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Johanz
2013-12-24, 07:17 AM
Hello!

I'm about to host my first campaign as a proper DM, and I have 6 players joining the game. I understand that the EL:s in the Dungeon Master's Guide have been designed for parties of 4 members. Therefore I want to ask what is an acceptable encounter level to (really) challenge the players, without becoming impossible to defeat?

So far, the party consists of a level 5 bard, a factotum, a shapeshifter druid, a monk (Jiriku's monk fix specifically: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) and the other two players haven't created their characters yet. Furthermore, it turns out that one of these two players is going to miss the first session.

This is my first actual post on these forums after long-time lurking, so please excuse any mistakes in this post! Thanks in advance for any sort of insight!

Yours,

~Johazar

P.S: I really, really want to throw a black dragon at these people as a boss fight. Any suggestions for the age category or should I abandon that route comlpetely?

SingularByte
2013-12-24, 08:04 AM
The average party at level 5 should be able to handle a CR 5 encounter and use up about 1/4 of their resources in a fight.

Since you have 6 people, I'd maybe boost it up to CR 6 for an average fight. If you're looking at a difficult boss fight, about CR 7 should be appropriate, but I'd be cautious about making it any more difficult than that.

A juvenile black dragon is a CR 7 creature or you could use a young black dragon (CR 5) and give it some minions to back it up, maybe a pair of CR 3 creatures to bring it up to CR 7.

In general you want to give them more than one creature to fight at a time, otherwise they'll just gang up on it and potentially end the fight before it can react.

RochtheCrusher
2013-12-24, 08:19 AM
Welcome!

As this is a 3.5-specific balance question (I think?), I think you would do better with it over in the 3.5 subforum. However, let me take a crack at it as a 4E DM.

Obviously, the more players you have, and the more magical loot you allow them to have over their Wealth by Level, the more inadequate a "level appropriate" encounter is going to be. I often have to use threats several levels higher than my party to keep things interesting (and not even "someone loses consciousness" interesting).

That said, often either side will have a pretty hard counter to the other, which may make the challenge rating irrelevant, and you have to watch out for that. For example, a dragon will easily fly above and flame to death any party lacking ranged capability or the ability to stop it from doing that, and it's as unlikely to lair in a place where it cannot use that capability as you are to shack up somewhere your opposable thumbs don't work. A dragon is, therefore, a hard counter to a group of sword-wielding fighters.

Good luck, and I hope your next reply has more useful numbers in it. :-P

hymer
2013-12-24, 09:18 AM
I'm assuming 3.5 here. It's worth noting quite a few things about CR:

It's often imprecise. You can use it for rough measuring (like looking for ideas for encounters), but to be sure, you need either sufficient experience or a test fight or two. It also doesn't take the players' skill, their character types or their optimization into account.

+2 CR should theoretically mean twice as hard as what you had before. This is why you want to be careful about going too high. Though six players warrant using a slightly higher CR, you run a certain risk of getting a monster with such offensive or defensive power as to be deadly to the party.

Action economy. Four players vs. one monster will often have that monster down and out fast, especially if it loses initiative. Six players vs. one monster can be even swingier, especially if you up the CR to compensate, and then get a monster capable of one-shotting PCs. It'll still probably lose, but it might take someone with it, especially if it wins initiative.
Using multiple lesser monsters is often a good idea as a consequence (every time you double the number of monsters, the EL of the encounter goes up by 2 - 1 wolf (CR 1) is EL 1, 2 is EL 3, 4 is EL 5, 8 is EL 7, etc. - although it breaks down eventually, as no amount of normal wolves will be any real threat against characters of, say, level 9, who can waste wolves by the handful with greater cleaves or AoE damage spells, expending almost none of their resources in the process).
Multiple lesser foes reduces the extremes a bit - a single roll from the monsters is less likely to KO a PC, and a similarly lucky roll from a player is less likely to end the combat before it gets started.

Good luck!

Johanz
2013-12-24, 10:53 AM
Alrighty, thanks for the replies guys! Sorry about not mentioning the edition, I forgot to post in the 3.5 subforum. Anyway, we're indeed playing 3.5e. I'll probably try to include more lower leveled enemies to make the enounters more interesting. I do have one more question, why is Ogre Mage dangerous enough to warrant a CR 8? I'm sure once I get used to my group's playstyle I'll be more able to make appropriate encounters without resorting to EL so much. :P I'll be especially careful not to force too difficult encounters.

This first timer DM really appreciates all of you guys' input! :)

~Johazar

hymer
2013-12-24, 11:10 AM
The Ogre Mage is very good at getting away (flight, invisibility, gaseous form), and it recovers hit points pretty fast (regeneration, only taking lethal damage from fire and acid). It is also decent at sneaking up on people (for the same reasons it's good at getting away). Those who can't take it out really fast or somehow prevent it from escaping are going to have a really tough time defeating it. It is clever enough to fight in hit-and-run attacks, wearing the party down while recovering itself through its regeneration. A 9th level cone of cold to the face is also pretty deadly to a surprised party much below 8th level, even though it can't be done more than once per day. The first ones to go down are the wizards and sorcerers, among the more likely to be able to detect, trap or deal lethal damage to the OM. A sixth level sorcerer or wizard is likely to have no more than 30 hp, and the CoC deals about that much on average with a failed save.

Subaru Kujo
2013-12-24, 11:25 AM
Alrighty, thanks for the replies guys! Sorry about not mentioning the edition, I forgot to post in the 3.5 subforum. Anyway, we're indeed playing 3.5e. I'll probably try to include more lower leveled enemies to make the enounters more interesting. I do have one more question, why is Ogre Mage dangerous enough to warrant a CR 8? I'm sure once I get used to my group's playstyle I'll be more able to make appropriate encounters without resorting to EL so much. :P I'll be especially careful not to force too difficult encounters.

This first timer DM really appreciates all of you guys' input! :)

~Johazar

It's an ogre that's smarter than most men, and therefore is smart enough to lay traps, have minions (that will obey it out of fear more than anything else), and so on. Add in regeneration and the spell like abilities and you have a hell of a fighting force.

hymer
2013-12-24, 11:38 AM
@ Subaru Kujo: Any traps and minions wouldn't factor into the ogre mage's CR, though. They would have their own, and add to EL of the encounter.

Subaru Kujo
2013-12-24, 11:41 AM
@ Subaru Kujo: Any traps and minions wouldn't factor into the ogre mage's CR, though. They would have their own, and add to EL of the encounter.

Ah, yes. That is true I suppose (usually play in groups where trap CR isn't really factored in, as it's a question of what creature to tack it to usually, since they are usually placed in areas that aren't really linked to a creature, if that makes sense (hallway a few rooms away from the creature (and of course the creature in question is an ooze) smashes inward when stepping on a pressure plate, for instance)).

Johanz
2013-12-24, 01:32 PM
Okay, this should be enough info to help me out. Thanks again guys and hope to hear from you at these forums in the future as well! ;D

Another_Poet
2013-12-25, 12:52 AM
Johanz, you may also find useful my rules for solo monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109995) for large parties.

Large parties can usually make mincemeat out of a solo monster, even if it's supposed to be really challenging. The rules above help fix that and rebalance it for large parties, without a lot of extra work.

Zombimode
2013-12-25, 03:26 AM
Take a look at the encounter calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/). Never worry about the math ever again.


In generall, take the EL values as guidelines. Try things out. Develop a feeling for how the abilities of any give enemies will actually play out.