Which is better: a T1 or a gestalt of all T4 and below classes?

[aleucard]

I think we've all heard about this sort of thing before. I want to see if it can pass a stress test, myself.

Exactly what it says in the title. The original version was all T3, but there's several classes that have roughly T1 ability split between them already in that tier which makes the exercise kinda obvious. This should be more interesting, anyway.

EDIT: So that it is less of a cluster@#$%, there are 4 points in consideration here; those being levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. 5 is lowbie territory, 10 is mid-levels, 15 is high, and 20 is generally as far as the vast majority of people are willing to go in a campaign apparently. We should get a solid distribution there.

Also, assume that the players building the characters in question are competent in all components of their characters, and not going to employ the broken (example: PunPun) things that are found in their sheets by nature of what they have. Assume these are characters for an actual campaign, albeit a strong and very diverse one (assume divergent enough encounters to be a viable test of a character's Tier ranking, thus EVERYTHING that a DM might throw is on the table).

[eggynack]

Tier one, definitely. It's generally agreed that the tier three uber-gestalt is also inferior to a tier one, though I've seen some decent arguments for equality. Tier four and below just has no way to compete.

[Somensjev]

well, the tier 1 would most likely be SAD
where as the gestalt would depend on every stat

i can definitely see the gestalt being better at lower levels, but at higher levels i think the tier one would come off on top

[limejuicepowder]

I'm voting t1. The t4 would get...warmage and healer casting, which isn't very good at all - though I'm not super familiar with the healer's list. If they have some good defensive spells the character might stand a chance, but 'sides that I don't think any t4 has effective defenses against a t1 offense. It'd be trivial, probably.

[eggynack]

i can definitely see the gestalt being better at lower levels, but at higher levels i think the tier one would come off on top
Maybe at really low levels, but honestly the comparison comes across a lot like the normal tier one against tier four or five comparison. At around five or below, the gestalt is comparable to a wizard, and above that the wizard comes out ahead. Druids likely continue to dominate from level one to twenty, and clerics have a decent chance of doing the same. There's not that much that you get from the fighting class end of the gestalt. Like, is a fighter 1//monk 1//ranger 1// barbarian 1... so much better than a barbarian 1? Better, obviously, but not on any truly meaningful scale.

[Talya]

It's generally agreed that the tier three uber-gestalt is also inferior to a tier one, though I've seen some decent arguments for equality.


I'd have a hard time imagining a "tier three uber-gestalt" would not be tier 1 already. The multiple ability dependence would make it hard to get full use out of it, but let's take a look at it:

With Bard, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, you'd want your charisma as high as possible. Beguiler relies on Int, so you'd need to keep it within striking range of 19 as well. Those four classes alone will get you the vast majority of spells castable spontaneously an incredible number of times per day. Add Warlock (charisma based) and Dragonfire Adept invocations, and I highly doubt there's any magical effect you cannot acquire, essentially at will, all on a single character. Factotum would let them abuse the action economy with impunity and cover whatever spells they couldn't already acquire. They'd have the Paladin's charisma to saves, and a big bank of Turn Undead attempts with which to power dependant effects.

The chassis they'd be casting on would have all three initiators - with a d12 hit die, full BAB, and all high saves, with nearly every maneuver in the Book of Nine Swords...


I'm sorry, while I'm sure at uber-high-op shenanigans, a wizard might still come out marginally on top, that tier-3-and-lower uber-gestalt wins easily the vast majority of the time.


Even the Tier 4 gestalt gets you warmage, warlock, and dragonfire adept. I strongly suspect the tier 4 gestalt will easily reach tier 2, but have a hard time breaking Tier 1. When you throw Tier 3's into it, you are hard pressed to find something that tier 1 can do that they can't replicate instantly.

[aleucard]

I'd have a hard time imagining a "tier three uber-gestalt" would not be tier 1 already. The multiple ability dependence would make it hard to get full use out of it, but let's take a look at it:

With Bard, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, you'd want your charisma as high as possible. Beguiler relies on Int, so you'd need to keep it within striking range of 19 as well. Those four classes alone will get you the vast majority of spells castable spontaneously an incredible number of times per day. Add Warlock (charisma based) and Dragonfire Adept invocations, and I highly doubt there's any magical effect you cannot acquire, essentially at will, all on a single character. Factotum would let them abuse the action economy with impunity and cover whatever spells they couldn't already acquire. They'd have the Paladin's charisma to saves, and a big bank of Turn Undead attempts with which to power dependant effects.

The chassis they'd be casting on would have all three initiators - with a d12 hit die, full BAB, and all high saves, with nearly every maneuver in the Book of Nine Swords...


I'm sorry, while I'm sure at uber-high-op shenanigans, a wizard might still come out marginally on top, that tier-3-and-lower uber-gestalt wins easily the vast majority of the time.


Even the Tier 4 gestalt gets you warmage, warlock, and dragonfire adept. I strongly suspect the tier 4 gestalt will easily reach tier 2, but have a hard time breaking Tier 1. When you throw Tier 3's into it, you are hard pressed to find something that tier 1 can do that they can't replicate instantly.

This is the general reason why I think that a T3 uber-gestalt would probably win also. They got several classes-worth of options, several of which have infinite-use (and in the case of the invocation users, some of which are basically perma-buffs), and you have enough casting ability to be able to out-endurance damn near everyone and everything if you have the ability to force that kind of fight. The best option the T1's would have would be to squish you as quickly as they could, which could prove difficult when you have as many defensive capabilities as that, as well as some damn-good in-combat healing from at least Crusader.

[Prime32]

I'd have a hard time imagining a "tier three uber-gestalt" would not be tier 1 already.
[...]
Even the Tier 4 gestalt gets you warmage, warlock, and dragonfire adept. I strongly suspect the tier 4 gestalt will easily reach tier 2, but have a hard time breaking Tier 1. When you throw Tier 3's into it, you are hard pressed to find something that tier 1 can do that they can't replicate instantly.When I tried (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10511) a Tier 5 gestalt (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=32) (with some minor rewriting and merging of class features together), it was generally agreed as tier 3.

[SowZ]

SowZ arbitrary rule of Tier Gestalting: It takes an equal number of Gestalted classes, on average, equal to the Tier of classes being Gestalted to go up a Tier.

So, 5 Tier 5 classes become a 4. 4 Tier 4 classes become a 3. 3 Tier 3s become a 2. 2 Tier 2s become a 1.


Note: This is not actually a rule or even true. But it sounds good on paper so I'm going with it.

The general point should stand, though. The lower tier you are, the less you get out of gestalting said classes and at low tiers, you may need to combine lots of classes to go up even 1 tier. As has been pointed out, most gestalt combos don't synergize that well.

[Drachasor]

The Tier 3 uber-gestalt only gets a bit tricky because of maybe two classes or so that are just at the cusp of being Tier 2 -- and arguably are low Tier 2 with the right choices made. Without the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer I don't think it hits Tier 2. Sure, it is very effective at a wide variety of local tasks, but it just doesn't have the RAW POWER needed. It is not world-altering. With the Beguiler and DM though, it is Tier 2, but I don't think it hits Tier 1 (still too limited in what it can do).

The Tier 4 Gestalt is just Tier 3, period. It doesn't have the right spells needed to get into Tier 2 at all, so its variety of options just bumps it up one tier.

At low levels they certainly beat a Wizard in a fight. At mid levels or higher...well, a well-played Wizard beats them without being in the area -- and he certainly wouldn't want to be close to them.

It's important to remember that Tier 5 -> Tier 4 requires a jump in raw power. So does Tier 3 -> Tier 2. Other transitions are largely jumps in versatility. Generally speaking. Uber-gestalts largely get fuzzy, imho, when you have some classes that are just barely short of power jump needed for a higher Tier.

This sort of thing is a flaw with the Tier system, as I see it. Like I said in another thread, you'd ideally want a grid rating Power and Versatility separately. Perhaps another axis for staying power (though in practical terms, this doesn't matter that much for games). Uber-Gestalts are completely OP in that the are generally uber-versatile. But raw power (in the sense that the Tier system cares about) rarely goes up save at lower tiers. Part of this is because it is pretty easy for even low tier classes to do lots of damage, so much that more damage doesn't really do much. In a sense, the power scale in D&D starts off a bit broken.

Anyhow, a Tier 1 is better. Though I think a Tier 4 mega-gestalt would be more fun to play.

That's my view on it, anyhow.

[Talya]

The Tier 3 uber-gestalt only gets a bit tricky because of maybe two classes or so that are just at the cusp of being Tier 2 -- and arguably are low Tier 2 with the right choices made. Without the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer I don't think it hits Tier 2. Sure, it is very effective at a wide variety of local tasks, but it just doesn't have the RAW POWER needed. It is not world-altering. With the Beguiler and DM though, it is Tier 2, but I don't think it hits Tier 1 (still too limited in what it can do).

Name an effect that Tier 1s can do (without stupid-ly high op-fu) between levels 6 and 15 that the tier 3 uber gestalt could not.

It's fairly hard.


First of all, they get the entire spell lists of Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage. They get advanced learning from DN and Beguiler, and can take Ecclectic Learning from Warmage to cover the lacking transmutations.

Then they get a full set of invocations from Warlock and DFA to fill things that the three classes above don't get.

Then they can cherrypick bard spells that are not covered in those three.

Lastly they'd have factoturm to cover anything they might have missed above.

I believe from that they'll have every tier 1 spell or effect that anyone could want.



The Tier 4 Gestalt is just Tier 3, period. It doesn't have the right spells needed to get into Tier 2 at all, so its variety of options just bumps it up one tier.

Like the above, I believe that even just Warmage + Warlock + DFA likely has enough variety of spells and invocations to be able to nearly equal the versatility and power of a sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it surpasses Favored Soul.

[SowZ]

The Tier 3 uber-gestalt only gets a bit tricky because of maybe two classes or so that are just at the cusp of being Tier 2 -- and arguably are low Tier 2 with the right choices made. Without the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer I don't think it hits Tier 2. Sure, it is very effective at a wide variety of local tasks, but it just doesn't have the RAW POWER needed. It is not world-altering. With the Beguiler and DM though, it is Tier 2, but I don't think it hits Tier 1 (still too limited in what it can do).

The Tier 4 Gestalt is just Tier 3, period. It doesn't have the right spells needed to get into Tier 2 at all, so its variety of options just bumps it up one tier.

At low levels they certainly beat a Wizard in a fight. At mid levels or higher...well, a well-played Wizard beats them without being in the area -- and he certainly wouldn't want to be close to them.

It's important to remember that Tier 5 -> Tier 4 requires a jump in raw power. So does Tier 3 -> Tier 2. Other transitions are largely jumps in versatility. Generally speaking. Uber-gestalts largely get fuzzy, imho, when you have some classes that are just barely short of power jump needed for a higher Tier.

This sort of thing is a flaw with the Tier system, as I see it. Like I said in another thread, you'd ideally want a grid rating Power and Versatility separately. Perhaps another axis for staying power (though in practical terms, this doesn't matter that much for games). Uber-Gestalts are completely OP in that the are generally uber-versatile. But raw power (in the sense that the Tier system cares about) rarely goes up save at lower tiers. Part of this is because it is pretty easy for even low tier classes to do lots of damage, so much that more damage doesn't really do much. In a sense, the power scale in D&D starts off a bit broken.

Anyhow, a Tier 1 is better. Though I think a Tier 4 mega-gestalt would be more fun to play.

That's my view on it, anyhow.

But the Tier system is more about, "How can you deal with problems?" and moves a bit into, "How can you alter the setting?" at high levels then it is about just raw power or versatility. It isn't trying to measure either of those but instead overall usefulness so both are factored in.

[demigodus]

Depends on what you are comparing.

Are you comparing them in a one on one fight? The ability to contribute in a party?

Also, considering Tippy's standards for optimization (that he actually uses in his games), "Assume these are characters for an actual campaign" doesn't really say anything about the optimization level.

At very low OP, the uber-gestalt would win even at level 20. At Tippy OP, starting at level 10 at the latest (possibly level 5), the wizard would dance circles around the uber gestalt.

I would say though that in a mid-OP game, the uber gestalt could pull his weight in a T1 party. Yes, he can't teleport, but neither can the druid, who is also T1.

Depends on the game though. If there is one encounter per day, you will have trouble keeping up. Dungeon crawl without rest? Odds are you can outlast everyone.

[Drachasor]

Name an effect that Tier 1s can do (without stupid-ly high op-fu) between levels 6 and 15 that the tier 3 uber gestalt could not.

It's fairly hard.

It depends on the level. At level 10? Teleport would be one major example. Scrying, I believe, is another. There are lots of major things they miss out on.


First of all, they get the entire spell lists of Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage. They get advanced learning from DN and Beguiler, and can take Ecclectic Learning from Warmage to cover the lacking transmutations.

The Warmage is Tier 4, so they don't have those spells. Like I said, the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are kind of odd birds, since you can argue they are very low Tier 2.


Then they get a full set of invocations from Warlock and DFA to fill things that the three classes above don't get.

Yeah, but those are meaningless. Invocations are weak. There's a reason why the Warlock is Tier 4.

I'm a little confused here. Are you talking about a Tier 3 Gestalt, a Tier 4 Gestalt or a Tier 3/4 Gestalt? Because you seem to be combining abilities from Tier 3 and Tier 4 classes.


Then they can cherrypick bard spells that are not covered in those three.

If you are having the Beguiler in, then a Bard doesn't add much of anything besides a greater quantity of spells.


Lastly they'd have factoturm to cover anything they might have missed above.


Like the above, I believe that even just Warmage + Warlock + DFA likely has enough variety of spells and invocations to be able to nearly equal the versatility and power of a sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it surpasses Favored Soul.

A Sorcerer would kick their ass, to be blunt. They can blast just about as well as the Warmage, teleport around, summon minions, and do a crap-ton of other stuff.

That said, A Warmage//Warlock//DFA would probably be more fun to play because they don't run out of steam....but they really don't have all that much they are bringing to the table beyond blasting and some random lower-level spell effects.


But the Tier system is more about, "How can you deal with problems?" and moves a bit into, "How can you alter the setting?" at high levels then it is about just raw power or versatility. It isn't trying to measure either of those but instead overall usefulness so both are factored in.

"How can you deal with problems" IS versatility. It's about how many ways you can deal with problems. There's a bit of power involved in the sense that an option needs the power to be viable.

"How can you alter the setting" has power as a prime component.

[Piggy Knowles]

At level 20, the differences will more or less disappear, thanks to little things like gate at will from Truenamer. Add on perfect chassis, a pretty solid variety of spells between Healer, Warmage, Adept, Paladin, Ranger and Hexblade, invocations from Warlock&co, a variety of damage dealing options and debuffs and the like, soulmelds off of Soulborn...

Yeah, I'd say a gestalt of T4 and T5 classes would easily stand up to a wizard. The only time I'm not sure is in levels 11-16, when the wizard has some high levels spells that do interesting things that the super-gestalt couldn't, and before the super-gestalt unlocks gate to duplicate anything a T1 class could do.

EDIT: And yeah, a gestalt of T3 classes alone absolutely could, thanks to the various fixed list casters that hang out there.

[Drachasor]

The Truenamer isn't in a Tier since the class is just broken.

Tier 4 Classes:
Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

I am not seeing how this remotely gets into T2 territory.

Even if you toss in the Tier 5 classes:
Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Edit: Looks like some of the classes like DFA aren't on the list I found. We should make sure we have a solid list so that we can have a more concrete discussion.

[Piggy Knowles]

The Truenamer isn't in a Tier since the class is just broken.

Fair enough. I was going off of the post on min max, which has a comment that the truenamer is either tier 4 or tier 6. Still, you get gate off of the healer list even if it isn't functionally at will, so the point stands.

I can't think of a single thing that a T1 class can do that I couldn't duplicate with a commoner that gets a few castings of CL20 gate each day.

[SowZ]

The Truenamer isn't in a Tier since the class is just broken.

Tier 4 Classes:
Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

I am not seeing how this remotely gets into T2 territory.

Even if you toss in the Tier 5 classes:
Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

It's also strange in the Tier list because if you can get the class to function, it's capstone ability is pretty awesome.

[Talya]

I'm a little confused here. Are you talking about a Tier 3 Gestalt, a Tier 4 Gestalt or a Tier 3/4 Gestalt? Because you seem to be combining abilities from Tier 3 and Tier 4 classes.



The challenge was initially "a gestalt of all classes tier 4 and lower." When Eggynack stated that you could make it Tier 3 and lower and it still probably wouldn't be tier 1, I objected. So this is ALL classes tier 3 and lower.


If you are having the Beguiler in, then a Bard doesn't add much of anything besides a greater quantity of spells.
The bard has most (but not all) of the wiz/sorc list from 1-6. (and a fair bit that isn't on the sorcerer's list, too.) The Beguiler does NOT.

[eggynack]

I'd have a hard time imagining a "tier three uber-gestalt" would not be tier 1 already. The multiple ability dependence would make it hard to get full use out of it, but let's take a look at it:

With Bard, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, you'd want your charisma as high as possible. Beguiler relies on Int, so you'd need to keep it within striking range of 19 as well. Those four classes alone will get you the vast majority of spells castable spontaneously an incredible number of times per day. Add Warlock (charisma based) and Dragonfire Adept invocations, and I highly doubt there's any magical effect you cannot acquire, essentially at will, all on a single character. Factotum would let them abuse the action economy with impunity and cover whatever spells they couldn't already acquire. They'd have the Paladin's charisma to saves, and a big bank of Turn Undead attempts with which to power dependant effects.

The chassis they'd be casting on would have all three initiators - with a d12 hit die, full BAB, and all high saves, with nearly every maneuver in the Book of Nine Swords...


I'm sorry, while I'm sure at uber-high-op shenanigans, a wizard might still come out marginally on top, that tier-3-and-lower uber-gestalt wins easily the vast majority of the time.
I think they're in roughly the same place, with one side hanging out on top depending on various factors. The tier one guy is definitely behind at really early levels, with a single ToB class serving as one of the best classes at first level, and with other things there's no comparison, and tier one guy is probably ahead at high levels, when the difference in spell list starts making a serious difference. It's definitely hanging out around that territory, though it's certainly not the uber-gestalt acting as a clear victor, as the OP implied.


Even the Tier 4 gestalt gets you warmage, warlock, and dragonfire adept. I strongly suspect the tier 4 gestalt will easily reach tier 2, but have a hard time breaking Tier 1. When you throw Tier 3's into it, you are hard pressed to find something that tier 1 can do that they can't replicate instantly.
This I definitely disagree with. The tier four spell list just doesn't favorably compare to what a sorcerer offers.

[Drachasor]

The challenge was initially "a gestalt of all classes tier 4 and lower." When Eggynack stated that you could make it Tier 3 and lower and it still probably wouldn't be tier 1, I objected. So this is ALL classes tier 3 and lower.

Missed that bit. Still, they don't get to T2.


The bard has most (but not all) of the wiz/sorc list from 1-6. (and a fair bit that isn't on the sorcerer's list, too.) The Beguiler does NOT.

The Bard doesn't even get half of the Wizard/Sorc list. It is much more limited. Again, what exactly is the bard bringing to the table spell-wise that the Beguiler can't do? Sure, the Bard has access to spells the Beguiler doesn't, but if those spells don't have unique problem-solving capabilities and power then it doesn't matter.

I'm just not seeing what you are here.


Fair enough. I was going off of the post on min max, which has a comment that the truenamer is either tier 4 or tier 6. Still, you get gate off of the healer list even if it isn't functionally at will, so the point stands.

I can't think of a single thing that a T1 class can do that I couldn't duplicate with a commoner that gets a few castings of CL20 gate each day.

Gate can be helpful, but without XP cheese it isn't nearly as useful as people pretend it is. Though alone it is a bit like a T2 ability with a very high cost.

The problem with stuff like this is it makes the Healer a bit like a T5 (most of the time), T2 (with gate and excess experience). Kind of undercuts its Tier classification if Gate can be freely used for summoning, which undercuts the "T4 and below".

The Dread Necromancer and Beguiler can have a similar classification problem.

[eggynack]

The Bard doesn't even get half of the Wizard/Sorc list. It is much more limited. Again, what exactly is the bard bringing to the table spell-wise that the Beguiler can't do? Sure, the Bard has access to spells the Beguiler doesn't, but if those spells don't have unique problem-solving capabilities and power then it doesn't matter.

I'm just not seeing what you are here.
The bard gets spells that the beguiler doesn't. In combination, the spell list covers more ground. I don't see what's so complicated about this one.

[Angelalex242]

As long as the charisma of the tier 4 gestalt is equal to the int of the wizard, saving throws means all the wizard's spells that require a save have a flat 5% chance of working. That's a bet I'm willing to take. Monks are very good at dealing with ranged touch spells and give the gestalt spell resistance, which is another annoyance for the wizard to figure out. Oh, and let's not forget Improved Evasion in the event the silly wizard bothers with a direct damage spell. And Slippery Mind should he target will save. And all the stealth skills of rangers and rogues combined. And the stacked mobility of Barbarian and Monk. If the wizard makes the mistake of being evil, he's certainly due to be smited, and the ranger can always select the wizard's race as a favored enemy. All the rogue's many, many, many skills are available. And sneak attack and flick of the wrist to render the poor wizard flat footed. Lastly, perhaps the biggest thing helping the Tier 4:Use Magic Device. And fighter feats means the tier 4's certainly going to be using the spiked chain improved trip combat reflexes, now with opportunist and crippling strike from rogue added in. And most spells DO provoke AoOs, also letting opportunist pull its weight.

[Snowbluff]

T4 and below. Two feats I can do more than any T1 with Warmage. At the very least, all of the bonus feats can be shuffled into replicated full casting. At level 20 I have gate from like 2 sources at least.

[Drachasor]

The bard gets spells that the beguiler doesn't. In combination, the spell list covers more ground. I don't see what's so complicated about this one.

Because if you are going to argue that there's a boost in power to move it up a tier, then you need more than new spells. You need more raw power or more versatility. If the new spells don't add either in practical terms, then they don't matter. Since the Bard is limited to Level 6 spells, basically, and you have level 9 already...this is a rather important issue.

So...what Bard spells are so good/unique that they give power on a level the Beguiler (or DM for that matter) doesn't have or allow problems to be solved that the Beguiler (or DM) can't already solve?

Because while it might cover a bit more ground in some sense, I'm not seeing how that coverage MATTERS in terms of the tier classification. Hence some examples would be nice.

[Piggy Knowles]

...snip...

All the stealth of the rogue and ranger combined don't even come close to the stealth of a wizard casting Mind Blank and Superior Invisibility.

I agree that a super-gestalt of T4 and below can be considered T1, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned.

[Talya]

The Bard doesn't even get half of the Wizard/Sorc list. It is much more limited. Again, what exactly is the bard bringing to the table spell-wise that the Beguiler can't do? Sure, the Bard has access to spells the Beguiler doesn't, but if those spells don't have unique problem-solving capabilities and power then it doesn't matter.

I'm just not seeing what you are here.


Basically, between Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, you have basically all of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy as schools.
Warmage gets you most of Evocation, and lets you cherrypick several spells from any school (including those Teleports Eggynack says you wouldn't get.)

The bard spell list is INCREDIBLE. Their list is far better than any of Beguiler/Warmage/DN individually, they just don't know all their spells like those classes do. They get almost all the best problem-solving spells that sorcerers do, but only levels 1-6. However, now they can focus those more. They're not going to need to pick any spells from the schools listed above. They can focus on areas not already covered by Beguiler/DN/Warmage, or by invocations from Warlock/DFA (which themselves were picked based on what you can't do as a beguiler/warmage/DN.) In the end, you end up knowing 80% of all spells (or effects that can duplicate those spells) that are worth knowing. That's probably more than even the wizard knows, because while the wizard CAN know all their spells, they don't. (And someone mentioned Healer, which they'd also be able to avoid overlapping spells there.)

Your bard in this is likely to grab spells from Divination, Conjuration and Transmutation (the big things missing from the list above, apart from the few the warmage can grab.)

[j_spencer93]

Just make a quick character of level 20 wizard, and level 20 gestalts tier 3 and lower, and make a mock battle. Take prob 2 hours, and got a feeling tier 3 and lower gestalt would win.

[j_spencer93]

Actually i believe tired 3 and lower gestalt would win if they caught the wizard without his defensive spells on, but would be crushed if both came completly prepared.

[eggynack]

Just make a quick character of level 20 wizard, and level 20 gestalts tier 3 and lower, and make a mock battle. Take prob 2 hours, and got a feeling tier 3 and lower gestalt would win.
That'd take infinite time and be completely non-indicative. It wouldn't even tell us who's superior at level 20, because arena battles are meaningless, and it would tell us even less at level not-20, because the characters would be level 20. Also, this fight can't possibly occur, because astral projection, and because ice assassin, and because whatever.

[Jormengand]

Actually i believe tired 3 and lower gestalt would win if they caught the wizard without his defensive spells on, but would be crushed if both came completly prepared.

A T3 or lower... no, a T4 or lower gestalt can cast every 8th or lower level spell in existence practically at will. Swift action.

[Drachasor]

Basically, between Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, you have basically all of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy as schools.
Warmage gets you most of Evocation, and lets you cherrypick several spells from any school (including those Teleports Eggynack says you wouldn't get.)

The bard spell list is INCREDIBLE. Their list is far better than any of Beguiler/Warmage/DN individually, they just don't know all their spells like those classes do. They get almost all the best problem-solving spells that sorcerers do, but only levels 1-6. However, now they can focus those more. They're not going to need to pick any spells from the schools listed above. They can focus on areas not already covered by Beguiler/DN/Warmage, or by invocations from Warlock/DFA (which themselves were picked based on what you can't do as a beguiler/warmage/DN.) In the end, you end up knowing 80% of all spells (or effects that can duplicate those spells) that are worth knowing. That's probably more than even the wizard knows, because while the wizard CAN know all their spells, they don't. (And someone mentioned Healer, which they'd also be able to avoid overlapping spells there.)

Again, give me an example of a spell the Bard is bringing to the table. I've looked at their list compared to the DM and Beguiler. I am not seeing what's so great that isn't already there or doesn't have an equivalent. Frankly, an Uber-Bard that knows every spell on the Bard list is not remotely T2.

And the DM, Beguiler, Warmage combo is missing access to the best schools (Conjuration and Transmutation). And ones with critical elements (Divination). Sure they get some of those spells, but not a lot of the really good ones and they can't get access to them either.

Anyhow, this is kind of off-topic, since DM, Beguiler, and Bard are T3. This issue is complicated enough that a T3 Gestalt probably needs its own thread.

[j_spencer93]

Aw i see your point that would only prove who could beat who not exactly who is better in the game world. Then a agree with another's statement, i think it depends more of the situation at hand, although LV 20 wizard pretty dang impressive as is cleric.

[Talya]

Again, give me an example of a spell the Bard is bringing to the table. I've looked at their list compared to the DM and Beguiler. I am not seeing what's so great that isn't already there or doesn't have an equivalent. Frankly, an Uber-Bard that knows every spell on the Bard list is not remotely T2.

And the DM, Beguiler, Warmage combo is missing access to the best schools (Conjuration and Transmutation). And ones with critical elements (Divination). Sure they get some of those spells, but not a lot of the really good ones and they can't get access to them either.

You answered your own question.

A bard is NOT missing many elements of Abjuration, Conjuration, Transmutation, or Divination. The few they ARE missing, can be madeup with Warmage Ecclectic Learning.

I'm not claiming a bard that knows all its spells is tier 2. They get them too late, and they only go to level 6. The bard may be at the very top of tier 3 (which it is), but it's still solidly tier 3.

However, what I am saying, is that with Bard, Beguiler, Dragonfire Adept, Dread Necromancer, Warlock, and Warmage, you have almost 90% of the entire wizard spell list available to a single character, on demand, and with enough spell slots to basically say you can cast them at will. You also have several great spells that wizards do not get, which probably makes it a wash.

[Piggy Knowles]

A better solution would be to run them both through the Same Game Test.

But again, it's all meaningless at level 20. Once the super gestalt can, say, gate in a solar to steal miracle or a black ethergaunt to steal shapechange, there is no functional difference between them and a wizard.

[Drachasor]

A T3 or lower... no, a T4 or lower gestalt can cast every 8th or lower level spell in existence practically at will. Swift action.

How do you get that?

[Drachasor]

You answered your own question.

A bard is NOT missing many elements of Abjuration, Conjuration, Transmutation, or Divination. The few they ARE missing, can be madeup with Warmage Ecclectic Learning.

Sure a Bard is. They are missing a ton of Abjuration, Conjuration, Transmutation, and Divination. I could name 5 major spells of each of those schools they don't have and can't do the equivalent of if you want.

I mean, come on, how hard is it to give me a couple examples of spells they bring to the table? I've looked at the list and I am not seeing what you are. So please enlighten me. Something more than the equivalent of "the list is great" please.

[Talya]

Go ahead. Keep your list levels 1-6, which is what we're discussing with the bard.

I'll venture to say that the average sorcerer doesn't even take all the spells you list, and the gestalt warmage could grab the remainder with eclectic learning.

[Jormengand]

How do you get that?

I'm counting truenamer, because it is usually considered T4 or even lower (Just because a class doesn't function as intended doesn't mean you can't tier it)). Quickened conjunctive gate, get a solar angel to cast miracle and wish. Or you can grab two efreeti who can each grant 3 wishes. Or, if you want ninth level spells, psionic powers or whatever else, there is a creature of 40 or fewer HD, somewhere, in some book, that can cast it.

Solars can also cast gate. Yes, yes I did just.

I think there's something else that can use a Gate SLA if you don't like that, but it might have to be *Gasp* a standard action.

[Talya]

I didn't check the other class lists, i'm just cherrypicking off the top of my head from spells that aren't in schools that DN/Beguiler/Warmage typically get, but here's what bard brings to the table, just from a quick look at a handbook:

Prestidigitation, Grease, Beastland Ferocity, Cheat, Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Master's Touch, Combined Talent, Share Talents, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Grace, Sonorous Hum, Whirling Blade, Magic Savant, Harmonize, Dispel Magic, Haste, Slow, Listening Coin, Alter Fortune, Dimension Door, Protégé, Ruin Delver's Fortune (pure gold there), Sirine's Grace, Celerity, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Blink, Nixie's Grace, Superior Resistance, the ENTIRE Summon Monster (or better yet, Summon Nature's Ally) line of spells from 1-6.

There are also several illusions that Beguilers don't get and it would be inconvenient to take with advanced learning, that seriously boost versatility (Shadow spells).

[Drachasor]

Go ahead. Keep your list levels 1-6, which is what we're discussing with the bard.

I'll venture to say that the average sorcerer doesn't even take all the spells you list, and the gestalt warmage could grab the remainder with eclectic learning.

Divination: Contact Other Plane, Vision, Assay Resistance, Telepathic Bond (and interplanar version).

Conjuration: All the Summon Spells, Gate, Teleporting spells, Maze, Planar Bindings, Plane Shift, etc, etc.

Transmutation: Polymorphing spells, Fly, Shrink Item, Stone Shape, Transmute Rock to Mud (and vice versa), Fabricate...

Abjuration: Disjunction, Dimensional Lock, Anti-Magic Field, Globe of Invulnerability, Stoneskin, Explosive Runes, Resist Energy

[Drachasor]

I didn't check the other class lists, i'm just cherrypicking off the top of my head from spells that aren't in schools that DN/Beguiler/Warmage typically get, but here's what bard brings to the table, just from a quick look at a handbook:

Prestidigitation, Grease, Beastland Ferocity, Cheat, Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Master's Touch, Combined Talent, Share Talents, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Grace, Sonorous Hum, Whirling Blade, Magic Savant, Harmonize, Dispel Magic, Haste, Slow, Listening Coin, Alter Fortune, Dimension Door, Protégé, Ruin Delver's Fortune (pure gold there), Sirine's Grace, Celerity, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Blink, Nixie's Grace, Superior Resistance, the ENTIRE Summon Monster (or better yet, Summon Nature's Ally) line of spells from 1-6.

There are also several illusions that Beguilers don't get and it would be inconvenient to take with advanced learning, that seriously boost versatility (Shadow spells).

Summon Monster isn't that great for them. Level 1 isn't very good and their summons are weak at the level they get them (which is why I included them as something they don't get...because they aren't very effective for them when they get them and they miss the higher level ones).

Beguiler gets dispels, haste, slow, and glitterdust. And while I am not saying the spells you have there are bad, I am also not seeing what's so unique about them that they solve new problems. They certainly don't alter the world.

So far I think Scrying is probably the biggest boost the Bard provides, which you ironically didn't list. :)

[icefractal]

The thing is, if you're operating at arbitrarily high levels of optimization, then it all comes down to infinite wish loops and ice assassins. In which case there are really only two tiers of characters:
1) People who can jump on the crazy train (and being able to buy a Candle of Invocation is enough to qualify).
2) People who can't.

Spellcasting? Why rely on pathetic Wizard 20 casting when you can have an army of 40th+ level casters at your command? Some classes give you better hp? Not so important once you're in the body of the Tarrasque. Not that you should ever be personally attackable anyway, or else you probably lose to your opponent's army of 40th+ level casters.

[Eldest]

Name an effect that Tier 1s can do (without stupid-ly high op-fu) between levels 6 and 15 that the tier 3 uber gestalt could not.

It's fairly hard.

Teleport twice. Plane Shift. Break Enchantment. Geas. Scry-and-die an enemy with summoned troops with one day's advance notice (one day to prep, the next you attack).

These are effects that I can think of that I do not think that ubergestalt would be able to do.

[Ionbound]

I'll make another point in the Bard's favor: Glibness. This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) explains why. And this is one of the few spells that is, IIRC, unique to the Bard.

[Snowbluff]

I'll make another point in the Bard's favor: Glibness. This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) explains why. And this is one of the few spells that is, IIRC, unique to the Bard.

You mean the third level Beguiler spell?

[Angelalex242]

And...wizards don't have sense motive.

"You don't want to annihilate me into next year Mr. Wizard. In fact, you were just thinking of giving me all your magical items, and just decided to do so..."

[Prime32]

And...wizards don't have sense motive.

"You don't want to annihilate me into next year Mr. Wizard. In fact, you were just thinking of giving me all your magical items, and just decided to do so...""Sorry, I think I've had too much dwarven eggnog. Forget what I said a minute ago, no items."

Y'know, unless the wizard was somehow bound to always keep his word or something.

[purpenflurb]

Warmage gets you most of Evocation, and lets you cherrypick several spells from any school (including those Teleports Eggynack says you wouldn't get.)

This is not true. The warmage can only pick spells from evocation. Not only that, but it is missing a lot of the best evocations. Contingency and howling chain, for instance. You can pick some of them up, but you still won't be half as good of an evoker as a wizard or probably even sorcerer could.

[Talya]

This is not true. The warmage can only pick spells from evocation.
That's not true. It's true if you use the "Advanced Learning" class feature, but if you use the ACF "Eclectic Learning" (which I mentioned above) they can pick from all schools.

While it's a common houserule to allow eclectic learning for beguilers and dread necromancers, it's only listed as an ACF for warmages.

As for all the other spells listed, there's only a few that I've ever had need to use in a very long time playing. I will admit another was cast by a party cleric, once, during a 5 year campaign, so i'll include it, too.

Assay Spell Resistance - Awesome spell, and I'd miss it. I agree. This doesn't make a tier difference, though.

Planar Binding. I don't like these spells. In fact, I don't like anything that requires planning ahead or preparation. if it's not useable on the fly, it's not that useful to me. That said, they're quite powerful if used well.

Teleport - the only one of these worth taking is Greater. Any failure chance at all means you should never cast it. Greater Teleport, however is a 7th level spell, and therefore outside the scope of what I said. (warmage should probably grab it with eclectic learning, anyway.)

Polymorph - these are good spells, although the only one I have a use for is P.A.O., which is level 8 and again outside the scope. Polymorph itself is one I tend to skip. It's not one I'd ever take on a sorcerer and generally not worth keeping memorized as a wizard. However, the uber-gestalt DOES get Alter Self and Baleful Polymorph.

Plane Shift - This is the one I'd never keep memorized, nor take on a sorcerer, and have only ever seen cast once in many years of play (by a party cleric.) Still, in the event you need it, the uber-gestalt does not have access to it.

Any way, what you miss from the above certainly doesn't make up even half a tier by itself.

Others:
Summon Spells. Bard certainly can cover that. Grab Summon Nature's Ally 4,5 and 6 using Savage Bard. They're worth it. (Better than going with the standard Summon Monster spells)

[Heliomance]

I would note that the Uber-Gestalt will have enough UMD to be able to activate any scroll you care to point it at. And IIRC, Warlock lets it take 10.

[Snowbluff]

I would note that the Uber-Gestalt will have enough UMD to be able to activate any scroll you care to point it at. And IIRC, Warlock lets it take 10.

Mhm. Warlocks can also craft any item, regardless of spells required.

[Thiyr]

A useful note for lower levels as well, you've already got the benefit of having some ranger in there as well. Even if we're ignoring mystic ranger, SotAO gives some solid versatility in there. Esp if you add in versatile spellcaster. Got the slots from warmage no matter what anyway. And if tossing something in your spellbook qualifies as knowing a spell, then you've got access to enough to make up the difference very quickly. That's somewhat questionable, but still worth considering I'd think.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, when it comes down to it what makes tier ones/twos tier one/two is their ability to just randomly break the game. I don't think gestalting t3s or t4s together really allows that to happen. Does it get them access to wish? Miracle? Long range scrying? Ice Assassin? Genesis? Shapeshift? Simulacrum? Having access to just one gamebreaking tool at all should be enough to qualify the class for T2 status (hence why most agree shaman, Shugenja, and Wu Jen are at least T2 even though they are often considered to be underwhelming).


Edit: As for the gamebreaking nature of Glibness, remember that any lie that is told that can easily be reverified as true is only believed until the reverification happens. The example comic takes a number of liberties for the sake of humor. You generally cannot lie to people that they are different species, and the "you don't hear or see us" lie only works until they see or hear you again, which if you remain in their line of sight is, well, immediately. Glibness is a great spell, but by RAW it is not invisibility to anyone who speaks the same language as you and can't roll a good sense motive check.

[eggynack]

Honestly, when it comes down to it what makes tier ones/twos tier one/two is their ability to just randomly break the game. I don't think gestalting t3s or t4s together really allows that to happen. Does it get them access to wish? Miracle? Long range scrying? Ice Assassin? Genesis? Shapeshift? Simulacrum? Having access to just one gamebreaking tool at all should be enough to qualify the class for T2 status (hence why most agree shaman, Shugenja, and Wu Jen are at least T2 even though they are often considered to be underwhelming).
I think you're emphasizing high level tricks a bit too much. As I say on occasion, being tier one has a lot more to do with alter self than it has to do with shape change. I mean, if one game breaking trick is enough to bump you to tier two, then we don't even need to gestalt all of the tier 4 and below classes, because both the truenamer and healer get access to gate.

[Ionbound]

You mean the third level Beguiler spell?

Sorry, not that familiar with Beguiler, but the point is the same. Glibness lets you do a lot of interesting things, and it is a spell no T1 class has.

[Ansem]

T4 gestalt definitely. No debate possible.

[eggynack]

T4 gestalt definitely. No debate possible.
That answer doesn't seem to reflect either the truth, or the pretty heavy amount of debate going on right in front of your eyes. I think that most folks in this thread agree that the tier 1 class will be generally superior, so if no debate is occurring, it'd probably be because we've settled on that conclusion, rather than the one you've presented. In fact, I think the current debate is whether the tier 4 uber-gestalt can equal a tier 2 class, and I'm pretty doubtful about that as well. The gestalt would probably end up high tier 3, or maybe low tier 2 in my estimation.

[Talya]

Honestly, when it comes down to it what makes tier ones/twos tier one/two is their ability to just randomly break the game. I don't think gestalting t3s or t4s together really allows that to happen. Does it get them access to wish? Miracle? Long range scrying? Ice Assassin? Genesis? Shapeshift? Simulacrum? Having access to just one gamebreaking tool at all should be enough to qualify the class for T2 status (hence why most agree shaman, Shugenja, and Wu Jen are at least T2 even though they are often considered to be underwhelming).


Level 9 spells are not factored into the tier system, at all. It evaluates levels 6-15.

[Kennisiou]

That answer doesn't seem to reflect either the truth, or the pretty heavy amount of debate going on right in front of your eyes. I think that most folks in this thread agree that the tier 1 class will be generally superior, so if no debate is occurring, it'd probably be because we've settled on that conclusion, rather than the one you've presented. In fact, I think the current debate is whether the tier 4 uber-gestalt can equal a tier 2 class, and I'm pretty doubtful about that as well. The gestalt would probably end up high tier 3, or maybe low tier 2 in my estimation.

I'd honestly think high t3 rather than low, although that mostly is on the back of Warlock and Barbarian, two classes I both think are t3 quality but are often placed in t4 instead. Also, ranger and scout are t4 but swift hunter is generally considered a t3 build. Gestalting them together is strictly better than being a swift hunter, and gestalting a swift hunter onto a bunch of other classes is definitely high t3 in my book at the very least.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I mistyped that originally. High tier 3 is about where I'd place it as well.

[MirddinEmris]

Ploymorph is accessible through Hexblade and Dread Necromancer has Planar Binding and it's lesser version. Bard gets a lot of scrying, including Greater Scrying. Also Bard has Shadow Conjuration and Evocation to replicate some effects and while they don't get Teleport, they do get Shadow Walk for long range travel.

I don't think that will push then in a T1 category, because all this tricks they will get later in game than prime spellcasters and i still can't put them in the same category as druids in my mind.

[Hytheter]

How would you go about building the T4- Gestalt anyway? You can't get the full benefit of every class because that'll make you MAD as hell, so how would you prioritise?

[MirddinEmris]

I'd honestly think high t3 rather than low, although that mostly is on the back of Warlock and Barbarian, two classes I both think are t3 quality but are often placed in t4 instead. Also, ranger and scout are t4 but swift hunter is generally considered a t3 build. Gestalting them together is strictly better than being a swift hunter, and gestalting a swift hunter onto a bunch of other classes is definitely high t3 in my book at the very least.

Well, the Swift Hunter also allows you to apply your skirmish to favored foes normally immune to criticals, which pure ranger/scout gestalt will not.

[Talya]

How would you go about building the T4- Gestalt anyway? You can't get the full benefit of every class because that'll make you MAD as hell, so how would you prioritise?

Give me a full list of classes. You'd prioritize them by which ones you could exploit the best.

My guess with tier 4s? Charisma is going to be highest. You can get more things to key off charisma than any other ability score. Then Constitution. Wisdom for healer/ranger/paladin spells. You won't need intelligence -- you're getting 8 skills per level and have no class abilities that key off it.

Don't knock the healer here, she's bringing a lot to this gestalt, even if it's just the prepared spell slots. Nothing prevents her from using a big pile of exalted spells.


============================================
Hey, on the tier 3 gestalt - I completely forgot about binder. And the incarnum users as well. Yet another reason the tier 3 and lower gestalt is going to be tier 1.

[Kennisiou]

How would you go about building the T4- Gestalt anyway? You can't get the full benefit of every class because that'll make you MAD as hell, so how would you prioritise?

I'd honestly go with a two weapon fighter focused swift hunter type thing. Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barb + Swift Hunter stuff + rogue sneak attacks. 10 str 14 everything else assuming 32 point buy. Compliment your main prowess with rogue skill points, psirogue manifesting and warlock invocations. The other casting/manifesting/invocations are nice and you can pick them up with some +stat gear, but mostly your goal is to be a swift hunting two weapon menace that gets several attacks a round all with tons of bonuses while being a skillmonkey with some out of combat utility spells. If you add in the "and below" parts you also get weapon finesse and +int to damage on the swashbuckler end. And acrobatic charge. It's pretty much all of the things that was mentioned in the two weapon fighting thread a few days ago all on one class list. All you miss out on are mobility/boost maneuvers and a turning pool to power travel devotion, but you should be able to more than make up for that. And heck, if you want +dex to damage it's three feats and you'll get fighter bonus feats from dungeoncrasher fighter being gestalted on and the maneuver and stance gain feats you need to qualify for shadow blade are available as fighter bonus feats.

Also, not sure how gestalt works, but with rogue and psirogue do you actually add their sneak attacks together?

[Talya]

I'd honestly go with a two weapon fighter focused swift hunter type thing. Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barb + Swift Hunter stuff + rogue sneak attacks. 10 str 14 everything else assuming 32 point buy. Compliment your main prowess with rogue skill points, psirogue manifesting and warlock invocations. The other casting/manifesting/invocations are nice and you can pick them up with some +stat gear, but mostly your goal is to be a swift hunting two weapon menace that gets several attacks a round all with tons of bonuses while being a skillmonkey with some out of combat utility spells. If you add in the "and below" parts you also get weapon finesse and +int to damage on the swashbuckler end. And acrobatic charge. It's pretty much all of the things that was mentioned in the two weapon fighting thread a few days ago all on one class list. All you miss out on are mobility/boost maneuvers and a turning pool to power travel devotion, but you should be able to more than make up for that. And heck, if you want +dex to damage it's three feats and you'll get fighter bonus feats from dungeoncrasher fighter being gestalted on and the maneuver and stance gain feats you need to qualify for shadow blade are available as fighter bonus feats.

Also, not sure how gestalt works, but with rogue and psirogue do you actually add their sneak attacks together?

You're not escaping far out of your tier by focusing on physical damage.

[Kennisiou]

You're not escaping far out of your tier by focusing on physical damage.

You've still got plenty of non-damaging options without much focus just on the basis of having 8+int skill points and the manifesting options of psirogue and invocation access of warlock (and spells of the healer if you get access to t5 classes). You have better damage and skill monkeying than a swift hunter, which is often considered t3. You're basically a factotum with better damage but no ability to break action economy. And arguably better magic options since you're running around with psirogue manifesting and warlock invocations and healer spells, which I'd consider all added up being much better than factotum's spellcasting abilities.

Also, we all keep forgetting Adept. It only takes 16 wis to get full adept casting, which is pretty easily accessible on the build I mentioned. I feel like with all of these classes gestalted together you don't really need to focus your feats or items on anything other than damage, since you just... you just have out of combat handled? Like between rogue, warlock, psirogue, adept, scout, spellthief, marshal... you should just have some way to handle any problem that can't be solved with your swords


Although now that I see marshal there where I hadn't before... man. +cha to everything sure seems nice...

[Hytheter]

Would it be a good idea to use Unarmed Strikes, since you get the full Monk Progression? Unarmed Strikes do get the benefit of Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike after all. Flurry of Blows is probably better than TWF too, at level 11 its one less attack but you get three attacks at full BAB, followed by normal iteratives instead of two attacks at BAB -2 and the rest with sharply increasing penalties.

[AmberVael]

Give me a full list of classes. You'd prioritize them by which ones you could exploit the best.

Tier 4: Adept, Barbarian, Hexblade, Marshal, Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage
Tier 5: Expert, Fighter, Healer, Knight, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Soulknife, Swashbuckler
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Samurai, Warrior
Other: Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Soulborn

'Spellcasting' stats
Constitution: Soulborn
Intelligence: Lurk, Psychic Rogue
Wisdom: Adept, Divine Mind, Healer (Per day), Paladin, Ranger
Charisma: Healer (DC), Hexblade, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage

Charisma features:
Minor Auras (Marshal)
Save bonuses (Hexblade, Paladin)
Healing (Dragon Shaman, Paladin)
Smiting (Paladin, Samurai, Soulborn)
Knight's Challenge (Knight)
It is also simple to use it for intimidate (samurai), UMD (warlock), and for AC (via ascetic mage).

[Kennisiou]

Tier 4: Adept, Barbarian, Hexblade, Marshal, Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage
Tier 5: Expert, Fighter, Healer, Knight, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Soulknife, Swashbuckler
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Samurai, Warrior
Other: Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Soulborn

'Spellcasting' stats
Constitution: Soulborn
Intelligence: Lurk, Psychic Rogue
Wisdom: Adept, Divine Mind, Healer (Per day), Paladin, Ranger
Charisma: Healer (DC), Hexblade, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage

Charisma features:
Minor Auras (Marshal)
Save bonuses (Hexblade, Paladin)
Healing (Dragon Shaman, Paladin)
Smiting (Paladin, Samurai, Soulborn)
Knight's Challenge (Knight)
It is also simple to use it for intimidate (samurai), UMD (warlock), and for AC (via ascetic mage).

Worth noting the hexblade and paladin save bonuses don't stack, so you'd want to consider maybe ACF'ing away the paladin bonuses (yeah, the paladin ones, since you can't ACF the Hexblade ones even though they're basically worse).

Also, you're missing:

Cha features:
Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Wild Empathy (ranger)

Int features:
Int to damage on light melee weapons (Swashbuckler)
Int to AC (Monk with Kung Fu Genius or Carmdine Monk)
Int to Initiative (Lurk)

Wisdom Features:
Wis to AC (Monk)
Wis to saves (Paladin with Serenity)
Smite (Paladin with Serenity)
Lay on Hands (Paladin with Serenity)

And I'm sure I'm missing a ton of other ACFs and stuff. Charisma is definitely a great stat, but don't write off int or wisdom either. Also, remember the unstatted benefits that still require some degree of "build around me" to be effective. At level 7 you have, like, 6d6 of sneak attack damage with another 2d6 of skirmish damage on top of that. Spirit Lion Totem + Swashbuckler means you're full attacking on a charge with whirling frenzy bonus on any terrain, meaning you should pretty much never be incapable of moving and making a full attack. I get that there are diminishing returns here, but I just want to reiterate: there are so many D6s on your attacks.

[Talya]

Paladin can also get you charisma to damage with Divine Might, Charisma to AC with divine shield.

But you need wisdom at 19 minimum (by level 17) to abuse healer's spell slots. You also get wisdom to AC twice. And Adept/Ranger/Paladin spellcasting.

Hytheter: if you took the urban brawler barbarian variant, you would get Two Weapon Fighting with your unarmed strikes, and be able to flurry too.

With full BAB, and charisma to damage from paladin/divine might, it's not a terrible option. Charisma's going to be your primary score though. You end up MAD, but not brutally so. Charisma, Wisdom, Constitution are prioritized, the other stuff you grab as you can.

[AmberVael]

Worth noting the hexblade and paladin save bonuses don't stack, so you'd want to consider maybe ACF'ing away the paladin bonuses (yeah, the paladin ones, since you can't ACF the Hexblade ones even though they're basically worse).
They're different features, with different names, that give untyped bonuses to things that are technically different that aren't called out to not stack with each other. So mind explaining how you came to this conclusion?


Also, you're missing:
Cha features:
Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Wild Empathy (ranger)
Lay on hands is under 'healing,' along with the similar healing pool abilities.
I didn't think of Wild Empathy as worth noting. That said, Turn Undead from paladin probably is.

As for the non-charisma features, most of those require more investment or alteration, there aren't as many, and an intelligence or wisdom focused character had not been brought up. In short, I was trying to list information that would be useful and requested.

[Kennisiou]

They're different features, with different names, that give untyped bonuses to things that are technically different that aren't called out to not stack with each other. So mind explaining how you came to this conclusion?

I mixed up the hexblade +Cha to everything for spells with Crusadeer +Cha to will, which is called out as not stacking with paladin. Sorry, my bad.

As for the rest, fair enough, although the most attractive ones in my book require nothing (Monk AC bonus and Lurk initiative bonus).

[Lans]

Planar Binding. I don't like these spells. In fact, I don't like anything that requires planning ahead or preparation. if it's not useable on the fly, it's not that useful to me. That said, they're quite powerful if used well.Dread necro gets it, it doesn't get protection spells to make proper use of it though.





Plane Shift - This is the one I'd never keep memorized, nor take on a sorcerer, and have only ever seen cast once in many years of play (by a party cleric.) Still, in the event you need it, the uber-gestalt does not have access to it. Shadow caster and healer both have this covered in a janky fashion




Don't knock the healer here, she's bringing a lot to this gestalt, even if it's just the prepared spell slots. Nothing prevents her from using a big pile of exalted spells.


Her companion is also bringing another set of actions.


Teleport twice. Plane Shift. Break Enchantment. Geas. Scry-and-die an enemy with summoned troops with one day's advance notice (one day to prep, the next you attack).

These are effects that I can think of that I do not think that ubergestalt would be able to do.

Bard has geas, and scry, healers and shadow casters can plane shift, not sure why break enchantment is important, warmages can teleport more than once per day


Maybe at really low levels, but honestly the comparison comes across a lot like the normal tier one against tier four or five comparison. At around five or below, the gestalt is comparable to a wizard, and above that the wizard comes out ahead. Druids likely continue to dominate from level one to twenty, and clerics have a decent chance of doing the same.
I don't think they are, whirling frenzy barbarian comes out pretty well against venom fired flesh rakers, and we are adding more benifits on top of it.


There's not that much that you get from the fighting class end of the gestalt. Like, is a fighter 1//monk 1//ranger 1// barbarian 1... so much better than a barbarian 1? Better, obviously, but not on any truly meaningful scale.
Better initiative, saves, can charge over difficult terrain, and at lower levels it doesn't burn out as much. Whirling frenzy adds like 15 damage a round, scout, rogue, ninja add 10, and fighter might add up to 5.


The Tier 3 uber-gestalt only gets a bit tricky because of maybe two classes or so that are just at the cusp of being Tier 2 -- and arguably are low Tier 2 with the right choices made. Without the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer I don't think it hits Tier 2. Sure, it is very effective at a wide variety of local tasks, but it just doesn't have the RAW POWER needed. It is not world-altering. With the Beguiler and DM though, it is Tier 2, but I don't think it hits Tier 1 (still too limited in what it can do).

.

Shadow caster, healer, and warmage still bring quite a bit to the table between arcane disciple, spell casting companion and things

[Baroknik]

Haven't read everything yet, but at 20 I would actually say the über gestalt... Why? Because I'm assuming Truenamer tier is below tier 4 -- Conjunctive Gate FTW!

[erikun]

To anyone saying Truenamer: remember that the Truenamer requires a large investment in items/feats, and a high INT focus, to even be able to use its abilities. Creating a character with CHA focus and ignoring bonuses to Truenaming would likely just result in Truenamer abilites that can't even be used.

Super-T4 vs T1, 5th level would likely depend on which class we are talking about. Wizards tend to prefer another level or two (or a bunch of magic items) before they're truly self-reliant at this point, and so would likely lose out. Most Clerics at this point stand up rather well, but may not have the utility needed. I'd have a hard time saying that the Super-T4 is better than the Druid at this point, though.

At 10th and 15th level, though, I'm clearly giving it to the T1. They have more spell choices, better spell choices, and plenty of stamina for most days. Warlocks will have flying/invisibility and Warmage damage, but Wizards have had that for five levels at this point and do it better anyways.

At 20th level, the comparison is between Wizard's Wish vs Truenamer/Healer's Wish. At this point, I'd still have to hand it to the Wizard. They're likely casting it more often (thanks to a necessary focus on CHA casting) and could potentially have been doing so for 7 levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) at this point. Most of the rest the Super-T4 has at this point is pretty unimpressive in comparison.


I'm not going to touch on the Super-T3 vs T1, mainly because I'm not familiar with the spell lists available. Although if the Super-T3 has access to most of the T1's strongest tricks, then it's probably a T1 by default.

[Baroknik]

To anyone saying Truenamer: remember that the Truenamer requires a large investment in items/feats, and a high INT focus, to even be able to use its abilities. Creating a character with CHA focus and ignoring bonuses to Truenaming would likely just result in Truenamer abilites that can't even be used.

Super-T4 vs T1, 5th level would likely depend on which class we are talking about. Wizards tend to prefer another level or two (or a bunch of magic items) before they're truly self-reliant at this point, and so would likely lose out. Most Clerics at this point stand up rather well, but may not have the utility needed. I'd have a hard time saying that the Super-T4 is better than the Druid at this point, though.

At 10th and 15th level, though, I'm clearly giving it to the T1. They have more spell choices, better spell choices, and plenty of stamina for most days. Warlocks will have flying/invisibility and Warmage damage, but Wizards have had that for five levels at this point and do it better anyways.

At 20th level, the comparison is between Wizard's Wish vs Truenamer/Healer's Wish. At this point, I'd still have to hand it to the Wizard. They're likely casting it more often (thanks to a necessary focus on CHA casting) and could potentially have been doing so for 7 levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) at this point. Most of the rest the Super-T4 has at this point is pretty unimpressive in comparison.


I'm not going to touch on the Super-T3 vs T1, mainly because I'm not familiar with the spell lists available. Although if the Super-T3 has access to most of the T1's strongest tricks, then it's probably a T1 by default.

While I meant mine fairly tongue in cheek, with some skill op, I doubt a wizard is wishing more than a truenamer. Gating in a free wish every round is pretty much as often as possible.

[erikun]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I thought the Gate would require a Truename check and/or limited number per day. I'm sure someone will correct it one way or another, so my apologies if I misremembered the ability.

[MeiLeTeng]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I thought the Gate would require a Truename check and/or limited number per day. I'm sure someone will correct it one way or another, so my apologies if I misremembered the ability.

It does require a Truename check yes, but because of the wording of the rules on truenaming any utterance from Lexicon of Perfected Map is just DC 15 before any modifiers for Law of Resistance etc

[Malroth]

At that point you're either cheesed out to the point where you can arbritarily pass any truespeak DC or you're unable to use truespeech at all. Plus wish yourself to a fast time plane, sleep to reset the speech DC's then wish to teleport yourself back the next "round"

[Baroknik]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I thought the Gate would require a Truename check and/or limited number per day. I'm sure someone will correct it one way or another, so my apologies if I misremembered the ability.

It's a DC 45, which you should be able to pass easily at 20 with minimal optimization towards it. Pick up Exemplar (true speak) as one of your gestalts and you can always take a 10, meaning it's a puddly +35 required to auto pass even.

[Baroknik]

It does require a Truename check yes, but because of the wording of the rules on truenaming any utterance from Lexicon of Perfected Map is just DC 15 before any modifiers for Law of Resistance etc

DCs of perfected map were in the errata, DC 25+5*level (CG is lvl 4)+5 more if affecting a "magical place"

[MeiLeTeng]

I swear Errata will be the death of me.

[TuggyNE]

While I meant mine fairly tongue in cheek, with some skill op, I doubt a wizard is wishing more than a truenamer. Gating in a free wish every round is pretty much as often as possible.

Since the gate, if memory serves, lasts a full minute (and because of Sequence) it's more like once a minute.

[Drachasor]

The Truenamer doesn't have a Tier classification because it is broken on many levels. So it isn't part of the uber-gestalt.

Frankly, it is a bit bizarre to say "oh, I assume this guy is part of it, and look at all the T1 stuff he can do!" Kind of indicates the Truenamer's problem.

Anyhow, while I'd like to explore the T3 uber gestalt, I think it confuses the conversation in this thread. So I'm just going to focus on the T4- gestalt.

So its best spells (which are pretty much necessary for T1 classification) are from the Warmage and Healer. It also has some weak spellcasters like the Paladin and Ranger. Even with Eclectic Learning for the Warmage (which I am not 100% sure that doesn't push it up to low Tier 3), I don't think you can break T3 with that setup.

You do get great damage-dealing capability via sneak attacks. You can fly, become invisible, deal damage with spells, and heal. I think that's about it. Too little.

And considering magic items is generally not allowed for tier classification, since anyone can them. It just muddles the water when you are considering class abilities.

[eggynack]

I don't think they are, whirling frenzy barbarian comes out pretty well against venom fired flesh rakers, and we are adding more benifits on top of it.
Maybe, but this comparison isn't between a venomfire using fleshraker and the uber-gestalt. It's between a druid and the uber-gestalt. Druids get spells, and those spells provide a qualitative difference that is much stronger than what a melee guy is doing at level five. The part of the comparison where the animal companion is actually relevant is at levels one and two. There too we have a riding dog acting as an inferior melee combatant to the uber-gestalt, but that is once again not the actual comparison that is occurring. The riding dog merely needs to be a strong body that the druid can hide behind, and that can act as a kill condition when the druid is shooting out BFC based inevitability. The riding dog also provides endurance, which is highly relevant when you're not getting all that many slots. Overall, the first level druid setup is one I'd consider superior to the uber-gestalt.



Better initiative, saves, can charge over difficult terrain, and at lower levels it doesn't burn out as much. Whirling frenzy adds like 15 damage a round, scout, rogue, ninja add 10, and fighter might add up to 5.

Sure, but it's not that much of a qualitative difference, which is what you'd really need for a tier bump. It'd be a lot more meaningful to state how quickly this character can acquire combat styles, and how good he'd be at them, but I'm doubtful that such an argument would be worthy of the jump from 4 to 3. It'd get closer though.


The Truenamer doesn't have a Tier classification because it is broken on many levels. So it isn't part of the uber-gestalt.
I disagree. The truenamer is unclassified primarily because of the big jump in power that is provided by optimization, but that jump generally maxes out the truenamer's tier at 4. It hovers around the area between 4-6, never touching an area above 4, so if we're considering an amalgam of tier 4 and lower classes, including the truenamer makes sense.

[Drachasor]

I disagree. The truenamer is unclassified primarily because of the big jump in power that is provided by optimization, but that jump generally maxes out the truenamer's tier at 4. It hovers around the area between 4-6, never touching an area above 4, so if we're considering an amalgam of tier 4 and lower classes, including the truenamer makes sense.

You could say the same of Sorcerers. Poorly made...and they can be Tier 5 or 6. But you consider the potential power so they are Tier 2.

I suppose we could say the unoptimized Truenamer is in, but then we're in a fuzzy mess of what precisely that means.

[eggynack]

You could say the same of Sorcerers. Poorly made...and they can be Tier 5 or 6. But you consider the potential power so they are Tier 2.
Not exactly the same thing. The problem with truenamers is that the degree of optimization required for the truenamer to hit their checks is greater than the degree of optimization assumed by the tier system. A secondary problem is the fact that the book is poorly edited, which makes power level evaluation complicated in places.


I suppose we could say the unoptimized Truenamer is in, but then we're in a fuzzy mess of what precisely that means.
An optimized truenamer should also be in. An optimized truenamer is no more powerful than a warlock. If you edited out all of the clear errors, and removed truespeak DC's entirely (or maybe set a max uses per utterance per day), then tier 4 is where they'd end up. There's no sorcerer here, underlying the mess, nor is there even a bard. It's just an ordinary tier 4, hanging out with the warlock in the "mediocre and underleveled at will abilities" category.

[SowZ]

Not exactly the same thing. The problem with truenamers is that the degree of optimization required for the truenamer to hit their checks is greater than the degree of optimization assumed by the tier system. A secondary problem is the fact that the book is poorly edited, which makes power level evaluation complicated in places.


An optimized truenamer should also be in. An optimized truenamer is no more powerful than a warlock. If you edited out all of the clear errors, and removed truespeak DC's entirely (or maybe set a max uses per utterance per day), then tier 4 is where they'd end up. There's no sorcerer here, underlying the mess, nor is there even a bard. It's just an ordinary tier 4, hanging out with the warlock in the "mediocre and underleveled at will abilities" category.

The capstone is incredible, though.

[eggynack]

The capstone is incredible, though.
True, but that's not a tier changing effect. Notably, our uber-gestalt was actually getting gate three levels earlier, because it shows up on the healer list at 17th level. They don't get it in a way that's as powerful, but they don't exactly need to.

[Togo]

Just to complicate the matter still further, what about prestige classes? P-classes are far better for t4s and t3s than they are for tier1s, which rely on continung full spellcasting.

That said, in an actual game I'd happily play a full T4 or T3 gestalt over a Tier 1, and have little to fear in terms of being left behind.


Edit: As for the gamebreaking nature of Glibness, remember that any lie that is told that can easily be reverified as true is only believed until the reverification happens. The example comic takes a number of liberties for the sake of humor. You generally cannot lie to people that they are different species, and the "you don't hear or see us" lie only works until they see or hear you again, which if you remain in their line of sight is, well, immediately. Glibness is a great spell, but by RAW it is not invisibility to anyone who speaks the same language as you and can't roll a good sense motive check.

Sure, but by RAW ice assassin is a spell with sharply limited usefulness, scrying can be reliably detected by a small group of first-level NPCs, and contact other plane's information is limited by the knowledge of the power you're trying to contact. People tend to interpret these spells with a fair degree of flexibility, so it's only fair to do the same with glibness. If you don't to allow such flexibility, then T4/T3 and T1 get closer together, not further apart.

[eggynack]

I don't think prestige classes are really worth considering. How would they even work? Do you have to remove the entire gestalt every time you want a prestige class? Can you replace every class in the gestalt with its own individual prestige class? Can you just replace one at a time? It all makes sense when you're working with a straight gestalt, but when you talk about things on this scale, I just don't see it. Also, prestige classes aren't really a tier related function, and double-also, casters get pretty ridiculous ones. Even if you can somehow manage a boost to tier 1 with the tier 4 gestalt, the tier 1 would still reign supreme, cause they get to become a super crazy tier 1. Incantarix is sitting right there.

[Togo]

Sure, but so is wildshape ranger -> master of many forms. Which solves your MAD problem right there. Or divine crusader getting 9th level spells earlier than a straight wizard does.

Isn't the Tier system is supposed to be 6-16 in any case?

[eggynack]

Sure, but so is wildshape ranger -> master of many forms. Which solves your MAD problem right there. Or divine crusader getting 9th level spells earlier than a straight wizard does.

Isn't the Tier system is supposed to be 6-16 in any case?
This stuff doesn't seem to address most of my problems with prestige classes. First, as I mentioned, prestige classes aren't directly related to a class' tier. This means that we're no longer necessarily comparing tier 1's and tier 4's, but rather tier 1's and tier whatever's. Wild shape ranger isn't even a tier 4 class, and divine crusader is significantly less powerful than a wizard, given the crazy limited list, and it's insanely less powerful than a wizard running a PrC. I also don't see how the level range means anything. You can enter as early as 6th level, and you hit the crazy 3rd level ability at level 9. The same goes for planar shepherd.

[Helcack]

I think the problem is that you can't allow ACF's(or if you do, you have to make sure they aren't too good) because those bump tiers as is shown through Erudite vs Erudite STP. The versatility given to you from something as simple as the invisible fist variant of monk(immediate action invisibility with cooldown) is a step up from a normal monks capabilities. You can't allow Prestige Classes either because then the t4 is the same as the t1 class(both taking ur-priest or the templar one). In addition something like the Vecna-Blooded template(can't be scryed, auto-know where scryer is and who they are) would level the playing field to the point that both if played well would be doing nothing(and by played well I mean they would be severely afraid of everything and alone and most likely depressed.) That said, with ACF's I believe that the tier 4 uber-gestalt would be as able to deal with problems as well as a tier 1 class between levels 6 and 15, and better if on an endurance run. Without them, I don't believe that it would have the versatility needed.

[Drachasor]

Sure, but so is wildshape ranger -> master of many forms. Which solves your MAD problem right there. Or divine crusader getting 9th level spells earlier than a straight wizard does.

Isn't the Tier system is supposed to be 6-16 in any case?

Wildshape Ranger is T3.

[OldTrees1]

Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by having game breaking abilities in addition to abilities that can solve entire encounters. This is a qualitative difference from the lower tiers. As such, a gestalt of lower tiers will never achieve this tier level.

[Talya]

Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by having game breaking abilities in addition to abilities that can solve entire encounters. This is a qualitative difference from the lower tiers. As such, a gestalt of lower tiers will never achieve this tier level.

(1) "Game breaking abilities" don't come into play through the levels that the tier system rates. For instance, there are no "ninth level spells" in the tier system, it rates levels 6-15.

(2) People have blinders on about this. If a gestalt of tier 3 and lower can get most of the "game breaking abilities" - and in fact, have more spells known (or equivalents) and available to cast on a moment's notice than any wizard ever played has acquired, then they should be considered tier 0.5, since they can do all the same tricks even without preparation. With Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage (w/Eclectic Learning), Bard, Binder, Totemist, Incarnate, Soulborn, Shadowcaster, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Paladin and Ranger gestalted into one class, I maintain you greatly surpass the power of a sorcerer, and outstrip the versatility of anything ever built. Your main problem would be having enough knowledge of all your problem-solving and even game-breaking abilities to remember you have them when it comes time to use them.

[Drachasor]

(1) "Game breaking abilities" don't come into play through the levels that the tier system rates. For instance, there are no "ninth level spells" in the tier system, it rates levels 6-15.

(2) People have blinders on about this. If a gestalt of tier 3 and lower can get most of the "game breaking abilities" - and in fact, have more spells known (or equivalents) and available to cast on a moment's notice than any wizard ever played has acquired, then they should be considered tier 0.5, since they can do all the same tricks even without preparation. With Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage (w/Eclectic Learning), Bard, Binder, Totemist, Incarnate, Soulborn, Shadowcaster, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Paladin and Ranger gestalted into one class, I maintain you greatly surpass the power of a sorcerer, and outstrip the versatility of anything ever built. Your main problem would be having enough knowledge of all your problem-solving and even game-breaking abilities to remember you have them when it comes time to use them.

1) There are plenty of "game breaking" abilities even at lower levels. Explosive Runes, Polymorph, Magic Jar, Teleport (and yes, even the level 5 one is VERY good despite your personal dislike of it), Scrying, and a bunch of other stuff.

2) Funny thing is, remove the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer and I don't think it goes over Tier 3 even if it is better than other Tier 3s. I've often felt they might be better categorized as low Tier 2s.

Warmage with Eclectic Learning is a tricky bird. Definitely isn't Tier 4 anymore if you choose the right spells. (Similarly, if the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler are allowed Eclectic Learning they most definitely aren't Tier 3 anymore).

Warmage without Eclectic Learning + Other Tier 4s definitely don't go beyond Tier 3. But it is a very good Tier 3.

[Talya]

Don't forget, Binder is nearly tier 2 on its own, as well. (In fact, to include it here, you'd have to leave out the "Online Vestiges" because JaronK stuck it in two places depending whether the Online Vestiges were available.)

If you really want polymorph (5th level), factotum gets it for you.

Edit: I keep dealing with the tier 3 and lower gestalt I talked about earlier in response to Eggnack. The OP's tier 4 and lower gestalt might be a very high tier 3. I'm still not sure whether it hits tier 2. The placement of Favored Soul in Tier 2 makes me think it might...the favored soul never really EVER has the option of telling the universe to sit down and shut up. A warlock//DFA//healer//warmage//hexblade//spellthief//paladin//ranger//soulborn//rogue//scout//barbarian very well might.

[eggynack]

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like the tier 3 uber-gestalt does get a great deal of these things, but they get a good chunk of them later than the tier 1's do. I mean, if you think about it, factotums pull off of the frigging wizard list. Just straight across, all wizard spells that are 7th level or lower are freely available to this character. Thus, this fundamentally cannot be a question of whether the effects are there, because they so clearly are. Instead, it must be a question of how the character is getting the effects, and when they're getting them. It's highly possible that the gestalt is getting these effects with sufficient speed to justify lowish tier one, though they may manage moderate tier one, or possibly highish tier two, depending on how well they can keep up. The basic effects are certainly there though. I don't think there's much arguing that point.

[Talya]

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like the tier 3 uber-gestalt does get a great deal of these things, but they get a good chunk of them later than the tier 1's do. I mean, if you think about it, factotums pull off of the frigging wizard list. Just straight across, all wizard spells that are 7th level or lower are freely available to this character. Thus, this fundamentally cannot be a question of whether the effects are there, because they so clearly are. Instead, it must be a question of how the character is getting the effects, and when they're getting them. It's highly possible that the gestalt is getting these effects with sufficient speed to justify lowish tier one, though they may manage moderate tier one, or possibly highish tier two, depending on how well they can keep up. The basic effects are certainly there though. I don't think there's much arguing that point.

It's kinda telling how powerful Tier 1 can be that we can have this debate about an ubergestalt of way over 90% of the classes in the game, and whether they equal the power and versatility of the top 5% individually.

[eggynack]

True enough. I think that's going to have to be the new way I present the game's imbalance to folks new to that side of things. "No, monks are not more powerful than wizards. Yes, that is some very nice optimization you've got going on there, but you still have yet to reach wizard levels. Let's say that you took a monk, combined them with a fighter, combined that with a paladin, and continued with this list of classes here (points to massive list of classes), then you might equal one wizard. Maybe not though. We're working on it."

[schoklat]

One successful Planar Binding gives you 3x CL Wishes, straight from the rule text, no cheese or anything. If that's not enough for you to break the game, IDK how to help you.
And I'm certain that this is not the earliest cheese-free way to Cosmic Power for a T1/2.

[Drachasor]

One successful Planar Binding gives you 3x CL Wishes, straight from the rule text, no cheese or anything. If that's not enough for you to break the game, IDK how to help you.
And I'm certain that this is not the earliest cheese-free way to Cosmic Power for a T1/2.

Except Planar Binding has an explicit "the DM can decide it's an unreasonable command" clause which means auto-failure. It's still a powerful spell, but people tend to ignore the "DM arbitrates however he wants" clauses in some spells or forget the cost in XP or money.

And who's really going to argue that getting a wishing for a paltry sum is a reasonable demand?

[schoklat]

Wish is an SLA for Efreet. Their description explicitly states it is granted to mortals. How much more "win from rules" can you get?!

[Snowbluff]

Not to mention granting wishes costs them nothing.

[Drachasor]

Wish is an SLA for Efreet. Their description explicitly states it is granted to mortals. How much more "win from rules" can you get?!

You still have to bargain for it and a fair price for a wish (well, depending on the wish, I suppose) is going to be expensive. Don't offer a reasonable price and the DM is explicitly advised to say "no" and it doesn't matter what you roll.

A wish might cost the Efreeti nothing, but that doesn't mean its market value is nothing. Quite the opposite. This just means the Efreeti makes a killing on the margin.

Edit: I mean, sure, the DM could allow it for free. But a straightforward application of how this stuff works would indicate it shouldn't be remotely free.

[Gnaeus]

Tiers 1 and 2 are defined by having game breaking abilities in addition to abilities that can solve entire encounters. This is a qualitative difference from the lower tiers. As such, a gestalt of lower tiers will never achieve this tier level.

But that wasn't the question.

OP didn't ask "Is a gestalt of all tier 4s a tier 1?" He asked "Which is better, a tier 1 or a gestalt of all tier 4 and below". It does depend a bit on optimization fu, but in general, the T4 gestalt is going to be better. No, it won't be Tier 1. It is less capable of breaking the game, and it cannot redefine its abilities on a daily basis. But it has a lot more relevant abilities, many of them at will, and it is better at most of what you want an adventurer to do.

Chassis: T4 Gestalt has: d12 HP. All good saves (+charisma to saves). Evasion and Mettle. Good bab. All martial and armor proficiencies. 8 skill points per level, with pretty much everything on its class list, with auras to push that up by an absurd degree, which includes basically an I win button on social encounters. As a barbarian with multiple sources of bonus feats (and sneak attack/skirmish), it can curbstomp anything that it can charge or melee. As a warmage, it can effectively blast anything it can't charge or melee better than anything short of a dedicated blaster. It can heal better than anything short of a dedicated healing cleric (healer + auras). Warlock gives it flight at will before a tier 1. Adept gives it polymorph. And it has all of this available all the time.

Tier 1s have a slight edge in high level, high optimization games (particularly around that 15 level mark), and they have a slight edge if they know exactly what they are going to be facing on a specific day. Walking through a dungeon, the all T4 is going to be better most of the time.

[eggynack]

You still have to bargain for it and a fair price for a wish (well, depending on the wish, I suppose) is going to be expensive. Don't offer a reasonable price and the DM is explicitly advised to say "no" and it doesn't matter what you roll.
That's not how the spell works at all. If the command itself is reasonable, which is a thing completely unrelated to the price, then it's a command that the efreet has a chance of agreeing to. That unreasonable command line is the only rules caused fiat control that the DM has access to. As long as you can request something, getting the efreet to agree to it is pretty much trivial.

Edit: @Gnaeus: I rather disagree. The stuff you mentioned covers only a small portion of the stuff that a tier one is capable of. Sure, you can combat efficiently, but there's just such a wide swath of ridiculously powerful stuff, of crazy versatility, available at all levels. Polymorph, which is one of the few actually versatile things you listed, barely even qualifies as relevant by the time you get it.

[Snowbluff]

Versatile Spellcaster + Magical Training is how I would build it.

Not to mention if I didn't have a spell for something, I could build it at the 15 bracket.

[Drachasor]

That's not how the spell works at all. If the command itself is reasonable, which is a thing completely unrelated to the price, then it's a command that the efreet has a chance of agreeing to. That unreasonable command line is the only rules caused fiat control that the DM has access to. As long as you can request something, getting the efreet to agree to it is pretty much trivial.


If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

Considering it is part of the bargaining, I don't see how you can eliminate the price from the reasonableness of the command. That seems to be an inherent part of it. If I take my car to a auto shop to get fixed, asking them to do it for free is unreasonable. Paying a fair price is not. The same work is being requested either way though.

[eggynack]

Considering it is part of the bargaining, I don't see how you can eliminate the price from the reasonableness of the command. That seems to be an inherent part of it. If I take my car to a auto shop to get fixed, asking them to do it for free is unreasonable. Paying a fair price is not. The same work is being requested either way though.
Payment is a component of the bargaining, rather than a component of the command. If you pay nothing, that's factored into the charisma check, and the caster doesn't need anything factored into the charisma check to win.

[Drachasor]

Payment is a component of the bargaining, rather than a component of the command. If you pay nothing, that's factored into the charisma check, and the caster doesn't need anything factored into the charisma check to win.

I'm not seeing where the spell makes a distinction like that. In fact, it seems rather explicit that if the command/request/whatever is unreasonable, then there's no agreement regardless of what a check would result in.

Compel a service/request, demand, etc, etc. The spell seems to have many different ways to say the same thing. It doesn't seem to draw a distinction between them.

The check is about whether the creature agrees. If the deal is unreasonable, then it never agrees (no check needed). I don't see how the spell is unclear on this or implies anything else. Unless perhaps you try to draw a distinction between compelling a service and all the other ways of saying the same thing it uses.

[Heliomance]

I'm not seeing where the spell makes a distinction like that. In fact, it seems rather explicit that if the command/request/whatever is unreasonable, then there's no agreement regardless of what a check would result in.

Compel a service/request, demand, etc, etc. The spell seems to have many different ways to say the same thing. It doesn't seem to draw a distinction between them.

The check is about whether the creature agrees. If the deal is unreasonable, then it never agrees (no check needed). I don't see how the spell is unclear on this or implies anything else. Unless perhaps you try to draw a distinction between compelling a service and all the other ways of saying the same thing it uses.

There's always "give me a wish if you want me to stop performing the Chines water drop torture on you with holy water".

[Frozen_Feet]

"All below Tier 4" gestalt is easily very high Tier 3, quite likely Tier 2. Between Fighter and Barbarian, it has all the feats it can want for optimizing for close combat; Ninja and Rogue give it all bonus damage it would want; Warmage allows ranged and area attacks; monk and soulknife supply it with free weapons; monk, rogue and paladin give it all mundane defenses it would want; and it has free movement speed from monk and barbarian. Basically, anything you would want covered for combat is automatically there.

This leaves us Adept's spell list, Ranger's spell list, Paladin's spell list, invocations and Healer's spell list to optimize for utility and buffs. Yes, not the best spell lists in the game, but this guy still ends up with a huge number of available abilities to browse through for any given situation. He also gets Gate at 17, the same as all other full casters. I have a hard time seeing how this guy's worse than the sorcerer at that point, or even earlier - he gets much more spells to cast and known at every level. I'm not convinced lacking access to few specific spells would be enough to drop this gestalt by a tier. Nevermind that he's vastly superior to the sorcerer in every other respect (hugely better hitpoints, saves, BAB, feats, skillpoints, class skills...).

As for comparing this gestalt to Druid - the only thing the Druid has that this guy doesn't is wildshape. Animal companion? This gestalt is ending up with three of four different companions from its class features! (Familiar, Paladin's mount, Ranger's animal companion, Healer's companion...) He's walking around with a small party made out of class features at any given moment.

He would also have easy time optimizing for mundande social skills and stealth.

"All tier 3s and below" is trivially equal to Tier 1. When you put Beguiler's, Dread Necromancer's, Warmage's, Healer's, Ranger's, Paladin's, Bard's and Adept's spell lists together, you end up with something like 3/5 of the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list at your beck and call, plus a good portion of the Cleric's and Druid's. Then you slap Factotum's ability to use all skills and break the action economy on top of that... plus everything from Tome of Battle... plus psionic powers, which you can optimize via Expanded Knowledge to serve for utility. This guy can afford to run several distinct ability sets for various different situations at the same time. Plus he has so many companion creatures it ceases to be funny. Count yourself: familiar, mount, animal companion, unicorn, psicrystal, undead creatures... I'm fairly sure that allows for enough action economy abuse to rival celerity+time stop combo.

[aleucard]

To be completely honest, between Warlock (particularly Clawlock), full BAB, the 3+ different ways you get sneak attack (which, since they're different, they stack), and being able to use multiple means from multiple directions to get sneak attacks almost any time you want, damage should be a non-issue against anything you could name if you can get to melee range. This gets even more screwy once things like ToB and having several different primary and secondary casters' worth of spells to buff yourself with if you include T3. You can literally blow an entire spell slot reserve and not lose anything you would need in the fight. Sure, your version of 'going nova' may be different, but nothing I can think of would be able to keep up without going to very Punny territory. The fact that you'd still have several classes' worth of things to do even after you drain all your casting, including the damage thing I mentioned above, is gravy.

[schoklat]

You still have to bargain for it and a fair price for a wish (well, depending on the wish, I suppose) is going to be expensive. Don't offer a reasonable price and the DM is explicitly advised to say "no" and it doesn't matter what you roll.

A wish might cost the Efreeti nothing, but that doesn't mean its market value is nothing. Quite the opposite. This just means the Efreeti makes a killing on the margin.

Edit: I mean, sure, the DM could allow it for free. But a straightforward application of how this stuff works would indicate it shouldn't be remotely free.

I don't pay a price, I just check as at +0. Rigging the check isn't that hard really...
But hey, want to be really sure? Don't even attempt a Chance check, instead just bombard it with Charm Monster till you succeed.


But that wasn't the question.

OP didn't ask "Is a gestalt of all tier 4s a tier 1?" He asked "Which is better, a tier 1 or a gestalt of all tier 4 and below". *snip*

You really have no clue what T1/2s can do, right?!
Aside from the fact that they get very powerful ways to dictate combat flow, a really worthy one wields power in such a way that s/he avoids the need for any combat (unless maybe when they rig it completely against you.)

[Kristinn]

Just chiming in to opine that the all-Tier 3 and lower gestalt would equal a well-built Tier 1. Lets list what it has:

Passive abilities
----------------------------
Full BAB, d12 Hit Die, 8 skill points/lvl
Various precision damage (Sneak Attack, Skirmish, etc.)
Bonus Fighter feats
Medium size Wild Shaping
Charisma to saves

Active abilities
----------------------
Warlock invocations
A lot of ToB stances and strikes
Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage and Healer spellcasting

The Full BAB, precision damage, Fighter bonus feats and ToB abilities would make the character a very capable melee combatant, even closing in on a Druid or DMM Cleric. The Warlock at-will invocations would add a lot utility, such as fairly low level permanent flight.

The real power will come from the casting. Beguiler and Dread Necromancer casting covers most good illusions, enchantments and necromancy spells. With Bard you can pick up a few pearls from the Transmutation and Conjuration schools, especially the low level ones. Warmage gives you plenty of blasting, and a surprising amount of utility spells, such as Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles and a few Fog spells. By having so many sources of spontaneous casting, you can have an adequate number of good spells known.

The real problem will be when the Tier 1 casters get access to the really good lvl. 7 and 8 spells (never mind the lvl. 9 spells, then its game over for the all-Tier 3 gestalt).

So to summarize, at lvl. 5 and 10 the versatile casting, and good melee fighting power of the all-Tier 3 and lower gestalt is stronger that a Tier 1 caster. At 15 it can go either way, with smart spell selection, and favourable circumstances the all-Tier 3 can be stronger. But lvl. 8 spells are powerful.

At lvl. 20 its a no-contest. Without Gate, Shapeshange and Time Stop, you just can't compete.


As for a Tier 4 and lower gestalt, without Bard, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer casting its a no-contest again, except at lvl. 5.

[eggynack]

I'm not seeing where the spell makes a distinction like that. In fact, it seems rather explicit that if the command/request/whatever is unreasonable, then there's no agreement regardless of what a check would result in.

Compel a service/request, demand, etc, etc. The spell seems to have many different ways to say the same thing. It doesn't seem to draw a distinction between them.

The check is about whether the creature agrees. If the deal is unreasonable, then it never agrees (no check needed). I don't see how the spell is unclear on this or implies anything else. Unless perhaps you try to draw a distinction between compelling a service and all the other ways of saying the same thing it uses.
I think the problem I'm having is that I don't see how this is unreasonable, even with no cost. Casting wish doesn't cost the efreet anything, so it's perfectly reasonable to just do that off of a successful charisma check.


"All below Tier 4" gestalt is easily very high Tier 3, quite likely Tier 2. Between Fighter and Barbarian, it has all the feats it can want for optimizing for close combat; Ninja and Rogue give it all bonus damage it would want; Warmage allows ranged and area attacks; monk and soulknife supply it with free weapons; monk, rogue and paladin give it all mundane defenses it would want; and it has free movement speed from monk and barbarian. Basically, anything you would want covered for combat is automatically there.
None of this stuff is really all that good at all. I mean, you can damage stuff, and you can damage stuff from far away, and you have crappy defensive abilities. It's all a big resounding meh. Certainly nowhere near moving out of tier three. All that stuff combined is still likely worse than a bard.


This leaves us Adept's spell list, Ranger's spell list, Paladin's spell list, invocations and Healer's spell list to optimize for utility and buffs. Yes, not the best spell lists in the game, but this guy still ends up with a huge number of available abilities to browse through for any given situation. He also gets Gate at 17, the same as all other full casters. I have a hard time seeing how this guy's worse than the sorcerer at that point, or even earlier - he gets much more spells to cast and known at every level. I'm not convinced lacking access to few specific spells would be enough to drop this gestalt by a tier. Nevermind that he's vastly superior to the sorcerer in every other respect (hugely better hitpoints, saves, BAB, feats, skillpoints, class skills...).

What? No, that's not really how it works. Your spell advancement on everything but the healer is ridiculously slow, and healer spells are terrible. You're not missing one or two specific spells. You're missing a whole massive pile of spells, from just about every category. After healer and warmage, whose casting is demonstrably pretty low tier, all of your casting cuts of at 4th or 5th level spells. Also, it cuts off at 4th or 5th level spells pretty late in the game. Honestly, here too the list is likely worse than the bard's list.


As for comparing this gestalt to Druid - the only thing the Druid has that this guy doesn't is wildshape. Animal companion? This gestalt is ending up with three of four different companions from its class features! (Familiar, Paladin's mount, Ranger's animal companion, Healer's companion...) He's walking around with a small party made out of class features at any given moment.
Have you read the druid list? It's really really good. Have you read the paladin, ranger, or healer's list? They're really really bad. It's all list all the time. If you have the list, you have the tier. Without the list, the druid is just a tier 3 character, though they could hit tier 2 with just spontaneous conversion of slots into SNA's. With the list, you get a tier 1. I don't think you truly comprehend how insanely good some of these spells are.

[EugeneVoid]

Without contributing much to this discussion.

The T4 gestalt is at the very least T3, and possibly T2. I find it unlikely to push itself up to to tier 1.

The thing with this gestalt, however, is that it will be very, Very easy to play, but also very easy to screw up.

It'll likely have ridiculous MAD or not be able to utilize many of its class features. High floor, Medium-High Ceiling.

[Talya]

What? No, that's not really how it works. Your spell advancement on everything but the healer is ridiculously slow, and healer spells are terrible. You're not missing one or two specific spells. You're missing a whole massive pile of spells, from just about every category. After healer and warmage, whose casting is demonstrably pretty low tier, all of your casting cuts of at 4th or 5th level spells. Also, it cuts off at 4th or 5th level spells pretty late in the game. Honestly, here too the list is likely worse than the bard's list.

You could probably do some pretty nice things with Versatile Spellcaster, by RAW. (And we'll go with strict RAW, because the entire concept of the ubergestalt is absurd.) A strict reading of Versatile Spellcaster would allow this gestalt to sacrifice spell slots from healer to cast any spell she knows -- even from another class. Since divine casters know their entire list, this means you're casting level 4 ranger, paladin, and warmage spells by Level 5.



Have you read the druid list? It's really really good. Have you read the paladin, ranger, or healer's list? They're really really bad. It's all list all the time. If you have the list, you have the tier. Without the list, the druid is just a tier 3 character, though they could hit tier 2 with just spontaneous conversion of slots into SNA's. With the list, you get a tier 1. I don't think you truly comprehend how insanely good some of these spells are.

Yeah, people are constantly underestimating that list. I still maintain it's much better than the cleric list. (Obviously, we're not counting whichever domain you have, which can be spectacular, or terrible.)

Edit: That reminds me, we forgot the benefit of Arcane Disciple on the Warmage...picking the right domain there is huge.

[Gnaeus]

You really have no clue what T1/2s can do, right?!
Aside from the fact that they get very powerful ways to dictate combat flow, a really worthy one wields power in such a way that s/he avoids the need for any combat (unless maybe when they rig it completely against you.)

1. You know what happens in most games? A lot of combat. Maybe interspersed with some traps. The all T4 is better than the T1 at both trapfinding and at combat at all but the highest optimization levels. Ergo, better at D&D.

2. The all T4 gestalt can do that too. You are familiar with Diplomacy, which is maybe the most abusable skill in D&D. The all T4 gestalt owns it. A diplomancer bard could compete, but most T1s would be far inferior.


The thing with this gestalt, however, is that it will be very, Very easy to play, but also very easy to screw up..

Not nearly as easy to screw up as a T1. All you need to have an ineffectual T1 is to pick bad spells for the day. The all T4 gestalt is excellent in any party role, all the time, by default. It simply isn't able to find itself in a position where it picked the wrong elemental damage type, or picked summoning focus when blasting or hiding would have been better.



Edit: @Gnaeus: I rather disagree. The stuff you mentioned covers only a small portion of the stuff that a tier one is capable of. Sure, you can combat efficiently, but there's just such a wide swath of ridiculously powerful stuff, of crazy versatility, available at all levels. Polymorph, which is one of the few actually versatile things you listed, barely even qualifies as relevant by the time you get it.

But it is still MORE than a single T1 is likely to be capable of on any given day. A functioning T0, by which I mean a T1 that actually has complete at will access to its entire spell list at any moment in time, like a rainbow warsnake, is going to be better. There are corner cases that can't be dealt with by sneaking, diplomacy, flight, melee or ranged combat (all of which the T4 gestalt does excellently) that a T1 can do that it can't. You can pick spell lists that a T1 might have that exploit those corner cases. But I don't think you can pick a single spell list at level 10 that can outdo the T4G at the stuff that is actually important in a game. Exploring, fighting, healing, and repeating. At level 5 it isn't even funny.

[schoklat]

1. You know what happens in most games? A lot of combat. Maybe interspersed with some traps. The all T4 is better than the T1 at both trapfinding and at combat at all but the highest optimization levels. Ergo, better at D&D.

Trying to hammer every problem when you have a belt full of super tools will of course provide inferior results.


2. The all T4 gestalt can do that too. You are familiar with Diplomacy, which is maybe the most abusable skill in D&D. The all T4 gestalt owns it. A diplomancer bard could compete, but most T1s would be far inferior.

L1: Charm Person

[Gnaeus]

Trying to hammer every problem when you have a belt full of super tools will of course provide inferior results.

And since your T1 has less tools, you will, therefore, get worse results, yes. The T1 is the one that has to make 10-20 spells cover every concievable situation. Attack, defense, sneaking, trapfinding, diplomacy, etc.



L1: Charm Person

Hyu iz funny guy. If you meet a target not immune to mind affecting, with a bad will save, you can make him "Friendly" for a few minutes. With a casual conversation and a skill check that is obscene beyond belief, I can turn him all the way to "Helpful". I can do it to undead, people immune to mind affecting, and they won't suddenly change their minds and realize that they have been messed with a quarter hour later. You can't dispel magic a diplomacy check.

Oh, I forgot an important one. Between Warlock, and its various spell lists, the T4G is actually likely to be as good at or better than most T1s at creating and using magic items.



What? No, that's not really how it works. Your spell advancement on everything but the healer is ridiculously slow, and healer spells are terrible. You're not missing one or two specific spells. You're missing a whole massive pile of spells, from just about every category. After healer and warmage, whose casting is demonstrably pretty low tier, all of your casting cuts of at 4th or 5th level spells. Also, it cuts off at 4th or 5th level spells pretty late in the game. Honestly, here too the list is likely worse than the bard's list..

But healer and warmage aren't low tier because their spells are bad. They are low tier because they are not versatile. The rest of the package covers that. Blasting is handy, and Warmages do it well. Healing (especially via Heal, + effect removal like break enchantment) is handy, and healers do it well. Healer/Warmage/hexblades actually do it better than healers or warmages, because warmages get a pile of sudden metamagic feats, and hexblades also get a number of caster type bonus feats. Melee is handy, and T4 gestalt does it well. Trapfinding is handy, and T4 gestalt does it well. Diplomancy and intimidate abuse are both very strong for T4 gestalt. A warlock, with invocations chosen solely for utility and skill abuse, is pretty handy. Ninja is a dog with flees, but its at will etherealness is a +, and Ghost mind makes it very resistant to scrying. Marshal and Dragon Shaman provide some very solid party buffing. Hexblade gives a familiar, which has full BAB, good HP, good saves, and shares in a ludicrous number of skill ranks, including UMD. Healer also gives a fracking Couatl, which aside from combined sorcerer/cleric casting can Plane Shift at will, resolving any plausible travel issues. Aside from polymorph, which I do not agree comes too late to be useful (especially in combo with Superfamiliar), Adept gives Animate Dead (only one level behind wizard) and Commune.

A mid level cleric, for example, entering a dungeon that he knows will be filled with undead, magical traps and illusions, COULD prepare True Seeing, Break Enchantment, Death Ward, Stone to Flesh, and Freedom of movement, and Restoration. But he probably won't, because he not only has to have all that covered, he has to do his regular combat schtick too, and that is a big chunk of his level 3, 4 and 5 spells. T4G will have those on his list every day from healer, without sacrificing anything. With multiple pets, better defenses, the ability to operate freely in an AMZ, better combat ability, and much much more.

[eggynack]

But it is still MORE than a single T1 is likely to be capable of on any given day. A functioning T0, by which I mean a T1 that actually has complete at will access to its entire spell list at any moment in time, like a rainbow warsnake, is going to be better. There are corner cases that can't be dealt with by sneaking, diplomacy, flight, melee or ranged combat (all of which the T4 gestalt does excellently) that a T1 can do that it can't. You can pick spell lists that a T1 might have that exploit those corner cases. But I don't think you can pick a single spell list at level 10 that can outdo the T4G at the stuff that is actually important in a game. Exploring, fighting, healing, and repeating. At level 5 it isn't even funny.
How's about control winds? Seems kinda outside your gestalt's wheelhouse. Pop on about two caster levels, maybe with karma beads, go in with a base wind speed of strong, perhaps with favorable winds, and you're destroying entire armies and towns with a massive tornado that lasts for hours. Maybe go with blizzard instead, if that's more up your alley. These are reasonably powered armies too, rather than just a level one goblin collective. In a single level, the druid upgrades to spontaneously available earthquakes, along with incidental instances of several other high powered spells, with no increased spell cost. I don't think the gestalt even comes close to any of those effects.

[Lans]

To anyone saying Truenamer: remember that the Truenamer requires a large investment in items/feats, and a high INT focus, to even be able to use its abilities. Creating a character with CHA focus and ignoring bonuses to Truenaming would likely just result in Truenamer abilites that can't even be used.


Marshal lets the gestalt use his charisma for truenaming abilities, and he only needs to be able to do it once, to summon a creature with shapechange, so he can turn into that gibbering mouther creature that auto succeeds and then spam his abilities.



Maybe, but this comparison isn't between a venomfire using fleshraker and the uber-gestalt. It's between a druid and the uber-gestalt.

Sorry, I meant to say that he compares well to the animal companion and the druid as fleshrakers using venom fire.




Druids get spells, and those spells provide a qualitative difference that is much stronger than what a melee guy is doing at level five. The part of the comparison where the animal companion is actually relevant is at levels one and two.There too we have a riding dog acting as an inferior melee combatant to the uber-gestalt, but that is once again not the actual comparison that is occurring.

The riding dog merely needs to be a strong body that the druid can hide behind, and that can act as a kill condition when the druid is shooting out BFC based inevitability. The riding dog also provides endurance, which is highly relevant when you're not getting all that many slots. Overall, the first level druid setup is one I'd consider superior to the uber-gestalt.
What BFC spells is he using that are shutting down the UG? At 1st level the uber gestalt can shoot 3 arrows dealing d10+6 and potentially kill the druid and his dog.
.

[eggynack]

What BFC spells is he using that are shutting down the UG? At 1st level the uber gestalt can shoot 3 arrows dealing d10+6 and potentially kill the druid and his dog.

That's not really how the comparison works. How the two classes fare in an arena challenge is irrelevant to overall power level and tiering. You need to see how they fare against situations and encounters.

[Lans]

How's about control winds? Seems kinda outside your gestalt's wheelhouse..

Truenamer gets this, Warmage might be able to pull it off with arcane disciple

[eggynack]

Truenamer gets this, Warmage might be able to pull it off with arcane disciple
Not really in the former case. We're talking about 10th level here, and master of the four winds comes online at 16th level. That's a lot of levels. In the latter case, perhaps, though at that point you're devoting actual character resources to the plan, while the druid can do other things with no investment. Such is the nature of druids. It also seems somewhat more difficult to consistently get the control winds to tornado levels.

[Gnaeus]

T4G Bonus Feats without any ACFs
L1 Fighter bonus Feat. Weapon focus (soulknife), Imp unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple (Monk), EWP Bastard Sword (samurai), Skill Focus (Diplomacy (Marshal), Track (Ranger)
L2 Skill Focus (Dragon Shaman), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Fighter Bonus, Ranger Combat StyleFeat, Skill Focus (Heal) (Healer), Mounted Combat (Knight)
L3 Incarnum Feat (Soulborn), Endurance (Ranger)
L4 Fighter Bonus Feat, Scout Bonus Feat
L5 Combat Casting (Hexblade), Iron Will (Knight)
L6 Speed of Thought (soulknife), Imp Trip (Monk), Fighter Bonus Feat, Ranger Combat Style
L7 Sudden Empower (Warmage), Incernum Feat (Soulborn)
L8 Skill Focus (Dragon Shaman), Fighter Bonus Feat, Improved Initiative (Samurai), Scout Bonus Feat
L9 GWF Mind Blade (Soul Knife)
L10 Sudden Enlarge (Warmage), Fighter Bonus Feat, Spell Penetration (Hexblade), Diehard (Knight),
L11 Ranger Combat Style, Incarnum Feat (Soulborn)
L12 Fighter Bonus Feat, Scout Bonus Feat
L13 Bonus Feat (Rogue)
L14 Fighter Bonus Feat
L15 Greater Spell Penetration (Hexblade), Sudden Widen (Warmage), Great Fortitude (Knight)
L16 Skill Focus (Dragon Shaman), Fighter Bonus Feat, Bonus Feat (Rogue), Scout Bonus Feat
L18 Fighter Bonus Feat
L19 Bonus Feat (Rogue)
L20 Sudden Maximize (Warmage), Fighter Bonus Feat, Scout Bonus Feat

Aside from demonstrating how good he is likely to be at combat, and skill use, and all the bonuses he gets to his spellcasting classes, and some Incarnum (and probably some ToB from Fighter feats), Please consider what a monster this guy will be after a dark chaos shuffle.


How's about control winds? Seems kinda outside your gestalt's wheelhouse.
Aside from the fact that as pointed out I can pretty easily pick it up from arcane disciple if I want, or scribe a scroll as a Warlock, I fail to see how control winds is remotely useful for the typical D&D adventure in a dungeon or ruins. I will grant that overland army destruction is probably an area where the T1 has an edge unless the T4G is specifically built for it. But it does not fall into the typical adventure paradigm of exploring, defeating, looting, healing and continuing through an ancient ruin or enemy lair or evil castle that most D&D published adventures and most games I have seen seem to include. Maybe your games require blowing away a lot of armies.

Edit: Added scout bonus feats.

[eggynack]

Aside from the fact that as pointed out I can pretty easily pick it up from arcane disciple if I want, or scribe a scroll as a Warlock, I fail to see how control winds is remotely useful for the typical D&D adventure in a dungeon or ruins. I will grant that overland army destruction is probably an area where the T1 has an edge unless the T4G is specifically built for it. But it does not fall into the typical adventure paradigm of exploring, defeating, looting, healing and continuing through an ancient ruin or enemy lair or evil castle that most D&D published adventures and most games I have seen seem to include. Maybe your games require blowing away a lot of armies.
I don't really see how you don't see the relevance in your dungeon paradigm. Have you read the entry for tornado, and viewed the potential impact against even a small group of powerful foes? It just kills folks. You can also get call avalanche in above ground scenarios, which is separately ridiculous.

Edit: As for methods of copying this effect, the one thing they all have in common is that they pretty much always consume long term resources. The druid just is this stuff, before feats and before items. Every time the druid does a new thing, like accessing weird movement types, vision modes, and BFC's, that's another thing that this gestalt has to struggle to accomplish.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, Come to think of it, I think this might be a character that actually might *want* a Belt of Magnificence instead of 3 +X items for its mental ability scores.

Another thing that comes to mind is that since you're getting things like Evasion from multiple sources you can freely take several ACFs that trade it away for things like spell reflection.

Probably something nifty that can emerge from the amount of ACF chaining that can be made, since you have multiple sets of some abilities to trade away.

If variant classes are on the table so long as they don't break into T3 or higher, that... complicates things some as well. What's the name of that Fighter variant that gets better than ranger-strength Animal Companion, again? I know there's third party variants, but I'm reasonably sure that there's also a dragon magazine variant that does it as well.

Feats like Sword of the Arcane Order open up level 1-4 wizard casting from two sets of spell slots on top of the other spell lists it gets access to, pulling double duty, amusingly enough. Combined with that Versatile Spellcaster trick, that I believe Talya mentioned, somewhere between 4th and 6th level, that comes online to be capable of casting any wizard spells of 1-4th level one has been able to get ahold of via spellbook access. So that's a bit niftier than I initially thought it might be.

And then Devoted Tracker > Dragon Steed is almost a no-brainer, though the resulting mount will be weaker than a super mount without access to a variant of ranger that gives better strength animal companion or use of the fighter variant class that gives full-strength druid animal companion. And if you do have that fighter variant with full-strength druid animal companion on the table, then that plus dragon steed gets a pet sorcerer on top of all of the innate spellcasting.

If you go along with that one interpretation that means bonus RHD increase a dragon's age category, I think you just get a pet T2 character, but in a way more novel than just using Leadership or Thrallherd. Even without it, it's a pretty nifty mount or flanker. Though it has the problem of not really kicking off till higher level and the class doesn't exactly hurt for being a beatstick before the combo yields a pet sorcerer. Would allow for focusing on the non-physical side without neglecting that role, I suppose.

And if you get access to abusive dark chaos shuffle stuff, the sheer number of Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency bonus feats alone add up, though that's not particularly relevant, just a bit of musing. XD It gets worse with all of the other bonus feats added in though.


It's important to remember that Tier 5 -> Tier 4 requires a jump in raw power. So does Tier 3 -> Tier 2. Other transitions are largely jumps in versatility. Generally speaking. Uber-gestalts largely get fuzzy, imho, when you have some classes that are just barely short of power jump needed for a higher Tier.

My recollection is that Tier 4 is an OR category, where it's either being really good at one schtick or passably OKish at several, with Tier 5 being at-best passably OKish at their main area of focus or failing to be passably OKish at several different things.

So between the number of passably-OKish things that one could do with multiple T5s put together, one should be able to readily get a T4, especially if there is any emergent synergy, and T3 isn't necessarily out of the realm of conceptual possibility, either.


The problem with stuff like this is it makes the Healer a bit like a T5 (most of the time), T2 (with gate and excess experience). Kind of undercuts its Tier classification if Gate can be freely used for summoning, which undercuts the "T4 and below".

Healer and Truenamer are both wonky like that, but the Tier System originally disregarded outlier abilities like that as I recall, especially given as they completely alter the class at near-epic levels in comparison with how the class played at all other levels.


Dread necro gets it, it doesn't get protection spells to make proper use of it though.

Of all the other classes possible, at least Divine Bard gets Magic Circle against X, and Paladins get Magic Circle against Evil and Chaos. ...So you could planar bind chaotic creatures, I suppose, if we're going by casting an [evil] spell is an evil act, or accept that it's gonna be a fallen paladin or Blackguard.

I think Healer has a similar issue with a code of conduct or something along those lines? Oy vey.


Break Enchantment.

Bard and Paladin both get access to Break Enchantment, eventually.


Plus he has so many companion creatures it ceases to be funny. Count yourself: familiar, mount, animal companion, unicorn, psicrystal, undead creatures... I'm fairly sure that allows for enough action economy abuse to rival celerity+time stop combo.

A Hound of Doom from the Hound of Doom spell from Hexblade, Hexblade's Dark Companion ACF... :smallbiggrin:

[Gnaeus]

Edit: As for methods of copying this effect, the one thing they all have in common is that they pretty much always consume long term resources. The druid just is this stuff, before feats and before items. Every time the druid does a new thing, like accessing weird movement types, vision modes, and BFC's, that's another thing that this gestalt has to struggle to accomplish.

1. That just isn't true. I have LOTS more spell lists than the druid. I can see invisibility as an adept, or a Lurk. Or as a Ninja for free. I can detect EVERYTHING, much better than a druid, (detect magic or evil at will for example). I have Communes from multiple sources. Scouts get blindsense 30. Spellthief gives Arcane Sight at will. I have a ton of sensory movement modes and BFCs for free, just from various classes. Not to mention combined bonuses to spot and listen from various classes and feats that in combination could only be described as absurd.

2. That would be problematic, if we had the same amount of long term resources. But the T4G has many many more. Druid has 8 feats. 8. At level 20. If Human. If T4G needs to devote his entire Divine Mind Power list to the Knowledge mantle for wierd divinations (many of which the druid can't match BTW) thats just fine. I don't need it. Need to drop a warlock invocation for Crawling Eye? Fine. I have lots more. But if I do, I can use it whenever I want. A 10th level druid has 21 spells, assuming 1 bonus spell of each level. A 10th level T4 G gets 23 Healer spells. 6 Adept spells. 2 Ranger Spells. 2 Paladin Spells. 2 spontaneous Spellthief Spells chosen from 7 sorcerer spells known. All the Warmage spells level 5 and below. and 6 at will warlock invocations. Every darn day. Also multiple pets, some of which have their own spell likes (How does druid 10 duplicate unicorn magic circle vs evil? 4th level spell slot. For 10 rounds. I get it all day). And lots of other class abilities that are at least worth 1 spell/day, such as Samurai Intimidation, Diplomancy, Ninja invisibility or get an improved familiar and steal it from them as a spellthief, laying on hands (paladin or Dragon shaman) DR. Free energy resistance from multiple sources (You will be memorizing resist energy, right?). Don't talk about sensory modes. The T4G can out utility the Druid with half its brain tied behind its back. If I need to set several feats on fire to add extra spells that I can use every day, I have the feats to burn. I showed that.



Bard and Paladin both get access to Break Enchantment, eventually.:
Healer.

[schoklat]

To the T4-fans:
How about you stop throwing around feat lists and all, and instead actually take the tier test. Level 5 for your convenience, a single character built to your choice. Solve all three scenarios at CR+2, aka challenging to a regular party.

[Ansem]

That answer doesn't seem to reflect either the truth, or the pretty heavy amount of debate going on right in front of your eyes. I think that most folks in this thread agree that the tier 1 class will be generally superior, so if no debate is occurring, it'd probably be because we've settled on that conclusion, rather than the one you've presented. In fact, I think the current debate is whether the tier 4 uber-gestalt can equal a tier 2 class, and I'm pretty doubtful about that as well. The gestalt would probably end up high tier 3, or maybe low tier 2 in my estimation.

The fact you're using tiers as an argumentation for classes in the first place is means the argumentation has no value. Now if anyone would actually PLAY a T1 and a T4> Gestalt in a game, they should come back to this thread with the knowledge they gained from that, instead of blindly holding on to amaturistic fanboyism. T1 and T2 classes seem good on 'paper' but I seen plenty of them die on a regular basis and outperformed by lower 'tier' classes.
Hence there is no debate possible since this is "hurr durr wizards OP" and I can vouch that besides maybe 2 other participants in this thread no one has ever tried it into actual play.

[eggynack]

1. That just isn't true. I have LOTS more spell lists than the druid. I can see invisibility as an adept, or a Lurk. Or as a Ninja for free. I can detect EVERYTHING, much better than a druid, (detect magic or evil at will for example). I have Communes from multiple sources. Scouts get blindsense 30. Spellthief gives Arcane Sight at will. I have a ton of sensory movement modes and BFCs for free, just from various classes. Not to mention combined bonuses to spot and listen from various classes and feats that in combination could only be described as absurd.
Druids can pick up basically all day 120 foot blindsight as early as level seven, with zero long term investment. As for movement modes and BFC's, you were pretty non-specific about exactly what you're doing for those things, so it's rather difficult to actually present a comparison. It's pretty clear cut for druids though. They get a massive amount of swim speeds, burrow speeds, flight speeds, climb speeds, and pretty much anything else you could possibly want. If you pick up exalted wild shape, which I believe to be a pretty optimal choice, I'm pretty doubtful that anything you do would even come close to free dimension door every round. As for BFC's, druids have crazy BFC's, obviously. What exactly are you pulling off there, and how does it compare to druid stuff. Just saying "free stuff" doesn't mean that much.


2. That would be problematic, if we had the same amount of long term resources. But the T4G has many many more. Druid has 8 feats. 8. At level 20. If Human. If T4G needs to devote his entire Divine Mind Power list to the Knowledge mantle for wierd divinations (many of which the druid can't match BTW) thats just fine. I don't need it. Need to drop a warlock invocation for Crawling Eye? Fine. I have lots more. But if I do, I can use it whenever I want. A 10th level druid has 21 spells, assuming 1 bonus spell of each level. A 10th level T4 G gets 23 Healer spells. 6 Adept spells. 2 Ranger Spells. 2 Paladin Spells. 2 spontaneous Spellthief Spells chosen from 7 sorcerer spells known. All the Warmage spells level 5 and below. and 6 at will warlock invocations. Every darn day. Also multiple pets, some of which have their own spell likes (How does druid 10 duplicate unicorn magic circle vs evil? 4th level spell slot. For 10 rounds. I get it all day). And lots of other class abilities that are at least worth 1 spell/day, such as Samurai Intimidation, Diplomancy, Ninja invisibility or get an improved familiar and steal it from them as a spellthief, laying on hands (paladin or Dragon shaman) DR. Free energy resistance from multiple sources (You will be memorizing resist energy, right?). Don't talk about sensory modes. The T4G can out utility the Druid with half its brain tied behind its back. If I need to set several feats on fire to add extra spells that I can use every day, I have the feats to burn. I showed that.
The only problem is, most of that stuff is rather mediocre. Most of those spells, invocations, and abilities are really crappy, especially compared to what a tier one caster is pulling off. Honestly, the only thing that even comes close to working out in the tier 4's favor is using multiple iterations of arcane disciple to try their darnedest to emulate a tier one, which is nifty, but the tier one is already a tier one, and if I'm not mistaken you're drawing those feats from your actual base list, instead of from your massive list Also, incidentally, that exalted wild shape plan from before also gets all day magic circle, and spelless sensory modes. In any case, schoklat is probably correct, though designing a tier 4 gestalt that is agreeable could be prohibitively difficult.


The fact you're using tiers as an argumentation for classes in the first place is means the argumentation has no value. Now if anyone would actually PLAY a T1 and a T4> Gestalt in a game, they should come back to this thread with the knowledge they gained from that, instead of blindly holding on to amaturistic fanboyism. T1 and T2 classes seem good on 'paper' but I seen plenty of them die on a regular basis and outperformed by lower 'tier' classes.
Hence there is no debate possible since this is "hurr durr wizards OP" and I can vouch that besides maybe 2 other participants in this thread no one has ever tried it into actual play.
I don't really see any counter-arguments here. If you actually want to make a case, go right ahead, but randomly insulting folks for holding a position you've done nothing to refute makes no sense at all. I mean, have you even played this tier 4 gestalt, giving you the requisite experience that you feel is necessary to make a well reasonable argument? I'm somewhat doubtful. In any case, there is certainly a debate possible, particularly due to the intense power held by some magical effects that are potentially difficult to duplicate.

[schoklat]

In any case, schoklat is probably correct, though designing a tier 4 gestalt that is agreeable could be prohibitively difficult.

I'd be happy enough with one actually working example.
I mean, I can do it with a lowly d4 HD, 1/2 BAB Wizard just from core, prolly not even much touching my WBL...

[eggynack]

I'd be happy enough with one actually working example.
I mean, I can do it with a lowly d4 HD, 1/2 BAB Wizard just from core, prolly not even much touching my WBL...
There're just a lot of factors involved. There're a lot of classes each with their own individual decisions, and each class' decisions could theoretically take up a whole thread on its own. A basic version to work off of would be nice though.

[schoklat]

There're just a lot of factors involved. There're a lot of classes each with their own individual decisions, and each class' decisions could theoretically take up a whole thread on its own. A basic version to work off of would be nice though.

Any choices that help the character solve typical problems, like those three presented in the tier thread, are just fine. As usual there might be many roads to "victory", but even seeing it done once, so the gestalt can at least claim to live up to the established T1 examples, would be a great step forward for this discussion.

[Gnaeus]

Druids can pick up basically all day 120 foot blindsight as early as level seven, with zero long term investment.

But significant short term investment. You are stuck in the form of a desmodu bat, in which you can't fight for spit. You lock in one of your level 4 spells for Augment Wildshape. Assuming that you spend all day in that form (in order to make it comparable to my always active senses) you also have a feat tax (Natural Spell) and you need a method for speach. And unfortunately, for all that investment, my default senses and detection spells still beat yours for many things. How do you see an invisible opponent with Darkstalker? Or one that is maintaining range 200 feet away from you? If someone is coming up on you, how do you know if it is evil? Or undead? Your short term investment is not really better than my array of sensory powers + my vastly higher spot/listen that I get whenever I want. I get True Seeing 4 levels before you. I can see what effects are on enemies. And all you have is blindsight. I still have multiple routes to commune. How do you detect scrying, or trace teleport (I do it with Divine Mind).


As for movement modes and BFC's, you were pretty non-specific about exactly what you're doing for those things, so it's rather difficult to actually present a comparison.

As for BFC's, druids have crazy BFC's, obviously. What exactly are you pulling off there, and how does it compare to druid stuff. Just saying "free stuff" doesn't mean that much.

So were you. And you can read my spell lists as easily as I can read yours. Ice Storm and Wall of Fire a level before you get them. Stinking cloud. Evards Black Tentacles. Cloudkill. Acid Fog. Blade Barrier. Incendiary Cloud. Scintillating Pattern. And of course I can get Bracers of Entangling blast and BFC with my entire list of Warmage spells. Incedently, were you talking about Earthquake earlier? Because thats also a warmage spell, that I get a level before you, which means that I can cast it more often than you can, or cast a different spell if it isn't useful.


And thats just from Warmage. Walls of stone will come from Adept (since the rest of their level 5 list is already duplicated by Healer), as well as Darkness and Deeper Darkness. You can summon animals, and you have a pet as a mobile wall. I have half a dozen pets, + animate dead. And then there is personal battlefield control. Admittedly, this is something that druids are also good at, but not as good as the T4G. If you are in your Desmodu Bat form for your blindsight, you are much inferior to my combat reflexes +Improve Trip + improve grapple + half a dozen fighter feats for Thicket of Blades or whatever. On the limited resource side, Warlocks get some pretty sexy battlefield control options as well, usable at will.


It's pretty clear cut for druids though. They get a massive amount of swim speeds, burrow speeds, flight speeds, climb speeds, and pretty much anything else you could possibly want.

I can duplicate all of those without even leaving the Ranger list. Burrow is a ranger spell. So is Speed Swim. So is climb walls or climbing tree. Easy Climb. Snow Walk. I have multiple routes for flight. And of course, I am a Ninja, which has nice default bonuses for jumping and climbing, along with its ability to become ethereal. And don't forget, Polymorph is an Adept spell.

Meanwhile, for you, you either have to devote limited spell resources to those sources (because I don't care a bit about devoting my ranger spells to odd movement forms) or you need to wildshape. When you wildshape, you lose that 120 blindsight you were so proud of, unless you packed another Augment Wildshape. I can do all those as a human without imparing my ability to fight at all.



If you pick up exalted wild shape, which I believe to be a pretty optimal choice, I'm pretty doubtful that anything you do would even come close to free dimension door every round.

My Couatl pet has Plane Shift at will. As a Ninja, I can become ethereal. As a warlock, I could take Flee the Scene, which is basically at will D Door with the extra advantage that I leave an illusionary double where I was. Oh ye of little faith. And of course, you are using YOUR permanent resources to do it, which you previously said was a flaw. So if you spend 2 feats on Natural Spell and Exalted Wildshape, why don't I get to spend 2 feats on Arcane Disciple again? Since I have more feats than you?

[Talya]

Incedently, were you talking about Earthquake earlier? Because thats also a warmage spell, which means that I can cast it more often than you can, or cast a different spell if it isn't useful.

Minor quibble: Don't ever compare earthquake potential with a druid.

A level 7 druid with the Versatile Spellcaster feat and a ring of the beast can cast earthquake spontaneously out of two 4th level spell slots.
A level 9 druid with a ring of the beast can cast earthquake spontaneously out of a 5th level spell slot.
A level 11 druid with a ring of the beast can cast 1d3 earthquakes spontaneously out of a single level 6 spell slot.
A level 13 druid with a ring of the beast can cast 1d4+1 earthquakes spontaneously out of a single level 7 spell slot.

(Without a ring of the beast, add 2 to every druid level reference, and add 1 to every spell slot level reference, but it all still applies.)

[Gnaeus]

Minor quibble: Don't ever compare earthquake potential with a druid.

A level 9 druid with the Versatile Spellcaster feat can cast earthquake spontaneously out of two 5th level spell slots.
A level 11 druid can cast earthquake spontaneously out of a 6th level spell slot.
A level 13 druid can cast 1d3 earthquakes spontaneously out of a single level 7 spell slot.
A level 15 druid can cast 1d4+1 earthquakes spontaneously out of a single level 8 spell slot.

Fair enough. I concede that I am not better than the druid at this, only about as good. Versatile Spellcaster is another one of those permanent resources that I have more of than he does, but am somehow less able to claim than he is. Otherwise, he is doing it via Summons, which means that he is spending a turn (and the risk of being disrupted) to cast a spell that takes me a standard. And the ability to summon at will is not a given. I have played druids and S Shamans in games where suddenly planar traits were preventing summons, so I will still maintain that having it earlier on your own list is sometimes better than having the ability to summon something that can do it.

And if he gets Ring of the Beast assumed, I am claiming 4 sets of Bracers of Entangling Blast (same cost, easier to make), and doing BFC at will with the entire warmage list.

[Talya]

Fair enough. I concede that I am not better than the druid at this, only about as good. Versatile Spellcaster is another one of those permanent resources that I have more of than he does, but am somehow less able to claim than he is. Otherwise, he is doing it via Summons, which means that he is spending a turn (and the risk of being disrupted) to cast a spell that takes me a standard. And the ability to summon at will is not a given. I have played druids and S Shamans in games where suddenly planar traits were preventing summons, so I will still maintain that having it earlier on your own list is sometimes better than having the ability to summon something that can do it.

Versatile Spellcaster is only needed for doing it at level 7.

But yes, it requires a summon. An Oread has Earthquake as one of its many spell like abilities, and the Fiend Folio puts the Oread into Summon Nature's Ally VI. The ring of the beast makes all your summon nature's ally spells count as one spell level higher (so a SNA V acts like SNA VI). Versatile spellcaster lets you use two level 4 spell slots to cast SNA V, etc.

By level 13, with a ring of the beast, you're summoning 1d4+1 Oreads out of a seventh level slot (or 8th level slot at 15 without a ring.)

You are right, though, that it's possible you can negate a druid's summoning ability. Such situations are exceptionally rare, the DM has to basically intentionally tailor an encounter to screw over the druid, because they will never encounter such a situation in an adventure or campaign setting without the DM constructing the encounter that way.

I fully support getting bracers of the entangling blast (although I wouldn't bother with four of them. You're already going to take the feat Entangling Exhalation for your DFA levels and entangle all day at will.) They're an excellent item. Don't forget, I'm one of the ones who thinks the ubergestalt Tier 4 and under would be a Tier 2 character, while an Ubergestalt Tier 3 and under would be an easy Tier 1.

I just am quibbling over earthquakes. Nobody earthquakes better than a druid.

[Gnaeus]

You are right, though, that it's possible you can negate a druid's summoning ability. Such situations are exceptionally rare, the DM has to basically intentionally tailor an encounter to screw over the druid, because they will never encounter such a situation in an adventure or campaign setting without the DM constructing the encounter that way.

I had it happen 3 times in the same campaign. First time, we had entered a pocket plane in the brain of a construct. No summons. Second time, we were in the abyss. No natural type creatures to summon, only fire subtypes available. Third time, we were on a plane being assimilated by something like the Borg (magical version) and everything I summoned I had to roll to see if it had already been assimilated and would just attack us. I was less than thrilled. I no longer assume summons as a sure thing.


They're an excellent item. Don't forget, I'm one of the ones who thinks the ubergestalt Tier 4 and under would be a Tier 2 character, while an Ubergestalt Tier 3 and under would be an easy Tier 1.


I agree that T3 Ubergestalt is strong T1. I would even agree that T4G is tier 2. But he is a very strange T2 which I think would tend to outperform T1s in play. It isn't that there aren't cases where a T1 might have an ability that he cannot match. It is that he has so many abilities, always available, and some of them are so devastatingly powerful or useful that I think he would be better in any case in which the T1 does not have a lot of very detailed advanced knowledge, and in many cases even if they do. I think that we forget on the boards some times that for many games, a T4 ubercharger is more powerful (if not as versatile) as a typical T1. His weakness only emerges if his I win button does not work. The T4G has so many I win buttons that I think it would really require an unusual circumstance that one of his powers will not be amazing in a situation. OTOH, while a T1 is never useless, I have certainly seen lots of situations in which they did not pick the best spells for that day, and underperformed as a result.

[Lans]

I think its important to mention the rogue can get 4 bonus feats with out restrictions.

[Talya]

I had it happen 3 times in the same campaign. First time, we had entered a pocket plane in the brain of a construct. No summons. Second time, we were in the abyss. No natural type creatures to summon, only fire subtypes available. Third time, we were on a plane being assimilated by something like the Borg (magical version) and everything I summoned I had to roll to see if it had already been assimilated and would just attack us. I was less than thrilled. I no longer assume summons as a sure thing.



I'm fairly sure, in most campaign settings, both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally are able to pull their summons across planes, unless you happen to be in a "locked" prison plane scenario. Note that Summon Nature's Ally can pull from elemental planes into Prime Material...so why can't it pull from Prime Material into elemental (or other) planes?

There's nothing by RAW that restricts it in this manner. Any restrictions would need to be written into the setting.

[eggynack]

Tier 2 sounds reasonably reasonable. The gestalt would tend to get a massive pile of abilities that are fixed in the long term, which seems tier 2'ish. I wonder if a tier 5 and lower uber-gestalt would be a tier 3. Seems possible.

[Aquillion]

Gate can be helpful, but without XP cheese it isn't nearly as useful as people pretend it is. Though alone it is a bit like a T2 ability with a very high cost.The Truenamer doesn't pay XP to cast Gate. They get to use it as often as they want for free, with the only limit being that you can't have more than one gated minion at once because of the Law of Sequence.

Yes, it is just as broken as it sounds. (But they only get it at Level 20 and suck utterly until then.)

A level 20 Truenamer is probably Tier 1 based entirely on that one power, but they're a fundimentally broken class (as in "does not function as intended", not "overpowered"), so they probably shouldn't be used in tier discussions at all. In fact, IIRC the original tier list refused to rate it for that reason.

[Jormengand]

To the T4-fans:
How about you stop throwing around feat lists and all, and instead actually take the tier test. Level 5 for your convenience, a single character built to your choice. Solve all three scenarios at CR+2, aka challenging to a regular party.

Hang on, hang on.


Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call.

What about this screams "Level 5" to you?

If he's even using Greater Floating Disk, I'm using energy negation and reversed seek the sky to prevent the dragon doing anything to me, while I throw reversed mortalbane stuff at his face. I don't even need the gestalt, straight TN will do me. By the time he's throwing Genesis around, I'm turning the dragon ethereal, instantaneously, with no save, and poking him with Magic Missile equivalents (or using normal ether reforged on me, and whacking him with a greatsword) then finishing him off by transmuting my greatsword into thinaun and stabbing the bastard in the face.


Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there.

Diplomancer. Gather information checks through the roof. Steal things from what the rogue does. Yeah. We're okay. In fact, we're okay from level 1.


Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

Sorry, was that "Gate in a Solar"? Uh, you realise that we have one class who can do that at level 17, and one who can do that almost at will by level 20? Hell, at level 17 we have Speak Unto The Masses, which will totally wreck you.

Sure, you can fire off the LCB at level 7, but by that point we're already running around with enough stuff to whirlwind attack everyone within about 500 feet (Spool of endless rope + drunken master) and you can also make, like, the entire area difficult terrain. That's gonna annoy the enemy army quite a bit. And you know what? You can do that at level 4! Cheesy, yeah, but not even approaching LCB levels of cheesy.

[Talya]

A level 20 Truenamer is probably Tier 1 based entirely on that one power, but they're a fundimentally broken class (as in "does not function as intended", not "overpowered"), so they probably shouldn't be used in tier discussions at all. In fact, IIRC the original tier list refused to rate it for that reason.


I feel like a broken record:

The tier system only evaluates levels 6-15.

[eggynack]

What about this screams "Level 5" to you?
A lot of it, actually. That's a listing of a lot of options at a lot of levels, primarily because the tier system measures options at a lot of levels. Some of those options are level 5 options, like shivering touch, spectral hand, and alter self, and some of them aren't. The ones that are level 5 scream level 5 to me.


Sorry, was that "Gate in a Solar"? Uh, you realise that we have one class who can do that at level 17, and one who can do that almost at will by level 20? Hell, at level 17 we have Speak Unto The Masses, which will totally wreck you.

Here too you are focusing in on one thing. There's a list there, primarily because you're expected to use the ones that you can use at the level you're evaluating. So, the 5th level wizard has the options that a 5th level wizard has, as does the gestalt. You're over-thinking the presence of high level options, in other words.

[Jormengand]

A lot of it, actually. That's a listing of a lot of options at a lot of levels, primarily because the tier system measures options at a lot of levels. Some of those options are level 5 options, like shivering touch, spectral hand, and alter self, and some of them aren't. The ones that are level 5 scream level 5 to me.


Here too you are focusing in on one thing. There's a list there, primarily because you're expected to use the ones that you can use at the level you're evaluating. So, the 5th level wizard has the options that a 5th level wizard has, as does the gestalt. You're over-thinking the presence of high level options, in other words.

I'd still like to point out that I can be all over the second encounter at level 1, and the third by level 4. The first, I can only think of a way to do it by level 7, though I'm sure there's a better way of doing it.

[Gnaeus]

Equally to the point, I don't think stuff like Locate City Bomb is actually that helpful.

1. It is pretty rare that you would want to level a city in a typical game.
2. If you do, its pretty likely that a fantasy city in a world with an optimization level where a DM allows a LCB where you are not going to get countermeasures.
3. If you can destroy a city at level 7, you are certainly going to die from angry high level casters/outsiders seeking revenge soon after.

This is clearly a corner case where T1s are better than T4G. But it is not convincing to me that this actually makes a T1 "better". I will agree that a T1 has more gamebreakers than a T4G. But breaking a game is rarely helpful. The question is not "in the abstract, which has more ways to break the game T1 or T4G?" The question is "which is better"?

[Gnaeus]

Disclaimer, while I remember the basics of these scenarios, I can't remember which original post they came from. A link will be helpful. Jormengand is correct, but let me expand this.



If he's even using Greater Floating Disk, I'm using energy negation and reversed seek the sky to prevent the dragon doing anything to me, while I throw reversed mortalbane stuff at his face. I don't even need the gestalt, straight TN will do me. By the time he's throwing Genesis around, I'm turning the dragon ethereal, instantaneously, with no save, and poking him with Magic Missile equivalents (or using normal ether reforged on me, and whacking him with a greatsword) then finishing him off by transmuting my greatsword into thinaun and stabbing the bastard in the face.

So, we are fighting a dragon here? OK. The T4G is a superior combatant. At level 5, I have all good saves. Mettle. Evasion. So if the dragon ambushes me, I am way more likely to survive. With darkstalker and all my skill cheese, I can likely sneak up on the dragon far better than you can with stuff like invisibility, which just loses to blindsense. Combat damage is kind of my thing, so I should have no problem invisibly chargepouncesmite killing any dragon with my full bab and pile of precision damage. Or I can Bilbo the dragon and walk into its lair and talk to it, which most dragons are more than willing to do, and then diplomance it. A dragon with scintillating scales will beat your shivering touch combo, but will have a very hard time defeating all the ways to defeat it that I can bring to play before level 5. And when I'm done, I can do it again. And I can get animate dead also.


Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there.

Diplomancer. Gather information checks through the roof. Steal things from what the rogue does. Yeah. We're okay. In fact, we're okay from level 1.

Right. Any encounter that can be resolved with diplomacy we will crush. But we also have more detective tools than typical T1. Stuff like multiple Detects at will, so we can check every townsperson we meet for evil, or illusion or transmutation effects (or poison, or being undead, etc...). Spellthief will add some utility spells from the Sor/Wiz list. Paladin gives Zone of Truth.


Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer. .

Jormengand got this right, but I will add that we have more options here as well. We also get wall of stone. Between Ninja resistance to scrying, Darkstalker, invisibility, and skill focuses, we can also assassinate leaders very, very well. Or negotiate with them, if we prefer. I will admit, as I have before in this thread, that fighting enemy armies is an area where the T1 has a slight edge.

But this is cool. We can do all this, virtually without prep. On the same day.

Example: Our guy wakes up, and is called into the city watch office to solve a mystery about someone sabotaging the city defenses. We investigate, and we quickly determine that some members of the city guard are impostors (by detecting evil, or detecting the magic on them, or that they are not members of the city's religion, or that they are lying). We diplomance or intimidate them into revealing that they were under orders from a green dragon hiding in the sewers.

We walk straight to the sewers, which are filled with the dragon's Kobold followers. Fortunately, we are experts at trapfinding. Navigate sewers, disarm traps, 3 or 4 minor encounters, which we beat, healing after each one. Dragon ambushes us, we survive, and dragon escapes. We track the dragon to its lair (we can Track!) either sneak up on it, or talk to it. At a key moment, we chargepounce the dragon, bringing it near death, then Intimidate it into revealing its plans. It now tells us that we are too late, and its army is already advancing on the city...

No time to lose. Fly to the enemy army. Sneak in with Darkstalker and amazing stealth skills, or disguise onesself as a guard and diplomance our way in. Scout the army. Assassinate its general. Just for good measure, lets fireball their stables or their armory as we are flying out.

All this requires just 1 feat (Darkstalker). It assumes only that Paladin, Spellthief, and Divine Mind are our lists we use for info gathering, ranger is our list for movement types (we didn't actually need it on this day), Our default energy resists and evasion/mettle protect us from the Dragon's breath, paladin from its fear aura. Diplomacy/Intimidate/Stealth are always ready, and stronger in those areas than most T1s. A Barbarian/Fighter/Ninja/Rogue/Ranger can kill anything it can hit, and being invisible in combat, with full BAB, it can hit most things. I didn't even use warlock, except for the social encounters. Moreover, I can do that with under 15 gp of gear, basically a holy symbol and spell component pouch. Soul knife provides my free magic weapon. I don't need armor, or healing gear. I could gimp mysef with VoP or use entire WBL on stat buffs or scrolls or whatever.

[Coidzor]

To the T4-fans:
How about you stop throwing around feat lists and all, and instead actually take the tier test. Level 5 for your convenience, a single character built to your choice. Solve all three scenarios at CR+2, aka challenging to a regular party.

The lion's share of the difficulty is in actually quantifying this hypothetical uber gestalt and the options available to it. Which you'd have to do anyway for what you're suggesting.

What can it do, what options are available to it, to know that requires looking at the class features and the spell lists, and there's been a little bit of skirting around that because a full analysis would take a bunch of time and then actually writing it out.

Also, it's just darned amusing to think of the sheer number of feats that could get Dark Chaos Shuffled around.

But, alright. The first step is to agree what's Tier 4 and below. Are we just using JaronK's post (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=kt407s7h3ongsfm1bkughivf03&topic=658) or are we using another (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=kt407s7h3ongsfm1bkughivf03&topic=8740) one(say, one that puts Totemists as T4 and Healers as T5)?

Then I think there's sourcing, but maybe that's actually step 1. WOTC book only or is Dragon Magazine kosher? What about the WOTC website?

Additional concerns that occur to me off the top of my head... Are class variants legal or just the vanilla class? What about ACFs? ACF Chaining? Racial Substitution Levels? When classes appear in a different tier due to an ACF or variant, which one is used or are both used? Is Dungeoncrasher Fighter counted as separate from Fighter? If not, which one do we use?

[JaronK]

The answer to this question depends on optimization level. At higher optimization, the T4 gestalt wins, simply because a Dragonwrought Kobold Warmage with the right Sovereign Archetype can get all Cleric spells on his spell list. This means our super gestalt is now a Cleric who traded his domain abilities and Turn Undead for countless benefits, including D12HD, 8+Int skills, 11+ bonus feats, sneak attack, sudden strike, and a host of other benefits.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

The answer to this question depends on optimization level. At higher optimization, the T4 gestalt wins, simply because a Dragonwrought Kobold Warmage with the right Sovereign Archetype can get all Cleric spells on his spell list. This means our super gestalt is now a Cleric who traded his domain abilities and Turn Undead for countless benefits, including D12HD, 8+Int skills, 11+ bonus feats, sneak attack, sudden strike, and a host of other benefits.

JaronK

How does one get a Sovereign Archetype to interact with Warmage casting? :smallconfused:


My Couatl pet has Plane Shift at will.

Where do you get the Couatl pet from?

[Lans]

I feel like a broken record:

The tier system only evaluates levels 6-15.

I believe it emphasisis those levels, but takes all levels into account.




How does one get a Sovereign Archetype to interact with Warmage casting? :smallconfused: Player choice at 1st level involving kobold




Where do you get the Couatl pet from?
Healer

[Coidzor]

Player choice at 1st level involving kobold

Wow. What a total non-answer.

[paddyfool]

But this is cool. We can do all this, virtually without prep. On the same day.

Example: Our guy wakes up, and is called into the city watch office to solve a mystery about someone sabotaging the city defenses. We investigate, and we quickly determine that some members of the city guard are impostors (by detecting evil, or detecting the magic on them, or that they are not members of the city's religion, or that they are lying). We diplomance or intimidate them into revealing that they were under orders from a green dragon hiding in the sewers.

We walk straight to the sewers, which are filled with the dragon's Kobold followers. Fortunately, we are experts at trapfinding. Navigate sewers, disarm traps, 3 or 4 minor encounters, which we beat, healing after each one. Dragon ambushes us, we survive, and dragon escapes. We track the dragon to its lair (we can Track!) either sneak up on it, or talk to it. At a key moment, we chargepounce the dragon, bringing it near death, then Intimidate it into revealing its plans. It now tells us that we are too late, and its army is already advancing on the city...

No time to lose. Fly to the enemy army. Sneak in with Darkstalker and amazing stealth skills, or disguise onesself as a guard and diplomance our way in. Scout the army. Assassinate its general. Just for good measure, lets fireball their stables or their armory as we are flying out.

All this requires just 1 feat (Darkstalker). It assumes only that Paladin, Spellthief, and Divine Mind are our lists we use for info gathering, ranger is our list for movement types (we didn't actually need it on this day), Our default energy resists and evasion/mettle protect us from the Dragon's breath, paladin from its fear aura. Diplomacy/Intimidate/Stealth are always ready, and stronger in those areas than most T1s. A Barbarian/Fighter/Ninja/Rogue/Ranger can kill anything it can hit, and being invisible in combat, with full BAB, it can hit most things. I didn't even use warlock, except for the social encounters. Moreover, I can do that with under 15 gp of gear, basically a holy symbol and spell component pouch. Soul knife provides my free magic weapon. I don't need armor, or healing gear. I could gimp mysef with VoP or use entire WBL on stat buffs or scrolls or whatever.

Thread: won. (And I really didn't have a dog in this fight before this).

[Jormengand]

Wow. What a total non-answer.

Assuming something to do with dragonwrought, but...

[Coidzor]

Assuming something to do with dragonwrought, but...

Dragonwrought lets you get access to Sovereign Archetypes. Unless I've missed something about Sovereign Archetypes, they effect the dragon's racial spellcasting, not class-based spellcasting, except that dragons are able to progress their racial spellcasting with levels in sorcerer and PrCs, and Loredrake gives racial spellcasting to dragons that do not (implied yet) have racial spellcasting.

So I expressed curiosity as to how one was jumping it from Sorcerer to Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Bard/Whathaveyou, all I'm aware of is Spellhoarding's ability to transform racial sorcerer casting into racial wizard casting and thus get cleric/druid spells on a wizard chassis or, more usually, give a venerable dragonwrought kobold ECL + 3 Wizard casting in conjunction with the greater draconic rite of passage.

[DeAnno]

The sheer endurance of the gestalt really shouldn't be underestimated. Ganeus' example is telling in that the gestalt didn't need to prepare, it didn't need to really be careful, and it didn't need to rest to get everything done that needed to be gotten done.

A lot of these theoretical wizards live in towers in the sky in a lot of ways. A lot of effort is spent on constant divinations, elaborate defensive networks, and what have you. Sure, the wizard is probably in all practicality unkillable, and likely to succeed at any plans he sets his mind to eventually, but he only has so much gasoline in him each day, even if he uses it very efficiently.

When threats resistant to divinations or otherwise unpredicted prop up from the woodwork, things might get trickier for the wizard. If he's at the point where he already has an Ice Assassin army and is mind switched into a Shadesteel Golem, the game has already practically ended anyway. If he isn't at that point, then the amount of capital he can bring to bear against unexpected stuff coming at him is just not on the same level as the gestalt. Strategically, over the long term, the T1 will generally be superior. Tactically, dealing with an unfolding furball as it ruins the day, the gestalt is usually going to be more useful.

Ultimately, the T1 character is the Villain playing Xanatos Speed Chess, and the Gestalt is the Hero saving the day. Ask yourself which one you want to be, and your question is answered.

[aleucard]

The answer to this question depends on optimization level. At higher optimization, the T4 gestalt wins, simply because a Dragonwrought Kobold Warmage with the right Sovereign Archetype can get all Cleric spells on his spell list. This means our super gestalt is now a Cleric who traded his domain abilities and Turn Undead for countless benefits, including D12HD, 8+Int skills, 11+ bonus feats, sneak attack, sudden strike, and a host of other benefits.

JaronK

I don't really think that'd count, mainly because, as you said, you're basically upgrading Warmage to a semi-Cleric. I wouldn't be willing to add any form of Kobold shenanigans into evidence anyway; that just proves the superiority of a race, not a class.

[SinsI]

As long as the DM properly enforces the WBL, a gestalt of T4 can solve a lot more situations far easier than any T1 could.

[schoklat]

Cheers for providing examples, those were a ton more helpful than many pages of list X vs list Y.

Like it or not, that T4G looks like it can have as much impact as any T1, so by definition it belongs into T1.
(Yes, there may be minor arguments about "how good are your BAB/pounce/..." combo-tricks at level Z, "how many skill points you actually got where", etc... You may also argue that T4G doesn't get as many world shattering shenanigans as early as some usual T1s... But that's details, because when you have a definition, you stick to it and simply check if it applies or not, you're done.)

[Kennisiou]

Cheers for providing examples, those were a ton more helpful than many pages of list X vs list Y.

Like it or not, that T4G looks like it can have as much impact as any T1, so by definition it belongs into T1.
(Yes, there may be minor arguments about "how good are your BAB/pounce/..." combo-tricks at level Z, "how many skill points you actually got where", etc... You may also argue that T4G doesn't get as many world shattering shenanigans as early as some usual T1s... But that's details, because when you have a definition, you stick to it and simply check if it applies or not, you're done.)

I dunno, though. I'm pretty sure by that example I could pretty easily build a factotum capable of doing everything listed by itself as well. Probably a beguiler and possibly a dread necro as well (need to doublecheck spell lists, but fairly certain I can invisibility tricks/enchantment tricks for most of these encounters on beguiler and just cause the wightocalypse on Dread Necro). I mean, I can understand those classes being T2 and the gestalt being T1 (since I'd need to expend way more limited resources on being able to do these things on a Factotum than the T4G does) but it seems to me like it's a flaw in the tiering system.

[demigodus]

I don't really think that'd count, mainly because, as you said, you're basically upgrading Warmage to a semi-Cleric. I wouldn't be willing to add any form of Kobold shenanigans into evidence anyway; that just proves the superiority of a race, not a class.

That is just optimizing Warmage. Yes, it is a higher level of Optimization than most of us would use, but JaronK's point remains; beyond a certain level of optimization, it is straight up T1, just through Warmage.

So the question is, is it T1, below said level of Optimization. This would be the level of op where T1's don't live on private demiplanes, guarded by an army of Ice Assassins, interacting with the world through Astral Projection.

Basically, if you want to shoot down stupidly high op from the T4G, you need to shoot down stupidly high op from the T1.

[schoklat]

I dunno, though. I'm pretty sure by that example I could pretty easily build a factotum capable of doing everything listed by itself as well. Probably a beguiler and possibly a dread necro as well (need to doublecheck spell lists, but fairly certain I can invisibility tricks/enchantment tricks for most of these encounters on beguiler and just cause the wightocalypse on Dread Necro). I mean, I can understand those classes being T2 and the gestalt being T1 (since I'd need to expend way more limited resources on being able to do these things on a Factotum than the T4G does) but it seems to me like it's a flaw in the tiering system.

The point is not if you can do it at L20... The point is if you can do (at an appropriate level of opposition) across the larger part of the level range. I don't see Factotum doing that, but feel free to educate me.

PS: Yes, I probably bent JaronK's post about tiers a bit, but easily meeting all three challenges in the same build makes you a damn big contender for T1. The rest is largely escalation of T-OP options.

[aleucard]

That is just optimizing Warmage. Yes, it is a higher level of Optimization than most of us would use, but JaronK's point remains; beyond a certain level of optimization, it is straight up T1, just through Warmage.

So the question is, is it T1, below said level of Optimization. This would be the level of op where T1's don't live on private demiplanes, guarded by an army of Ice Assassins, interacting with the world through Astral Projection.

Basically, if you want to shoot down stupidly high op from the T4G, you need to shoot down stupidly high op from the T1.

Stupidly-high OP such as that is usually assumed to be off the table around here for actual gameplay, yes? There's a difference between playing with the hand you've been dealt well and playing the game's rules against themselves. This topic assumes the former.

[JaronK]

When we're talking about gestalting together every T4 class, I don't think you can assume anything about what's on the table here...

JaronK

[Kennisiou]

The point is not if you can do it at L20... The point is if you can do (at an appropriate level of opposition) across the larger part of the level range. I don't see Factotum doing that, but feel free to educate me.


Factotum doesn't need l20 to be a relevant combat threat, just needs a way to easily get iajutsu focus damage off or archery stuff. With feats and spells, you can do that at level 8 or 9 (archery may want a 2 level fighter dip, delaying its time for it to come online to level 10). You just go around quickrazor IF'ing/greater manyshotting with multiple standard actions and combat is taken care of. The other two encounters can be solved with factotum skill checks and SLAs fairly easily by that level. While you can argue that it doesn't happen until the mid-level range, I'd point to Favored Soul as a counterpoint, since their spell selection also has trouble allowing them to accomplish some of these tasks at all, let alone by the midlevel range, and they're still considered a t2 class (Cleric domains can handle a lot of the sneaky-blasty-skilly stuff that Favored Souls just flat out can't do, explaining why they can handle the challenges with minimal optimization but FS can't).


To give a more concrete set of examples...


While the factotum can't afford to spend spells figuring out what went wrong, between Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Intimidate (and the ability to give +factotum level to each check once a day) he should have no real problems rooting out the corruption. If that's really all he has to do for the day he can prepare charm person to help get through more of the social end of this encounter, not to mention eagle's splendor or owl's wisdom to give him a broad bonus to the skills (and that's just laziness on my part for not looking up better spells, I'm sure they exist at levels 2-3 on the wizard list). This is the one the factotum handles best. The class just does this with no permanent resource expenditure at all. No feats, gear, or spell selection necessary.

Factotum against a dragon two levels above him is a bit harder. Poison archer factotum should be able to handle it with some prep, since he can manyshot, like, 6 arrows out in the first turn each carrying enough con damage or dex damage to kill/paralyze the dragon, or at least turn the fight into a joke (dex damage poison being the easiest one here). Iaijutsu Focus melee factotum would probably have to sneak into the room (between invisibility, move silently and hide this shouldn't be a problem) and then proceed to fire off as many Iaijutsu Focus attacks as he can in the surprise round by dumping more inspiration points into more standard actions. I've seen Factotums as low as level 10 output well in the range of 150 damage in a single turn, although it does take almost all of their encounter resources to do so (wouldn't be surprised if someone were to show me a way a factotum could output more). 150 HP is, admittedly, not all the dragon's health, but it's enough of it that the Factotum should be left in a position after the surprise round where they're capable of finishing the dragon off before the dragon finishes them. The dragon may escape and regroup, but that's really the worst case scenario: the dragon is gone, but not dead, and may return, which is still a win in my books. This is, however, assuming you don't sneak in while the dragon is asleep. If the dragon is asleep the IF factotum gets easy coup de grace damage with a single Iaijutsu Focus attack enhanced by all of his inspiration points worth of bonus sneak attack damage die. This is probably the most contentious one, because every solution will involve precise allocation of feats, skill points, and probably some wealth on gear. Poison for just a single encounter is actually cheap, though, assuming you know when/where it's going to happen. It's just 100 gold for a psionic tattoo of minor creation, which depending on the manifester level of the tattoo artist could grant you half a day of poison. So you'll defiinitely have to invest wealth in both of these paths, but not as much as you may think (and the wealth investment for the IF Factotum is pretty much just standard magcal gear like a +1 weapon to overcome DR and the like).

As for the army, sneaking in, assassinating a general, and sneaking out is just a few skill rolls and maybe an SLA with some well-applied poison or IF damage generally taking them out in one turn. Sabotaging their supply lines on the way out with some good disguise and bluff checks further reduces the army's capacities. Oh, and they can diplobot up an army of their own so once they've sewn all that chaos in their ranks they can just send their army in to finish them off. Again, this one should not be contentious at all. It's skill rolls and requires basically no wealth investment or feat investment (getting enough poison for one lethal dagger in the back is different from loading up a poison archer factotum to fight a dragon, and is also not necessary for the kill, just helpful).

[Vaz]

I'm voting t1. The t4 would get...warmage and healer casting, which isn't very good at all - though I'm not super familiar with the healer's list. If they have some good defensive spells the character might stand a chance, but 'sides that I don't think any t4 has effective defenses against a t1 offense. It'd be trivial, probably.

Healers are primarily after combat only, with the exception of Cure Minor Wounds for stabilising. Protection from Evil, Freedom of Movement, Foresight and Gate are the other "gems" in its spell list otherwise though at the various levels. Warmage's bonus "Sudden Empowers/Maximise" work otherwise though.

A Godsblood Spelltheft Spellthief in Gestalt is insanely good due to Sudden Strike and Ambush stacking altogether for massive damage and the ability to choose a pretty broken Domain; Trickery for "Sneak Attack for ~26d6 damage, oh, and I cast Miracle"

With Charisma benefits in other classes, combining things like Paladin, Hexblade, Zhentarim Fighter and Samurai with Imperious Command you can find some way to maximise it with Marshal aura's. OA Samurai for the weapons and feats.

Incarnate and Totemist are T4 right? They're going to increase utility throughout all levels.

Thinking about it, however, considering that all the tricks add up to just what a Full T1 Caster can do, however; whether that be Chain Gating by Healer, or using Miracle to recreate any effect, a Tier 1 can already do that. Without access to the more unique stuff in Tier 3, like Binding, proper Psionics (no Lurk and Soulknives do not count) or ToB, however, a lot of it is still limited; Battlefield Control is limited, for example.

[Coidzor]

Incarnate and Totemist are T4 right? They're going to increase utility throughout all levels.

Thinking about it, however, considering that all the tricks add up to just what a Full T1 Caster can do, however; whether that be Chain Gating by Healer, or using Miracle to recreate any effect, a Tier 1 can already do that. Without access to the more unique stuff in Tier 3, like Binding, proper Psionics (no Lurk and Soulknives do not count) or ToB, however, a lot of it is still limited; Battlefield Control is limited, for example.

Incarnate seems to be agreed to be T3, though there is some contention on that front. Totemist I've seen assigned T4 more often, but T3 still seems to be the more common designation.

Haven't run into any discussion of Battlefield Control beyond investing in Intimidate-locking, no.

[AmberVael]

Battlefield Control is limited, for example.

From Adept they can get Web and Wall of Stone (along with worse stuff like wall of fire, obscuring mist, deeper darkness). Ranger offers Entangle and Wind Wall. Warlock has the options of Caustic Mire, Chilling Tentacles, Nightmare Terrain, and again a variety of less notable but present invocations. Add in Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Cloud Kill, and Prismatic Wall/Sphere from Warmage, and the gestalt definitely has some battlefield control options- some pretty decent ones, in fact, and enough resources to use them constantly. These options start coming in at level 4 and keep getting better from then on.

Add in intimidate/imperious command and combat reflexes, and they're pretty good at it.

[Jormengand]

From Adept they can get Web and Wall of Stone (along with worse stuff like wall of fire, obscuring mist, deeper darkness). Ranger offers Entangle and Wind Wall. Warlock has the options of Caustic Mire, Chilling Tentacles, Nightmare Terrain, and again a variety of less notable but present invocations. Add in Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Cloud Kill, and Prismatic Wall/Sphere from Warmage, and the gestalt definitely has some battlefield control options- some pretty decent ones, in fact, and enough resources to use them constantly. These options start coming in at level 4 and keep getting better from then on.

Add in intimidate/imperious command and combat reflexes, and they're pretty good at it.

Not to mention the difficult terrain, improvisation thing and spool of endless rope allows them to make 500 ft radius difficult terrain.

[Lans]

Incarnate seems to be agreed to be T3, though there is some contention on that front. Totemist I've seen assigned T4 more often, but T3 still seems to be the more common designation.

.

I for one put incarnate at high tier 4, because I feel that most of its versatility just lets it be different flavors of tier 5. Kind of like the warlock where if it got a little bit more it would be tier 3. Give it a mediam BAB, a d8 HD, and 4 maybe 6 sp/level or even just a bonus feat every 2 or 3 levels, and you have tier 3.

Totemist, I feel is like a barbarian with flight or tremor sense, or a breath weapon, or other utility boosts. Which is why I think its tier 3.

There are other grey area classes, Shadowcaster and Wilder. I don't know if there is others

[Irk]

I'm open to both sides, but I'm wondering how the action economy factors into this. Absorption shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739) can effectively allow for infinite nested celerities, while planar bubble: Dal Quor has a 10:1 time ratio. Actually, what about just using absorption to get infinite wishes or infinite gates? How useful are such things out of combat?

Most of the above break the game, so the real question is how does action economy play a role, as T1s, I think, easily supersede T4s in this respect.

EDIT: most of the challenges presented can, I believe, be met by the T1s and T4s

EDIT2: for T4 there is also this concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240212) (not the build, but the idea)

[aleucard]

I'm open to both sides, but I'm wondering how the action economy factors into this. Absorption shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739) can effectively allow for infinite nested celerities, while planar bubble: Dal Quor has a 10:1 time ratio. Actually, what about just using absorption to get infinite wishes or infinite gates? How useful are such things out of combat?

Most of the above break the game, so the real question is how does action economy play a role, as T1s, I think, easily supersede T4s in this respect.

EDIT: most of the challenges presented can, I believe, be met by the T1s and T4s

EDIT2: for T4 there is also this concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240212) (not the build, but the idea)

Only Tippy can quite literally stumble across a trick that can overkill a Tarrasque in one shot. Nothing in its SRD listing says it regenerates ability damage. Even if you don't do the wish thing, all it'll be doing until some moron heals it is drooling on the landscape until the end of time. :smallbiggrin:

Would be an interesting feat to be able to pull one of those off on a wary T1, though, especially a Wizard.

[demigodus]

I'm open to both sides, but I'm wondering how the action economy factors into this. Absorption shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739) can effectively allow for infinite nested celerities, while planar bubble: Dal Quor has a 10:1 time ratio. Actually, what about just using absorption to get infinite wishes or infinite gates? How useful are such things out of combat?

Most of the above break the game, so the real question is how does action economy play a role, as T1s, I think, easily supersede T4s in this respect.

EDIT: most of the challenges presented can, I believe, be met by the T1s and T4s

EDIT2: for T4 there is also this concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240212) (not the build, but the idea)

First, Dal Quor requires Planar Shepherd. That is considered a T0 PrC, not T1. Also, we are comparing base classes, not with prestige classes thrown in.

Second, if you are using Absorption shenanigans, a similar level of op has the T4G be a dragonwrought kobold using Sovereign Archetypes to turn the Warmage spell list into the Cleric spell list. At which point it is a spontaneous Cleric with access to all Cleric spells (minus Domains) and more spells per day, 3 levels lower Turn Undead (Via Paladin) which lets you DMM just as hard, and better everything else. Cleric is undeniably T1.

Meaning, that at very high optimization, the T4G is undeniably T1 (or possibly T0 due to the whole spontaneous factor allowing it to forgo any need for preparation).

We need to look at them at a lower level of optimization. Such levels of OP would not involve Absorption Shenanigans levels of cheese.

[Irk]

Would be an interesting feat to be able to pull one of those off on a wary T1, though, especially a Wizard.

Construct essence (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-eberron--10/construct-essence--4806/), among many spells, provide protection from this.

[Irk]

First, Dal Quor requires Planar Shepherd. That is considered a T0 PrC, not T1. Also, we are comparing base classes, not with prestige classes thrown in.

Not with the spell Planar bubble (http://dndtools.eu/spells/planar-handbook--79/planar-bubble--2140/)


Second, if you are using Absorption shenanigans, a similar level of op has the T4G be a dragonwrought kobold using Sovereign Archetypes to turn the Warmage spell list into the Cleric spell list. At which point it is a spontaneous Cleric with access to all Cleric spells (minus Domains) and more spells per day, 3 levels lower Turn Undead (Via Paladin) which lets you DMM just as hard, and better everything else. Cleric is undeniably T1.

Again, I'm not particularly polarized. As I said before, none of those are really serviceable as examples because they break the game. My intention was to divine the role of the action economy, which is more easily exploited by T1s


Meaning, that at very high optimization, the T4G is undeniably T1 (or possibly T0 due to the whole spontaneous factor allowing it to forgo any need for preparation).

I would agree with this, and someone already said so as well.


We need to look at them at a lower level of optimization. Such levels of OP would not involve Absorption Shenanigans levels of cheese.

I guess it's really a question of who can do it faster, as both the gestalt and the T1 can probably perform most challenges presented.

[Gnaeus]

This is what I come up with as a first try. It does not assume incarnate, shadowcaster, wilder, or truenamer, all of which would no doubt help a lot. Also, I am away from books, and I know that I am missing some ACFs that could have replaced duplicate class abilities. Also, I am not an expert on Psionics, and I know next to nothing about MoI, so I'm sure there is some stuff I am underexploiting. Also, while it took me several hours, that was mostly skimming optimization handbooks. If I were to actually play one, I think I could do much better. Here Goes

Level 5 T4G (Tier 4: Adept, Barbarian (Spirit Lion, Whirling Frenzy, Trapkiller), Hexblade (Dark Companion), Marshal, Ranger (arcane hunter), Rogue (Spell Reflection, Mimic, Disruptive Attack), Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage
Tier 5: Expert, Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier), Healer, Knight, Monk, Ninja (I don’t have the Rokugan one), Paladin (Drakkensteed Mount), Soulknife, Swashbuckler
Tier 6: Samurai,
Other: Divine Mind (Knowledge Mantle), Dragon Shaman (Copper) (Shamanic Invocation), Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Soulborn)
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12(14), Cha 13+1=14
Initiative +8 (+1 Dex, +1 scout, +4 Improved Initiative, +2 Marsha Aura)
AC 16 (Dex +1, Wis +2, Ninja +1, Divine Mind Aura +1, Swashbuckler Dodge Bonus +1)
Fort Save +4 (Base) +0 (Con) +2 (Grace) +2 Great Fortitude+1 (Scout)=+9 (11 v. spells/spell likes)
Reflex Save +4 (Base) +1 (Dex) +2 (Divine Grace) (+1 Swashbuckler Grace)=+8 (10 v. spells/spell likes)
Will Save +4 (Base) +2 (Wis) +2 (Grace) = +8 (10 v. spells/spell likes)
Power Points: 4 (Divine Mind) 7 (Lurk) 6 psychic rogue (do these stack? Does a stat add to them?)
Ki points: 4 (Ghost Step) Turn Attempts: 5 Knights Challenge 4/day, Hexblade curse 3/day
Detect Magic, 3d6 Eldrich Blast, Spider Climb, 2d6 acid breath 30’line at will
Lay on Hands (Paladin) 10 points
Sudden Strike +3d6, Sneak Attack +3d6 Skirmish +2d6, +1AC,
Favored Enemy: Undead +2, Arcanists +4, Smite Evil 2/day +2 to hit/+5 damage, Smite Opposition 2/day, +2 hit +5 damage, Kiai Smite 1/day +2 hit +2 damage, Insightful Strike (+1 damage on finessable weapons)
Mind Blade (Short Sword): To hit +8(+5 BAB, +1 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement) Damage 1d6+4 (+1 str, +2 insightful strike, +1 enhancement) (+1d8 Psychic strike)
Mind Blade (Bastard Sword): To Hit +8 (+5 BAB, +1 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement) Damage 1d10 +2 (+1 str, +1 enhancement) (+1d8 Psychic Strike)
Eldrich Glaive: Touch attack: To Hit +6 (+5 BAB, +1 Str) Damage 3d6

HP 39 (12+6.5*4+1 (Dragontouched), DR 1/Cold Iron
Skills:
Diplomacy 8 ranks +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Cha) +6 Beguiling Influence+2 Aura = +21
Intimidate 8 ranks +2 (Cha)+6 Beguiling Influence +2 Aura, +3 Skill Focus Intimidate= 21
Hide 8 Ranks +1 (Dex)+3 Skill Focus+2 aura=14
Move S 8 ranks +1 (Dex)+2aura = 11
Search 7 ranks +1 (Int) +1 Dragontouched +2 aura =+11
Bluff 1 rank +2 Cha +6 Beguiling Influence +2 aura=+11
UMD 8 ranks +2 (Cha) +2 aura(Can Take 10 from Warlock)=+12
Spot 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 (Dragontouched)
Listen 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 Dragontouched)
Concentration 8 ranks + 0 (Con) =8 (12 for casting defensively)
Know (Religion) 5 ranks +2 (Int) +2aura=9Sense Motive 1 ranks +2 (Wis)=3
Heal 1 rank +2 (Wis) +3 (Skill Focus)=6
Jump 1 rank +1 (Dex) +4 Ninja+2aura=8
Spellcraft 4 +2 (Int) +2 (Aura) =8
Ride 4 +1 (Dex) +2 (Aura) =7
Knowledge Skills (untrained)=1 (Int) +1 (Divine Mind Aura)+2 marshal aura=+4
Class Abilities : Trapfinding (CA Ninja), Divine Grace (Divine Mind), Psychic Aura (Defense gives +1 AC, +1 Knowledge checks to friendlies within 15 feet), Cleanse Fear (Healer), Cleanse Paralysis (Healer), Cleanse Disease (Healer), Aura of Courage (Paladin), Divine Health (Paladin), Detect Evil (Paladin), Bulwark of Defense (Knight), Vigilant Defender (Knight), Free Draw of Mind Blade, Steal Spell Effect, Steal Energy Resistance, Steal Spell-like Ability, Steal Spell (2nd), Dark Companion, Mettle, Evasion (Scout, Monk), Trapfinding (spellthief, scout, monk), Mimic (Rogue), Poison Use (Ninja), Fast Movement (Scout, Monk), Trackless Step (Scout), Uncanny Dodge (Scout), Improved Uncanny Dodge (Barbarian), Trapsense (Rogue), Trapkiller (Barbarian), Pounce (Barbarian), Whirling Frenzy (Barbarian), Grant move action 1/day (Marshal), Lurk Augments 6/day (basically +1d6 sneak attack or +3d6 sneak attack for 4 power points on next attack as a swift), Shape Soulmelds

Marshal Auras: Motivate Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma,
Major Marshal Auras: Motivate Ardor (+1 damage), Resilient Troops (+1 Saves)
Draconic Auras: Vigor, Energy Shield, Presence, Senses
Powers: Divine Mind: Call To Mind (Spend 1 minute to reroll a failed Knowledge check at +4)
Lurk: 3 level 1s, 2 level 2s (I can’t access the list)
Psychic Rogue:L1 Detect Secret Doors, Empathy, Catfall
L2 Psychic Knock
Spells: Healer: L1: Speak With Animals, Sanctuary x2, Protection From Evil x2, Goodberry
L2 Calm Emotions, Cure Mod Wounds (2d8+7)x2, Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness
L3: Close Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse
Ranger:L1 Snipers Shot Paladin: L1 Grave Strike
Spellthief spells (1/day): Enlarge Person, Golemstrike
Hexblade spells (1/day): Unseen Servant, Distract Assailant
Adept Spells: L1: Bless, Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist
L2: Mirror Image, Web
Invocations: Eldrich Glaive, See The Unseen, Swimming the Styx, Beguiling Influence (from Dragon Shaman)
Warmage Advanced Learning: Persistent Blade

Feats:
L1 Fighter bonus Feat: Power Attack. Weapon focus (soulknife), Imp unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple (Monk), EWP Bastard Sword (samurai), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Marshal), Track (Ranger), Human feat: Dragontouched Level 1 Feat: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
L2 Skill Focus (Hide)(Dragon Shaman), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Fighter Bonus:Martial Study Shadow Blade Technique, Ranger Combat Style Feat: Two Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Heal) (Healer), Mounted Combat (Knight)
L3 Incarnum Feat (Soulborn, out of my league here, need help), Endurance (Ranger), Level 3 feat: Craft Wondrous Items, Skill Focus Intimidate (Zhentarim Fighter)
L4 Fighter Bonus Feat Martial Stance: Island of Blades, Scout Bonus Feat:Improved Initiative
L5 Combat Casting (Hexblade), Great Fortitude (Knight)

Ranger Pet: Wolf
Paladin Mount:Drakkensteed 10 hours/day
Adept Familiar: Raven (Will aid another for another +2 on social skills)

Periapt of Wis +2. Bracers of Entangling Blast x2.


So here is what I learned:
1. Diplomancy is pathetically easy for him. Also Intimidate
2. 5 is a bad level. 6 would have been radically stronger for several reasons
3. Damage is also pathetically easy, but it comes more from precision than chargepounce than I had suspected. Fortunately, he has gravestrike, vinestrike, and golemstrike, and multiple ways to make precision damage stick. Also, lots of smiting. In combat, I expect to either see a battlefield control stance with Enlarge +eldrich glaive+Combat Reflexes, or Whirling Frenzy Skirmish Tactics using invisibility for sneak attack, or just warmage blasting with entangling blast from the mount. If a target approaches, he drops the glaive and quicksummons his soul blade.
4. Movement modes are a non-issue. At Will Water Breathing, Swim Speed, and Spider Climb + a flying mount at level 5.
5. As expected, sensory modes also good. At will darkvision, See invisible. Good detection abilities
6. As awesome as he is solo, he is even more brutal in a party. His auras seem impressive. I'm not really sure exactly how some of them stack (I know he gets a major and a minor, and that Draconics count as Major, but can he get + init from both, from example? And is the Divine mind aura totally separate?
7. As expected, he needs nothing to operate but a stat bonus to Wisdom. He could VoP in a heartbeat.
25 Point buy. He's pretty MAD, so a higher point buy would help him. I only took Create Wondrous Item as a Utility power. I wasn't sure what was strongest at 3. Maybe Arcane Disciple.

Most basic charge damage is 2 attacks for (1d6+4+2d6(skirmish)+3d6(Island of blades from mount) x2, or about 48 if both attacks hit. Goes up with Frenzy, smite, augmentation, or ninja invisibility (to add Sudden Strike).

Edit: Minor changes corrected:

[Irk]

Admirable considering you were away from certain sources, and decided on to use certain ones that would've been extremely helpful.

It appears that low levels bring out a win for the gestalt, unless we use the elven domain versatile spellcaster thing.

[Jack_Simth]

Assuming something to do with dragonwrought, but...
Pretty sure it's a reference to the theoretical optimization exercise that pretty much trumped all other theoretical optimization exercises before it, namely pun-pun. They eventually got the build down to level 1.

[Irk]

I hear a lot of people saying that 'they got the build down to level one' when referring to Pun-Pun, but in the original, he obtains manipulate form at level one too. The only difference is that the latest version uses paladin, making pazuzu far more likely to grant the wish. The later levels of the original just added more options that manipulate form would apply to.

[Coidzor]

Pretty sure it's a reference to the theoretical optimization exercise that pretty much trumped all other theoretical optimization exercises before it, namely pun-pun. They eventually got the build down to level 1.

I think he would have said Pun-Pun if he was talking about Pun-Pun, though it'd be a little bit silly to bring up pun-pun in this context. What he said was using one of the Sovereign Archetypes that grants Cleric casting to make a Dragonwrought Kobold get access to the cleric list using its warmage casting which is far below what Pun-Pun offers anyway.

[Heliomance]

I hear a lot of people saying that 'they got the build down to level one' when referring to Pun-Pun, but in the original, he obtains manipulate form at level one too. The only difference is that the latest version uses paladin, making pazuzu far more likely to grant the wish. The later levels of the original just added more options that manipulate form would apply to.

No he didn't. I think the very first version didn't come online until level 17 or so. The first version that became widespread and well known happened at level 5, using MoMF shenanigans to turn into a Sarrukh. No wishes or gates involved at all.

[Piggy Knowles]

IIRC, the original Pun Pun was a level 12 egoist.

[Irk]

My mistake, all of you are correct. I misread this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) thinking that the first version shown was the original, while the one below was the first iteration put forth by this author. My apologies.

[Seerow]

This is what I come up with as a first try. It does not assume incarnate, shadowcaster, wilder, or truenamer, all of which would no doubt help a lot. Also, I am away from books, and I know that I am missing some ACFs that could have replaced duplicate class abilities. Also, I am not an expert on Psionics, and I know next to nothing about MoI, so I'm sure there is some stuff I am underexploiting. Also, while it took me several hours, that was mostly skimming optimization handbooks. If I were to actually play one, I think I could do much better. Here Goes

Level 5 T4G (Tier 4: Adept, Barbarian (Spirit Lion, Whirling Frenzy, Trapkiller), Hexblade (Dark Companion), Marshal, Ranger (arcane hunter), Rogue (Spell Reflection, Mimic, Disruptive Attack), Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage
Tier 5: Expert, Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier), Healer, Knight, Monk, Ninja (I don’t have the Rokugan one), Paladin (Drakkensteed Mount), Soulknife, Swashbuckler
Tier 6: Samurai,
Other: Divine Mind (Knowledge Mantle), Dragon Shaman (Copper) (Shamanic Invocation), Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Soulborn)
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12(14), Cha 13+1=14
Initiative +8 (+1 Dex, +1 scout, +4 Improved Initiative, +2 Marsha Aura)
AC 16 (Dex +1, Wis +2, Ninja +1, Divine Mind Aura +1, Swashbuckler Dodge Bonus +1)
Fort Save +4 (Base) +0 (Con) +2 (Grace) +2 Great Fortitude+1 (Scout)=+9 (11 v. spells/spell likes)
Reflex Save +4 (Base) +1 (Dex) +2 (Divine Grace) (+1 Swashbuckler Grace)=+8 (10 v. spells/spell likes)
Will Save +4 (Base) +2 (Wis) +2 (Grace) = +8 (10 v. spells/spell likes)
Power Points: 4 (Divine Mind) 7 (Lurk) 6 psychic rogue (do these stack? Does a stat add to them?)
Ki points: 4 (Ghost Step) Turn Attempts: 5 Knights Challenge 4/day, Hexblade curse 3/day
Detect Magic, 3d6 Eldrich Blast, Spider Climb, 2d6 acid breath 30’line at will
Lay on Hands (Paladin) 10 points
Sudden Strike +3d6, Sneak Attack +3d6 Skirmish +2d6, +1AC,
Favored Enemy: Undead +2, Arcanists +4, Smite Evil 2/day +2 to hit/+5 damage, Smite Opposition 2/day, +2 hit +5 damage, Kiai Smite 1/day +2 hit +2 damage, Insightful Strike (+1 damage on finessable weapons)
Mind Blade (Short Sword): To hit +8(+5 BAB, +1 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement) Damage 1d6+4 (+1 str, +2 insightful strike, +1 enhancement) (+1d8 Psychic strike)
Mind Blade (Bastard Sword): To Hit +8 (+5 BAB, +1 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement) Damage 1d10 +2 (+1 str, +1 enhancement) (+1d8 Psychic Strike)
Eldrich Glaive: Touch attack: To Hit +6 (+5 BAB, +1 Str) Damage 3d6

HP 39 (12+6.5*4+1 (Dragontouched), DR 1/Cold Iron
Skills:
Diplomacy 8 ranks +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Cha) +6 Beguiling Influence+2 Aura = +21
Intimidate 8 ranks +2 (Cha)+6 Beguiling Influence +2 Aura, +3 Skill Focus Intimidate= 21
Hide 8 Ranks +1 (Dex)+3 Skill Focus+2 aura=14
Move S 8 ranks +1 (Dex)+2aura = 11
Search 7 ranks +1 (Int) +1 Dragontouched +2 aura =+11
Bluff 1 rank +2 Cha +6 Beguiling Influence +2 aura=+11
UMD 8 ranks +2 (Cha) +2 aura(Can Take 10 from Warlock)=+12
Spot 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 (Dragontouched)
Listen 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 Dragontouched)
Concentration 8 ranks + 0 (Con) =8 (12 for casting defensively)
Know (Religion) 5 ranks +2 (Int) +2aura=9Sense Motive 1 ranks +2 (Wis)=3
Heal 1 rank +2 (Wis) +3 (Skill Focus)=6
Jump 1 rank +1 (Dex) +4 Ninja+2aura=8
Spellcraft 4 +2 (Int) +2 (Aura) =8
Ride 4 +1 (Dex) +2 (Aura) =7
Knowledge Skills (untrained)=1 (Int) +1 (Divine Mind Aura)+2 marshal aura=+4
Class Abilities : Trapfinding (CA Ninja), Divine Grace (Divine Mind), Psychic Aura (Defense gives +1 AC, +1 Knowledge checks to friendlies within 15 feet), Cleanse Fear (Healer), Cleanse Paralysis (Healer), Cleanse Disease (Healer), Aura of Courage (Paladin), Divine Health (Paladin), Detect Evil (Paladin), Bulwark of Defense (Knight), Vigilant Defender (Knight), Free Draw of Mind Blade, Steal Spell Effect, Steal Energy Resistance, Steal Spell-like Ability, Steal Spell (2nd), Dark Companion, Mettle, Evasion (Scout, Monk), Trapfinding (spellthief, scout, monk), Mimic (Rogue), Poison Use (Ninja), Fast Movement (Scout, Monk), Trackless Step (Scout), Uncanny Dodge (Scout), Improved Uncanny Dodge (Barbarian), Trapsense (Rogue), Trapkiller (Barbarian), Pounce (Barbarian), Whirling Frenzy (Barbarian), Grant move action 1/day (Marshal), Lurk Augments 6/day (basically +1d6 sneak attack or +3d6 sneak attack for 4 power points on next attack as a swift), Shape Soulmelds

Marshal Auras: Motivate Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma,
Major Marshal Auras: Motivate Ardor (+1 damage), Resilient Troops (+1 Saves)
Draconic Auras: Vigor, Energy Shield, Presence, Senses
Powers: Divine Mind: Call To Mind (Spend 1 minute to reroll a failed Knowledge check at +4)
Lurk: 3 level 1s, 2 level 2s (I can’t access the list)
Psychic Rogue:L1 Detect Secret Doors, Empathy, Catfall
L2 Psychic Knock
Spells: Healer: L1: Speak With Animals, Sanctuary x2, Protection From Evil x2, Goodberry
L2 Calm Emotions, Cure Mod Wounds (2d8+7)x2, Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness
L3: Close Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse
Ranger:L1 Snipers Shot Paladin: L1 Grave Strike
Spellthief spells (1/day): Enlarge Person, Golemstrike
Hexblade spells (1/day): Unseen Servant, Distract Assailant
Adept Spells: L1: Bless, Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist
L2: Mirror Image, Web
Invocations: Eldrich Glaive, See The Unseen, Swimming the Styx, Beguiling Influence (from Dragon Shaman)
Warmage Advanced Learning: Persistent Blade

Feats:
L1 Fighter bonus Feat: Power Attack. Weapon focus (soulknife), Imp unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple (Monk), EWP Bastard Sword (samurai), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Marshal), Track (Ranger), Human feat: Dragontouched Level 1 Feat: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
L2 Skill Focus (Hide)(Dragon Shaman), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Fighter Bonus:Martial Study Shadow Blade Technique, Ranger Combat Style Feat: Two Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Heal) (Healer), Mounted Combat (Knight)
L3 Incarnum Feat (Soulborn, out of my league here, need help), Endurance (Ranger), Level 3 feat: Craft Wondrous Items, Skill Focus Intimidate (Zhentarim Fighter)
L4 Fighter Bonus Feat Martial Stance: Island of Blades, Scout Bonus Feat:Improved Initiative
L5 Combat Casting (Hexblade), Great Fortitude (Knight)

Ranger Pet: Wolf
Paladin Mount:Drakkensteed 10 hours/day
Adept Familiar: Raven (Will aid another for another +2 on social skills)

Periapt of Wis +2. Bracers of Entangling Blast x2.


So here is what I learned:
1. Diplomancy is pathetically easy for him. Also Intimidate
2. 5 is a bad level. 6 would have been radically stronger for several reasons
3. Damage is also pathetically easy, but it comes more from precision than chargepounce than I had suspected. Fortunately, he has gravestrike, vinestrike, and golemstrike, and multiple ways to make precision damage stick. Also, lots of smiting. In combat, I expect to either see a battlefield control stance with Enlarge +eldrich glaive+Combat Reflexes, or Whirling Frenzy Skirmish Tactics using invisibility for sneak attack, or just warmage blasting with entangling blast from the mount. If a target approaches, he drops the glaive and quicksummons his soul blade.
4. Movement modes are a non-issue. At Will Water Breathing, Swim Speed, and Spider Climb + a flying mount at level 5.
5. As expected, sensory modes also good. At will darkvision, See invisible. Good detection abilities
6. As awesome as he is solo, he is even more brutal in a party. His auras seem impressive. I'm not really sure exactly how some of them stack (I know he gets a major and a minor, and that Draconics count as Major, but can he get + init from both, from example? And is the Divine mind aura totally separate?
7. As expected, he needs nothing to operate but a stat bonus to Wisdom. He could VoP in a heartbeat.
25 Point buy. He's pretty MAD, so a higher point buy would help him. I only took Create Wondrous Item as a Utility power. I wasn't sure what was strongest at 3. Maybe Arcane Disciple.

Most basic charge damage is 2 attacks for (1d6+4+2d6(skirmish)+3d6(Island of blades from mount) x2, or about 48 if both attacks hit. Goes up with Frenzy, smite, augmentation, or ninja invisibility (to add Sudden Strike).

Edit: Minor changes corrected:

That MAD is killer. Have you tried going through the X stat to Y thread to try reducing that? It really seems like you should be able to completely eliminate Strength, between Swashbuckler and all the other stuff you have going on. Biggest issue is probably all of the different primary casting stats, because you want access to all of those lists simultaneously. Are there any shenanigans for shifting enough of those around to make it not-MAD?


Also how are you qualifying for power attack et al with 12 strength? Using rage for qualification or what?

[Gnaeus]

That MAD is killer. Have you tried going through the X stat to Y thread to try reducing that? It really seems like you should be able to completely eliminate Strength, between Swashbuckler and all the other stuff you have going on. Biggest issue is probably all of the different primary casting stats, because you want access to all of those lists simultaneously. Are there any shenanigans for shifting enough of those around to make it not-MAD?


Also how are you qualifying for power attack et al with 12 strength? Using rage for qualification or what?

Yeah, I noticed that when leveling up to 10. I just replaced it. Its such a small part of the overall damage machine I didn't really miss it.

And yes, you are probably right. It takes so long just to compile all the different class stuff I have just been trying to make decent picks, not laboring over what would be best. Many thanks to everyone who wrote good handbooks, and especially to Dictuum and his handbook of free D&D. The build could certainly be improved. I mean, I haven't even replaced all the redundant monk class features yet.

As an aside, I change my mind. The T1 is better. I don't mean stronger, or more versatile. But I can't imagine that anyone but me would actually be masochistic enough to go through the process of leveling this beast 20 times in a campaign. I should have insisted on doing it in Pathfinder. The advantage of using the PFSRD would more than compensate for the lost classes. Also, I can imagine spending 10 minutes every round making up my mind which swift action to use.

[DarkSonic1337]

That MAD is killer. Have you tried going through the X stat to Y thread to try reducing that? It really seems like you should be able to completely eliminate Strength, between Swashbuckler and all the other stuff you have going on. Biggest issue is probably all of the different primary casting stats, because you want access to all of those lists simultaneously. Are there any shenanigans for shifting enough of those around to make it not-MAD?


Also how are you qualifying for power attack et al with 12 strength? Using rage for qualification or what?

There's probably some monk or ranger alt feature that can grab it (Martial Monk?)

[demigodus]

Frankly with the uber-gestalt, I think you might be best off ignoring some of its class features as a way to reduce MAD-ness.

What casting works off of int?

Also, I would consider using Dynamic Priest a few times to reduce the number of casting stats...

[Seerow]

Frankly with the uber-gestalt, I think you might be best off ignoring some of its class features as a way to reduce MAD-ness.

What casting works off of int?

Healer Casting at least.

[Karnith]

What casting works off of int?
Keeping in mind the Tier 4 and below restriction, I think that only Magewright casting is Int-based, though you would get Int-based manifesting from Lurk and Psychic Rogue.

Healer Casting at least.
Healer casting is split-stat; highest spell level and bonus spells are determined by Wisdom, and save DCs by Charisma.

[Gwendol]

Uber-gestalt has no real weaknesses, and you only need so much to solve an encounter. Prepared casters may have the better tools but with a mediocre to outright bad chassis you can't afford many mistakes. Uber-gestalt always comes fully prepared.

[Jormengand]

Keeping in mind the Tier 4 and below restriction, I think that only Magewright casting is Int-based, though you would get Int-based manifesting from Lurk and Psychic Rogue.

Int-based uttering from truenamer!

(Though, I think Marshal can change that? Someone said they could.)

[Karnith]

(Though, I think Marshal can change that? Someone said they could.)
Marshal can get you (and nearby allies) your Charisma bonus to Int-based skills, of which Truespeak is one.

[Jormengand]

Marshal can get you (and nearby allies) your Charisma bonus to Int-based skills, of which Truespeak is one.

Niiiiice. Which means that you're not quite so MAD, even just as a TN (though what the hell kind of truenamer actually uses utterances which allow saves, huh? Huh?)

[Coidzor]

Niiiiice. Which means that you're not quite so MAD, even just as a TN (though what the hell kind of truenamer actually uses utterances which allow saves, huh? Huh?)

The kind that can't taste ice cream?

[Jormengand]

The kind that can't taste ice cream?

But I thought that no truenamers could taste ice cream until 20th level?

Does that mean that 20th-level truenamers stop using save-or-X abilities?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm voting t1. The t4 would get...warmage and healer casting, which isn't very good at all - though I'm not super familiar with the healer's list. If they have some good defensive spells the character might stand a chance, but 'sides that I don't think any t4 has effective defenses against a t1 offense. It'd be trivial, probably.

Well, Gate is pretty good, and Healer has that(for free, even). And you can mostly fix the SAD issue via magical buffs(you don't need all those spell slots) and polymorphing into a gold dragon. You are also going to have great saves and great hit die, so that's a reduction in needed stats that your T1 class needs to devote resources to.

I'd pick gestalt T3s over a T1, but T1 vs all T4s is more challenging. Ysee, what makes a T1 a T1 is all the options. You pile *enough* low tier classes on the pile, and you start to have a roughly equivalent assortment of options on tap at any one point in time.

Gestalting all T4s may not get you to being the best of the T1s, but I feel comfortable saying it puts you in T1 turf. I play at very high op levels sometimes, and you can do horrific things in gestalt if you don't mind complexity. I'm pretty comfortable saying that I'd have arbitrarily large numbers of spells prepared if I wished to play at that level. I've discussed previously how to prep arbitrarily large quantities of spells known, and given access to that many spell lists, it would be fairly trivial to use Extra Spell, etc to scoop up additional spells, prepare them an arbitrary number of times, then Chaos Shuffle the feat as needed.

Truenamer is also underrated. Not a ton of variety is it's biggest weakness, but in a gestalt example like this? Goes away.

I also observe that you would have a *lot* of class granted feats to chaos shuffle around. This is a major limiting factor on many broken combos...feeding ridiculous amounts of feats into a single char is kind of awesome.


As long as the charisma of the tier 4 gestalt is equal to the int of the wizard, saving throws means all the wizard's spells that require a save have a flat 5% chance of working.

Nah, there's a luck feat for that. Treats natural 1s as natural 20s. Given the feat surplus of the gestalt char, may as well nab it, especially because it helps with the prereqs for a 1/day avoid death....and another related luck feat lets you reroll init, which, if we're going by straight caster duel principles, matters.

Personally, I'd rather play the T4 gestalt, because it'd be a MUCH more fun build.

[Coidzor]

But I thought that no truenamers could taste ice cream until 20th level?

Does that mean that 20th-level truenamers stop using save-or-X abilities?

As I recall it's just a significant risk of losing one's ability to taste ice cream, though playing from 1-20 might make that outcome approach or reach certainty, I suppose.

Well, if the stories are to be believed, 20th level Truenamers only ever use their Gate-equivalent...

[Jormengand]

Well, if the stories are to be believed, 20th level Truenamers only ever use their Gate-equivalent...

*Casts conjunctive gate to get a solar.*
*Makes Solar 1 gate in Solar 2.*
*Makes Solar 1 burn wish and miracle*
*Makes Solar 2 gate in Solar 3.*
...
*Makes Solar 49386431 gate in Solar 49386432*
*DM throws DMG at truenamer's player.*
*Truenamer dies.*

Good times. :p

[Augmental]

Personally, I'd rather play the T4 gestalt, because it'd be a MUCH more fun build.

It would also be a lot more complicated than a tier one class. :smallwink:

[AmberVael]

I think in the end I'd go for the gestalt. I'm not convinced that it has more high end power than one of the iconic tier ones, (without extra optimization, that is), but it is incredibly more durable and honestly it just seems really hard to get wrong. In the end I think it is just a far more reliable option, one that will contribute more readily and frequently than the tier one casters, which is what really matters. I dunno if I'd call it tier one- I'd rather call it something like Tier 3 Plus.

The major drawback to it is really just keeping everything you have in mind. There's so much of it that it is easy to forget what you can do. And that, I think, is the telling part. Even a wizard would be envious of the sheer breadth of abilities the tier 4 gestalt has access to at all times.


What casting works off of int?
I made a list of the casting stats (and similar abilities) in this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16675414&postcount=70)

Wisdom and Charisma are the clear frontrunners. Int is pretty lousy, honestly.


It would also be a lot more complicated than a tier one class. :smallwink:

That's saying something.

[schoklat]

Factotum [...]

That's solid performance, but well within the realm of what a number of good T3s can do. Just not the curbstomp or absolute effects T1s have available.
Just as comparison, if a Wizard really wants to sneak, he stacks Invisibility+Fly+Nondetection... Available by level 5, and fools almost anything (esp if he can stay out of those 30ft Blindsense range), and that without the need of any rolls.

You can argue that Factotum gathers some tricks over its career, and it gets a smidgen of the S/W list each day, so you could make an argument of it getting into low T2, around the area where a FS is mucking around.
But even a regular Sorc built with the same expertise should be able to move much more.


This is what I come up with as a first try.

Cheers for all the work you put in, definitely interesting to see.

Just a question... The raw combat numbers seem rather unimpressive (hit, AC, ...) What tech do you employ to keep hitting / not get hit yourself / apply those big SA dice every full-attack?

[Gnaeus]

I can't claim to be on the optimization level where tier 1s have an arbitrary # of spells prepared. I wouldn't call that TO, because there are clearly games that run that way, but when I say I think T4g is stronger in play than a T1, I mean a T1 operating on some approximation of their spells/day chart modified by a casting stat in the 20s-30s, with good spells prepared. I consider this mid-op, but Tippy might call it low. If someone else wants to build a higher op T4G, they are welcome.

Similarly, re action economy, it seems to me that the T4g beats the T1s at the optimization level that I see in action economy. T1 cast+quicken spell+familiar or companion will lose to t4g+healer pet+familiar+mount+ AC (particularly since the familiar gets his saves and BAB). This discounts minions, but I don't know how to calculate an arbitrary # of planar bindings vs an arbitrary # of diplomanced "friends". I am aware of tricks like Arcane Fusion, but I think that stuff usually comes on line in the high level play arena between 13 and 17 where I think we mostly agree that T1s hold an edge but before the T4G starts mimicking T1s via Gate abuse.

Could we agree on a list of below T4 classes? I was using the one posted earlier in thread, but more keep emerging (like Magewright). I feel like I am shooting at a moving target. Should I include Truenamer?

[AmberVael]

Could we agree on a list of below T4 classes? I was using the one posted earlier in thread, but more keep emerging (like Magewright). I feel like I am shooting at a moving target. Should I include Truenamer?

It feels a bit big headed, but I would suggest my own list. Maybe the one you were talking about? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16675414&postcount=70)

I stuck with this list because it doesn't include the more controversial classes like Incarnate/Totemist, and because it doesn't venture into setting specific or more obscure material. I also eschewed Truenamer just on the basis that it is an odd case (and honestly, unnecessary- you've got plenty of other stuff to work with).

I thought this was a list pretty much everyone could both agree on and understand/reference, which seems useful for a discussion like this.


Edit: In other news, I'm vaguely trying to compile a sort of spell list for the tier four gestalt, just to demonstrate what it is capable of in that vein.

[Gnaeus]

Thanks Amber, thats the one I was using. But people keep bringing up Truenamer, Shadowcaster was mentioned, now Magewright. A couple others came up as questionable.

[Scow2]

I think the T4 Gestalt gets launched into Tier 1 not because any of its component classes have "Campaign nukes", but between them all, the class features that would otherwise be disparate can combine together to start making campaign nukes faster than a Tier 1 can stockpile them.

[Kennisiou]

If we're really going with, like everything here then Sohei, Lurk, PsiRogue, Shadowcaster, Soulborn, Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind, Jester, Death Master, and Battledancer should definitely be on that list (Lurk through Divine Mind were already on the other entry, which is where the ones I added would show up, since they're all tier 4-6 but none of them are really used enough for people to have an agreed-upon tier for them).

I guess Jester could be considered, like, the worst ever T3 class since they have bard casting, but that's basically it. Bard casting and then their class features are all awful and situational to the point of being non-existent. Death Master could also potentially be a T3 class, considering that it's basically just Dread Necromancer but worse and Dread Necro is high T3, but I really, really feel like Death Master and Jester are just T4 by nature of being completely outdone by their T3 counterparts (similar to why Rogue and Psirogue are T4 by nature of Beguiler and factotum being in T3).

Truenamer is t4 or below for sure, even with gate access. It comes online too late to really count much for tiering and by that point T3 has their own impressive tricks that truenamer is simply matching, not really surpassing.

[Gnaeus]

I think the T4 Gestalt gets launched into Tier 1 not because any of its component classes have "Campaign nukes", but between them all, the class features that would otherwise be disparate can combine together to start making campaign nukes faster than a Tier 1 can stockpile them.

I don't think it is T1, but I don't think that was the question. I don't think # of campaign nukes has any bearing on what is a better class. I think that a "better" class could more accurately be described as one which can successfully navigate more and/or stronger encounters, of a kind likely to be faced by an adventuring party, where advance knowledge of threats is possible but not guaranteed, ideally in the company of other murder hoboes.

[Seerow]

Thanks Amber, thats the one I was using. But people keep bringing up Truenamer, Shadowcaster was mentioned, now Magewright. A couple others came up as questionable.

I really can't see Shadowcaster showing up as Tier 4. That one is at least tier 3 just from a once-over. Magewright I'd include if you're including the Adept. Truenamer you can probably ignore, even if you did gestalt it in you'd gain nothing worth really mentioning until level 20. It's just not worth even sacrificing the skill points for.


Personally I'd knock Duskblade down into Tier 4 as well (I never really heard a convincing argument for it being better than anyone else in the tier 4 range, much less on an equal playing field with the tier 3s. As someone who's seen a Duskblade and a Warblade side by side in the game game, the Duskblade is not on the same level at any point in the game), but trying to re-tier things is probably getting a bit too far outside the intent of the thread.

[AmberVael]

If we're really going with, like everything here then Sohei, Lurk, PsiRogue, Shadowcaster, Soulborn, Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind, Jester, Death Master, and Battledancer should definitely be on that list (Lurk through Divine Mind were already on the other entry, which is where the ones I added would show up, since they're all tier 4-6 but none of them are really used enough for people to have an agreed-upon tier for them).

I'd call Shadowcaster too contested to keep it in. I've seen people call it anything between tier 2 and tier 4, and each tier by someone whose rules mastery I'd trust more than my own. Like much of Tome of Magic, it is weird.

Battledancer, Death Master, Jester, as far as I can tell, are from the Dragon Compendium? Suffice to say I haven't really heard of them before, and Dragon is not exactly the highest rated source (even if the compendium is somewhat more regarded), so leaving them out seems advisable.

Sohei is a 3.0 class from adapted setting material- I've never seen it used or much referred to, so it also seems advisable to leave out.

Everything else was on my list.


Truenamer is t4 or below for sure, even with gate access. It comes online too late to really count much for tiering and by that point T3 has their own impressive tricks that truenamer is simply matching, not really surpassing.
Probably, but given that it is technically untiered, kind of an odd case, and there are so few people who really have good experience with how it works, and it doesn't seem like it would add much to the gestalt, it just seems better to leave it out. What little it might add to the discussion really isn't worth it.

[Jormengand]

Truenamer you can probably ignore, even if you did gestalt it in you'd gain nothing worth really mentioning until level 20.

- At-will fly
- No-save-just-stop-flying utterance.
- No-save-just-stop-moving utterance.
- Dispel anything. I don't care if Karthus cast it, I can dispel it with a DC 16 truespeak check.
- Basically infinite healing.
- 3d6 damage at level 1.
- No-save instantaneous abilty which makes anyone you like ethereal.
- Ability that lets you attack ethereals, instantaneous duration.
- At-will cure/inflict negative levels and ability damage.
- Allow ally to re-roll save against any effect.
- Utterance which can free a subject from the effects of just about any mind-control thing.
- Utterance which gives -5 to AC and saves, and doesn't allow a save.
- Potion tile trick, if you're desperate.
- Thinaun trick, if you're really really desperate.


Probably, but given that it is technically untiered, kind of an odd case, and there are so few people who really have good experience with how it works, and it doesn't seem like it would add much to the gestalt, it just seems better to leave it out. What little it might add to the discussion really isn't worth it.

Funny, really, how the tier list explicitly states that it is T4 or below.

[Ghost Nappa]

The only problem with picking the T4G, is that if you aren't LG, you lose your Paladin abilities.

[Augmental]

Death Master could also potentially be a T3 class, considering that it's basically just Dread Necromancer but worse and Dread Necro is high T3, but I really, really feel like Death Master and Jester are just T4 by nature of being completely outdone by their T3 counterparts (similar to why Rogue and Psirogue are T4 by nature of Beguiler and factotum being in T3).

The Death Master is less like an inferior Dread Necromancer and more like an inferior Wizard, looking at its spell list - it gets spells like Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Mind Blank, and Shapechange. It feels a lot like a tier 3 class to me.

[Lans]

- Thinaun trick, if you're really really desperate.


Which trick is this?



I really can't see Shadowcaster showing up as Tier 4. That one is at least tier 3 just from a once-over.

A big detriment to shadow caster is how its casting is done leaves it either spread thin or just good at 1 thing, till later levels.

Another one that I've seen as T4 is the Wilder, with the argument that it is not versatile for T3 and with it perhaps lacking the power to be T2


Personally I'd knock Duskblade down into Tier 4 as well (I never really heard a convincing argument for it being better than anyone else in the tier 4 range, much less on an equal playing field with the tier 3s. As someone who's seen a Duskblade and a Warblade side by side in the game game, the Duskblade is not on the same level at any point in the game), but trying to re-tier things is probably getting a bit too far outside the intent of the thread.

Duskblade is a low Tier 3 because its kind of like a warmage with more utility. Flight, sensory powers, dimension hop effects

[Togo]

I don't think it is T1, but I don't think that was the question. I don't think # of campaign nukes has any bearing on what is a better class. I think that a "better" class could more accurately be described as one which can successfully navigate more and/or stronger encounters, of a kind likely to be faced by an adventuring party, where advance knowledge of threats is possible but not guaranteed, ideally in the company of other murder hoboes.

This. The gestalt would be a more effective, more useful, more fun character to use in any game I'm actually likely to play.

[Jormengand]

Which trick is this?

This requires some heavy RAW abuse. There's a 'namer utterance which allows you to change a weapon into a special material. If you kill someone with a thinaun weapon, my understanding of the trick is that their soul is trapped in the weapon, until someone breaks the thinaun weapon. Wait for the sword to turn back to steel, and throw it into the nearest active volcano. Their soul is now trapped in a volcano, until someone goes back to Mount RAW to forge The One Greatsword, gets another truenamer to turn it back to thinaun, and then smashes it.

But yeah, this is partly in response to "Use the Locate city bomb!" so it's allowed to be cheesy.

[Seerow]

Another one that I've seen as T4 is the Wilder, with the argument that it is not versatile for T3 and with it perhaps lacking the power to be T2

Duskblade is a low Tier 3 because its kind of like a warmage with more utility. Flight, sensory powers, dimension hop effects

I want to know what kind of crack you're on that Wilder (access to full 9th level psionic powers, with same PP available as a Psion, and ability to augment above his level, even if he only gets 11 known) has a serious argument for Tier 4, meanwhile Duskblade who gets restricted to 5th level spells, and a FAR more limited list in terms of things it can accomplish is justified as tier 3.

As for the Duskblade's utility, he gets Swift Fly (1 round for 1 spell slot), and his only enhanced perception ability is See Invisible, useful for sure but it's not like he's getting Blindsight, True Seeing, or really any detects at all. He gets some short range dimension hopping, which is a nice utility, but enough to push him into tier3? The Adept spell list has more utility on it!



A big detriment to shadow caster is how its casting is done leaves it either spread thin or just good at 1 thing, till later levels.


If Dimension Hopping and See Invisible is enough to push the Duskblade into Tier 3, the Shadowcaster is rocking at least that same level. No way it falls as far as Tier 4.

[Gnaeus]

Mkay. I will add Magewright (once I am near books, since I can't find it online) since it seems clearly T4 but has stuff to add. Shadowcaster and the other incarnum classes are just too likely to be tier 3. I think Truenamer would qualify, and the T4g would make an awesome Truenamer what with skill mastery and auras and all, and it would bring something useful to the table. However, a quick scan of Faq's guide tells me that unlike the incarnum or psychic classes, adding Truenamer will require me to know way more about truenamers than I desire to know. So the Truenamer fans out there can just pretend it is there with no feats spent on it but max ranks in true naming + skill mastery + the marshal cha>int aura.

[SinsI]

That's solid performance, but well within the realm of what a number of good T3s can do. Just not the curbstomp or absolute effects T1s have available.
Just as comparison, if a Wizard really wants to sneak, he stacks Invisibility+Fly+Nondetection... Available by level 5, and fools almost anything (esp if he can stay out of those 30ft Blindsense range), and that without the need of any rolls.
See Invisibility is available by level 3, lasts 10min/level, can be made permanent, and makes your one-trick pony useless. Most animals and monsters have Smell, so they won't be fooled either.

Nothing beats a good Hide/Move Silently check.

[Gnaeus]

The only problem with picking the T4G, is that if you aren't LG, you lose your Paladin abilities.

Barbarian/Monk is a bigger problem, since there are non LG paladin variants. I feel that banning multiple classes because T4g is impossible alignment wise just defeats the question. We know you can't make a gestalt of all tier 4 classes by RAW, because gestalt doesn't work that way. That doesn't answer the question of how strong it is. I'm assuming LG just because that seems to include the most classes.

[Scow2]

The T4G's alignment is "Crazy Awesome" - it counts as whatever alignment is most beneficial for all classes.

So it's a Paladin of ValorFreedomTyrannySlaughter on top of everything else.

[Gnaeus]

Just a question... The raw combat numbers seem rather unimpressive (hit, AC, ...) What tech do you employ to keep hitting / not get hit yourself / apply those big SA dice every full-attack?

Good question. I have several answers:
1: None of the numbers is fully assembled. Fighting that Dragon, or another big boss type, you would be looking at those numbers +charge +flank (island of blades) +invisibility+frenzy, for example, and that's a bit more impressive.

2. You do what a Tier 1 does when their trick does not work. Use another trick. Cant hit it's AC? Eldrich Glaive is a touch attack (with a much better to hit than most wizards/warlocks/sorcerers etc can muster for their touch attacks). Don't like that? Diplomacy is high enough that you have a good shot there. Or move to a range that is good for you and blast. Or withdraw, hide and buff.

3. T1s don't always walk around with the highest numbers either. HP wise, he is very close to a normal CoDzilla, with better peripheral defenses (a little DR, a little fast healing, great saves/evasion/mettle). I would expect a cleric 5 to have better AC, but much worse attacks. Druids often have low AC at this level, and they haven't even gotten Natural Spell yet. Wizards have worse saves and hp, and while a wizard 5 CAN get a very high AC, they won't likely be walking around with one. We will both be casting our mirror image, right?

It is only 25 pb. A SAD caster with an 18 starting casting stat would only have 14 con, 12 dex if they tanked all their other stats.

[schoklat]

Cheers.
Question I asked was specifically on "clubbing dragon to death", cause those can still hurt a lot.

If I would do it melee as a Wizard, I wouldn't start without at least Alter Self, Mage's Armor and Shield up. Most likely opening with a CDG from a Scythe (no need for proficiency here) setup while that dragon sleeps.


See Invisibility is available by level 3, lasts 10min/level,

Because you have Sorcerers doing shifts for night's watch on every tower, right.


can be made permanent,

Level 10 & XP vs Level 3 (or Level 5 for the whole combo)


Most animals and monsters have Smell, so they won't be fooled either.

Scent = 60ft range
And GL finding me just because you know "something" is there for a few secs.


Nothing beats a good Hide/Move Silently check.

A bad roll does. Scrying does. Traps do. Etc...
You need to not f*** up every try... VS a caster running a proper combo, the enemy has to work hard and hope for the caster making tactical mistakes to even be allowed to roll, let alone succeeding.

[Scow2]

Hide/Move silently is laughably easy to beat: Scent, Blindsense(Or any variant), blindsight, Detect Magic, Arcane Sight... etc.

Unless, of course, your character isn't wearing any magical items without a snuffed aura.

[eggynack]

Hide/Move silently is laughably easy to beat: Scent, Blindsense(Or any variant), blindsight, Detect Magic, Arcane Sight... etc.

Unless, of course, your character isn't wearing any magical items without a snuffed aura.
The character is running darkstalker, if I'm not mistaken. That cuts out the first three things completely. The latter two might work reasonably well though.

[Gnaeus]

Cheers.
Question I asked was specifically on "clubbing dragon to death", cause those can still hurt a lot.

If I would do it melee as a Wizard, I wouldn't start without at least Alter Self, Mage's Armor and Shield up. Most likely opening with a CDG from a Scythe (no need for proficiency here) setup while that dragon sleeps.

Well, yes. Of course, if every combat starts with the enemy sleeping, Rogue is the strongest class in 3.5.

Lets examine this dragon encounter. Its kind of in your favor, since its still kind of a schroedinger's wizard, but whatever. I am assuming something like a shivering touch combo, since that is the normal wizard dragonkilling method.

Step 1. Prep for dragon's lair. This is kind of a wash. I am vastly better at information gathering than you, whether by searching areas of attacks or securing cooperation of survivors, but your Knowledge Arcana is no doubt much better. Lets say we both figure out it is a dragon lair. You prep dragon spells, I don't need to, but I pick up a resist energy or 2.

Now, one of several things will happen now:
1. dragon gets jump on us. I have my default auras and stance, you have your Mage Armor. Dragon is dragon, but maybe it used a potion of displacement or a wand of scintillating scales or mirror image. Chances are you die here. Charred or frozen. If equal CR Dragon decides on a ranged duel, I have good chances (excellent saves and evasion) but it depends on exactly what buffs it picked. If it jumps me probably bad for me. I certainly think I am better off than a wizard here.

2. All Parties enter buffed. Your AC is probably around 26 (mage armor 4, shield 4, Alter self 6, dex 2) Still probably bad, depending. I am now functionally immune to breath, you are almost immune. If you can get in a hit with a maximized shivering touch or similar, you win. If you can't hit its touch AC or you hit an image, you lose. Dragons have such high attack bonuses that your AC isn't much of a defense. I think my best chance here is to talk to it, make a diplomacy roll, combined with some swift invisibility. If I can just talk to it for a few minutes, the odds shift dramatically.

3. All Parties enter unbuffed, basically even fight. You still have a good chance. If you win init, that Shivering Touch wins. Otherwise, probably not. I like this one better than #2. Without buffs up, my initiative mod is certainly much higher than its is, and its AC isn't enough to stop me from pounding it. I might not kill it, but with my invisibility up I probably win on round 2, if not round 1.

4. We enter buffed, dragon unbuffed. Clear win for you. No way to avoid shivering touch here. I probably stomp it also.

5. Your scenario. Dragon is asleep, we are sneaking up on it. Lets make it a tougher dragon to compensate, maybe a CR +2 or 3. Odds are, we both win. Your strategy works. But it works better for me than it does for you. My move silently is better, so I am less likely to wake it up on the way in. And I am more likely to notice any magical or non magical traps it left to keep murderhoboes with scythes away. Once the CDG happens, it is equally dead.

I think I come out at least as well as a typical level 5 wizard in most of these dragonkilling events. However, my better stealth skills and perception skills make it more likely that I will get one of the better encounter scenarios than you will.

Also note that if our dragon is one of the CR 5 or 6 types that spellcast, it is likely to hurt you more than me. Favored Enemy: Arcanist will come into play.

[Incanur]

I think the T4- gestalt would do better until at least level 9 in even the most optimized plausible campaign (i.e. no Pun-Pun, etc.). A T3 gestalt would be utterly ridiculous.

[rmnimoc]

The wizard is a better arcane caster than the T4G, but the T4G comes close.
The cleric is a better divine caster than the T4G, but the T4G comes close.
The druid is a better superpowered hippy thing than the T4g, but the T4G still comes close.
Really this comes down to the question of who is better:
The guy who places gold in an Olympic event, or the guy who places silver in all of them?
Personally I don't think it is much of a challenge.

Or you could look at it this way:
Wizards are cool, Druid are cool, Clerics are cool, but the T4G is the magical psychic dragon-ninja-pirate-monk-medic-barbarian-samurai-knight-general-paladin, with a pact with inhuman forces to throw raw eldritch might around. He's got more tricks up his sleeve than Batman, with insane levels of willpower, fortitude, and reflex, capable of healing the dying with a mere touch, I'd have trouble imagining someone who sounds more awesome.

[TuggyNE]

Wizards are cool, Druid are cool, Clerics are cool, but the T4G is the magical psychic dragon-ninja-pirate-monk-medic-barbarian-samurai-knight-general-paladin, with a pact with inhuman forces to throw raw eldritch might around. He's got more tricks up his sleeve than Batman, with insane levels of willpower, fortitude, and reflex, capable of healing the dying with a mere touch, I'd have trouble imagining someone who sounds more awesome.

Well, now we have a name for this hypothetical class: The Marty Stu. :smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

Well, now we have a name for this hypothetical class: The Marty Stu. :smalltongue:

Nah, that incarnation needed Plot Armour and an infinite number of retroactive clones to be effective to be effective, and I'm reasonably sure thus guy can make do.

[aleucard]

Well, now we have a name for this hypothetical class: The Marty Stu. :smalltongue:

That name is reserved for one of the most obnoxious DMPC's of all time. This guy sounds more like MacGyver, or depending on who is playing it, MagGruber. Either way, he's going to be winning more fights equipped with exactly ****all than most will backed up by entire armies. He'll probably be able to fight that army himself also. The bookkeeping will be an absolute nightmare, but it'll be worth it if you like watching madness.

[Gwendol]

Yup, this is a different beast than a tricked out wizard, but rather not less capable.

[Coidzor]

- Ability that lets you attack ethereals, instantaneous duration.

Funny, really, how the tier list explicitly states that it is T4 or below.

So, what, you spammably and permanently make anything you like able to attack ethereal creatures forever barring the interference of another character with truenaming?

Partially the borked mechanics and having to cheez it to make the DCs after low levels, IIRC.


The only problem with picking the T4G, is that if you aren't LG, you lose your Paladin abilities.

IIRC Hexblades are required to be nongood at start like Dread Necromancers (though IIRC, neither is prevented from, or penalized for, *becoming* good). Also, Healers have some annoying restrictions to boot.

I imagine there's probably some others that are just slipping my mind, though I suspect Divine Mind has something annoying about it.

Edit: No, wait, Hexblades stop being Hexblades if they become Good. And a variant Paladin to be Non-Good still probably wouldn't play nice with the Healer component.

[Scow2]

Which is why is alignment is Crazy Awesome, and completely divorced from both axis while encompassing all of them.

[Drachasor]

Regarding alignment problems, I think in the spirit of this analysis, we should assume alignment doesn't matter and all class abilities are maintained.


The wizard is a better arcane caster than the T4G, but the T4G comes close.
The cleric is a better divine caster than the T4G, but the T4G comes close.
The druid is a better superpowered hippy thing than the T4g, but the T4G still comes close.

I'm not seeing how this is so. The abilities a T4G has to end a battle in one standard action are far, far more limited than a wizard or cleric. Protective spells are also far, far more limited. Same with mobility spells.

Overall the difference is pretty huge.

[Scow2]

He has plenty of ways to end a battle in one round (Inasmuch as a wizard can win a battle in one round by merely applying a nasty debuff): As soon as he shows up, it's over. He doesn't need defensive abilities because the sum effect of his class features are better than the sum effect of a T1's spells.

Most tier 4 characters have a cool ability that is worthless/weak on its own, and comes online too late to synergize with another two T4's class features that would make it excellent. No T4 class on its own has a Campaign Nuke, but between them all, they can make their own.

[Drachasor]

He has plenty of ways to end a battle in one round (Inasmuch as a wizard can win a battle in one round by merely applying a nasty debuff): As soon as he shows up, it's over. He doesn't need defensive abilities because the sum effect of his class features are better than the sum effect of a T1's spells.

Most tier 4 characters have a cool ability that is worthless/weak on its own, and comes online too late to synergize with another two T4's class features that would make it excellent. No T4 class on its own has a Campaign Nuke, but between them all, they can make their own.

I'm not seeing how he can end a battle in one round nearly as well as a T1 caster. His debuffs will have worse saves and come later. He has a much smaller selection. His defensive abilities ARE worse even considering the class abilities. At 9th level a Wizard can put his mind in another body all day. The T4G can't beat that or numerous other defenses.

If you want to say it can make its own campaign nuke using multiple abilities, then give an example. I am not seeing it.

Edit: Let me put this another way. They will can have a pretty good AC. They will have good saves (plus Mettle and Evasion). They are immune to disease and have some minor stuff like that. There are plenty of other attacks they don't have any special defenses to nor can get them (such as grappling, unless I am missing something). They are probably less likely to have caster-level increasing things, since they need to spend resources on magical weapons and perhaps armor.

[Frozen_Feet]

It gets all weaponry it needs as part of its class features. Soulknife, Samurai and Warlock are underwhelming on their own, but when you have baker's dozen of other whole classes, they become synonyms with free swag. Same goes for pets and mounts.

As for grappling? It has Fighter's whole selection of feats to pick from in addition. If you allow ACFs, it already has all other fighter feats it could want from Ranger, Knight, Barbarian, Monk and Samurai. Might as well optimize for grappling too, if you can't find any way to avoid it from your giant pile of class features.

[Gnaeus]

T4G v2.0 Level 5

Level 5 T4G (Tier 4: Adept (Religious)(Spell Domain), Barbarian (Spirit Lion, Whirling Frenzy, Trapkiller), Hexblade (Dark Companion), Marshal, Ranger (arcane hunter), Rogue (Spell Reflection, Mimic, Disruptive Attack), Scout (Dungeon Specialist), Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage, Magewright
Tier 5: Expert, Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier), Healer, Knight, Monk, Ninja (both), Paladin (Drakkensteed Mount), Soulknife, Swashbuckler
Tier 6: Samurai,
Other: Divine Mind (Knowledge Mantle), Dragon Shaman (Copper) (Shamanic Invocation), Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Soulborn, Truenamer
Str 8, Dex 13+1 =14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14=14(16)
Initiative +12 (+2 Dex, +1 scout, +4 Improved Initiative, +3 Marshal Aura, +2 Speed of Darkness (R Ninja))
AC 21 (Dex +2, Wis +2, Ninja +1, Divine Mind Aura +1, Swashbuckler Dodge Bonus +1, Mage Armor +4)
Fort Save +4 (Base) +0 (Con) +3 (Grace) +2 Great Fortitude+1 (Scout)=+10 (12 v. spells/spell likes)
Reflex Save +4 (Base) +2 (Dex) +3 (Divine Grace) (+1 Swashbuckler Grace)=+10 (12 v. spells/spell likes)
Will Save +4 (Base) +2 (Wis) +3 (Grace) = +9 (11 v. spells/spell likes)
Power Points: 9 (Divine Mind) 12 (Lurk) 11 psychic rogue
Ki points: 4 (Ghost Step) Turn Attempts: 5 Knights Challenge 0/day, Hexblade curse 3/day
Detect Magic, 3d6 Eldrich Blast, Spider Climb, 2d6 acid breath 30’line at will
Lay on Hands (Paladin) 15 points
Sudden Strike +3d6, Sneak Attack +3d6 Skirmish +2d6, +1AC,
Favored Enemy: Undead +2, Arcanists +4, Smite Evil 2/day +3 to hit/+5 damage, Smite Opposition 2/day, +3 hit +5 damage, Kiai Smite 1/day +3 hit +3 damage, Insightful Strike (+2 damage on finessable weapons)
Mind Blade (Short Sword): To hit +9(+5 BAB, +2 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 enhancement) Damage 1d6+2 (-1 str, +2 insightful strike, +1 enhancement) (+1d8 Psychic strike)
Eldrich Glaive: Touch attack: To Hit +8 (+5 BAB, +2 Dex+1 Weapon Focus) Damage 3d6

HP 39 (12+6.5*4+1 (Dragontouched), DR 1/Cold Iron
Skills:
Diplomacy 8 ranks +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Cha) +6 Beguiling Influence+3 Aura = +23
Intimidate 8 ranks +3 (Cha)+6 Beguiling Influence +3 Aura, +3 Skill Focus Intimidate= 23
Hide 8 Ranks +2 (Dex)+3 Skill Focus+3 aura=16
Move S 8 ranks +2 (Dex)+3 aura = 13
Search 7 ranks +2 (Int) +1 Dragontouched +3 aura =+13
Bluff 1 rank +3 Cha +6 Beguiling Influence +3 aura=+13
UMD 8 ranks +3 (Cha) +3 aura(Can Take 10 from Warlock)=+14
Spot 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 (Dragontouched)
Listen 8 Ranks +2 (Wis) +1 Dragontouched)
Concentration 8 ranks + 0 (Con) =8 (12 for casting defensively)
Know (Religion) 5 ranks +2 (Int) +2aura +3 Knowledge Focus (Truenamer)=9
Sense Motive 1 ranks +2 (Wis)=3
Heal 1 rank +2 (Wis) +3 (Skill Focus)=6
Jump 1 rank +2 (Dex) +4 Ninja+3 aura=10
Spellcraft 4 +2 (Int) +2 (Aura) =8
Ride 4 +2 (Dex) +3 (Aura) =9
Knowledge Skills (untrained)=2 (Int) +2 (Divine Mind Aura)+6 marshal aura=+6
(or take away 8 ranks from otherwise maxed skills and add Truespeaking 8+2(int) +3 (aura)=+13
Class Abilities : Trapfinding (CA Ninja), Divine Grace (Divine Mind), Psychic Aura (Defense gives +1 AC, +1 Knowledge checks to friendlies within 15 feet), Cleanse Fear (Healer), Cleanse Paralysis (Healer), Cleanse Disease (Healer), Aura of Courage (Paladin), Divine Health (Paladin), Detect Evil (Paladin), Bulwark of Defense (Knight), Vigilant Defender (Knight), Free Draw of Mind Blade, Steal Spell Effect, Steal Energy Resistance, Steal Spell-like Ability, Steal Spell (2nd), Dark Companion, Mettle, Evasion (Scout, Monk), Trapfinding (spellthief, scout, monk), Mimic (Rogue), Poison Use (Ninja), Fast Movement (Scout, Monk), Trackless Step (Scout), Uncanny Dodge (Scout), Improved Uncanny Dodge (Barbarian), Trapsense (Rogue), Trapkiller (Barbarian), Pounce (Barbarian), Whirling Frenzy (Barbarian), Grant move action 1/day (Marshal), Lurk Augments 6/day (basically +1d6 sneak attack or +3d6 sneak attack for 4 power points on next attack as a swift), Shape Soulmelds, +2 AC when standing next to a wall (Scout)

Marshal Auras: Motivate Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma,
Major Marshal Auras: Motivate Ardor (+1 damage), Resilient Troops (+1 Saves)
Draconic Auras: Vigor, Energy Shield, Presence, Senses
Powers: Divine Mind: Call To Mind (Spend 1 minute to reroll a failed Knowledge check at +4)
Lurk: L1 Burst, Dimension pocket, Conceal Thoughts
L2: Elfsight, Animal Affinity
Psychic Rogue:L1 Detect Secret Doors, Empathy, Catfall
L2 Psychic Knock
Spells: Healer: L1: Speak With Animals, Sanctuary x2, Protection From Evil x2, Goodberry
L2 Calm Emotions, Cure Mod Wounds (2d8+8)x2, Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness
L3: Close Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse
Ranger:L1 Snipers Shot Paladin: L1 Grave Strike
Spellthief spells (1/day): Enlarge Person, Golemstrike
Hexblade spells (1/day): Catsfeet, Distract Assailant
Magewright Spells: L1 Grease x2, Unseen Servant
L2 Arcane Lock, Locate Object
Adept Spells: L1: Mage Armor x3
L2: Mirror Image, Silence
Invocations: Eldrich Glaive, See The Unseen, Swimming the Styx, Beguiling Influence (from Dragon Shaman)
Warmage Advanced Learning: Persistent Blade

Feats:
L1 Fighter bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (Touch). Weapon focus (soulknife), Imp unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple (Monk), EWP Bastard Sword (samurai), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Marshal), Track (Ranger), Human feat: Dragontouched Level 1 Feat: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
L2 Skill Focus (Hide)(Dragon Shaman), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Fighter Bonus:Martial Study Shadow Blade Technique, Ranger Combat Style Feat: Two Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Heal) (Healer), Mounted Combat (Knight)
L3 Incarnum Feat (Soulborn, out of my league here, need help), Endurance (Ranger), Level 3 feat: Craft Wondrous Items, Skill Focus Intimidate (Zhentarim Fighter)
L4 Fighter Bonus Feat Martial Stance: Island of Blades, Scout Bonus Feat:Improved Initiative
L5 Combat Casting (Hexblade), Great Fortitude (Knight)

Headband of Charisma +2
Ranger Pet: Wolf
Paladin Mount:Drakkensteed 10 hours/day
Adept Familiar: Raven (Will aid another for another +2 on social skills)


Changes: Added magewright, part of truenamer, Rokugan Ninja. Found a power list for Lurk.
Adept gets a domain out of Eberron. (Our Friend worships Aureon, which should give him Knowledge Mantle for Divine Mind, Spell Domain for Adept, and still be in line with Paladinness). Now his 15 hours/day of Mage armor make his AC pretty decent.
Dumped strength for better dex and mental abilities. Insightful strike and weapon finesse make up for it.
Swapped out power attack for Weapon focus: Touch.

Related Q. Does anyone know what happens when you get bonus incarnum feats but don't have a 13 con so you can't qualify for any?

Still working on the L10 version

[dspeyer]

T4G has some options we haven't considered yet...

Arcane Disciple

This feat is generally every fixed-list arcane caster's favourite source of versatility, and a gestalt warmage should be no exception. Want teleport? AD(Travel). True Seeing? Knowledge. Shapechange? Animal. Most of the really good spells are on some domain list somewhere.

The one-domain-slot rule is a problem, but domain spontaneity gets around it. That requires Turn Undead, but paladin provides. Nightsticks are cheap, right?

So, how many feats can we spend on this? Well, if we're allowed Dark Chaos Shuffle, we're good. If not, we're still not too badly off. A lot of the feats a normal character needs can be managed from our bonuses, leaving our base feats for this. Plus rogue, and maybe human paragon.

Psychic Chirurgery

We have a full manifester level as a lurk. We're just short on powers known. NPC 17th level psion(telepath)s can be hired for money to fix that problem for us. For low level powers (that are still useful at high level if augmented) this is actually pretty cheap.

So, how much money can we spend on this? Well, I can't find the rules for Aristocrat wealth, but since it's the entire point of the class I'm guessing it's a lot. If that doesn't help, at least Soulknife and Monk let us save a bit on weapons and armor.

Use Magic Device

Warlock. Money. See above.

Our Pets

We have a paladin mount, a healer companion, an adept familiar and a ranger animal companion. The paladin mount is probably the most interesting, since we can choose a wide variety of creatures without spending a feat. Not sure what that's good for exactly, but it's got to be something.

[tonberrian]

Warmage plus Use Magic Device plus runestaffs equals wizard-equivalent casting. That's game.

[Snowbluff]

Monk's Evasion is redundant. Replace it with Invisible Fist?

Also, you should have another redundant Evasion and more than one Trap Sense. it's good to see spell reflection, but I think it should have Spell Sense, too.

@Tonberrian: Warlock does UMD mastery by itself. Now, Warmage + Versatile Spellcaster + Magical Training would make it great. I like Bloodline Feats, personally. Lower OP. :smallwink: