summon a specific creature. If that creature is killed, your spell doesn't work anymore. Sharing of Gate spells with a valid creature attached is not popular, because nobody wants to risk their minion. In effect, buying a Gate that has the true name (ie, can summon) of a non-destroyed outer planar being isn't possible. They are priceless and jealously guarded.

Summon spells that summon elementals have the same restrictions as druids do, but are not specific creatures (unlike other extra planar summons). The creature must remain within it's element. Fire elementals can effect anyone within "standard light radius" of their fire. Earth elementals cannot attack someone under the open sky (but a building or a tent is enough to make someone vunerable). Water elementals cannot leave their body of water. Air elementals cannot effect anyone walking on or touching the ground.

(Wild elementals do not have these restrictions)

Cleric BaB drops to +1/2. Spells that would take them to +1 BaB directly instead take them to +3/4 BaB. Clerics lose their good Fort save. Clerics use the Wizard spell progression. Clerics suffer spell failure, but ignore the first 20%.

Feats that change the use of turn attempts to something else are removed as nearly universal cheese. Clerical metamagic works like Wizard metamagic.

Twilight armor is removed. Making armor "mithril" is now a +4/5/6 light/medium/heavy (original armor type) enchantment in cost (A mithril chain shirt is worth a king's ransom), but grants adamantium DR (1/- light, 2/- medium, 3/- heavy). (you can choose to forgo the "one armor category lighter" to make heavy mithril armor).

Bracers of armor of +1 to +4 exist. They cost as much as bracers of armor +2 to +8 respectively.

Casters now require serious protection to get their spells off, and casting spells quickly is extremely expensive. You can still cast a "save or lose" spell, it just takes time.

Summon spells (that aren't elementals and/or gate-ish) work much like the above Gimped druid. The summoned creatures appear 1 minute after you cast the spell. They follow the summoner around passively for 1 hour/caster level. When they are activated, their duration drops to the same as the standard spell description. Summoned creatures are activated if they are damaged, if they are attacked, if they attack something (accidentally), if they are given an order, or if the summoner casts any other summoning spell. Giving the first order and activating these presummoned creatures takes the RAW casting time of the spell (usually 1 standard action).

If the creatures find they cannot follow the caster, they will wait. If they fall outside of the caster's range for more than 1 round, they return.

How is that for a start? I suspect with all of the above might bring casters into the same realm as the PHBI fighter -- the caster will still be useful, but will require protection. Casters probably need some boost at low levels after the above reaming.

Mr Horse
2007-01-20, 12:34 PM
Spells that summon a creature have multiple versions. Each version summons a specific type of creature, and the GM gets final call what version the player gets in all situations. Spells that summon nearly arbitrary high-end allies from other planes (ie, Gate) summon a specific creature. If that creature is killed, your spell doesn't work anymore. Sharing of Gate spells with a valid creature attached is not popular, because nobody wants to risk their minion. In effect, buying a Gate that has the true name (ie, can summon) of a non-destroyed outer planar being isn't possible. They are priceless and jealously guarded.


Brilliant idea!! This is exactly what a spell as non-generic and incredibly powerful as Gate SHOULD be like. it's not like you're summoning a nearly mindless carrion crawler, you're summoning a specific FIEND that has a name and consciousness of its own. It makes the whole process of getting those spell so much more interesting, and reearching the spell could be a quest or even possibly a mini campaign on its own.

Yakk
2007-01-20, 02:57 PM
The goal is to make magic epic. D&D magic is already increadilbly powerful -- what it lacks is significant weaknesses.

A high level wizard can cast mid-level spells fast, or high-level spells slow. Casting the really powerful spells requires someone guarding the wizard. But, when your spells go off, spells are quite offen "I win, you lose", just like standard D&D.

Damage spells are boosted (possibly not enough) to make them a viable alternative to control spells. Per spell, damage spells are about twice as good as they used to be when they go off, but take much longer.

Fireball: 6.5 damage per caster level, max 65. Save for half. 3 rounds to cast, 1 round if cast as a L 5 spell.

Disintegrate: 5d6+30 damage on a save (avg 47.5), 19 avg damage per casting level on fort failure (380 avg(!)@L 20). 6 rounds to cast, 3 rounds if cast as a L 9 spell.

jjpickar
2007-01-20, 05:12 PM
One has to realize that you are talking about level 10+ characters. Before that, one good hit and they're done for. A hidden rogue gets them every time. Oh and Power word kill usually works on even 20th level wizards. They die, no save. Of course that would be at the hands of another wizard. Then there are barbarians I've had a 7th level barbarian do more damage then disintegrate.