fort save or dies

[geekintheground]

when should PCs start worrying about them?

[Slipperychicken]

Is this a normative question? If so, PCs should never need worry about such attacks, because they're bad for the game.

[Krobar]

When they start using them.

[geekintheground]

how about "save or suck"s? im curious because i'm working on a build whos fort saves are pretty abysmal. +7 base with a null con score at 20th level (necropolitan)

[Setra]

how about "save or suck"s? im curious because i'm working on a build whos fort saves are pretty abysmal. +7 base with a null con score at 20th level (necropolitan)
I'd be worried about those from level 1 personally.

[Urpriest]

If you're a Necropolitan, then you've got a much smaller range of Fort SODs and SOLs to worry about. I'd go down the Wizard list (where they're likely to appear earliest) and see when you first find something you want to worry about.

[Eldariel]

An easy example off the top of my head, Medusa is CR 7 and has its signature Petrifying Gaze (though it has a low DC, probably precisely because of its save-or-die nature). So fairly early.

I somewhat disagree with Slippery_Chicken's conclusion though: The game comes with built-in auto-succeeding counters to certain SoDs (Death Ward as the easiest option but many magic items and spells grant partial or whole immunity) and even death isn't that expensive so overall, there's little need to be overtly worried about save-or-dies.

The "prototype party" (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric) is pretty well-suited for dealing with them provided no scouting failures. And god knows an area where you might e.g. encounter Medusas will probably have stoned statues so you'll be well forewarned. If the party still chooses to press on, that's their choice and then they either have a way of dealing with the Medusas (such as fighting blind) or risk turning to stone.

Besides, D&D is a game where players can and will die. They also can be brought back to life if that's desired, or players can reroll if they prefer. Either way, save-or-die is hardly more dangerous than a Dragon's full attack (indeed, I'd expect a Dragon's full attack to have a higher chance of one-shotting a PC than a Finger of Death), and players across the party have access to a whole slew of stuff like Alter Fortune, Revivify and Last Breath to make death even less likely even on a failed save, so honestly, I'd say on average save-or-dies are less problematic than attacks.

[geekintheground]

cool. thanks guys, takes a load off my mind :) and i know PCs are born to die, but itd be nice to play one for more than 5 levels (the longest i've had one of mine survive thanks to poorly thought out combat strategies and lack of thinking in general)

[Zanos]

The fort save or dies I'd worry about as an undead creature are Glass Strike(SpC) and Disintegrate. Glass Strike is 7th, and Disintegrate is 6.

A spellblade weapon will protect you from Glass Strike, and Deflect Rays will protect you from disintegrate. Unless you have people wandering around with positoxins specifically hunting undead you should be immune to any of the other nasty fort save effects I can think of.

[Slipperychicken]

how about "save or suck"s? im curious because i'm working on a build whos fort saves are pretty abysmal. +7 base with a null con score at 20th level (necropolitan)

Any time they run into a spellcaster? Sleep and Color Spray are the bane of your existence at low levels.

If you're undead or don't have a Con score, you should be immune to most Fort save-based effects.

[Brookshw]

I generally don't start throwing them out until 8-12 and pretty sparringly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends on the lethality level you're comfortable with.

High lethality; worry about them from character creation onward.

Low lethality; worry about it when foreshadowing suggests something that has a SoD to worry about.

Default; cockatrice: fort save or petrified at CR 3.

[Slipperychicken]

Depends on the lethality level you're comfortable with.

High lethality; worry about them from character creation onward.

Low lethality; worry about it when foreshadowing suggests something that has a SoD to worry about. Do whatever you want. The GM isn't going to kill you.

Fixed that for 'ya.

[Eldariel]

Fixed that for 'ya.

Sounds like "no lethality" to me. I know plenty of scenarios where DM will pull some punches but not to the point of implausibility. So a third setting would be needed for "DM never kills you".

[Slipperychicken]

"DM never kills you".

Yeah, I played with that GM a few years back. He once ruled that Con damage doesn't alter your hit points, because that would have killed a PC. Heaven forbid a single PC ever die.

Imagine you declare an action. Without rolling, the GM describes the most fantastic success you could ever dream of. No plot to be found, it's just a power-fantasy, and you get a whole city as a playground. But when he wants you beaten, he asks for your HP total, he rolls in secret, and his favorite Mary Sue knocks you down to exactly 1 hit point.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fixed that for 'ya.

There's a difference between low lethality and no lethality.

For example; a game in which politics is a major point of the campaign and combat is entirely secondary or even tertiary to the central plot, extremely lethal combat isn't necessary for proper dramatic tension. In fact, low lethality combat can be a cathartic release to ease the dramatic tension but if there's no danger at all then it can't function in that capacity and it's just a slog that's better skipped.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I played with that GM a few years back. He once ruled that Con damage doesn't alter your hit points, because that would have killed a PC. Heaven forbid a single PC ever die.

Imagine you declare an action. Without rolling, the GM describes the most fantastic success you could ever dream of. No plot to be found, it's just a power-fantasy, and you get a whole city as a playground. But when he wants you beaten, he asks for your HP total, he rolls in secret, and his favorite Mary Sue knocks you down to exactly 1 hit point.

In other words, "Here, I have this great book for you guys to read. You even get to roll some dice! They won't really affect anything but sure is good for the show!"

[BWR]

From about level 1 and on.
what can I say? I'm old school in that respect. Of course in those cases they usually came as the result of an attack roll, so you technically have two chances to resist it.

[TuggyNE]

when should PCs start worrying about them?

Long enough before the DM starts using them to get some extra gear.

Oh, a more general and precise answer? I'd expect sometime between level 6 and level 12, but it's hard to get much tighter, since it depends largely on monster selection.


how about "save or suck"s? im curious because i'm working on a build whos fort saves are pretty abysmal. +7 base with a null con score at 20th level (necropolitan)

Well, to start with, the immunities are handy but when they don't work you're going to be in serious pain (e.g. disintegrate is "d20+7 vs DC 28 or take an average of four more HP than you have"*). Cloak of Resistance +5 or equivalent spells are a must. Also get something, if possible, to block or deflect ranged touch attacks, since those will probably be a fairly substantial attack route for this sort of thing.


*No, seriously. If you have average HP for 20d12, maxed at first level, disintegrate will do 4.5 HP more, average, than your total: 140 vs 135.5. If that's not a save-or-die I don't know what is.

[Eldariel]

*No, seriously. If you have average HP for 20d12, maxed at first level, disintegrate will do 4.5 HP more, average, than your total: 140 vs 135.5. If that's not a save-or-die I don't know what is.

Then again, if you're a Barbarian (that is, d12 HD), Dragon or some such you'll probably have ~26-30 Con at that point at the very least which would add up to another 160-200 HP making it hit you for about half your health.

Hell, even the Wizard with 20d4 and 14 Con (+6 item, +2-4 inherent) will have 51.5 + 120-140 which is enough to survive a Disintegrate without accounting for spell-based defenses or Temp HP from False Life-style effects.

[hymer]

@ Eldariel: Nevertheless, OP needs to treat Disintegrate much as he would a SoD, which is what Tuggy was talking about.

[Eldariel]

@ Eldariel: Nevertheless, OP needs to treat Disintegrate much as he would a SoD, which is what Tuggy was talking about.

I suppose. There's always Corpsecrafter, Desecrate, etc. so they can get non-Undead style HP totals.

[hymer]

@ Eld: I certainly wouldn't say always. :smallsmile: Those depend on a lot of things, including the table, the player and the DM.

[Spore]

7-10 tbh.

Starting with petrification from a cockatrice at CR 3 (Stone to Flesh is only cheaper, not easier available than Ressurection). Medusa, and then casters with Disintegration, Word of Power: Death, etc.

Although an optimizing DM with a sorcerer, that can cast Enervation can be pretty deadly. (Even if not killed, negative levels are by far the hardest debuffs).