Weapon choices

[CAHaugen]

My friends and I are starting a new campaign to test out some new Homebrew material from various sources. I am going to be playing the Tank and while building my character I ran into an issue. I was wanting to keep things somewhat balanced, so I need help deciding which Two-Handed Weapon to get and start putting in for my Class Abilities / Feats (Weapon Focus and such).

After debating, I've narrowed it down to two candidates. The problem I'm having is that I'm torn between the two.

A weapon known as "Earth Breaker" offers 2d6 (M) x3 (Bludgeoning). It is from Pathfinder's "The Inner Sea". The other weapon, more commonly known, is the Laurence Hammer at 1d12 (M) x2 (Bludgeoning and Piercing) from "Advanced Player's Guide".

The issue I'm concerning myself with isn't the difference between x2 or x3, but damage and types.

Both ultimately offer up to 12 damage. EB allows for 2-12 while LH offers 1-12, so EB gives slightly better odds as the lowest you can roll is a 2, not a 1. Realistically though, 1 point of damage rarely makes a difference in my opinion so this isn't the issue.

The issue is chances of rolling. Do you stand a higher chance rolling a greater value of damage from 2d6 or not? I don't know crud about math and statistics so I can't tell if 2d6 actually IS better than 1d12?

The other issue is that LH is both Bludgeoning and Piercing, while EB is only Bludgeoning. When it comes to Damage Resistance, a weapon with two types should be better than a weapon with one, correct?

My issue is that:

1.) I can't tell if there is an actual benefit to having 2d6 over 1d12 and
2.) Is having a weapon with two types really worth it?

Maybe I'm just nitpicking but I really don't want to build a character with Class Abilities and Feats that govern one weapon when it turns out I should have gone with the other weapon. I know in Player's Handbook II it gives you knowledge on how to change Feats, Abilities, hell even Races but I don't want to have to spend the time and the money doing so later on in the game. :smallannoyed:

[Hurnn]

mathematically, 2d6 does win out over the long hauls due to its average being 7 vs 6.5 on the d 12, also you have a bell curve which will get you more consistent damage. I cant think of a whole lot of creatures with blunt immunity off hand but as a general rule 2 types is better.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The distribution of rolls on a 2d6 will describe a bell curve with 7 at the peak.

It comes to roughly 1 in 6 rolls will come up 7 while the extremes, 2 and 12, will only come up about 1 roll in 36 each.




The distribution of rolls on a d12 is a flat line with each face having a 1 in 12 chance of coming up.





The long-and-short of it is that the 2d6 will offer more stable damage over the d12 but the d12 has a much better chance of getting both maximum and minimum damage values.

[eggynack]

I'd stick with the 2d6, especially on a dedicated melee character. You usually want consistency if you're good at a thing, and variance if you're just alright at it, because an average roll is sufficient for victory on the melee focused character, while a worse character needs the higher end of the spectrum. The increase in critical hit value is also relevant. I'd avoid weapon focus and like feats though. Those are usually a bad idea, unless you're taking them as a prerequisite for something.

[CAHaugen]

I'd avoid weapon focus and like feats though. Those are usually a bad idea, unless you're taking them as a prerequisite for something.

The reason I brought that up is because our DM is really wanting to get into true SRD formatting where you actually specify what you are using and what for;

Weapon Focus [Sword]
Power Attack [Dire Flail]
Weapon Finesse [Rapier]

Things of this nature. If we go that route I don't want to have everything be set up as [LH] and find out later on that it should have been [EB].

I know it's stupid and sometimes you just need to say "Screw the rules, I have green hair!" but hey, it is what it is.

[CAHaugen]

Otherwise, if I felt like going the game-breaking route (We have a campaign like this; Seriously our Tank is a Stone Giant with a +12 BAB Racial Trait; Dafuq), there is always this fun little badboy...

Ogre Maul
2d8 (M), 19-20, x2

It requires a base Strength of 20 to swing it, and if you strike a Medium or smaller character on a confirmed Critical it throws the opponent back 10 feet and deals an additional 1d10 damage.

Or;

Battering Axe
3d6 (M), x3
Which if you are a Large Character with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you can wield it one-handed; Imagine now putting Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Focus on this with a little Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Focus (To give an additional +2 to your Attack Rolls for a buffer). Damn.

But like I said, we are trying to not break the game this time...:smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

The reason I brought that up is because our DM is really wanting to get into true SRD formatting where you actually specify what you are using and what for;

Weapon Focus [Sword]
Power Attack [Dire Flail]
Weapon Finesse [Rapier]

Things of this nature. If we go that route I don't want to have everything be set up as [LH] and find out later on that it should have been [EB].

I know it's stupid and sometimes you just need to say "Screw the rules, I have green hair!" but hey, it is what it is.

Neither power attack nor weapon finesse require that you declare a single weapon to associate with them. PA works with -any- weapon that isn't a light, manufactured weapon and weapon finesse works for any light or natural weapon.

[TuggyNE]

The issue I'm concerning myself with isn't the difference between x2 or x3, but damage and types.

Both ultimately offer up to 12 damage. EB allows for 2-12 while LH offers 1-12, so EB gives slightly better odds as the lowest you can roll is a 2, not a 1. Realistically though, 1 point of damage rarely makes a difference in my opinion so this isn't the issue.

The issue is chances of rolling. Do you stand a higher chance rolling a greater value of damage from 2d6 or not? I don't know crud about math and statistics so I can't tell if 2d6 actually IS better than 1d12?

2d6 has superior averages (mean and mode) and superior variance for a PC. The fact that the critical multiplier is x3 is likely more important, but since that lands on the same side it's even better.


The other issue is that LH is both Bludgeoning and Piercing, while EB is only Bludgeoning. When it comes to Damage Resistance, a weapon with two types should be better than a weapon with one, correct?

Yes, but there are not many DR /piercing creatures out there so most of the time, even DR-wise, it's irrelevant.


Neither power attack nor weapon finesse require that you declare a single weapon to associate with them. PA works with -any- weapon that isn't a light, manufactured weapon and weapon finesse works for any light or natural weapon.

Weapon Finesse also works on several one-handed and even one or two two-handed weapons.

But yeah, there is no RAW sense in which 3.5 or PF require you to designate a weapon for Power Attack or Weapon Finesse to work on. Weapon Finesse used to, but that's a relic of 3.0, thankfully, and not mourned.

[eggynack]

The reason I brought that up is because our DM is really wanting to get into true SRD formatting where you actually specify what you are using and what for;

Weapon Focus [Sword]
Power Attack [Dire Flail]
Weapon Finesse [Rapier]

Things of this nature. If we go that route I don't want to have everything be set up as [LH] and find out later on that it should have been [EB].

I know it's stupid and sometimes you just need to say "Screw the rules, I have green hair!" but hey, it is what it is.
I'm not really sure what SRD formatting your DM is talking about, but as has been noted, weapon finesse and power attack do not currently require a weapon declaration. Anyway, my main point was that taking the weapon focus line is a bad idea, so as long as you're not taking that line, things should be fine. You should maybe consider running a warblade though, such that all of your feats don't become completely useless every time you want to use a different weapon. Also, separately, because warblades are awesome.

[CAHaugen]

But yeah, there is no RAW sense in which 3.5 or PF require you to designate a weapon for Power Attack or Weapon Finesse to work on. Weapon Finesse used to, but that's a relic of 3.0, thankfully, and not mourned.

I think the reason he believed them to be SRD rules is because in the books, when looking at the attacks of creatures, the Feats often had them listed as such.

For instance, the Gloura from Underdark lists it as:

Feats: Weapon Finesse [Light Mace]

Or how sometimes creatures with Natural Weapons are allowed Power Attack, so it will delegate which attack can be used:

Feats: Power Attack [Claw].

---

This makes me happy that this actually is not the case; I guess there was just confusion via the way SRD Stat Blocks were printed versus the actual current rules.

On a side note; Happy holidays everybody!:smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

I think the reason he believed them to be SRD rules is because in the books, when looking at the attacks of creatures, the Feats often had them listed as such.

For instance, the Gloura from Underdark lists it as:

Feats: Weapon Finesse [Light Mace]

Or how sometimes creatures with Natural Weapons are allowed Power Attack, so it will delegate which attack can be used:

Feats: Power Attack [Claw].

Underdark is 3.0 book, and while I can't think of a stat block that'd list "Power Attack [Claw]", that's either an error or a reminder (since you don't get to decide which of your attacks you apply PA to, it applies the penalty to all attacks, and the bonus to all attacks with weapons that qualify). And all natural weapons can be Power Attacked with.


This makes me happy that this actually is not the case; I guess there was just confusion via the way SRD Stat Blocks were printed versus the actual current rules.Which SRD would that be? A short glimpse at the official 3.5 one doesn't reveal anything out of the ordinary.



On a side note; Happy holidays everybody!:smallbiggrin:The same.

[madtinker]

I'd avoid weapon focus and like feats though. Those are usually a bad idea, unless you're taking them as a prerequisite for something.

I'm curious about this. Why is it a bad idea (assuming I have decided for certain on the character's weapon of choice)? What would you use instead to boost attack modifiers?

[Greenish]

I'm curious about this. Why is it a bad idea (assuming I have decided for certain on the character's weapon of choice)?The effects are fairly small, and only numerical (ideally, you'd want feats that allow you new options).


What would you use instead to boost attack modifiers?There are a fair number of options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144321), with Knowledge Devotion probably being the most often quoted one, and charge/flanking being the most often used ones.