Putting together a Necrotic Cyst-based BBEG

[Nettlekid]

For a newbie campaign I'm planning, I've decided that the BBEG will be someone who favors the Necrotic Cyst line of spells. The BBEG will have several subBEGs around the land, spreading Necrotic Cysts into the population and subtly controlling the domain. What I've yet to figure out is what the BBEG's main plan is once so many people are infected, vulnerable to Necromancy, and capable of being controlled by Necrotic Domination/Necrotic Tumor. I also don't know what race the BBEG and/or their minions should be.

I've sort of thought about having the BBEG be a Vampire Lord, and the subBEGs being either Vampires or Vampire Spawn, but I'm not sure if an undead creature can use the Mother Cyst feat. The prereqs to Mother Cyst don't state that you must be alive, but since Necrotic Cyst can only be used on the living, I wasn't sure. Also it begs the question as to why the BBEG doesn't just turn all the peasants they plan to Dominate into either Vampire Spawn or thralls via the Vampire's own Domination ability.

So maybe Undead isn't the way to go, but it's hard to be anything not-Undead and yet still so Necromancy-focused. I'm a fan of the "'Good' guy who's the secret ringleader of the undead horde, whose closest (undead) minion appeared to be the BBEG," but I don't know why that setup would be in place here. I'm also a fan of the "'Good' guy thinks the aforementioned setup is what's going on, but the closest minion is the real BBEG who's been using the 'Good' guy."

Either way, there are two main points I don't have solidified yet. What the BBEG's race and motive is (I feel like those two are tied together. Like a Vampire's motive would be blot out the sun, a Lich's motive might be harvest souls, etc) and what the organization of the trickle-down is. Will the BBEG be the one Dominating everyone, and the subBEGs just keep them in line? Or does the BBEG have the subBEGs under their control somehow, and the subBEGs exert direct control over the infected townsfolk?

Any suggestions on how to weave this all together?

[Baroknik]

On my phone right now so I can't write too much, but...

On the topic of "Why would a vampire not directly dominate/thrall his minions?" line, remember this: a lot of people don't like dealing with undead. A city of mortals is much more normal for trade/travel. Also, since necrotic cysts only work on living creatures, they are mobile scry and die IEDs. Adventurers near your people? Well scry on your infected follower and then Necrotic Explode him. Now the PCs may be infected and have to fight off a skulking cyst too!

Also, Necrotic tumor domination a is permanent AND not blocked by magic circle -- a HUGE boon for the dominator, no safe zone!

[Xervous]

Nothing says undead can't take mother cyst...

So it appears you need a big bad evil goal for your BBEG, lets call him Carl for simplicity's sake. The first question you should ask yourself is whether or not Carl is serving a higher power.

If Carl worships the god of undeath and dying horribly, maybe he's planning something that will catapult him into higher ranks of the god's servants.

If Carl adheres to an ancient cult that is trying to locate and free the Devourer of All that's Good and Holy from its ancient tomb, then you've got those motives to work with.


If not, then we must consider other motivations for Carl. Perhaps he simply wants to conquer the world and is biding his time until he reaches a critical mass of entumored victims before he launches his attack. Or maybe he's content to sit on the sidelines, using his unwilling minions as spies or to subtly intervene in events when he so desires.

Perhaps Carl has an archnemesis who also happens to be a very powerful undead/long lived magic user. For as long as he can remember, they've been waging a secret war against each other using the people of the land as their pawns. Of course, the nemesis and/or their means aren't socially acceptable either so that explains why they haven't unveiled themselves and roused the masses. Bonus points if Carl and his nemesis only know each other as their "Stage Identities" or "Superhero Identities" or what have you, this could lead to some interesting player options like investigation and perhaps blackmail (if they're foolish enough to try).

[Nettlekid]

Nothing says undead can't take mother cyst...

I know, but between the fact that Necrotic Cyst can't be used on an undead, and that like, what special benefit would an undead have by having a lump of undead flesh inside it, I was skeptical. Still, I guess no reason he can't.



So it appears you need a big bad evil goal for your BBEG, lets call him Carl for simplicity's sake. The first question you should ask yourself is whether or not Carl is serving a higher power.

If Carl worships the god of undeath and dying horribly, maybe he's planning something that will catapult him into higher ranks of the god's servants.

If Carl adheres to an ancient cult that is trying to locate and free the Devourer of All that's Good and Holy from its ancient tomb, then you've got those motives to work with.


I don't think this will be the case. Since this is for a newbie campaign, I'd like to have the BBEG be a sort of Sauron-ish type (though less strong) who a lot of people think is unbeatable, and the PCs see it that way too, but then by beating his minions and getting stronger they can take him. To introduce an Elder Evil-esque figure means that the PCs would feel sort of compelled to beat THAT, which they probably couldn't.


If not, then we must consider other motivations for Carl. Perhaps he simply wants to conquer the world and is biding his time until he reaches a critical mass of entumored victims before he launches his attack. Or maybe he's content to sit on the sidelines, using his unwilling minions as spies or to subtly intervene in events when he so desires.

Perhaps Carl has an archnemesis who also happens to be a very powerful undead/long lived magic user. For as long as he can remember, they've been waging a secret war against each other using the people of the land as their pawns. Of course, the nemesis and/or their means aren't socially acceptable either so that explains why they haven't unveiled themselves and roused the masses. Bonus points if Carl and his nemesis only know each other as their "Stage Identities" or "Superhero Identities" or what have you, this could lead to some interesting player options like investigation and perhaps blackmail (if they're foolish enough to try).

I would really like to go some kind of FMA route, where the entumored victims are used to activate some great power across the whole country, like strategic activations of Schemas or something, but I don't know what to do with that. I guess maybe the Necrotic Dominated/Necrotic Tumored civilians could be Vampire Fodder, and the BBEG turns them all into vampires shortly before his big move, but not before (because like Baroknik said, undead can be troublesome to work with). Maybe a sort of Hellsing thing. Waves of weak vampires storming the world. Probably to somehow blot out the sun, because that's usually what Vampires go for.

So I guess the BBEG will be a Vampire (Lord). The question here is: Do I make the subBEG(s) a Vampire (Spawn) too, or perhaps make them living creatures that are all yearning to become part of the Vampire Lord's inner circle of the immortal undead?

The archnemesis thing is also an interesting approach. I plan to have the PCs meet a classic mysterious old man who potentially has great power. Right now I have him as an Amethyst Dragon in disguise, though I could change it if need be. Since Gem Dragons are kind of neutral, I was unsure about how best to work him into the BBEG's plans. So suggestions there would be appreciated. Just now I had the thought that if the BBEG's plan is to turn all of humanity into subjugated immortal vampires, the Amethyst Dragon's plan might be to turn humanity into free-willed immortal Elans, which the BBEG views as more disgusting than his own vampires. So that could be a thing. Maybe. But maybe not.

This is kind of out of left field, but can anyone think of a reason that the Yuan-Ti would be involved in this? I want to have a Yuan-Ti Pureblood disguised as a human, tracking down clues parallel to the PCs, but I don't know...why he would care.

[Baroknik]

I personally like RL pop culture references/parody in my games (even in serious games, just more subtly). Why not make the subBBEGs a mixture of vamps/others? Have one of them named Belle who is in love with the BBEG and wants to be a vamp, James the tumored werewolf, etc..

As far as a yuan-ti pure blood goes, there are plenty of easy hooks. Maybe an abomination was infected or tumored, or perhaps eggs were stolen from his clutch. Even just conflicting interests for a single high-profile person of interest (both want to gain the ear of the same king). Yuan-ti are extremely misoxenotic (hate non-yuanti), so any story of conflicting interests could easily have one investigating the BBEG.

[Kraken]

Any time an important infected person might be captured, don't forget you can use necrotic termination on them to both thwart the PCs, and give their characters a sight to remember as they watch the process in horror.

[Nettlekid]

I personally like RL pop culture references/parody in my games (even in serious games, just more subtly). Why not make the subBBEGs a mixture of vamps/others? Have one of them named Belle who is in love with the BBEG and wants to be a vamp, James the tumored werewolf, etc..

As far as a yuan-ti pure blood goes, there are plenty of easy hooks. Maybe an abomination was infected or tumored, or perhaps eggs were stolen from his clutch. Even just conflicting interests for a single high-profile person of interest (both want to gain the ear of the same king). Yuan-ti are extremely misoxenotic (hate non-yuanti), so any story of conflicting interests could easily have one investigating the BBEG.

I thought about doing pop culture things, and I often do (I had a lot of fun Doctor Who references in a plane-hopping campaign I did), but since this is the first campaign for most people, I don't want to detract from the fantasy adventure feel.

As for the Yuan-Ti, I dunno, I'd like there to be some connected reason as opposed to just "he's there doing stuff." One of the first things I jumped to was that if the Vampire Lord blots out the sun then everything's going to be really cold, which the reptilian Yuan-Ti would hate, but in order for that to be his motive then he'd have to know basically everything about the BBEG's plot, which is information I don't want a low level NPC to have.


Any time an important infected person might be captured, don't forget you can use necrotic termination on them to both thwart the PCs, and give their characters a sight to remember as they watch the process in horror.

That's definitely true, although for a game starting at level 3 and going until who knows, making it clear that the BBEG casts 9th level spells right off the bat is a bit much. I think Infallible Servant works just as well.

Oh, I'm reminded. Most of the Necrotic spells are Medium-range, I think. What justification do I have for the Vampire Lord to be showing up in order to Necrotic Dominate or Necrotic Tumor someone?

[Kraken]

I forget which necrotic kill spell is which, there are lower level ones though.

As for him suddenly popping up, just use greater invisibility, and generally be a master of stealth, so that nobody even notices that he's planting tumors and so forth. Stealth is something that's probably a good idea for a vampire that wants to be very active in the world to be proficient at, regardless of circumstances.

[Baroknik]

Necrotic Tumor has a permanent duration if they fail the save. Combine with Necrotic Scrying and you have an extremely reliable security/information network. Use other spells to discreetly get in range if needed.

On a note from earlier your BBEG definitely does NOT want to be a necrotic cyst bearer, as it makes him vulnerable. The feat puts a Mother Cyst in you, which is not the same thing.

Also note that Fell Animate + Necrotic Eruption is lots of fun... Gives the players two nasties to fight at once after one of your lieutenants is near-death! (Craft Contingent spell on your infected Minotaur for this to happen and when they think they've won they get exploded on for damage + have to fight a skulking cyst and a zombie Minotaur!)

[Nettlekid]

I forget which necrotic kill spell is which, there are lower level ones though.

As for him suddenly popping up, just use greater invisibility, and generally be a master of stealth, so that nobody even notices that he's planting tumors and so forth. Stealth is something that's probably a good idea for a vampire that wants to be very active in the world to be proficient at, regardless of circumstances.

There are some direct damage lower level ones, true. There's the one that makes the target explode and infects a splash area with Necrotic Cyst. That's only level 5, so that would work. One thing, can a caster voluntarily do less damage with a spell? That spell does 1d6/level, up to 15d6, which would kill the commoners that the BBEG would want to infect.

And sure, he can be stealthy, but it sort of defeats the purpose of having minions everywhere if you have to actually go to the place yourself to get stuff done.


Necrotic Tumor has a permanent duration if they fail the save. Combine with Necrotic Scrying and you have an extremely reliable security/information network. Use other spells to discreetly get in range if needed.

On a note from earlier your BBEG definitely does NOT want to be a necrotic cyst bearer, as it makes him vulnerable. The feat puts a Mother Cyst in you, which is not the same thing.

Also note that Fell Animate + Necrotic Eruption is lots of fun... Gives the players two nasties to fight at once after one of your lieutenants is near-death! (Craft Contingent spell on your infected Minotaur for this to happen and when they think they've won they get exploded on for damage + have to fight a skulking cyst and a zombie Minotaur!)

I plan to use that aforementioned combo on most things. I think that, or even just the Scrying alone, is one of the key reasons that the BBEG will want to infect everyone he can with a Necrotic Cyst. That's also part of the reason that I'm leaning toward NOT making the subBEGs vampires, so they can harbor a Cyst and he can spy/dominate/explode them too.

I know that the BBEG doesn't want to have a Necrotic Cyst (and probably couldn't, if he will be a Vampire), but I was questioning the logic as to how a Mother Cyst had any effect, being undead flesh, which is all the undead creature is.

That's a pretty good idea. Fell Animate on its own is bad enough, but combined with Necrotic Eruption and it's pretty harsh indeed.

[Kraken]

Minions can spread the cysts. The lord probably only needs to swoop in to prevent fry a lieutenant that's about to talk.

[Baroknik]

Note that there is nothing against necrotic cysts existing in undead. They just can't be targeted as new hosts. Therefore, you could infect them before turning them.

I envision the direct minions of the vampire lord being thralls and lieutenants being cysted beings (knowing or unknowing). This means that the final push to destroy the BBEG is Castlevania while everything before is Alien.

[Nettlekid]

Note that there is nothing against necrotic cysts existing in undead. They just can't be targeted as new hosts. Therefore, you could infect them before turning them.

I envision the direct minions of the vampire lord being thralls and lieutenants being cysted beings (knowing or unknowing). This means that the final push to destroy the BBEG is Castlevania while everything before is Alien.

Eh, since all the other Necrotic _____ spells target a living host with a Necrotic Cyst, I'm going to say that having a Necrotic Cyst while being undead is pretty useless. You'd still be immune to the mind-control anyway. A Mother Cyst might have special stuff, so I'll say an undead can have it. Or I could have the BBEG commanding a living creature who's doing the dirty work for him. But that's unnecessary, I think.

Okay, so for example, the first kind of instance of the BBEG's web that the PCs will meet is a king's adviser. The adviser was spreading Necrotic Cysts within a city, and using Necrotic Domination on people like the King and Princess and others to keep them in line, though most of the time they were acting on their own. The Princess somehow managed to break free of the charm for a short while and became a Necropolitan so that she couldn't be controlled again. The PCs will meet the king, have to do a side quest, and then return to be given the real quest: Find the missing Princess. When they do, she'll reveal what the adviser's been doing, but she doesn't know the mastermind of the operation. Now, should that adviser be a Vampire (Spawn), or a humanoid thrall? If thrall, should she be Dominated or free-willed but loyal? Either way, she'll surely have an Infallible Servant spell on her.

[Doxkid]

Eh, since all the other Necrotic _____ spells target a living host with a Necrotic Cyst, I'm going to say that having a Necrotic Cyst while being undead is pretty useless. You'd still be immune to the mind-control anyway. A Mother Cyst might have special stuff, so I'll say an undead can have it. Or I could have the BBEG commanding a living creature who's doing the dirty work for him. But that's unnecessary, I think.

I understand why you would think that, but you are technically incorrect...or correct for the wrong reason. You can pick which one you want.

Necrotic Tumor and Necrotic Domination do not use the Mind-affecting descriptor at any point. That is exactly why it they are considered better, necromancy flavored, Dominate spells; the normal methods of becoming immune do not apply. Mind-Blank, for example, would be useless.

The reason it does not work when used against undead carrying Cysts is that the spell's targeting information specifically says "Living creature with necrotic cyst", much like every other spell from the feat (except for Empowerment which is a self-buff, Scying and Awareness).
---
Infecting undead-
The easiest way of infecting undead with Cysts is to either infect them before undead or to use Necrotic Eruption on something near the undead. The resulting explosion exposes all creatures nearby to the Effect of the base Necrotic Cyst spell, but not the spell itself.

The Effect of Necrotic Cyst is the stuff you want anyway, so that isn't a problem.
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BBEG stuff-
Half-Vampire (Found in Libris Mortis) is one of the better templates for a mid-level BBEG. By the base setup you can select a single special ability that is similar to, but weaker than, one of the major Vampire tricks; the Charming Gaze ability allows you to Charm Monster as many times as you want per day with a caster level equal to your Character level (DC is 10+half Character level +Charisma mod).

Charming Gaze is short range (25 +5 ft for every 2 levels) giving the BBEG a reason to be near people; he can work on two fronts, Charming people into working beside him temporarily and Necrotic Dominating people to serve him permanently. He's saving spell slots and mind control is frown at less than necromancy (both will get a spellcaster killed, but Necromancy ends with paladins and holy orders coming after you).
~~~~
Dread Necromancer is flavorful, but probably not the best idea for your BBEG; the limited magical abilities means you cant have him do many subtle things without a minion helping.

Instead consider making him a sorcerer. A Half-Vampire sorcerer of whichever race you consider appropriate. Half-Vamp only gives one special ability but you're DM so consider giving him all three powers.

The end result is a character than can hang out with Vampires and Ghouls and the like, but is not hampered by the things that stop normally stop those undead. If he's clever about it they might not even know he's still alive; he can fake-out his allies and enemies all at once.

[Nettlekid]

I understand why you would think that, but you are technically incorrect...or correct for the wrong reason. You can pick which one you want.

Necrotic Tumor and Necrotic Domination do not use the Mind-affecting descriptor at any point. That is exactly why it they are considered better, necromancy flavored, Dominate spells; the normal methods of becoming immune do not apply. Mind-Blank, for example, would be useless.

The reason it does not work when used against undead carrying Cysts is that the spell's targeting information specifically says "Living creature with necrotic cyst", much like every other spell from the feat (except for Empowerment which is a self-buff, Scying and Awareness).
---
Infecting undead-
The easiest way of infecting undead with Cysts is to either infect them before undead or to use Necrotic Eruption on something near the undead. The resulting explosion exposes all creatures nearby to the Effect of the base Necrotic Cyst spell, but not the spell itself.

The Effect of Necrotic Cyst is the stuff you want anyway, so that isn't a problem.
---
BBEG stuff-
Half-Vampire (Found in Libris Mortis) is one of the better templates for a mid-level BBEG. By the base setup you can select a single special ability that is similar to, but weaker than, one of the major Vampire tricks; the Charming Gaze ability allows you to Charm Monster as many times as you want per day with a caster level equal to your Character level (DC is 10+half Character level +Charisma mod).

Charming Gaze is short range (25 +5 ft for every 2 levels) giving the BBEG a reason to be near people; he can work on two fronts, Charming people into working beside him temporarily and Necrotic Dominating people to serve him permanently. He's saving spell slots and mind control is frown at less than necromancy (both will get a spellcaster killed, but Necromancy ends with paladins and holy orders coming after you).
~~~~
Dread Necromancer is flavorful, but probably not the best idea for your BBEG; the limited magical abilities means you cant have him do many subtle things without a minion helping.

Instead consider making him a sorcerer. A Half-Vampire sorcerer of whichever race you consider appropriate. Half-Vamp only gives one special ability but you're DM so consider giving him all three powers.

The end result is a character than can hang out with Vampires and Ghouls and the like, but is not hampered by the things that stop normally stop those undead. If he's clever about it they might not even know he's still alive; he can fake-out his allies and enemies all at once.

All of those are interesting thoughts. I'm not sure where I stand on the Necrotic Domination on non-Mind-Affecting thing (when it says "as dominate person," might that mean it inherits Dominate Person's tags?) but I probably won't end up using it in any case. It's kind of less fun to have the mid-bosses all being controlled rather than just minor evils in their own right.

Half-Vampire is so perfect, not for the BBEG, but for the subBEGs. Like, I was trying to decide "Ehh, Vampire Spawn is too insignificant, but Vampire is a bit much, and do I want to make them undead or not, ugh," and this is the perfect halfway point between all of those. They're still alive and can thus be affected by the Vampire Lord BBEG's use of Necrotic Tumor, but have the Vampiric flavor and all that, but can go outside and not be hindered by undead issues. Also the fact that Half-Vampires have one of three special abilities means that I can make three subBEGs, one with each power, leading up to the BBEG himself.

I think I'm going to go with the whole "BBEG is the real boss but has a living caster lackey doing the dirty work." I like the idea of a Vampire Lord being a monster more than a build with a template on top, though perhaps he'll have levels in some Tier 3 class like a ToB class to make a vampire fight more interesting. Meanwhile, perhaps the caster lackey is some totally unassuming character that the PCs have met previously. Maybe the lackey is being infrequently Dominated and doesn't even know they're complicit in the BBEG's plans.

I don't know for sure, but so far this newbie party has been leaning toward a largely noncaster party. One person I know for sure will be a Ranger. One was talking about a reluctant do-gooder, which I think he plans to make a Paladin or Crusader. And one is very adamant on Elven Shoemaker, which I've talked into being a Factotum. So TO-style caster mayhem isn't at all in my concerns.

[Irk]

There is a spell - among the most situational - that allows for the location of somebody with a necrotic cyst, so that ought to be taken into consideration.