[PF]Adapting a Heartwarder

[jamieth]

So I was thinking, what would the Heartwarder PrC (Forgotten Realms: Faiths and Pantheons, p.196) look in Pathfinder?
Most of the changes are obvious: boost hd to d6, change saves to PF prestige progresiion, fix wording on Tears of Evergold..., probably make Voice of a Siren grant Greater Spell Focus, since every Heartwarder has the standart one by definition.
The question is, what about divine patron? So far, I see the following options:
1. Drop the CG requrement and tie the class to Calistria. (Probably the most fitting Golarion deity for the class's flavor)
2. Tie the class to some Empyreal Lord
3. Drop the divine patron altogether?

What would you say?

[Talya]

So I was thinking, what would the Heartwarder PrC (Forgotten Realms: Faiths and Pantheons, p.196) look in Pathfinder?
Most of the changes are obvious: boost hd to d6,

D8, actually. It's a 3/4 BAB class.



1. Drop the CG requrement and tie the class to Calistria. (Probably the most fitting Golarion deity for the class's flavor)
2. Tie the class to some Empyreal Lord
3. Drop the divine patron altogether?

What would you say?

Shelyn, not Calistria. Sune is love, beauty and passion. Shelyn is Love, beauty, and art. The similarity is too close. Passion is NOT sex-focused there, that's what Sharess is for in the realms.

[jamieth]

D8, actually. It's a 3/4 BAB class.

Hm, you're right. I wasn't sure about d8 on a 10/10 casting progression PrC, but at least Divine Scion does it, so I guess d8 it is.
update: oops, I just noticed Oracle is a d8, medium BAB, 9th-level casting base class. Yep, I was very wrong here.


Shelyn, not Calistria. Sune is love, beauty and passion. Shelyn is Love, beauty, and art. The similarity is too close. Passion is NOT sex-focused there, that's what Sharess is for in the realms.

The thing is, the class's mechanics, to me, really say "chaotic" more than they say "good". Of course, that restriction might be rather intentional, to prevent the enchantment abuse... but, yes, if we're speaking about the "Golarion deity most similar to Sune" that should be Shelyn, hands down. Well, Shelyn can even have CG clerics, not just followers, so no problems here, I suppose.

What about Greater Spell Focus? Reasonable addition to Voice of Siren?

Thanks for input!

[Craft (Cheese)]

Plus Calistria has too much focus on spite and revenge. And bees. Shelyn is a good idea, though she's Neutral Good instead of Chaotic Good. There aren't any CG empyreal lords published that'd make a good analogue to Sune (which is kinda surprising honestly), but you could always make your own. Arshea might work (but is also NG), but like Talya said "passion" is about more than just sex.

Dump dodge, mobility, and whip proficiency as requirements. Dump the reflex save bonus requirement. Greater Spell Focus is reasonable.

[Alleran]

Plus Calistria has too much focus on spite and revenge. And bees.
Worse.

Wasps.

[Talya]

It'd suck, though, with any charisma-based casting class in Pathfinder.

I've thought about this a lot, because my old DM wants to revive the best campaign I've ever played in, but use pathfinder rules instead of 3.5. While this is awesome, I have concerns.

Heartwarder is not bad on a sorcerer in 3.5-- because a sorcerer in 3.5 has only one class feature. Everything else they get is a bonus. In Pathfinder, the sorcerer/heartwarder loses a bunch of spells known and bloodline abilities. Oracle/Heartwarder loses a bunch of mystery spells known and revelations and such. Bard/Heartwarder gains far less from the casting advancement, and loses all their bardic feature progression. Summoner/Paladin...don't even think about it.

Not to mention the minor favored class bonuses.

Pathfinder's segmented class abilities are terribly designed this way, in that very little (usually, nothing) advances if you grab a prc, so it discourages multiclassing.



Now, if I were to use this in PF, I'd change voice of the siren to be an untyped bonus that stacks with spell focus/greater spell focus. I think I might also change the capstone Fey Transformation ability to grant fey-bloodline (including all arcana, spells known, powers, class skills etc.), with a sorcerer level based on the caster level being advanced by heartwarder. That's what a PrC SHOULD look like.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Worse.

Wasps.

Not in my headcanon. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtXuBN1Hvc)

"This problem has only been made worse by the addition of yet more bees!"


Heartwarder is not bad on a sorcerer in 3.5-- because a sorcerer in 3.5 has only one class feature. Everything else they get is a bonus. In Pathfinder, the sorcerer/heartwarder loses a bunch of spells known and bloodline abilities. Oracle/Heartwarder loses a bunch of mystery spells known and revelations and such. Bard/Heartwarder gains far less from the casting advancement, and loses all their bardic feature progression. Summoner/Paladin...don't even think about it.

Not to mention the minor favored class bonuses.

Pathfinder's segmented class abilities are terribly designed this way, in that very little (usually, nothing) advances if you grab a prc, so it discourages multiclassing.

Feature, not bug. Ideally, entering a PrC should be a trade-off, and not a strict upgrade to your character like it was in many cases in 3.5.

[Renegade Paladin]

Pathfinder's segmented class abilities are terribly designed this way, in that very little (usually, nothing) advances if you grab a prc, so it discourages multiclassing.
I'm fairly certain that's deliberate. I have most of the Pathfinder core line, and they haven't published a prestige class in any of them since the APG. There are, however, loads and loads of base class archetypes. I think it's just a fundamental difference in design philosophy from the way WotC took 3rd edition.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Paizo just seems to be terrified of publishing useful PrCs in general: Most of the new ones they've published (in Paths of Prestige and other books) are strict downgrades from their logical entry classes. Supposedly, this is because James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner for those 3.5 builds that go like Fighter/Wizard/Spellblade/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade/Eldritch Knight.

[Renegade Paladin]

Paizo just seems to be terrified of publishing useful PrCs in general: Most of the new ones they've published (in Paths of Prestige and other books) are strict downgrades from their logical entry classes. Supposedly, this is because James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner for those 3.5 builds that go like Fighter/Wizard/Spellblade/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade/Eldritch Knight.
Well, having had to DM for several, they are irritating to deal with. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

I'm fairly certain that's deliberate. I have most of the Pathfinder core line, and they haven't published a prestige class in any of them since the APG. There are, however, loads and loads of base class archetypes. I think it's just a fundamental difference in design philosophy from the way WotC took 3rd edition.

The idea is to encourage people to 1-20 with a core class, unless someone really has an oddball concept. In my opinion, I think Archetypes are a better way to accomplish what Prestige Classes are supposed to, because an archetype can let you get the ability you want at level 1, rather than making you wait for 8 levels and take all your feats as prereqs.

[Talya]

I'm fairly certain that's deliberate. I have most of the Pathfinder core line, and they haven't published a prestige class in any of them since the APG. There are, however, loads and loads of base class archetypes. I think it's just a fundamental difference in design philosophy from the way WotC took 3rd edition.

Of course it's deliberate.

I agree that a PrC should generally be a tradeoff. However, it should not be strictly inferior to the base class. A game where multiclassing is always a mechanically bad choice effectively does not have multiclassing. It's a terrible design decision.

[Slipperychicken]

I agree that a PrC should generally be a tradeoff. However, it should not be strictly inferior to the base class. A game where multiclassing is always a mechanically bad choice effectively does not have multiclassing. It's a terrible design decision.

It isn't always inferior in Pathfinder, however. For example Oracle1/BarbarianX is great, as is Gunslinger1/Trench Fighter 3/ Gunslinger4. I think Eldritch Knight is still good in PF too, since people keep mentioning it.

3.5 got a lot of complaints that people have a hard time roleplaying multiclassed and prestige-classed characters. Also, dead levels were a huge issue with 3.5 base classes. Both of those issues are mostly remedied by giving base classes many more class features, and giving them several real incentives to stay in-class. It helps make people feel like they don't have to multiclass to be powerful, and also so that people who do single-class feel more satisfied with their abundance of class features.

[jamieth]

Returning to topic - sure, a PF Sorcerer or Oracle sacrifices more than the 3.5 one by entering a PrC, but I believe it can sure be worthwhile - I mean, +5 Cha is at least an equivalent of a Greater Focus on ALL spells; plus, grab one of the Oracle's numerous "CHA as DEX" Revelations, and you get a decent AC... One question, though - being inherent bonus, does it stack with wishes? If not, then, I agree, no point.
Speaking of entry requrements, that +2 Ref suddenly strike me as really odd - as in, the only classes that can get 3rd level spells while not having a +2 Ref are prepared full casters, and they won't want the Charisma-based PrC anyway... (I mean, there certainly are ways to get 3rd level Cha-based spells before +2 ref, but still)

[Craft (Cheese)]

Well, having had to DM for several, they are irritating to deal with. :smalltongue:

Honestly? The problem (to the extent that it existed at all) has just been shifted. You don't really see builds that are a combination of 6 PrCs in PF, but you do see plenty of characters that use 6 or 7 different archetypes on a single character.

[ngilop]

Paizo just seems to be terrified of publishing useful PrCs in general: Most of the new ones they've published (in Paths of Prestige and other books) are strict downgrades from their logical entry classes. Supposedly, this is because James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner for those 3.5 builds that go like Fighter/Wizard/Spellblade/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade/Eldritch Knight.


Supposedly, this is because James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner for those 3.5 builds that go like Fighter/Wizard/Spellblade/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade/Eldritch Knight.


Supposedly, this is because James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner for those 3.5 builds


James Jacobs has an irrational hateboner


irrational hateboner

So.. ive never before ever seen that term used and I have to say.. its funny Craft (Chese) you are now a member of an exclusive club :)

[Talya]

Returning to topic - sure, a PF Sorcerer or Oracle sacrifices more than the 3.5 one by entering a PrC, but I believe it can sure be worthwhile - I mean, +5 Cha is at least an equivalent of a Greater Focus on ALL spells; plus, grab one of the Oracle's numerous "CHA as DEX" Revelations, and you get a decent AC... One question, though - being inherent bonus, does it stack with wishes? If not, then, I agree, no point.
Speaking of entry requrements, that +2 Ref suddenly strike me as really odd - as in, the only classes that can get 3rd level spells while not having a +2 Ref are prepared full casters, and they won't want the Charisma-based PrC anyway... (I mean, there certainly are ways to get 3rd level Cha-based spells before +2 ref, but still)

It's actually the equivalent of gaining +125,000 gold pieces over 10 levels. The Heartwarder charisma bonus is nice, but it's an inherent bonus. It's a free tome or five castings of wish. That's substantial, but just remember, you're trading away class features for a pile of gold.

[grarrrg]

D8, actually. It's a 3/4 BAB class.


Hm, you're right. I wasn't sure about d8 on a 10/10 casting progression PrC, but at least Divine Scion does it, so I guess d8 it is.
update: oops, I just noticed Oracle is a d8, medium BAB, 9th-level casting base class. Yep, I was very wrong here.

The "Hit dice based on Bab" thing is not a hard and fast rule, especially when it comes to PrC's (don't make me make a list...I'll do it!).

If the original is 3/4 Bab with d4HD, then making it a 3/4 Bab with d6HD would be the most appropriate.


And yes, 1 extra Hit point per level is by no means gamebreaking.

[Talya]

So far, this is what my DM and I are mulling over for when he continues the old campaign. (changes from Faiths & Pantheons are intentional, to make the Heartwarder more worthwhile as a PRC. The entry cost is still very high, due to feat tax and loss of class features.)

Heartwarder - Prestige Class, Pathfinder Conversion
Heartwarders are aesthetes and hedonists who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things and who nurture beautiful objects.

Requirements
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Skills: Bluff 3 ranks, Diplomacy 3 ranks
Language: Sylvan
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
Base Save Bonus: Reflex +2
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd level spells
Special: Must worship the goddess Sune. If a divine spellcaster, Sune must be her divine patron.

Hit Die: d8
BAB: Good
Good Saves: Fortitude, Will.
Skill Points: 2 + int

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A heartwarder gains no weapon or armor proficiencies

Spells per day/spells known: At each heartwarder level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a heartwarder, the player must decide which class to add each heartwarder level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Charisma Increase (Ex): As the heartwarder gains levels in this prestige class, she becomes increasingly more persuasive and attractive. At level 1 she gains a +1 permanent bonus to her charisma score, and every other heartwarder level after that this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of a +5 bonus at level 9.

Heart of Passion (Ex): At 2nd level, a heartwarder evinces such passionate belief in whatever she does or says that she can sway the thoughts of the most rigid critic. This ability translates into a +2 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks.

Lips of Rapture (Su): At 4th level, a heartwarder’s kiss confers a state of ecstatic bliss upon its recipient, conferring a +2 morale bonus on attacks, weapon damage, checks, and saves. The enraptured recipient receives an additional +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects. This ability lasts 5 rounds and may be used a number of times per day equal to her Charisma bonus. Moreover, it permanently lowers the effects of exhaustion (the character becomes fatigued), removes existing fatigue, and cures nausea. The one downside to a heartwarder’s kiss is that it also has the effect of a daze spell upon the recipient (the normal saving throw applies) as if cast by a sorcerer of the heartwarder’s caster level.

Voice of the Siren (Su): At 6th level, a heartwarder’s voice is so enticing that she weakens the ability of opponents to resist her spells. A heartwarder may add +1 DC and +1 caster level to all spells and supernatural abilities with a vocal component. If a spell does not have a vocal component, the heartwarder can gain these bonuses by adding a vocal component to her spells. A heartwarder may not receive this bonus if she modifies these spells with the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

Tears of Evergold (Su): At 8th level, once per day as a full round action, a heartwarder may cry tears drawn from Evergold, a sacred pool that enhances beauty that Sune shares with the elven goddess Hanali Celanil. If these tears are collected, they are equivalent to the effects of an Elixir of Love and a potion of Cure Serious Wounds, and serve the Sunite faith as Holy Water.

Fey Metamorphosis: At 10th level, a heartwarder is so attuned with the forces of natural beauty that she transcends mortal beauty. Her type changes to “Fey,” which means, among other things, that she is no longer affected by spells and special abilities that target humanoids, such as Charm Person. You no longer suffer penalties from aging, nor can you die of old age, although bonuses based on your original race’s age categories still accrue. You are also immune to charisma damage and drain.