Female villains?

[Hyena]

I've been trying to remember some female villains, but I couldn't come up with many. Could you help me a little? The list of requirements is this:
1) She must be big, at least have a large story arc specifically starring her as a bad guy. If she does not have higher-ups, or if the is the main villain, it's even better.
2) If the media she is from is action-oriented, she must be able in combat.
3) She must not be from anime or manga.

[Cen]

From the top of my head:

Cersei Lannister from ASoIaF
Other Mother from Coraline
Lyta Hall from Sandman
Ava Lord; Delia; Mariah from Sin City
Mother Gothel from Tangled
Queen Chrysalis; Mane-iac; Nightmare Moon; Nightmare Rarity from My little Pony

[Hyena]

Cersei Lannister
Does not have any combat skills, which is notable, because Arya and Brienne do.


Mother Gothel
Also not a fighter. Well, she backstabbed a guy one time... I am not sure if she counts.


Queen Chrysalis; Mane-iac; Nightmare Moon; Nightmare Rarity from My little Pony
Ponies. Also, who are Mane-iac and Nightmare Rarity? Are they some kind of expanded universe stuff?

[Grif]

Batman featured some excellent female antagonists:

Poison Ivy.
Harley Quinn.
Catwoman.

EDIT: Mane-iac and Nightmare Rarity appears to be from the comic books. Has never appeared on the show to my knowledge.

[Hyena]

Not sure if all three of them count. Ivy's threat mainly comes from her ability to control minds of men and combination of using poisons and immunity to them. Harley Quinn is the Joker's henchwoman and rarely, if ever, appears in storylines that does not feature him as the big bad guy. Catwoman, meanwhile, while being a scary opponent and a major character, is not a villain.
...most of the times.

[Tengu_temp]

It's strange that Azula wasn't mentioned yet. She has a huge pile of annoying fanboys who claim she's OMH TEH MOST DIABOLICAL VILLAIN EVERRR, but exaggeration aside, she's still a very well-written and effectual villain. She's not the big bad of Avatar, that'd be her dad, but she's still the main villain for the whole second season.



3) She must not be from anime or manga.

I assume this is because such characters are actually fairly common in anime and manga (as opposed to western works where female characters in male-oriented works are way too rare), and not due to some kind of anti-anime bias? Does this also cover Japanese video games?

[Kd7sov]

EDIT: Mane-iac and Nightmare Rarity appears to be from the comic books. Has never appeared on the show to my knowledge.

Nightmare Rarity, yes (I'm still annoyed they didn't shorten the name to Nightmarity, but that's neither here nor there), but Mane-iac is actually from an in-universe comic into which the main characters are pulled in the most recent episode.

[Zaggab]

Kerrigan from Starcraft
Melissan from Throne of Bhaal
The crazy templar chick from Dragon Age 2
Flemeth (kind of) from Dragon Age
Piety from Path of Exile
All of the female forsaken from Wheel of Time (Lanfear, Semhirage, Graendal, Mesaana, etc)
Kreia from Kotor 2
Azula from the last airbender

Just from the top of my head.

[Kato]

3) She must not be from anime or manga.

That's quite an arbitrary exclusion :smalltongue:

And the complaint about Ivy seems somewhat unfair as well, though... fine.


I'd suggest Mystique even if, yeah, she often appears as Magneto's second in command she also has her own arcs fairly often from what I know.

Once Upon a Time and in fact, a bunch of fairy tales and related media feature female villains, most often the "evil queen" (more or less) stereotype, though. (And don't you start with "magic is no way to fight" :smalltongue:)

I guess an issue if you want actually combat active female villains is the rarity of very muscular women in media... I guess media with female leads fit more often then, like Kill Bill Vol.2

Further... Well, Final Fantasy (you didn't say anything about video games :smallbiggrin:) had female villains once in a while, likely most prominently VIII's witches, but also III had a female final villain. And depending on how you interpret VII's Jenova...

Otherwise... how about Nightmare Moon, for western animation? Not the most straightforward, I'll admit, but still.

[Hyena]

I assume this is because such characters are actually fairly common in anime and manga (as opposed to western works where female characters in male-oriented works are way too rare), and not due to some kind of anti-anime bias? Does this also cover Japanese video games?
Actually, it's exactly because of my arbitrary anti-anime bias. Also, the fact that there are just so many anime works around, that the thread will be overflown by characters from some obscure idol-themed series.
Speaking of anime, though, Code Geass did have my favourite badass of all time, Cornelia, the main villain of the first season, the only reason to watch Code Geass in the first place.

Mystique definetly counts - while she is usually Magneto's second in command, she has a crapload of her own stories - and in some adaptations, like X-Men Evolution, she becomes independent from him very quickly. Also, before somebody says "But Harley Quinn starred in the Suicide Squad! And Gotham's Sirens!" - she was the heroine in all of those, not the villain.
Once upon a time counts. All those from Zaggab's post can be added do the list, though you forgot the Broodmother from the incredibly crappy Awakening (by the way, did she have a name?).

[Brother Oni]

Does not have any combat skills, which is notable, because Arya and Brienne do.

Your second clause states that if the media is action orientated, she must have combat skills, not that she must have combat skills regardless of media. Did you mean the latter?

Cersei is part of the political arc of ASoIaF, which is arguably more important than the face stabbing stuff.
Again, Coraline isn't that action orientated (it's more an adventure story), so the Other Mother fulfils all criteria as listed.

Demona from Gargoyles.
Maleifcent from Sleeping Beauty.
The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz and its expanded universe.
Cruella de Vil from 101 Dalmations.
Sadako/Samara from The Ring
Alma from F.E.A.R.
Ultimecia from FF8 (not sure she qualifies due to the anime/manga clause).
Circe from Greek Mythology
Ming Xiao from Vampire:Bloodlines.
Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft (post zerg-ification)
The Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland.
Annie Wilkes from Misery.
The White Witch from the Narnia universe.
Grendel's mother from Beowulf.
Milady de Winter from The Three Musketeers, although she was subservient to Cardinal Richelieu.

Not sure if Shodan or GLaDOS count, being artificial beings.

[Comissar]

Are we counting GLaDoS?

Valkia could be considered one? (Warhammer)

Aria T'loak from Mass Effect 2/3? (Technically not female due to being Asari and doesn't directly antagonise Shepard, but meh, still not a friendly person)

The Other from Girl Genius

Bellatrix Lestrange (Harry Potter)?

These are just off the top of my head, I'll come back with more as I think of them

[Hyena]

Brother's Oni list is extensive, but I do have one certain nitpick

The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz and its expanded universe.
Did she actually do anything evil on screen?

Also, while Milady is cardinal's subservient, she has a lot more, er-r-r, page time in the first book then he does and her involvement in the story is much more direct. They are a lot like Palpatine and Darth Vader.

[Traab]

Dorothea SaDiablo and Hekatah from the Black Jewels Trilogy. Both are magically powerful, empire controlling witches and pretty damn good at playing mental games as well. The stuff they do would take far too long to explain to nonreaders of the series, but suffice it to say they are very very evil cruel sadistic monsters.

Also, Yeah the wicked witch did bad stuff on screen. For starters she set the scarecrow on fire. She also ordered her minions the winged monkeys to kick dorothy and her crews butt. I also think she tried to put the crew into an enchanted sleep outside Oz but glinda, the real villain, interfered.

[Cen]

Oh, oh I got one:

Luna Travoria from Dominic Deegan

[The_Snark]

Also, Yeah the wicked witch did bad stuff on screen. For starters she set the scarecrow on fire. She also ordered her minions the winged monkeys to kick dorothy and her crews butt. I also think she tried to put the crew into an enchanted sleep outside Oz but glinda, the real villain, interfered.

Not to mention that she was going to kill Dorothy. I was never sure if her bit with the hourglass ("D'you see that [hourglass]? That's how much longer you have to live! And it isn't long, my pretty. It isn't long!") represented a threat or some kind of magical curse, but Young Me was thoroughly creeped out.

Other villains: the Queen from The 10th Kingdom, some of the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica (particularly Number 6 in the first season), the Baroness Ceaucescu from Paul Park's Romania books. (A bit obscure, but that was a memorable villain.)

[Grif]

Oh, oh I got one:

Luna Travoria from Dominic Deegan

*snerk*

I think he wants serious antagonists, and not ones that are accidentally villains due to writer (in)ability. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

*snerk*

I think he wants serious antagonists, and not ones that are accidentally villains due to writer (in)ability. :smalltongue:

Besides, she was great. (so great)

[ben-zayb]

Happy Holidays folks!

Dark Phoenix (Marvel)
Cassandra Nova (Marvel)
Morgan le Fay (Marvel)
Cheetah (DC)
Mara Jade (Star Wars)
Alien Queen (Alien)
Carrie White (Carrie)
Nursed Ratched (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)
Elizabeth Bathory (every pop culture work based on her)
Sinestra (WoW)
Sylvanas Windrunner (WoW)
Medea (greek mythology)

[Traab]

Beula Balbricker (Porkys)

Yeah she was nasty, but I can forgive that for she instigated what may very well be the single funniest scene ever in a movie. (The lineup request, for those who have seen the film)

[Avilan the Grey]

I find the female villain fairly common. I don't need to list any of my own, but at least 20th century media is full of them.

[Brother Oni]

Did she actually do anything evil on screen?


Further to other comments, have you seen Wicked?



Also, while Milady is cardinal's subservient, she has a lot more, er-r-r, page time in the first book then he does and her involvement in the story is much more direct. They are a lot like Palpatine and Darth Vader.

She does only partially fulfil your first clause though as she has a higher-up she reports to.

More examples:

Queen Bavmorda from Willow.
Satan from Bedazzled (mainly takes a female persona in this one).
Miranda Priestly from The Devil Wears Prada
Pasiphae from the Atlantis TV series currently running on the BBC.
Suzie Toller from Wild Things.
Catherine Tramell from Basic Instinct
Lady Macbeth from Macbeth (it's debatable whether she's subservient to Macbeth)
Miss Trunchbull from Matilda
The witches from The Witches.
Aunts Spiker and Sponge from James and the Giant Peach
The Marquise de Merteuil from Dangerous Liaisons and her representations in the various remakes.
Jennifer Check from Jennifer's Body

Going into more fuzzy territory for me, there are lead female antagonists in Mean Girls and The Craft.

[Frozen_Feet]

Rentar-Ihrno from Exile: the ruined world.

Various evil stepmothers and such from fairytales: Snow White, Cinderella etc.

Twinrova from Legend of Zelda, with a honorary mention to their henchwoman Veran from Oracle of Ages.

Queen Metroid from Metroid.

Likewise, Queen Alien from Aliens.

Ursula in Little Mermaid.

[MLai]

Hey, nobody mentioned the Borg Queen.

[thompur]

Glory from Season 5 of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I believe she meets all of your criteria..and then some! :smallbiggrin:

[Liffguard]

Skade from the Revelation Space trilogy.

Sabetha from The Republic of Thieves.

Trinica Dracken from the Tales of the Ketty Jay series.

Clarissa Mao from Abaddon's Gate.

Reileen Kawahara from Altered Carbon.


Just off the top of my head.

[Sapphire Guard]

Beatrix of Alexandria Final Fantasy 9
Jacqueline NatlaTomb Raider
Shelob
Empress Laseen, Malazan Book
of the Fallen
The Lady Malazan Book of the Fallen
Adjunct Lorn, Malazan Book of the Fallen
Sister Reverence, Malazan Book of the Fallen
Sister Calm, Malazan Book of the Fallen
Lady Envy, Malazan Book of the Fallen
Goddess Dryjhna Malazan Book of the Fallen
Scylis, Shadows of the Apt
Every boss fight in No More Heroes, making 4 of 10 in the first game alone, several more in the sequel.
Sniper Wolf, Metal Gear Solid
Rosso the Crimson, Dirge of Cerberus
Esme, A series of unfortunate events
Fortune, Metal Gear Solid 2
Eva, Metal Gear Solid 3
O Ren Ishi, Elle DriverKill Bill

[Adanedhel]

The Female Changeling from Deep Space Nine is kind of the main villain of the entire series, though in the end she get's sidestepped by Gul Dukat.

As far as combat potential goes, she managed to take down Odo in Broken Link, do not discount biological warfare as a viable action method, it's the CHangelings greatest forte.

[Kd7sov]

There's no real way to say this without spoilers, is there? All right...

In RWBY, Cinder appears to be at least pretty high on the totem pole. She's able to boss Roman Torchwick (the most visible villain) around, and has gone toe-to-toe with Glynda Goodwitch (apparently equivalent to Professor McGonagall at a combat-focused school) with no clear victor. She also might be the "queen" referenced in an enigmatic message just before the final credits. She has only appeared (or been mentioned, unless she has a secret identity) in the first and last episodes of the only volume to date, but I daresay she'll get more appearances as the story progresses.

Though, re: your third requirement: Although RWBY is, to the best of my understanding, made in Oklahoma, and is a 3d CGI show, it's specifically designed to be animesque. Definitely in its visuals, and I think also in its tropes. (I'm not familiar with anime tropes, though.)

[kpenguin]

Further to other comments, have you seen Wicked?

Well, you can make anyone a threatening villain in fanfiction.

[Aotrs Commander]

Commander Makara from Star Fleet, though it would depend on your definition of "combat skills" since she never actually got her hands dirty personaly, since she was the commander of an Imperial Alliance battlecruiser. (And her tactical accumen was at times... questionable. One suspects the Imperial Alliance only really got anywhere by bullying races of vastly lesser technology.)

Still, it is implied that in the past she had committed basically genocide on other alien worlds and until X-Bomber was launched, her forces tore through Earth's defences.

As a marionette puppet-show, it is is neither anime nor manga (though it was originally produced in Japan); the English adaption from the UK was sufficiently popular that ITV were planning to fund a second series, but a fire in the production facility ended those plans. (I often wonder what a second series would have been like...)

[Talya]

Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft (post zerg-ification)


I question her villain-status.

[Kitten Champion]

Syn, from the Captain America comics. Basically a young female version of her father, Red Skull.

The Soviet Russian officer from Indiana Jones: Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, played by Kate Blanchett. She was just like every other Indy villain, but Kate Blanchett happened to be playing her.

Viper from The Wolverine, not a whole lot of development with this one, but she had enough characterization as far as superhero movies go.

Kitiara from Dragonlance, I guess Takhisis too.

Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for a season and a bit.

She didn't exactly fight, but Morgan Pendragon from Camelot was a pretty vicious villain.

Blackarachnia from Transformers: Beast Wars I was always especially fond of. Though, like Faith, she turned good later.

Various villains have been female in the Power Rangers series. Though it isn't exactly something I can talk authoritatively on, I can point to Queen Rita and Divatox. Likewise, Fire Emblem has quite a number of quality villains of the female variety from each game.

[Pendulous]

Nightmare Rarity, yes (I'm still annoyed they didn't shorten the name to Nightmarity, but that's neither here nor there), but Mane-iac is actually from an in-universe comic into which the main characters are pulled in the most recent episode.

It's possibly because the name was already taken. (http://diablo.gamepedia.com/Nightmarity)

Which, speaking of, if you count the "new Diablo" as female, then there you go. I also second Kerrigan. Blizzard must be pretty good on making female villains. i'm sure the Warcraft universe has a few.

[MLai]

I question her villain-status.
Oh noes... they're going to turn her into a misunderstood well-intentioned noncomformist with a cause? :smallsigh:

It's not bad enough we have orcs as wise noble savages, apparently.

[Tanuki Tales]

And the complaint about Ivy seems somewhat unfair as well, though... fine.



And inaccurate, unless DCnU completely wrecked her. She used to be a somewhat minor agent of The Green and teamed up with Swamp Thing against The Floronic Man, if memory serves. And I remember how she basically effortlessly owned Clayface during No Man's Land.

[Talya]

Oh noes... they're going to turn her into a misunderstood well-intentioned noncomformist with a cause? :smallsigh:

No. She's never been anything more than a victim. Arcturus Mengst and the zerg were villainous and a threat to human life, respectively, but were never more than red herrings. The Xel'naga are the real threat. The Queen of Blades may yet go from victim to messiah.

[Zrak]

Sniper Wolf, Metal Gear Solid
Eva, Metal Gear Solid 3

I question either of these being listed as "villains." Especially Eva.

[MLai]

No. She's never been anything more than a victim. Arcturus Mengst and the zerg were villainous and a threat to human life, respectively, but were never more than red herrings. The Xel'naga are the real threat. The Queen of Blades may yet go from victim to messiah.
Wait wait how can she be "never anything more than a victim" when she reveled in her newfound power and took to commanding the Zerg in its destructive assimilation with her own free will?

You can say that Kerrigan was a victim, because we can accept that her brain was likely rewritten in the process of becoming the Queen of Blades. But the amalgam being that is the QoB herself is not a victim.

[Metahuman1]

Maleficent from sleeping beauty. (Disney Version.)

Silver Swan, Circe and Giganta from DC comics Wonder Woman Continuity.

Typhoid Mary and Echo from Marvel Comics Daredevil Continuity.

Maelstrom of DC Comics New Gods/Superman and Supergirl continuity.

Talia Al Ghoul and Mocking Bird from DC's Batman continuity.

[Legato Endless]

Wait wait how can she be "never anything more than a victim" when she reveled in her newfound power and took to commanding the Zerg in its destructive assimilation with her own free will?

You can say that Kerrigan was a victim, because we can accept that her brain was likely rewritten in the process of becoming the Queen of Blades. But the amalgam being that is the QoB herself is not a victim.

According to...sigh, Blizzard's most recent retcon explains that the Overmind and Kerrigan weren't actually free agents pursuing vaguely discernible lines of villainy. No, they were enslaved by their biological programming. Kerrigan, in this increasingly sexist series was first the slave of the confederates, then Mensk, then the Overmind, then the Dark Voice, though depending on how far this goes, Amon might have been behind her ghost indoctrination too. Anyway, after her big strong man freed from her unbreakable bounds with a pulsing artifact, she is now all that stands between the Koprulu sector and the ominous narrator of woe, lest he enact his ever more convoluted plan to remake the A-Team in space, or something. So no. Kerrigan isn't to blame for anything. Because she never had any real independent agency whatsoever before Heart of the Swarm.

The Phantasm from Batman TAS
Zola from Girl Genius
She was the one in command of her contingent anyway. It's vague about where she stands in the actual hierarchy.
Ashera from Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn
Alexia Ashford from Resident Evil
Morgana Pendragon from Merlin TV series
Miss Parker from The Pretender
Tsarmina from Redwall
Dahlia from Phoenix Wright

[Felhammer]

Off the top of my head...

Cheetah from the Wonder Woman and Justice League comics and TV shows.

Dark Phoenix from the X-Men comics, the X-Men cartoons and the X-3 movie.

Madame Masque from the Avengers, Iron Man and Hawkeye comics, as well as the Iron Man TV show.

Mystique from the X-Men comics, cartoons and movies.

Blackfire from the Teen Titans comics and TV show.

Granny Goodness from the Miracle Man, Superman and Justice League comics, as well as the Superman and Justice league cartoons.

The Female Furies from the Superman and Justice League comics and TV shows.

Harley Quinn from the Batman comics and TV shows.

Star Sapphire from the Green Lantern comics and Justice League TV show.

Talia Al Ghul from the Batman comics, Batman cartoons and the Dark Knight Rises.

You could also include Poison Ivy, Morgan le Fay, Black Widow, Giganta.

[Hyena]

According to...sigh, Blizzard's most recent retcon explains that the Overmind and Kerrigan weren't actually free agents pursuing vaguely discernible lines of villainy. No, they were enslaved by their biological programming. Kerrigan, in this increasingly sexist series was first the slave of the confederates, then Mensk, then the Overmind, then the Dark Voice, though depending on how far this goes, Amon might have been behind her ghost indoctrination too. Anyway, after her big strong man freed from her unbreakable bounds with a pulsing artifact, she is now all that stands between the Koprulu sector and the ominous narrator of woe, lest he enact his ever more convoluted plan to remake the A-Team in space, or something. So no. Kerrigan isn't to blame for anything. Because she never had any real independent agency whatsoever before Heart of the Swarm.
While I am known for clashing with some feminists on this forum due to ideology incompatibility, I did cringe from Kerrigan's storyline, but not for the same reason why you did. Remember the ending of HoTS? Where she walked into Mengsk's palace, only to be brought down on her knees, all helpless and screaming, seconds afterwards? And only for Raynor to come and save her?
I don't. For some reason, that horrible ending is totally erazed from my memory, and anyone who reminds me of it will be shot.

[Traab]

It's possibly because the name was already taken. (http://diablo.gamepedia.com/Nightmarity)

Which, speaking of, if you count the "new Diablo" as female, then there you go. I also second Kerrigan. Blizzard must be pretty good on making female villains. i'm sure the Warcraft universe has a few.

Sylvanis is a bit on the fence. I mean, its hard to flat out call her evil when her main goal is to keep her people existing and growing, but the only way to do that is to kill people and bring them back as forsaken. Onyxia might count. She was a big bad black dragon that I believe had also infiltrated stormwind for some reason, (its been so long since her story existed its hard to remember)

[MLai]

Remember the ending of HoTS? Where she walked into Mengsk's palace, only to be brought down on her knees, all helpless and screaming, seconds afterwards? And only for Raynor to come and save her?
I don't. For some reason, that horrible ending is totally erazed from my memory, and anyone who reminds me of it will be shot.
Wait WHAAAAAAAAT.
1. How did she get to that position? Isn't she super-powerful???
2. If someone as strong as her ends up like that, what could Raynor possibly do to help against whatever it is that did it to her???

I don't know SC2 story but I don't mind it being spoiled to me.

[Mordokai]

The trio of furies from God of War: Ascension counts?

[Traab]

Wait WHAAAAAAAAT.
1. How did she get to that position? Isn't she super-powerful???
2. If someone as strong as her ends up like that, what could Raynor possibly do to help against whatever it is that did it to her???

I don't know SC2 story but I don't mind it being spoiled to me.

Ok, basically what happened was there was this xel naga artifact from the terran missions that destroys zerg and greatly weakens kerrigan. It goes missing after the wings of liberty campaign. Kerrigan in her hots game comes back, kicks ass, then invades mengsks palace personally to kill him. He suddenly makes the artifact appear out of the floor and zaps her at point blank range. Raynor saves her because, since he isnt a zerg, the artifact is useless against him.

[Tengu_temp]

Any attempts at a non-villain status for Kerrigan are purely because she's Blizzard's (and a large chunk of the fanbase's) precious Mary Sue babbu. No matter how much they try to sell her as a misunderstood victim, it doesn't change the fact that she routinely commits incredibly vile acts, even in Starcraft 2. And if she turns out to be the whole world's saviour in the end, it's because 1) previously mentioned Mary Sue status and 2) Blizzard sucks at writing big, epic plots, and should stick to pop culture references.

[FinnDarkblade]

There's The Lady and Soulcatcher from The Chronicles of the Black Company. Both go back and forth between being antagonist and ally/employer though.

*edit* I know you said no anime but I just can't see this question without mentioning Balalaika from Black Lagoon. I mean, come on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ116EVYVP4), she's stone cold and scary.

[Lux_Vitayl]

There's also Viper from that new Wolverine movie.

[Legato Endless]

Any attempts at a non-villain status for Kerrigan are purely because she's Blizzard's (and a large chunk of the fanbase's) precious Mary Sue babbu. No matter how much they try to sell her as a misunderstood victim, it doesn't change the fact that she routinely commits incredibly vile acts, even in Starcraft 2. And if she turns out to be the whole world's saviour in the end, it's because 1) previously mentioned Mary Sue status and 2) Blizzard sucks at writing big, epic plots, and should stick to pop culture references.

That's only because you can't emphasize with her horrific plight. I'm sure Legacy of the Void will show this was all for the greater good.

[endoperez]

Well, you can make anyone a threatening villain in fanfiction.

Fanfiction's allowed though, as long as it isn't anime or manga. :smallbiggrin:

[Blightedmarsh]

The queen of air and darkness: Merry gentry series
Sil: Species
The Queen: Aliens
Abigail: addams family
Debbie: Adams family values
Mrs Twit: The twits
Mrs Trenchball: Matilda
The witches: The witches

[Kato]

I've been trying to think of some Discworld villains but I can only recall the elf queen and "Witches abroad's villain-ess... (Wasn't "Guards!Guards!" villain a female as well? It's been so long)

[Yora]

I was quite impessed by Kaede in Ran. Her motive of revenge isn't particularly original. But she goes to great length to gain the trust of the man who killed her father and captured her, and once she gets the opportunity she'd been waiting for all the years, her revenge on his family is most vicious.
Once her work is done, she even taunts the general who had never trusted her but was unable to warn his lords to the point he cuts her head off.

And I defy the rules and mention Eboshi from Princess Mononoke. So the pictures were drawn instead of filmed. So what?
She builds an iron mine inside a forest inhabited by spirits, which destroys the surrounding land, turns in quite some significant profits, and makes her into one of the prime movers and shakers in the region. But I like both her and the movie so much, because it turns out not to be a simple "Evil Industrialists destroy the peaceful nature spirits home" story.
The best thing about the character is, that her whole plan and business doesn't serve selfish motives. Sure, she gets quite wealthy and powerful, but most importantly she provides a home and work for all the outcasts who have nowhere else to turn, like prostitutes and leppers. Even those too sick to work are taken care of. However, this is expensive and needs to be paid for somehow, and modern technologial innovation and expansion is the only way to do it.
And to be entirely fair, the forest spirits are far from nice people either. There's some really mean bastards among them and really don't help in finding a mutually acceptible compromise.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3g19hjmf21rv231do1_1280.jpg

There's a tonne of great villains in Metal Gear Solid, and a good number of them are female.
First is Sniper Wolf. She uses the most underhanded tactic of shoting at a wounded enemy to lure out her allies to kill them as well, which clearly puts her well into Evil territory. Also she has no problem helping a madman threatening the world with nuclear strikes, simply because she wants to stir up enough s*** that someone better than her comes to kill her. Everyone who isn't able to stop her gets killed instead. Her life sucked and if she wants to die, that's her business. But causing piles of dead in the process is against every rule of decency.
And yes, the game pulls every mean and underhanded trick there is, but her death is one of the saddest and most heartbreaking in any video game, as you stand by her while she dies. Right after she tried to murder you and you fatally shot her. And then you mercy kill her with a bullet to the head.

Snake: I don't have any use for a handkerchief.
Otacon: Why?
Snake: I don't have any more tears to shed.

I know, the game pulled cheap tricks to like her and make her seem cool. But it worked, damnit! :smallbiggrin:

I love Olga Gurlukovich. One of my favorite characters ever. When I make RPG characters, they almost always follow one of two basic archetypes. One of them is Olga. :smallbiggrin:
Olga is the daughter of an Ex-Soviet mercenary commander who grew up among soldiers and is badass enough take over the company after her father was killed.
And again, the game pulls a cheap trick and has her forced into helping the villains by having her daughter kidnapped and held hostage. But in typical Metal Gear fashion, she doesn't actually work for the primary antagonist, but infiltrated his band on order of another hidden villain. And to keep her daughter alive, she is willing to betray all her men to certain death. And as a nice touch, she is completely aware that this is a horrible thing to do as a commander who her men trust with her life, but chosing her daughter over them was the choice she made.

While I am not a huge fan of the character, her role as villain is amazing. She betrays the Americans even though she is their top agents, joins a crazy russian general who has gone rogue, and gives him two stolen nuclear bombs as tokens of her good will. And then her pupil Snake has to go after her and kill her to prevent world war 3. The game even is so mean, when you stand over her body with her own gun in your hand, the game pauses the cutscene for a moment. Because the player has to pull the trigger.
From very early on, this character has an incredible presence. Wherever she appears, she completely dominates the whole scene. She's not really human anymore, she's a prime example of an Übermensch.
And then in the end, it turns out she was just infiltrating the rogue generals forces on order of the CIA, and when it turned into a nuclear incident, she decited to be the fall girl and convince the world she was a real traitor. By letting her own pupil kill her in a fight to the death.


And one of my favorite characters from the series, is of course EVA. The whole game is a homage and parody of 60s and 70s James Bond movies, with a sprinkle of Rambo and Commando on top. EVA takes the role of the Bond Girl in this game.
You meet her as a former NSA agent who defected to the KGB and is supposed to be one of your two Soviet helpers to assist you with recovering the nukes from the rogue general. Every Metal Gear game turns out to be completely different from what you thought the whole time, but I think EVA takes the cake: You finally defeated the villains, all the nukes are accounted for, you even got the location of the villains massive treasure, and get your just reward to hang out in a nice remote house with the Bond Girl. And then snake wakes up the next morning, finding her gone. Because the woman you meet isn't actually the agent named EVA. In fact she is send by the Chinese to pose as a KGB agent and infiltrate the generals team to steal the chip with the location of the treasure. She was just scouting outside the base when she ran into a stranger who called himself Snake and asked she is ADAM. Thinking quick, she said she is EVA, and got lucky. You soon forget that she didn't know the propper code word, which ADAM should have given her because she's your ally for the rest of the game.
In the end it doesn't matter, because the chip she and Snake had taken from the villain had been switched for a fake one by ANOTHER hidden player.

Does Flemeth from Dragon Age count? She doesn't try to cause harm to the hero, nor does she try to sabotage his plans and his mission. In fact, she goes to significant lengths to help him being successful.
But her help is always in a way that brings great benefits to her as well, in the long run. And I really love how intricate and still obiously simple the writers made her ultimate plan
to become a god. It's such a simple plan. Just snatch the soul of an Old God as its body is destroyed instead of annihilating it, and consume his essence. And all the mechanisms that allow her to a.) consume demonic spirits, b.) switch bodies, and c.) capture the spirit have been well explained throughout the course of the game.
The only reason it didn't work out in the end was because her daughter found out that she would die in the process and ran away with the god soul contained in a baby. If she had returned to her mother with the child, there is no reason she wouldn't have gained the power of a god.

The crazy templar chick from Dragon Age 2
You mean the crazy Revered Mother? I love how it turns out if the Grand Cleric withdraws her support.
She just turns around to go back up the stairs, and stops for a moment when the Mother gets shot in the heart and face by a qunari archer in the middle of the cathedral, and then continues without taking a look.


Aria T'loak from Mass Effect 2/3? (Technically not female due to being Asari and doesn't directly antagonise Shepard, but meh, still not a friendly person)
Even though it's just a short apearance, I like Nessana Dantius. As someone said, Illium is just Omega with fancy shoes.

Speaking of Asari

Tela Vasir, the Specter in Shadow Broker. She has the mission to protect the galaxy from major threats and has been given explicit clearance to ignore and suspend any law as she sees fit. And occasionally performing assassinations for the Shadow Broker as payment for critical intel that can save millions or even billions of people seems to be an appropriate use of her special extrajudical powers. Specters often have to make much greater sacrifices.
And fighting a maxed out Vanguard with all her powers is really one of my favorite battles in the series.

Valkia could be considered one? (Warhammer)
Reminds me of Selvaria from Valkyria Chronicles. She says she is bound by her honor to serve the man who saved her life, but that doesn't excuse leading the invasion of a neutral county and some casual genocide taking place under her command.

[Palanan]

I'm a little surprised no one's mentioned Asajj Ventriss from the Star Wars EU, appearing mainly during the Clone Wars period. Originally a proposed "Sith Witch" for Episode II, then used in both the animated Clone Wars and then the full CGI Clone Wars series.

Can't question her combat skills; she repeatedly...

...fights Obi-Wan to a draw, holds her own against two Jedi at once, and even survived a no-holds-barred duel with Count Dooku, although she had backup on that one.

And after that last, she's most definitely on her own, thereafter charting her own course.

Culminating in probably the funniest line of the entire series:

"...And I didn't kill a one. It's the new me."

[Drakeburn]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty.

She is pretty much the main villain, puts a curse on a princess so that she'll die on her 16th birthday, uses black magic, and imprisons the prince. I think she killed some of her own minions, but I do not know how magic works in that film. (Tangled did a pretty good job establishing rules for how the magic in the film worked).

Edit: Nevermind. :smallredface:

[Talya]

Even if Kerrigan had free will as the heart of the swarm, Mengst's empire deserved everything it got from the Zerg. Her war was entirely justified.

The Terrans are by far the most reprehensible of the three races in StarCraft.

[KillianHawkeye]

Let's see, some that I didn't see mentioned yet....

Lamia from Stardust
Warden Hennessey from Death Race
Jill Valentine from Resident Evil: Afterlife
Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Adria from the last season of Stargate SG-1 and the movie The Ark of Truth
Theodora and Evanora from Oz the Great and Powerful
Muriel from Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters
The mother (don't remember her name) from the family of bad guys in The Goonies
Ursula from The Little Mermaid



On the off chance that we're counting computers or AIs with female personalities (like GLaDOS), there is also ARIA from Eagle Eye and the Red Queen from the first Resident Evil movie.



Glory from Season 5 of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I believe she meets all of your criteria..and then some! :smallbiggrin:

In a similar vein, Jasmine/Evil Cordelia from the fourth season of Angel.




Carrie White (Carrie)

I don't think I would count Carrie, since she's the protagonist of her movie rather than the villain. It's part of the tragedy of the story that she gets pushed over the edge, freaks out, and murders everybody. The kids who bully her are the actual villains.

[Fates]

Kossil from Ursula Leguine's The Tombs of Atuan (Corrupt priestess with a bunch of Eunuch henchmen, rules a powerful religious sect and makes life a living hell for the heroine. Not a fighting book, so we don't know if she can fight.)
Ursula from the Disney version of The Little Mermaid (A bit silly, but she is perhaps the only smart character in the entire movie, and packs a punch to boot)
Almalexia from the Tribunal expansion in TES III: Morrowind (Has a VERY well-established personality and backstory, with several books written about her. Arguably the most dangerous of the Tribunal, as she kills Sotha Sil and Vivec himself admits she could have killed him. Very intelligent and manipulative, if insane. Probably the most difficult enemy in the game. Also, a god.)

[Metahuman1]

The Summer and Winter Lady's, and the Winter Queen, as well as several of the Knights of the Blackened Denarie's (I know I spelled it wrong leave me alone.) and a Number of the heavy hitters and minor characters in All three Vampire Courts in the Dresden Files also make the villains list.

[The_Snark]

There's The Lady and Soulcatcher from The Chronicles of the Black Company. Both go back and forth between being antagonist and ally/employer though.

There's also Kina and her daughter, from later on in the series.

[grolim]

White Queen from Marvel.

Head 6 from BSG.

Mom from Futurama.

Calysto from Xena.

[Legato Endless]

Even if Kerrigan had free will as the heart of the swarm, Mengst's empire deserved everything it got from the Zerg. Her war was entirely justified.

The Terrans are by far the most reprehensible of the three races in StarCraft.

I don't know if the contest is decided by a vast margin. The conclave attempts genocide against one of its own peoples for the sake of conformity, and dooms their home world to the Zerg thanks to pressing a brutal civil war based on millennia old racism. Regardless, I still would object any attempt at justification. Kerrigan really can't be whitewashed so easily, because in HotS, she still kills billions of people who just happen to be living on the planets she has her queens attack. Mengsk and his regime might be gutter trash, but not everyone who lived on the Dominion's worlds really had a choice in the matter. So she still seems pretty evil.

Killing the Emperor was sort of pointless beyond the revenge thing. I was honestly expecting Kerrigan to pursue something…more by the third act of the game. Frankly, it had no bearing with the big picture. Mengsk should have been defeated by the communications leak in Wings Of Liberty, but it turned out that the whole plot line was filler because Mengsk held onto power somehow. His propaganda machine must be equivalent to his industrial base, which magically turned Korhal into a sprawling Megalopolis after a devastating battle 3 years ago. Based on pattern recognition, I'm certain that whatever happens at the end of Void will nothing to do with the plot line the game pursues up till that point, because why wouldn't Blizzard go 3 for 3?

[Gnoman]

Cordelia Ransom from the Honorverse probably qualifies, with the sole exception that she uses soldiers to do most of her fighting. She was a major leader in the coup against the prewar People's Republic of Haven, and became a key figure in the post-coup reign of terror. Personally responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent civilians, she also orchestrated an official policy of massacring any officer that showed any independence or competence (under the belief that a competent soldier was a soldier that was plotting against her) which caused the PRN to take literally millions of unnecessary casualties. When a military officer convinced her that her proposed summary execution of all Manticoran prisoners violated the universe's equivalent of the Geneva Convention, she not only planned his (and his entire crew's) execution, but found old trumped-up charges that she could use to justify executing the captured captain, and arranged a riot that would allow her to kill the rest.

[FinnDarkblade]

There's also Kina and her daughter, from later on in the series.

Oh yes, how could I forget Booboo. :smalltongue:

*edit* Oh, and Whisper too. She's pretty BA.

[Aotrs Commander]

White Queen from Marvel.

Well, Emma Frost herself hasn't really been a villain for...frack me, is it really that long...? about twenty years. She's been an X-Man (or head of the much-lamented Generation X) since about the mid-nineties in the main comics.

Though she has been in other media more recently.

[Legato Endless]

Well, Emma Frost herself hasn't really been a villain for...frack me, is it really that long...? about twenty years. She's been an X-Man (or head of the much-lamented Generation X) since about the mid-nineties in the main comics.

Though she has been in other media more recently.

That's a good question. Are redeemed or currently no longer villainous characters allowed? Or does it have to be someone who was a villainess through and through?

[FinnDarkblade]

Are you looking for villains who just happen to be female or do you more want villains for whom being female is an important aspect of their character/villainy? I mentioned Whisper a couple posts ago but at no point in the series is it significant that she's female.

[masamune1]

I've been trying to remember some female villains, but I couldn't come up with many. Could you help me a little? The list of requirements is this:
1) She must be big, at least have a large story arc specifically starring her as a bad guy. If she does not have higher-ups, or if the is the main villain, it's even better.
2) If the media she is from is action-oriented, she must be able in combat.
3) She must not be from anime or manga.


Don't understand why 2) is important. Lots of male bad guys from action movies suck at combat, even a lot of classic ones.

Well, whatever. Fiona Volpe, Fatima Blush and Xenia Onatopp from the James Bond movies fit the criteria here, as do a few less infamous others. Non-action Bond villainesses exist as well, like Rosa Klebb and Elektra King.

Don't think anybody has mentioned Jadis the White Witch yet from the Narnia series (or the Lady of the Green Kirtle, for that matter), which is a bit surprising (unless I've just missed her).

[Traab]

I don't know if the contest is decided by a vast margin. The conclave attempts genocide against one of its own peoples for the sake of conformity, and dooms their home world to the Zerg thanks to pressing a brutal civil war based on millennia old racism. Regardless, I still would object any attempt at justification. Kerrigan really can't be whitewashed so easily, because in HotS, she still kills billions of people who just happen to be living on the planets she has her queens attack. Mengsk and his regime might be gutter trash, but not everyone who lived on the Dominion's worlds really had a choice in the matter. So she still seems pretty evil.

Killing the Emperor was sort of pointless beyond the revenge thing. I was honestly expecting Kerrigan to pursue something…more by the third act of the game. Frankly, it had no bearing with the big picture. Mengsk should have been defeated by the communications leak in Wings Of Liberty, but it turned out that the whole plot line was filler because Mengsk held onto power somehow. His propaganda machine must be equivalent to his industrial base, which magically turned Korhal into a sprawling Megalopolis after a devastating battle 3 years ago. Based on pattern recognition, I'm certain that whatever happens at the end of Void will nothing to do with the plot line the game pursues up till that point, because why wouldn't Blizzard go 3 for 3?


Really you have a point. The only time we see the good guy aspect with her is when she allows valarian and raynor to evacuate the civilians from korhal before she tears it apart, and also when she shows mercy to the retreating dominion soldiers after she kills warfield.


Only way she could be truly considered a good guy is if in void we learn she targeted military complexes only and left all the poor innocents NOT employed to protect mengsk alone. But thats unlikely as every time we see a cinematic where more queens rejoin the hive we see them fully engulf planets on kerrigans orders. So unless all those worlds were military equivalents of coruscant, instead of one big city they are one big military outpost, she was pretty damn ruthless and not heroic in any real way. She was out for revenge, not to be a hero.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
Well, Emma Frost herself hasn't really been a villain for...frack me, is it really that long...? about twenty years.

Really? Wow. That's about when I dropped out of reading X-titles, so clearly I missed a lot.



As for other female villains, for sheer force of character one should mention Mallory, a starship captain from Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh.

She's not entirely a villain, owing to complex maneuvers in the later part of the book, but she's no angel, and she reappears in several other Alliance-Union novels as a decidedly menacing figure.

--At least, she always seemed that way to me. CJ and I had a bit of a discussion about that at one point; evidently CJ sees Mallory rather differently than I do. I'm still giving Mallory a strong vote for villain, on the grounds that changing allegiances (repeatedly) is not always evidence for a true change of heart.

[Ranxerox]

China White from Arrow.

Strife from Wonder Woman. Yes, I know that combat isn't her normal MO, but as an Olympian I'm sure she could break some mortal necks if it suited her ends.

[Talya]

I don't know if the contest is decided by a vast margin. The conclave attempts genocide against one of its own peoples for the sake of conformity, and dooms their home world to the Zerg thanks to pressing a brutal civil war based on millennia old racism. Regardless, I still would object any attempt at justification. Kerrigan really can't be whitewashed so easily, because in HotS, she still kills billions of people who just happen to be living on the planets she has her queens attack. Mengsk and his regime might be gutter trash, but not everyone who lived on the Dominion's worlds really had a choice in the matter. So she still seems pretty evil.

Killing the Emperor was sort of pointless beyond the revenge thing. I was honestly expecting Kerrigan to pursue something…more by the third act of the game. Frankly, it had no bearing with the big picture. Mengsk should have been defeated by the communications leak in Wings Of Liberty, but it turned out that the whole plot line was filler because Mengsk held onto power somehow. His propaganda machine must be equivalent to his industrial base, which magically turned Korhal into a sprawling Megalopolis after a devastating battle 3 years ago. Based on pattern recognition, I'm certain that whatever happens at the end of Void will nothing to do with the plot line the game pursues up till that point, because why wouldn't Blizzard go 3 for 3?

Deaths in war don't need justification. We've gotten soft in recent decades. We don't understand, anymore, that civilians populations have always been legitimate targets when engaged in total war. Look at world war 2. It's easy to focus on the axis powers and their atrocities, but few people hold the allies to account for Dresden, or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki (though more do than for Dresden. Which is kinda funny, because more died at Dresden.)

[Tom Tearcamel]

I agree with Metahuman1 Jim Butcher's Dresden Files has great female villains. Faery Queens and their handmaidens; Deadly Vampires from each of the three main courts (God is Mavra Creepy); Lady Demon-knights with Fallen Angels riding shotgun; And a body-hopping Necromancer with evil dimples. To list a few. Harry does tend to float in an uneasy Frenemy status with several of the villianesses but don't hold that against him them. (Hold it against Harry all you want.) :smallredface:

Also, Lady Aquitainus Invidia from Butcher's Codex Alera series is pretty fantastic. Think Lady Macbeth as an elemental mage with Avatar Aang level powers plus shapeshifting, invisibility, and other useful stuff. :smallcool:

[MLai]

I thought Talya was being humorous when she started talking about Kerrigan being a messiah, like she was sarcastically criticizing Blizzard's retconning. But now I see she's 100% serious. :smalleek:
But then I shouldn't be surprised seeing as how her comments in the Hobbit thread made me fall out of my chair as well. Is there a way I can subscribe to a particular forum poster? She makes my life interesting.

Say, Talya, in addition to the SC2 games, have you played the SC1 games? Or at least watched all of the cinematics? This is not a trap; I'm just wondering.

[Avilan the Grey]

Deaths in war don't need justification.

This is 100% bull****.

[The_Snark]

Deaths in war don't need justification. We've gotten soft in recent decades. We don't understand, anymore, that civilians populations have always been legitimate targets when engaged in total war. Look at world war 2. It's easy to focus on the axis powers and their atrocities, but few people hold the allies to account for Dresden, or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki (though more do than for Dresden. Which is kinda funny, because more died at Dresden.)

In which case, the decision to go to war needs justification. A really good justification, if you're going all-out like this.

[Killer Angel]

About the OP: do the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad, count?


This is 100% bull****.

Only recently. In the past, the justification for war casualties (even civilian ones, including various atrocities), was "because I can".
What kind of justification do we have for the sack of Rome?
And I don't really want to discuss the hypocrisies regarding WWII, because it would really be against the forum rules.

[Avilan the Grey]

Only recently. In the past, the justification for war casualties (even civilian ones, including various atrocities), was "because I can".

Yes, but I am TALKING about "now". And it's a GOOD thing.

[Yora]

People have mentioned GLaDOS, but as cool as she is, she's still just the comedic little sister of SHODAN.

[MLai]

People have mentioned GLaDOS, but as cool as she is, she's still just the comedic little sister of SHODAN.
Yes but who would you actually ask out on a date, huh?
(If you're a robot. That dates.)

Yes, but I am TALKING about "now". And it's a GOOD thing.
Yes but she's right. Life isn't fair, and if you're the one with the bigger army that is its own justification.
However, I don't see how that makes Kerrigan not a villain?

[Killer Angel]

Yes, but I am TALKING about "now". And it's a GOOD thing.

Then, of course, I agree 100%. :smallsmile:

[masamune1]

Deaths in war don't need justification. We've gotten soft in recent decades. We don't understand, anymore, that civilians populations have always been legitimate targets when engaged in total war. Look at world war 2. It's easy to focus on the axis powers and their atrocities, but few people hold the allies to account for Dresden, or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki (though more do than for Dresden. Which is kinda funny, because more died at Dresden.)

During World War 2 there was numerous and frequent internal debates about the legitimacy of targeting civilians and about the morality of the war in general. In hindsight we now know that targeting civilian populations was a bad move because the war would have been over faster if they targeted military installations and munitions factories and the like, but at the time bombing campaigns were in there infancy and the commanders didn't have a very good grasp of air force strategy, not to mention how inaccurate bombing was at the time (and still is) so planes often missed their targets.

And no, fewer died at Dresden. A lot fewer. The figure of 200,000 people comes from Joseph Goebbels, and has been disproved. The real figure was somewhere in the 20,000 region.

[Kato]

I'm not sure the mods will like where this off-topic discussion could be heading...


I'm not quite sure what the goal off the thread is. I guess the first point was to find out whether there are many instances of what the OP was looking for but by now we found a lot... Though I will admit many of the more well-known examples are part of certain categories of media... Large scale Hollywood blockbusters or even well known books or tv series are fewer than others, it seems.

[Rogue Shadows]

I can think of several from Conan movies and books. Salome from "A Witch Shall Be Born" and Tascela from "Red Nails" are the ones that spring immediately to mind, the latter especially driving the entire plot of the last Conan story Howard wrote.

And on a related note, Akivasha from the movie Kull the Conqueror (which was originally supposed to be Conan the Conqueror, but Kevin Sorbo didn't want to play a role that another actor was already known for, so they changed the movie to star Kull, an earlier Howard creation), who was based on a throwaway vampire character from Howard's only Conan novel, The Hour of the Dragon. In Kull she gets top billing.

[Rogue Shadows]

(though more do than for Dresden. Which is kinda funny, because more died at Dresden.)

I'd like to take this time to point out that optimistic Allied projections for the invasion of Japan suggested up to half a million American dead and more than ten times that Japanese. They were using Iwo Jima and Okinawa as models; and the generals planning these things had no knowledge of the nukes.

A blockade of Japan, meanwhile, would have cost at least hundreds of thousands if not millions in starvation, as Japan was not capable of feeding its own population, which is far too large for the island by itself to support.

The Soviets were itching to invade Japan themselves, and the Soviets were not noted for low casualties inflicted on either themselves or their enemies.

And lastly, the Japanese were not surrendering, and were legitimately planning to fight a guerrilla war to the last man, North Korean style, with farming tools if necessary given that ammunition and guns were running critically low. Now, how long this would have gone on for before surrender, can't be known, but the point is that it was plan A for Japan, and again, using Iwo Jima and Okinawa as models, there was no reason to think that the Japanese were not literally willing to let themselves be killed dozens at a time for even a single American death.

In sum...as terrible and horrible and disgusting as it seems, dropping the two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagaski, by all estimations and by every piece of evidence we have available to us today and at the time, resulted in the least overall deaths. Bearing that in mind, how can it possibly be called a war crime?

[Metahuman1]

I should have thought of this one sooner, but, G.I. Joe features The Baroness. In many itenerations she's quite dangerous in her own right.

[FinnDarkblade]

People have mentioned GLaDOS, but as cool as she is, she's still just the comedic little sister of SHODAN.

This, so much this. Shodan is creepy as heck.

[Aotrs Commander]

Only recently. In the past, the justification for war casualties (even civilian ones, including various atrocities), was "because I can".
What kind of justification do we have for the sack of Rome?

I think that it's more the case that it's always been true, but it's just nobody before the modern period cared - the fact that everybody did commit regular atrocities before the modern period was never really right or justified, though it was normal modus operandi.

(And, yes, I'm still saying this as LE Lich with little to no regard for human - or any other - life... Atrocities are just wasteful and the Aotrs is nothing if not efficient.)

I'd say humans have gotten better, but I'm unable to type that sentence without breaking down into hysterical laughter...



Have we mentioned any of the various female villains from Power Rangers? I mena, most of them (Andromeda aside, and they turned her good *sigh*) were pretty rubbishly competant, but they were at least villains...

[Killer Angel]

I've got another one!

Savages, by Oliver Stone: Elena Sánchez (Salma Hayek) is the leader of a drug cartel.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smallconfused: ... Does Mother Brain count? I mean, I haven't played any of the Metroid games past Fusion, but I think you're supposed to refer to that one with the feminine pronoun.

[The Fury]

The Boss (The Joy) from Metal Gear Solid 3?



Cersei is part of the political arc of ASoIaF, which is arguably more important than the face stabbing stuff.


I'd generally agree with this. In this series the characters with political power are generally the most dangerous out of all of them. It's true that Brienne can crush someone's head in with a mace and Arya would happily stab just about anyone in the throat, but they're not really part of any sort of big power play like Cersei is. That said, I don't think Cersei is as an effective manipulator as someone like Tyrion or Littlefinger.

[Killer Angel]

That said, I don't think Cersei is as an effective manipulator as someone like Tyrion or Littlefinger.

The fun thing, is that she thinks to be on the same level, and even better. :smallcool:

[The Fury]

The fun thing, is that she thinks to be on the same level, and even better. :smallcool:

I know. Poor Cersei.

[Talya]

I thought Talya was being humorous when she started talking about Kerrigan being a messiah, like she was sarcastically criticizing Blizzard's retconning. But now I see she's 100% serious. :smalleek:
But then I shouldn't be surprised seeing as how her comments in the Hobbit thread made me fall out of my chair as well. Is there a way I can subscribe to a particular forum poster? She makes my life interesting.

Say, Talya, in addition to the SC2 games, have you played the SC1 games? Or at least watched all of the cinematics? This is not a trap; I'm just wondering.

I have, although it's been 15 years.

The moment Arcturus Mengst intentionally left Kerrigan to die to die on Tarsonis (not as a simple casualty of war, he could have retrieved her easily, but as a conscious act of intentional attempted murder), he signed the death warrant for his new Terran Dominion. Once she has been assimilated into the zerg, she's also within her rights to continue fighting the protoss who war to exterminate the zerg, and the terrans who were trying to use/control the zerg.

This is not also to say that the Protoss did not have reasons to attack the zerg, etc. There's plenty of blame to go around, but ultimately, in war, might makes right. The winner gets to be the historical hero.

I am far more sympathetic to Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor than I am to Mengst or his Dominion, or the old khala-following Protoss tribes of Aiur. (Zeratul on the other hand, Zeratul I can side with.)

[MLai]

The moment Arcturus Mengst intentionally left Kerrigan to die to die on Tarsonis (not as a simple casualty of war, he could have retrieved her easily, but as a conscious act of intentional attempted murder), he signed the death warrant for his new Terran Dominion. Once she has been assimilated into the zerg, she's also within her rights to continue fighting the protoss who war to exterminate the zerg, and the terrans who were trying to use/control the zerg.
This is not also to say that the Protoss did not have reasons to attack the zerg, etc. There's plenty of blame to go around, but ultimately, in war, might makes right. The winner gets to be the historical hero.
I can get behind that SC tries to have grey-on-grey morality, that there are no cartoon good guys, etc. But that still doesn't make Kerrigan a hero. She's a villain in a bed of villains. She could have legitimate personal motives, i.e. revenge against a scumbag who deserves to die. However, her method of pursuing those personal motives is genocidal all-out interstellar war. That puts her below even the Well-Intentioned Extremist villain trope.

And you say part of fighting is for self-preservation against Protoss. Keep in mind, this also includes preserving the Zerg, which as far as she or anyone knew at the time, is entirely worth sacrificing your own life for in order to exterminate for the good of the galaxy. Instead, she's comfortable with making a clearly evil and destructive species even more powerful, in order to pursue a personal vendetta.

And that is if we even buy that she's doing it out of self-preservation. In Brood War, Raynor and influential figures in the Protoss were willing to give her a chance. These are sides which are just as hostile to Mengsk as she is. If she had acted in good faith with that alliance, she could have swayed them into believing that she is still human inside and would rein in the Zerg. Instead she pulled a betrayal as they suspected she might. She shot her own self-preservation excuse full of holes; she had a choice and she made it, acting against the common interests of humanity and its ally.

This is not even mentioning the general relishing in absolute power that she indulges in, while committing genocide in her long campaign. "Civilians are expendable" may be a cynical truth, but it doesn't make you non-villainous.

[Avilan the Grey]

This, so much this. Shodan is creepy as heck.

And GladOS isn't? With her backstory and graphical design?

[Killer Angel]

I think that it's more the case that it's always been true, but it's just nobody before the modern period cared - the fact that everybody did commit regular atrocities before the modern period was never really right or justified, though it was normal modus operandi.

mmm... I could go further, and say that sometime, violence toward civilians (rape, and so on), was considered part of the regular loot for mercenaries.



I am far more sympathetic to Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor than I am to Mengst or his Dominion, or the old khala-following Protoss tribes of Aiur. (Zeratul on the other hand, Zeratul I can side with.)

To be fair, Mengst is supposed to be a villain...


BTW, can we consider a "female villain", the hive queen from Aliens? :smalltongue:

[Talya]

I can get behind that SC tries to have grey-on-grey morality, that there are no cartoon good guys, etc. But that still doesn't make Kerrigan a hero. She's a villain in a bed of villains. She could have legitimate personal motives, i.e. revenge against a scumbag who deserves to die. However, her method of pursuing those personal motives is genocidal all-out interstellar war. That puts her below even the Well-Intentioned Extremist villain trope.

And you say part of fighting is for self-preservation against Protoss. Keep in mind, this also includes preserving the Zerg, which as far as she or anyone knew at the time, is entirely worth sacrificing your own life for in order to exterminate for the good of the galaxy. Instead, she's comfortable with making a clearly evil and destructive species even more powerful, in order to pursue a personal vendetta.

And that is if we even buy that she's doing it out of self-preservation. In Brood War, Raynor and influential figures in the Protoss were willing to give her a chance. These are sides which are just as hostile to Mengsk as she is. If she had acted in good faith with that alliance, she could have swayed them into believing that she is still human inside and would rein in the Zerg. Instead she pulled a betrayal as they suspected she might. She shot her own self-preservation excuse full of holes; she had a choice and she made it, acting against the common interests of humanity and its ally.

This is not even mentioning the general relishing in absolute power that she indulges in, while committing genocide in her long campaign. "Civilians are expendable" may be a cynical truth, but it doesn't make you non-villainous.


I do not accept even the "clearly evil and destructive species" argument for the zerg. Ebola is not evil. It's a virus. As humans, we're not real fond of it, but the universe doesn't revolve around, or even care about, us. Good and evil are constructs we've invented. They are not absolutes, they are not black and white.

Anyway, I've been talking about her actions as the Queen of Blades, which have nothing to do with my earlier assertion that she is a victim, not a villain.

People seem to forget that from the moment Sarah Kerrigan is left to die on Tarsonis, to the moment the Overmind dies, she literally has no free will. She is not in any way responsible for her actions during that time. She can not make decisions or choices. She's raped after Tarsonis. They take away her identity and her self determination. They mutilate her body to make it more serviceable for the zerg swarm. Once freed from the Overmind's control, is she actually Kerrigan? (One might argue she's not, which is reflected in the Queen of Blades moniker.) Furthermore, Brood War is merely a response to the Terran Dominion's attempt to make a new Overmind, which, if successful, will make Kerrigan a slave again. Even more interesting is that Sarah Kerrigan never really had any capacity for self-determination as a human ghost, either. Her whole reality had been carefully controlled so that she would be unquestioningly obedient. She was a puppet; a victim.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Any attempts at a non-villain status for Kerrigan are purely because she's Blizzard's (and a large chunk of the fanbase's) precious Mary Sue babbu.

Original Kerrigan is a evil protagonist at least.


*edit* I know you said no anime but I just can't see this question without mentioning Balalaika from Black Lagoon.

In the in story morality she's not really a villain since the hero is always on her side. At least not in the anime.


The Terrans are by far the most reprehensible of the three races in StarCraft.

Only because they don't have the excuse of acting only according to an engineered nature.

They're also allowed to have more distinct factions, so don't really qualify as a distinct group.

[Castaras]

Not sure it's been answered yet - but why the specific set of requirements listed? There's a lot of brilliant villains both male and female who end up outside said requirements - what's the reasoning/need for such a list?

[The_Snark]

Not sure it's been answered yet - but why the specific set of requirements listed? There's a lot of brilliant villains both male and female who end up outside said requirements - what's the reasoning/need for such a list?

I would imagine that the first requirement is there to filter out nameless henchwomen and bit parts; the OP presumably wants villains who play a reasonably prominent role in their story. Not necessarily the main villain, but someone who gets a fair amount of screen time.

The second one, I'm not sure. The third is apparently because he doesn't care for anime and manga much, and would prefer to focus on other works.

[Fan]

I do not accept even the "clearly evil and destructive species" argument for the zerg. Ebola is not evil. It's a virus. As humans, we're not real fond of it, but the universe doesn't revolve around, or even care about, us. Good and evil are constructs we've invented. They are not absolutes, they are not black and white.

Anyway, I've been talking about her actions as the Queen of Blades, which have nothing to do with my earlier assertion that she is a victim, not a villain.

People seem to forget that from the moment Sarah Kerrigan is left to die on Tarsonis, to the moment the Overmind dies, she literally has no free will. She is not in any way responsible for her actions during that time. She can not make decisions or choices. She's raped after Tarsonis. They take away her identity and her self determination. They mutilate her body to make it more serviceable for the zerg swarm. Once freed from the Overmind's control, is she actually Kerrigan? (One might argue she's not, which is reflected in the Queen of Blades moniker.) Furthermore, Brood War is merely a response to the Terran Dominion's attempt to make a new Overmind, which, if successful, will make Kerrigan a slave again. Even more interesting is that Sarah Kerrigan never really had any capacity for self-determination as a human ghost, either. Her whole reality had been carefully controlled so that she would be unquestioningly obedient. She was a puppet; a victim.

That's why in story she was given a second chance after she broke the yoke of the overmind and the other guys helped her kill the threats to her rule as Queen of Blades, and she ends up betraying literally everyone who ever trusts her AFTER the new overmind project is put into the dirt. Murders 3 different fleets, slaughters LITERAL BILLIONS of her own free will. Personally. During the events of Wings of Liberty.

Was she a victim while under the overmind's influence? Yes. Does it excuse her own literal mind rape and transformation of the Dark Templar Matriarch? Hell no.

Does that give her amnesty for any of her actions during wings of liberty where there is no new overmind threat and she continually butchers worlds of innocent people.

She is not a victim anymore, she may be dealing with trauma POST victim hood (as in, the span of 4 or so years. More than enough time to say that she at least has control of her own faculties. Demonstrated by the years spent deliberately engineering murder weapons and then carpet bombing residential planets far away from her target with death monsters.), but that doesn't excuse any of her actions afterwards. She is from a military background afterall, and has demonstrated extreme emotionally strength and willpower.

Does this excuse the murder of New Haven, something done under her command, an agricultural planet by the way. No.

Does this excuse the murder of dozens of other worlds, whole sectors of residential planets? No.


Kerrigan is ineffably EVIL and saying otherwise is putting her on a pedestal she not only doesn't deserve, but also insults her own intelligence and character. You can make the argument that her actions while as a Ghost and under mind control weren't her own, but after that point there is absolutely no reason to give her a pass. And she keeps being literal evil when given the choice, and not because people were hunting her. She had the complete ability to just sit under Char and not murder planets full of innocent people. Literal tens of billions in just one in game news broadcast.

[Talya]

That's why in story she was given a second chance after she broke the yoke of the overmind and the other guys helped her kill the threats to her rule as Queen of Blades, and she ends up betraying literally everyone who ever trusts her AFTER the new overmind project is put into the dirt. Murders 3 different fleets, slaughters LITERAL BILLIONS of her own free will. Personally. During the events of Wings of Liberty.

Was she a victim while under the overmind's influence? Yes. Does it excuse her own literal mind rape and transformation of the Dark Templar Matriarch? Hell no.

Does that give her amnesty for any of her actions during wings of liberty where there is no new overmind threat and she continually butchers worlds of innocent people.

She is not a victim anymore, she may be dealing with trauma POST victim hood (as in, the span of 4 or so years. More than enough time to say that she at least has control of her own faculties.), but that doesn't excuse any of her actions afterwards. She is from a military background afterall, and has demonstrated extreme emotionally strength and willpower.

Does this excuse the murder of New Haven, something done under her command, an agricultural planet by the way. No.

Does this excuse the murder of dozens of other worlds, whole sectors of residential planets? No.


Kerrigan is ineffably EVIL and saying otherwise is putting her on a pedestal she not only doesn't deserve, but also insults her own intelligence and character. You can make the argument that her actions while as a Ghost and under mind control weren't her own, but after that point there is absolutely no reason to give her a pass. And she keeps being literal evil.

The only moments Kerrigan can reasonably be argued to be herself again (and then it's still questionable), is after the events of Wings of Liberty, when the zerg elements are mostly cleaned from her system.

You are just a computer. There ultimately is no such thing as free will, we all do as our genetic and biological makeup combined with the the programming of our experience dictates we will do. This doesn't help us operate, so we create the illusion of free will.

Once Kerrigan is transformed by the overmind, she is a completely and fundamentally different person than the Sarah Kerrigan that was left behind on Tarsonis. Biology and mental programming alike have changed. There is no continuity from one personality to the other, no more than if I removed the left side of your brain and replaced it with a computer. You might share memories of your former self, but your thought processes would be completely changed.

Now, it's possible when the device cleanses the zerg elements from Kerrigan, that she reverts somewhat to her old self. Of course, she undoes all that in heart of the swarm, but Kerrigan seems different at that point.

And I still maintain, in real war, there's no such thing as innocent people. We've lost that realization, we somehow mistakenly think we've become more enlightened, that altruism is going to help us out; that peace and harmony is somehow possible to build a stable society on. We've gotten soft here in the "first world." Someday it's going to come back to bite us, as not every part of humanity feels the same way, and our dominance won't last forever.

Nature is harsh, cruel, and deadly and survival is by no means guaranteed, or even a right. It is only by going through that crucible as a species and weeding out that which doesn't adapt that we become stronger.

[lunar2]

mother russia from kickass 2. not the main villain, but the only effective one. and certainly the only genuinely scary one. she's got combat prowess down, that's for sure.

[The Grue]

Has Kreia from KotOR2 been mentioned? Kreia is probably my favourite Star Wars villain, full stop.

[Fan]

The only moments Kerrigan can reasonably be argued to be herself again (and then it's still questionable), is after the events of Wings of Liberty, when the zerg elements are mostly cleaned from her system.

You are just a computer. There ultimately is no such thing as free will, we all do as our genetic and biological makeup combined with the the programming of our experience dictates we will do. This doesn't help us operate, so we create the illusion of free will.

Once Kerrigan is transformed by the overmind, she is a completely and fundamentally different person than the Sarah Kerrigan that was left behind on Tarsonis. Biology and mental programming alike have changed. There is no continuity from one personality to the other, no more than if I removed the left side of your brain and replaced it with a computer. You might share memories of your former self, but your thought processes would be completely changed.

Now, it's possible when the device cleanses the zerg elements from Kerrigan, that she reverts somewhat to her old self. Of course, she undoes all that in heart of the swarm, but Kerrigan seems different at that point.

And I still maintain, in real war, there's no such thing as innocent people. We've lost that realization, we somehow mistakenly think we've become more enlightened, that altruism is going to help us out; that peace and harmony is somehow possible to build a stable society on. We've gotten soft here in the "first world." Someday it's going to come back to bite us, as not every part of humanity feels the same way, and our dominance won't last forever.

Nature is harsh, cruel, and deadly and survival is by no means guaranteed, or even a right. It is only by going through that crucible as a species and weeding out that which doesn't adapt that we become stronger.

Or it could be that she was in fact in control of herself during the events of Wings of Liberty. There was in fact no mind control, and she kept doing the things she did as Queen of Blades in WOL as she did in Heart of the Swarm.

Several mining installations, several agricultural planets, and of course a protoss colony ship full of yet unborn children.

War or not there are these things called War Crimes. Things humanity has deemed as a collective mass too horrible to allow to be committed even in war time.

Kerrigan has laundry lists of these, and hitting dense population centers was something that has always been avoided by people who give so much as a rats ass about anything besides victory. Bombing hospitals, murdering unarmed civilians, and medics are all things that fall under those. Guess how many of those things she's innocent of while under her own free will? Zero.

Wanting to get back at the mean man who hurt you is not justification for butchering people unrelated, uninvolved, and desperately desiring to not be a part of anything involving you or your conflict with an angry old guy. His soldiers? Fine. His industry? Fine. I understand breaking the chain of supply. But personally chasing down unarmed, fleeing, civilians in order to mind blast them is never excusable.

Your political, and completely subjective, rant aside (as in, I'm ignoring it.) that doesn't justify anything. By accepting the term "Villain" as a criteria you can't bull**** out some "There is no Good or Evil" WHEN USING EVIL AS A QUALIFIER FOR VILLAIN.

Your reasoning makes no base, mathematical sense. You're trying to solve for X without every part of the equation being X because you deem that the numbers aren't really there and are just imagined despite having concrete effect when applied to the world.

[Talya]

Or it could be that she was in fact in control of herself during the events of Wings of Liberty. There was in fact no mind control, and she kept doing the things she did as Queen of Blades in WOL as she did in Heart of the Swarm.


I didn't say she's not in control of herself. I said she's no longer the same person she was before Tarsonis. The Queen of Blades =/= Sarah Kerrigan. The Queen of Blades is in full control after the Overmind dies, but the Queen of Blades no longer thinks or acts the way Sarah Kerrigan would have. And why should she? More than half of what made her Sarah Kerrigan has physically changed. She's no longer human, she no longer thinks like a human.


But pre-Tarsonis Kerrigan does seem to come back - at least somewhat - after WoL. In Heart of the Swarm, she's no longer acting like she did before - she acts to avoid unnecessary casualties where she can.

[Fan]

I didn't say she's not in control of herself. I said she's no longer the same person she was before Tarsonis. The Queen of Blades =/= Sarah Kerrigan.


But pre-Tarsonis Kerrigan does seem to come back after WoL. In Heart of the Swarm, she's no longer acting like she did before - she acts to avoid unnecessary casualties where she can.

That is highly debatable, given all of the actions I described in the last part of my statement were from Heart of the Swarm.

She does still chase down fleeing civilians and murder them.

Your argument would hold.. some water if she stopped carpet bombing non military planets with death monsters that literally eat people alive, when they don't poison them to death, or melt their flesh from their bones. She may have acted SLIGHTLY remorseful, but she still keeps doing it.

[MLai]

The only moments Kerrigan can reasonably be argued to be herself again (and then it's still questionable), is after the events of Wings of Liberty, when the zerg elements are mostly cleaned from her system.
The human Kerrigan, who no longer exists, was a victim. Nobody ever argued with you about whether the past human Kerrigan was a victim.
But the current Zergified Kerrigan i.e. QoB is not a victim or a messiah.
As long as she remains Zergified, she deserves all the enmity that Humans and Protoss can muster.
If she is ever miraculously completely human-ified and loses all memory of her Zerg experience, then she can be allowed to live.

You are just a computer. There ultimately is no such thing as free will, we all do as our genetic and biological makeup combined with the the programming of our experience dictates we will do. This doesn't help us operate, so we create the illusion of free will.
Actually this is a philosophical holdover from classical mechanics and monotheism, assuming a clockwork universe and omnipresent nanny-deity. Current experimentally-proven physics shows us that the universe is governed not by rigid cogs, but by pure probability. The most fundamental force underlying all of reality is a field of unlimited potentiality. Whether or not we were intelligently designed, as consciousnesses we have ultimate free will.

In real war, there's no such thing as innocent people. We've lost that realization, we somehow mistakenly think we've become more enlightened, that altruism is going to help us out; that peace and harmony is somehow possible to build a stable society on. We've gotten soft here in the "first world." Someday it's going to come back to bite us, as not every part of humanity feels the same way, and our dominance won't last forever.
Nature is harsh, cruel, and deadly and survival is by no means guaranteed, or even a right. It is only by going through that crucible as a species and weeding out that which doesn't adapt that we become stronger.
You do realize, this is classic Villain Monologue? :amused:

[Talya]

QoB is not a victim or a messiah.

On the contrary, the QoB is explicitly a Messiah. Zeratul made that very clear. She's the only hope of salvation for all live in the galaxy. If she dies, so does everybody and everything else. It wasn't enough even for her to remain just human after Raynor rescued her, she had to be the Queen of Blades.


Actually this is a philosophical holdover from classical mechanics and monotheism, assuming a clockwork universe and omnipresent nanny-deity. Current experimentally-proven physics shows us that the universe is governed not by rigid cogs, but by pure probability. The most fundamental force underlying all of reality is a field of unlimited potentiality. Whether or not we were intelligently designed, as consciousnesses we have ultimate free will.

I still do not believe quantum mechanics is ultimately all probability. I believe that the apparent uncertainty is simply a case of our lack of understanding of the rules by which the universe operates, combined with our lack of ability to accurately manipulate and measure things at the quantum scale. Regardless, even if the universe really is random rather than deterministic, it does not provide any credibility behind the concept of free will. Adding a random number generator into the computer does not mean it's not still following it's programming. It's that the programming is no longer 100% predictable. There is nothing particularly special about life or consciousness to differentiate it from the rest of the universe (except to us.) We're just a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses.



You do realize, this is classic Villain Monologue? :amused:
I always find myself agreeing with those villains in concept, though not their methods.

[Fan]

On the contrary, the QoB is explicitly a Messiah. Zeratul made that very clear. She's the only hope of salvation for all live in the galaxy. If she dies, so does everybody and everything else.



I still do not believe quantum mechanics is 100% probability. I believe that the apparent uncertainty is simply a case of our lack of understanding of the rules by which the universe operates. Regardless, even if the universe really is random rather than deterministic, it does not provide any credibility behind the concept of free will. Adding a random number generator into the computer does not mean it's not still following it's programming. It's that the programming is no longer 100% predictable. There is nothing particularly special about life or consciousness to differentiate it from the rest of the universe (except to us.) We're just a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses.



I always find myself agreeing with those villains in concept, though not their methods.

Except she's only a messiah in so much as she goes off to be a flesh wall with the swarm against the returning xel'naga at the end of the game.

One right does not erase eons of wrongs. No matter how great a right, especially when it's weighed against the fact that without Jim Raynor's help she was just as much a threat to everyone as The Hybrids were.

[Talya]

One right does not erase eons of wrongs. No matter how great a right, especially when it's weighed against the fact that without Jim Raynor's help she was just as much a threat to everyone as The Hybrids were.

I would say it most certainly will justify it, because I suspect that in the end, When Legacy of the Void is completed, that everything had to happen exactly as it will have happened, or all would be lost. The ends truly do justify the means, and always have. But it will be up to the people left behind to determine the historical legacy of the Queen of Blades, even if they are only left behind because of her.

[Fan]

I would say it most certainly will justify it, because I suspect that in the end, When Legacy of the Void is completed, that everything had to happen exactly as it will have happened, or all would be lost. The ends truly do justify the means, and always have. But it will be up to the people left behind to determine the historical legacy of the Queen of Blades, even if they are only left behind because of her.

If someone goes off and burns a home for abuse victims, and then founds one that saves just as many lives as they killed in that horrific, slow burning, fire. It does not erase the fact that they burned down that home for abuse victims with everyone in it.

[Talya]

And if that home for abuse victims was actively harboring and aiding a murdering rapist monster, and refusing to give them up?

All those in a country not actively working to overthrow its government share 100% responsibility for all the actions of that government. The civillians who support Mengst, (either directly, or simply by docilely paying their tax money) are Mengst. Once again, there's no such thing as an illegitimate target in war. Every man, woman and child in a country is a part of the country itself, as surely as the fingers or toes are part of the man. You do not necessarily NEED to cut off the fingers to kill the man, but it's a valid choice if it makes the rest of your job easier.

I said this earlier, it's been too long since we've had to endure a real war. We forget what they are like. It will eventually happen again, and this idea that war can be fought in a civilized or humane way is going to either give way to reason, or we're in for a very rude awakening (and defeat).

[MLai]

On the contrary, the QoB is explicitly a Messiah. Zeratul made that very clear. She's the only hope of salvation for all live in the galaxy.
(1) Incidentally allowing sentient life to live by going off to fight another evil does not make you a Messiah, it just makes you an apex predator protecting its own turf. Let's keep in mind what being a Messiah actually entails.
(2) The entire discussion began because we think Blizzard is retconning with horrible writing in order to erect its Mary Sue monument. So quoting a character explicitly being used as Blizzard's mouthpiece doesn't really prove anything. We have to evaluate the entire history of Kerrigan/QoB in the entire franchise, and consider why ppl are calling these turns of events as horrible writing.

I still do not believe quantum mechanics is ultimately all probability. I believe that the apparent uncertainty is simply a case of our lack of understanding of the rules by which the universe operates, combined with our lack of ability to accurately manipulate and measure things at the quantum scale.
Einstein thought that. He was wrong. More and more material evidence have come to light showing that the probabilistic premise of QM is exactly what's going on.
Also, physicists have already considered and taken into account that maybe direct observation (i.e. measuring something by hitting it with a photon, which is the only way we can *directly* observe something) was interfering with results. They had conducted many ingenious experiments which used indirect observation, and the results are still probabilistic.

Regardless, even if the universe really is random rather than deterministic, it does not provide any credibility behind the concept of free will. Adding a random number generator into the computer does not mean it's not still following it's programming. It's that the programming is no longer 100% predictable.
Isn't that free will?

I always find myself agreeing with those villains in concept, though not their methods.
Agreeing with them (in concept) doesn't change the fact that they're villains.

[FinnDarkblade]

And GladOS isn't? With her backstory and graphical design?

Oh no, I'm not saying GladOS isn't creepy. Shodan is much creepier in my opinion though. Some of that may just be due to the general atmosphere of SS as compared to Portal though. SS is masterfully atmospheric.


In the in story morality she's not really a villain since the hero is always on her side. At least not in the anime.

I would say she is a villain. She's not the antagonist most of the time, but she is a villain. Google gives me this definition of villain: (in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot. I'd say this definition fits her quite well. While Balalaika's definitely not as bad as a LOT of Black Lagoon's other characters, her actions aren't good by any stretch of the imagination. And you could even consider her an antagonist during part of the Japan arc and possibly during Roberta's Blood Trail.

[MLai]

I didn't realize there were anyone but villains in Black Lagoon? :smallconfused:

[Fan]

And if that home for abuse victims was actively harboring and aiding a murdering rapist monster, and refusing to give them up?

All those in a country not actively working to overthrow its government share 100% responsibility for all the actions of that government. The civillians who support Mengst, (either directly, or simply by docilely paying their tax money) are Mengst. Once again, there's no such thing as an illegitimate target in war. Every man, woman and child in a country is a part of the country itself, as surely as the fingers or toes are part of the man. You do not necessarily NEED to cut off the fingers to kill the man, but it's a valid choice if it makes the rest of your job easier.

I said this earlier, it's been too long since we've had to endure a real war. We forget what they are like. It will eventually happen again, and this idea that war can be fought in a civilized or humane way is going to either give way to reason, or we're in for a very rude awakening (and defeat).

Again, I have to keep reiterating that your political views have no place in this, and are not necessarily even true.

People who are not involved with the conflict are not the person who committed the evil, it is evil to blame others for the actions of others and then kill them for it simply because they did not possess the power to stop them.

Murdering the innocent who do not adhere to your ideals of what constitutes good / evil (that you didn't believe in a moment ago.) does not make the innocent evil, it makes you evil. Because these people, in spite of your justifications. Are NOT Mengsk. They are Joe, they are Sally, they are Zim, they are Bob, they are Rachel. They are individuals who were not a direct military part of the war effort, and were not posing a direct threat.

If you murder all the abuse victims to get at the criminal, you are still in fact the worse monster than the thing you're killing.

Also, there WAS an ongoing terran revolt angling to kill Mengst, on many planets. I believe it was called Raynor's Raiders.

Kerrigan still torched them.

[Talya]

(1) Incidentally allowing sentient life to live by going off to fight another evil does not make you a Messiah, it just makes you an apex predator protecting its own turf. Let's keep in mind what being a Messiah actually entails.

Except Kerrigan is doing it explicitly with the purpose of saving the universe. She knows (or feels) what's coming, and is getting ready for it. She was free of the zerg and willingly went back, not for power, but because it had to be done, as an act of self-sacrifice. She was happier human.


(2) The entire discussion began because we think Blizzard is retconning with horrible writing in order to erect its Mary Sue monument. So quoting a character explicitly being used as Blizzard's mouthpiece doesn't really prove anything. We have to evaluate the entire history of Kerrigan/QoB in the entire franchise, and consider why ppl are calling these turns of events as horrible writing.

People keep saying that, but there's nothing inconsistent between SC2 and SC1 to warrant the phrase retcon, and there is really no Mary Sue feel to Kerrigan. She's not even the main character, she's a distant secondary to Jim Raynor.


Einstein thought that. He was wrong. More and more material evidence have come to light showing that the probabilistic premise of QM is exactly what's going on.
Also, physicists have already considered and taken into account that maybe direct observation (i.e. measuring something by hitting it with a photon, which is the only way we can *directly* observe something) was interfering with results. They had conducted many ingenious experiments which used indirect observation, and the results are still probabilistic.

Only we don't know that. Seeing apparent randomness with nothing behind it is not evidence of nothing behind it. It's simply evidence that we can't see what's going on. We haven't proven Einstein wrong. We just still have found nothing to prove him right, either. Prior to delving into the quantum level, we'd never seen anything that didn't have a reason for being/behaving the way it does. Quantum particles are a first. But we're in uncharted territory here, walking blind without a compass. We're like cave men looking at a circuit board. We still know NOTHING about the field, it's in its infancy. It could be in its infancy for another century, or another millennium. Or we may ultimately lack the capabilities to ever figure it out. Science is defined by what we don't know, and Quantum Physics is incredibly interesting because we effectively don't know 99.99999% of it. Every place we look is a new discovery.



Isn't that free will?
No, for several reasons. (1) The roll of a dice is not free will. It's random. There's nothing conscious behind quantum probabilities that we can detect. If we could, we're still not the ones making the decisions for how the apparent random results turn up. (2) The random behavior of quantum particles exists only in the realm of quantum particles. Regular matter at the level that we can perceive with visible light - including human cells and such, does not behave randomly, but entirely predictably. The human brain is not a quantum computer. How IT reacts to stimuli is NOT random. There's no evidence that the randomness of quantum probability affects things at scales we can deal with directly.

Now, if you want to argue that quarks themselves have free will, and that that is the reason we see random results, I can't argue for or against that. It's not really something we can deal with. But there's no rationale for saying the randomness of quarks results in human "free will." If you want to try to come up with one, I at that point question why it doesn't also give the moon, the earth, the sun and stars free will as well...because none of this ties directly in to biology in some special way that it doesn't tie in to anything else that exists.



Agreeing with them (in concept) doesn't change the fact that they're villains.

It just means that writers lack the vision to think pragmaticly, and assume rationality must be villainy. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

Can someone make a different "female villains" thread? Much as it interests me, I don't want to derail people's discussion of what is villainous and what is not. :smallamused:

[FinnDarkblade]

I didn't realize there were anyone but villains in Black Lagoon? :smallconfused:

Rock's kinda in-between for most of the series. Garcia and Fabiola are probably as close as the series gets to "good" characters. One could make an argument for Yukio but I think she enjoyed her fall a bit too much.

[MLai]

Except Kerrigan is doing it explicitly with the purpose of saving the universe. She knows (or feels) what's coming, and is getting ready for it. She was free of the zerg and willingly went back, not for power, but because it had to be done, as an act of self-sacrifice. She was happier human.
What you're saying is this:
(1) Kerrigan becomes human.
(2) As a human, she decides to sacrifice her own well-being in order to become a monster capable of fighting the Xel'naga.
(3) Kerrgian becomes a monster, in effect sacrificing her regained humanity and possibly becoming her old evil QoB self.

That still makes the Human Kerrigan a not-villain, which no one argues against. It does not make the Zerg Kerrigan/ QoB anything but a villain.

People keep saying that, but there's nothing inconsistent between SC2 and SC1 to warrant the phrase retcon, and there is really no Mary Sue feel to Kerrigan.
The inconsistency then arises from your confusion between the Human Ghost Kerrigan and the QoB Kerrigan. The Human Ghost Kerrigan would agree with us that the free-will QoB is a horrifying villain.

Only we don't know that. Seeing apparent randomness with nothing behind it is not evidence of nothing behind it. It's simply evidence that we can't see what's going on.
I don't know what you mean by "nothing behind it." QM is not random; it's full of math. Experimentally-proven math. Probability is just a different framework for the way the universe works.

Prior to delving into the quantum level, we'd never seen anything that didn't have a reason for being/behaving the way it does. Quantum particles are a first.
There is a reason, just not the reason Einstein and his predecessors expected. It's a conceptual dislike, not a fault within QM itself.

But we're in uncharted territory here, walking blind without a compass.
QM has been the star branch of physics for the past 90 years. Without QM, our technology would still be stuck in the 1920s. I wouldn't call that walking blind.
That it is apparent we don't know a lot of things, shows much more scientific advancement than the illusion we know all there is (i.e. classical mechanics).

No, for several reasons. (1) The roll of a dice is not free will. It's random.
Basically you've drawn a circle around your definition of free will, inside of which you cannot lose.
If it can be predicted via logic/reasoning/observation/deduction, then it can't be free will.
If it cannot be predicted because there's an element of randomness, then it can't free will.

The random behavior of quantum particles exists only in the realm of quantum particles. Regular matter at the level that we can perceive with visible light - including human cells and such, does not behave randomly, but entirely predictably.
I know that, but the point was that when we started discussing metaphysics ("Is there free will?") I'm free to bring up that traditional views on free will is influenced by traditional views on the way the natural world worked. Because the universe appeared rigidly Newtonian, metaphysicists reasoned that humans are similarly constrained and therefore free will doesn't exist. But the universe is more flexible than they thought.

The human brain is not a quantum computer. How IT reacts to stimuli is NOT random. There's no evidence that the randomness of quantum probability affects things at scales we can deal with directly.
The human brain is also not a digital computer. How it reacts to stimuli is not purely dictated by logic gates. The mind is an emergent property you don't find in a computer.
Neuroscience is also allegedly "in its infancy." Without more understanding you cannot discount free will, i.e. the emergent properties of consciousness.

Can someone make a different "female villains" thread? Much as it interests me, I don't want to derail people's discussion of what is villainous and what is not. :smallamused:
We have an honest-to-god female villain here debating with you the merits of Survival Of The Fittest via Villain Monologues. It doesn't get more on-topic than this. :smallwink:

No offense intended Talya I'm enjoying this thread. Anyways I don't think you even get offended if I called you a villain.

Edit: I meant "if I were inclined to call you a villain."

[Agrippa]

Has no one considered Fiona Goode (http://americanhorrorstory.wikia.com/wiki/Fiona_Goode) yet? Honestly I think she'd count.

[Talya]

Basically you've drawn a circle around your definition of free will, inside of which you cannot lose.
If it can be predicted via logic/reasoning/observation/deduction, then it can't be free will.
If it cannot be predicted because there's an element of randomness, then it can't free will.



There's some truth to that. But I don't see it as a flaw in the argument. It hinges on the word "free."

If human decision making is ultimately deterministic, then they are not free to decide -- the decisions are predetermined. You could not act any differently than you acted, because you chose what you were programmed to choose.

If human decision making is ultimately decided by the apparent random probabilities of QM, then your decisions are ultimately determined by a figurative spin of the wheel, not your own "free will."

Both take the "freedom" away from the individual. Both make us biological computers. Oh, it's possible you can't use normal digital logic gates to determine what's going on in the human mind, you may need to invent a whole new type of logic to figure it out, but ultimately, I believe that it IS logical. I cannot be sure if it is deterministic or if it is not (my gut instinct says it is, but I recognize there's nothing scientific about gut instinct), but that doesn't matter. Ultimately, both represent a situation in which we have no control at all. In order for "free will" to exist, one must escape the physical, and venture into the metaphysical, which I don't see as a particularly rational endeavor.

Oh, as a side point, I found your comment about my villainy entertaining and quite funny. With that said, as I've been reminded of lately, while I would never take offense or report something that made me laugh, what I would consider a good sense of humor is generally frowned upon by the moderation. :smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

It seems Talya simply has a morality that none of the rest of us share; I know that feeling, though my morality tend to end me up at the total opposite of her reasoning, which is something i am grateful for.

Kerrigan is a complete monster. Period. She is a great villain, but deserves death at all costs.

[Killer Angel]

It seems Talya simply has a morality that none of the rest of us share; I know that feeling, though my morality tend to end me up at the total opposite of her reasoning, which is something i am grateful for.

Kerrigan is a complete monster. Period. She is a great villain, but deserves death at all costs.

I sympathize with some of Talya's political views regarding the harshness of Real War (TM), but discussing it will be OT and against forum rules.
I tend to sympathize with Kerrigan's actions also as QoB... but I'm a fan of Tyranids in WH40K: they're both great villains flesh-eaters.

But human-kerrigan is a thing, and QoB-kerrigan is another one. The QoB is undoubtedly EVIL: the occasional humanity she shows (for Raynor), doesn't diminish the fact that she's a total monster.

[Legato Endless]

Except Kerrigan is doing it explicitly with the purpose of saving the universe. She knows (or feels) what's coming, and is getting ready for it. She was free of the zerg and willingly went back, not for power, but because it had to be done, as an act of self-sacrifice. She was happier human.


What you're saying is this:
(1) Kerrigan becomes human.
(2) As a human, she decides to sacrifice her own well-being in order to become a monster capable of fighting the Xel'naga.
(3) Kerrgian becomes a monster, in effect sacrificing her regained humanity and possibly becoming her old evil QoB self.

Which is interesting, but that's not what happened. Whatever Kerrigan's standing moral standing, she was rather irrational throughout this whole thing.

Heart of the Swarm
The Dominion broadcasts Jim's "death"
Kerrigan goes to take control of the Swarm and throws a violent temper tantrum about his death. People die.
Much later, Kerrigan learns about the Dark Voice.
Before anything happens with this, Kerrigan learns Jimmy's alive.
She goes to save him.
She runs down to Korhal because Mensk and kills some people.
She decides she should do something about the Dark Voice.
Credits.

3/4ths of Heart of the Swarm's plot, her transformation, her reconquering the Swarm, the war, the bloodshed? It's all an ego trip. There's no self sacrificial element at all. She's been hurt so people will suffer.

Even discounting her motives, half of her actions were irrelevant to the larger problem. Killing Mensk had nothing to do with stopping the Dark Voice. It was an unnecessary risk that almost got her killed. Saving Jim is exactly the same except because he's a protagonist he'll get to do something in Legacy of the Void. But that would be justifying Kerrigan's action with out of universe story logic.

Besides, Star Craft 2 Kerrigan really doesn't act like preinfested Kerrigan. Both have more in common with the intermediate stage than they do with each other, though that's not necessarily saying much. Regardless of the lego genetics of Star Craft, it's clearly meant for her to have a character arc of some kind. The middle wasn't just a massive guilt trip. Even with the new explanation that she was trapped inside during the Queen of Blade's tenure, the artifact didn't reset her. She can't go back. She's in a new place, tainted by all that came before. Like anyone. Preinfested was horrified when the Sons of Korhal lured the Zerg onto Tarsonis. That's not really a compatible attitude to what came later.


I would say she is a villain. She's not the antagonist most of the time, but she is a villain. Google gives me this definition of villain: (in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot. I'd say this definition fits her quite well. While Balalaika's definitely not as bad as a LOT of Black Lagoon's other characters, her actions aren't good by any stretch of the imagination. And you could even consider her an antagonist during part of the Japan arc and possibly during Roberta's Blood Trail.

Pretty much. Villain Protagonist is not an oxymoron.

[FinnDarkblade]

Pretty much. Villain Protagonist is not an oxymoron.

I don't think there's ever a situation where Balalaika could be called the protagonist. Rock's almost always the protagonist and while she is usually either allied with him or neutral to him, she never takes on the role of protagonist herself. I would practically get down on my knees and beg for an arc or just a few episodes where she is the protagonist, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

[Talya]

It seems Talya simply has a morality that none of the rest of us share; I know that feeling, though my morality tend to end me up at the total opposite of her reasoning, which is something i am grateful for.


I kinda don't even believe in "morality" as a thing that exists beyond the individual. I do not, for instance, think your morality (whatever it is) is wrong and mine is right. That's like saying your favorite food is wrong and mine is right. It's nothing more than a personal preference. There's no such thing as good, and no such thing as evil, apart from our individual opinions, and none of us ever agree on all these things, every human has their own unique morality. And since humans are nothing more significant than a mold growing under a little iron ball orbiting a smallish yellow star on a distant spiral arm of an average galaxy in what may be one of an infinite number of universes...our individual opinions don't matter much.

As such, I have a hard time viewing any character whom I am sympathetic toward as a villain, even if I would not personally engage in the same behavior in her situation. In order for someone to qualify as a villain, they need to be someone I want to see lose or brought to justice or defeated. Kerrigan doesn't qualify there.

O-Ren Ishii is probably my favorite villain. She's beyond cool, but she gets what's coming to her and I'm not sad about it.

[Frozen_Feet]

I said this earlier, it's been too long since we've had to endure a real war. We forget what they are like. It will eventually happen again, and this idea that war can be fought in a civilized or humane way is going to either give way to reason, or we're in for a very rude awakening (and defeat).

The last total, world-wide war happened 70 years ago. People are still alive who fought in it. That's not a long time even in the scope of human history. You'll have a point if, and only if humanity goes without a world war for a total of 200 years. Nevermind that lesser total wars have been fought, and are being fought, even as we write.



It just means that writers lack the vision to think pragmaticly, and assume rationality must be villainy. :smallbiggrin:

There are eminently pragmatic reasons for not attacking civilian targets; namely, the first is escaping cycle of vengeance. The second and third are that their taxpayers are potentially your taxpayers, and their infrastructure is potentially your infrastructure.

Really, this side-track of discussion have left me really interested about the basis of your views. Have you, for example, read Sun Zi, Vegetius, Clausewitz or any other notable military strategist? Are you familiar with any actual theories with just war? Have you partaken in any sort of military lifestyle - I don't even mean real war experience, something as simple as conscription will do. Do you practice martial arts of any kind? Reply in PM if you wish to not derail this discussion any further.

[Avilan the Grey]

I kinda don't even believe in "morality" as a thing that exists beyond the individual. I do not, for instance, think your morality (whatever it is) is wrong and mine is right. That's like saying your favorite food is wrong and mine is right. It's nothing more than a personal preference. There's no such thing as good, and no such thing as evil, apart from our individual opinions, and none of us ever agree on all these things, every human has their own unique morality. And since humans are nothing more significant than a mold growing under a little iron ball orbiting a smallish yellow star on a distant spiral arm of an average galaxy in what may be one of an infinite number of universes...our individual opinions don't matter much.

As such, I have a hard time viewing any character whom I am sympathetic toward as a villain, even if I would not personally engage in the same behavior in her situation. In order for someone to qualify as a villain, they need to be someone I want to see lose or brought to justice or defeated. Kerrigan doesn't qualify there.

On the contrary, our individual opinions are all there is.

Anyway, I also disagree with your second point to a point (so to say)... I am perfectly able to find people I am sympathetic towards villainous. I am capable of having both sympathetic feelings, and yet realize that this person is, in essence, a villain. Of course there are also people I do not consider villains despite the author claiming they are. On the other hand Kerrigan I have no doubts about at all. She's a selfish bitch to start with, and then decides to become a genocidal maniac goddess because she has the temper of a 6 year old girl. She, like the Zerg, is vermin and must be stamped out.

[Tanuki Tales]

The last total, world-wide war happened 70 years ago. People are still alive who fought in it. That's not a long time even in the scope of human history. You'll have a point if, and only if humanity goes without a world war for a total of 200 years. Nevermind that lesser total wars have been fought, and are being fought, even as we write.

Just to chime in, but that doesn't mean that the general First World population hasn't forgotten what it's like, as Talya said. People can be incredibly stupid, self centered and apathetic to learning from the mistakes of the past in an incredibly short length of time.

[Frozen_Feet]

If by "general first world population" you refer to well-off civilians in such countries, I question whether those people are the ones who count. Look at actually military personnel and leaders.

[Talya]

If by "general first world population" you refer to well-off civilians in such countries, I question whether those people are the ones who count. Look at actually military personnel and leaders.

Actually, the civilians are the ones that count, because they're the ones that give your country the "political will" to fight. You look at how many people want their countries to stop participating in peacekeeping missions or such because they might lose a few dozen soldiers, for instance. We think the insignificant losses we experienced in the minor skirmishes people have called wars for the last 40+ years, and watch public reaction to them.

How do you think civilians in most countries these days would react to an enforced draft, and losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers in combat? Do you think any country would stand for that any more? Ultimately, it's the people who make those decisions - not governments, not generals. The people now decide what's worth fighting for, and I don't think many of us any more have any causes worth sending our sons and daughters to die for.

Anyway, was I the only one? I thought O-Ren Ishii was a spectacular villain.

[Frozen_Feet]

The "will of people" is an important factor, but looking at history, it is subject to rapid change and being rallied behind a small pool of charismatic inviduals. So I maintain that it's important to look at actual leaders of nations and military. If a nation has a well-funded, powerful military, what the average chap thinks is not relevant because they don't have the guns. You're the one saying might makes right; follow your own logic to its conclusion.

To give more direct answer to your question, Finland and Switzerland never stopped drafting, last I checked. :smallwink:

[Talya]

what the average chap thinks is not relevant because they don't have the guns.

Except...they do!


To give more direct answer to your question, Finland and Switzerland never stopped drafting, last I checked. :smallwink:

Switzerland has also never participated in a major war, of course, making it's draft somewhat easier for civilians to tolerate.

Up until 22 years ago, Finland was a western bloc country that shared most of its borders with a cold war enemy for 70 years. That influences people.

How do you think America would react today if they drafted all civilians 17-30 years old for an invasion of a country where the projection was up to half of them wouldn't survive?

Also - O-Ren Ishii??? Nobody?

[Frozen_Feet]

Except...they do!

Well, not as many and not as big ones. :smalltongue:


Switzerland has also never participated in a major war, of course, making it's draft somewhat easier to tolerate.

You might want to check your history notes on that one.


Up until 22 years ago, Finland was a western bloc country that shared most of its borders with a cold war enemy for 70 years. That influences people.

Indeed it does.

As for O-Ren Ishii, never seen that one. What is it about?

---

Back on the main topic, I reviewed in my mind several old fairytales, and one thing perplexes me. There's no shortage of evil mother-figures in them, but interestingly, very often a female main villain is juxtaposed with a female protagonist - usually a princess of some sort, either present or future. Quite often, any benevolent male figures are either removed from the story or renderer powerless - the father is killer or lead astray by the mother, and brothers are turned into swans/stones/etc. and have to be saved by the protagonist. Is anyone aware of any studies or statistics gathered about the subject?

[Tanuki Tales]

As for O-Ren Ishii, never seen that one. What is it about?

She's Cottonmouth, one of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad from the Kill Bill franchise.

[Traab]

I translated the whole maw of the void thing to mean not that kerrigan was a messiah, as thats stupid, but that it would require terran protoss AND zerg to stop the darkness. Because up till then, the terrans were working towards flat out obliterating kerrigan, and if they had pulled it off, everyone would have died. On a related note, if the zerg wiped out all the terrans, the same end result would likely occur, but that wasnt on the verge of happening so it didnt need to be said.

[Avilan the Grey]

Besides... Kerrigan cannot be a Messiah. A messiah sacrifices HIMSELF, not innocents.

[Tanuki Tales]

Besides... Kerrigan cannot be a Messiah. A messiah sacrifices HIMSELF, not innocents.

You're thinking of a Martyr.

[Talya]

You're thinking of a Martyr.

Indeed, a messiah doesn't necessarily sacrifice anything. A messiah is just another word for savior. Besides, Kerrigan already sacrificed herself for Jim. (And it's not really true love if you wouldn't rip apart the fabric of the universe for someone. :smallwink:)

Now, I suspect there will be no happy ending when Legacy of the Void is done, and there will definitely be further sacrifices.

[Legato Endless]

Besides... Kerrigan cannot be a Messiah. A messiah sacrifices HIMSELF, not innocents.

You're thinking of a certain archetype in history and other things we can't talk about on the forum. The modern Western meaning is different from that, or the military/royal implications it once had.

You're still right though, Kerrigan still doesn't qualify even in the modern sense. Running off to rescue your boyfriend is way too low a bar to qualify. A Messiah implies saving a people. It's not just a synonym for hero or badass lover.

The messiah (in both senses) of Star Craft is Tassadar. Kerrigan is a cosmic plaything with a destiny to play in the future conflict.

[Talya]

You're still right though, Kerrigan still doesn't qualify even in the modern sense. Running off to rescue your boyfriend is way too low a bar to qualify. A Messiah implies saving a people. It's not just a synonym for hero or badass lover.

The Queen of Blades is going to save the universe.

Zeratul said so.

[Anderlith]

Mab, Queen of Air & Darkness, from the Dresden Files is a pretty good candidate.

Kitiara from Dragonlance.

[Legato Endless]

The Queen of Blades is going to save the universe.

Zeratul said so.

I thought she was phrased as neccessary for the coming time. That without her they're screwed. It sounded like a prophecy hero/element/war asset as it was framed in my memory, but granted it's been 2 years and when I remember Zeratul I tend to fixate on how mellow and boring he is now compared to Star Craft 1. Semantics. *shrug*

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MessianicArchetype

It's certainly possible she will become one in Void, but she's not there yet. And even saving the universe isn't a clincher. The archetype is fairly contextual. Just being a chosen one isn't really enough as it's nominally used.

[Hawriel]

edited because it would have only fed a derailment.

Most of the female villians that come to mind have been mention already.

Aunty Entity (Tina Turner) Mad Max Beyond Thunder Dome.

[MLai]

O-Ren Ishii is probably my favorite villain. She's beyond cool, but she gets what's coming to her and I'm not sad about it.
But O-Ren Ishii is pretty much the same female villain archetype as Kerrigan. Why doesn't she get a pass too??

I reviewed in my mind several old fairytales, and one thing perplexes me. There's no shortage of evil mother-figures in them, but interestingly, very often a female main villain is juxtaposed with a female protagonist - usually a princess of some sort, either present or future. Quite often, any benevolent male figures are either removed from the story or renderer powerless - the father is killer or lead astray by the mother, and brothers are turned into swans/stones/etc. and have to be saved by the protagonist. Is anyone aware of any studies or statistics gathered about the subject?
Perhaps it harkens back to primal roots in pre-Christian mythology, where the truly mysterious and powerful forces are often female? Males often feel powerless, and are depicted as powerless, when engaged with these forces they cannot control... there's got to be a way I can work the word "marriage" into this paragraph too...

[Talya]

But O-Ren Ishii is pretty much the same female villain archetype as Kerrigan. Why doesn't she get a pass too??


I'm not seeing many similarities, other than the acts of victimization early on.

(1) O-Ren is always O-Ren. The Queen of Blades is not Kerrigan.
(2) The QoB is just leading one of three factions intent on wiping the other two out. War's a nasty thing. She's been fighting a war where all three sides have been intent on completely wiping out the other two factions. The protoss took their hatred and genocidal bent to their graves. Aiur is a ruin, if not for Zeratul, they'd be gone. Zeratul leading the Protoss brought them to the point of reason first, but Kerrigan's Zerg were willing to work with the others before any of Humankind's factions were willing to deal. We'll see where the terrans lie with Arcturus Mengsk out of the picture, but so far, Kerrigan's been the more enlightened ruler than anybody on the Terran side, whether Confederate or Dominion. I see her and her zerg as, so far, the most justified in all her acts, of the three major factions. I think we have a tendency, as humans, to assume that the more human-like the reasoning is, the greater the moral high ground. But it's not true, even by our standards, if we view them impartially. So far, the Zerg, even under the Overmind, have had, by human standards, a shaky moral high ground over the Terrans and Protoss. Oh, they ALL want to either wipe out or enslave/control the other two, but only the Zerg have even the slightest modicum of justification for this. Quite bluntly, "The other guys started the cycle of violence. We'll finish it." I have a slim hope that Valerian Mengsk will maintain a ceasefire with both the Queen of Blades and the Protoss, allowing Raynor's group, the Zerg, and Zeratul to work together to defeat the coming XelNaga threat. Unfortunately, I suspect blood runs true -- he'll backstab them and take humanity to war again.

Compare to O-Ren Ishii, who just runs a criminal empire with ruthless efficiency. There's no justification to anything.

[hamishspence]

Oh, they ALL want to either wipe out or enslave/control the other two, but only the Zerg have even the slightest modicum of justification for this. Quite bluntly, "The other guys started the cycle of violence. We'll finish it."

Thing is, the Zerg have been carving their way across the universe from the moment they consumed the Xel-Naga- invading worlds, consuming all their biomass, and "zergifying" selected species as additions to the hive.

[Talya]

from the moment they consumed the Xel-Naga-

Except the Xel-Naga weren't consumed, and are the real threat to the survival of anything.

[Tengu_temp]

The Queen of Blades is going to save the universe.

Zeratul said so.

Because she's the writers' precious Mary Sue babbu. She's still evil.
/repeats himself

[hamishspence]

Except the Xel-Naga weren't consumed, and are the real threat to the survival of anything.

I was going by the Starcraft-I manual: was that retconned thoroughly by Starcraft-II?

[Talya]

Because she's the writers' precious Mary Sue babbu. She's still evil.
/repeats himself


There is nothing in common between the mary-sue stereotype and Kerrigan. She's not even the protagonist.

[Tengu_temp]

There is nothing in common between the mary-sue stereotype and Kerrigan. She's not even the protagonist.

She is clearly favored by the writers, she's a special snowflake with abilities nobody else in the whole setting has, and everyone else starts to act stupid and out of character just so she can get what she wants (see: Brood War). If that's not Mary Sue, I don't know what is.

Being the protagonist has nothing to do with being a Mary Sue, unless you go with an incredibly dated definition.

[Frozen_Feet]

Perhaps it harkens back to primal roots in pre-Christian mythology, where the truly mysterious and powerful forces are often female? Males often feel powerless, and are depicted as powerless, when engaged with these forces they cannot control... there's got to be a way I can work the word "marriage" into this paragraph too...

I don't consider that very likely. These fairytales date back to medieval period, way after Christianity had already spread to every corner of Europe. It's more likely they harken back to pagan or heretical beliefs that formed contemporarily to or later than Christian beliefs.

[Hyena]

I just showed up to say that we are walking into a dangerous topics here. As much as I hate censorship, they are banned on this forum. Could we please stop?

[Traab]

But O-Ren Ishii is pretty much the same female villain archetype as Kerrigan. Why doesn't she get a pass too??

Perhaps it harkens back to primal roots in pre-Christian mythology, where the truly mysterious and powerful forces are often female? Males often feel powerless, and are depicted as powerless, when engaged with these forces they cannot control... there's got to be a way I can work the word "marriage" into this paragraph too...

O-ren isnt a bad guy everyone is trying to claim is anything else but a bad guy. Noone is trying to pretend she is a hero, or a messiah, or anything like that.

[Avilan the Grey]

There is nothing in common between the mary-sue stereotype and Kerrigan. She's not even the protagonist.

No, she is just pure evil. To the point that if she is needed to save the universe, maybe it is better the universe gets destroyed.

[Talya]

No, she is just pure evil. To the point that if she is needed to save the universe, maybe it is better the universe gets destroyed.

Kerigan isn't pure anything. She is a rather complex character. however I will grant you that the universe may be better off destroyed. So far I've seen nothing from the terrans to indicate that they are capable of choosing leadership that isn't wholely irredeemable. The Protoss weren't much better until Zeratul took charge. without kerrigan, the Zerg are nothing more than a rampaging all-consuming force of destruction (it was brought out that kerrigan's influence is the only thing that has prevented the zerg from wiping out the terrans and what's left of the Protoss.) So with the other players all having so much to answer for, perhaps justice would be to see them all wiped out, however... then you're left with the xelnaga victorious, and they make the others look like saints.

[Tengu_temp]

>complex character
>written by Blizzard

Also, justice, really? Most Starcraft leaders are evil and/or idiots, but the normal people (both human and Protoss) are just people trying to survive in a hostile world. And Kerrigan, the complex and tragic totally not Mary Sue, is the one who will either save them or dispense justice on them. The way you describe her, I get the feeling she is your precious babbu as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

>complex character
>written by Blizzard


Not really going to touch any of this, but I'd like to point out that this is a genetic fallacy. You're better off explaining why a character isn't complex then just scoffing at them because they come from a specific company that may or may not have a history of not writing complex characters.

[Tengu_temp]

I played every single Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo game in existence, including expansions - most of them when they were new. I spent countless hours on them, both in single and multiplayer. I am extremely familiar with Blizzard's craft and storytelling, and this gives me complete confidence when I say that not only are all of their characters are simple archetypes, but these archetypes also tend to repeat over their various works, time and time again. Coincidentally, one of those archetypes happens to be a who used to be a good guy before falling, and who is generally favored by the writers and at least borders on a Mary Sue status.

[Talya]

>complex character
>written by Blizzard

Also, justice, really? Most Starcraft leaders are evil and/or idiots, but the normal people (both human and Protoss) are just people trying to survive in a hostile world. And Kerrigan, the complex and tragic totally not Mary Sue, is the one who will either save them or dispense justice on them. The way you describe her, I get the feeling she is your precious babbu as well.

Any people not actively fighting against a corrupt government share full responsibility for their government's actions. This is why there are no innocents in war.

[Tengu_temp]

Any people not actively fighting against a corrupt government share full responsibility for their government's actions. This is why there are no innocents in war.

Oh wow. I couldn't disagree harder. Talk about dogmatic and judgemental.

[Poison_Fish]

Any people not actively fighting against a corrupt government share full responsibility for their government's actions. This is why there are no innocents in war.

Clearly refugees are just not trying hard enough.

[Kato]

*coughforumrulescough* :smallfrown:


You know, I never paid much attention to it but WHY are so many villains in fairy tales evil witches/stepmothers/??? Yeah, there are evil males as well but it feels like a surprisingly large number is female. Maybe it's just the prevalent idea of evil witches in the middle ages when they were kind of infamous. Or the other way round?

[Hawriel]

*coughforumrulescough* :smallfrown:


You know, I never paid much attention to it but WHY are so many villains in fairy tales evil witches/stepmothers/??? Yeah, there are evil males as well but it feels like a surprisingly large number is female. Maybe it's just the prevalent idea of evil witches in the middle ages when they were kind of infamous. Or the other way round?

Because of the Adam and Eve myth.

A woman is generally thought of as a kind, and nurturing, so to have them use that perception to manipulate others for their own ends is jarring.

[Frozen_Feet]

Any people not actively fighting against a corrupt government share full responsibility for their government's actions. This is why there are no innocents in war.

This view is inapplicable to most forms of government.

[Traab]

>complex character
>written by Blizzard

Also, justice, really? Most Starcraft leaders are evil and/or idiots, but the normal people (both human and Protoss) are just people trying to survive in a hostile world. And Kerrigan, the complex and tragic totally not Mary Sue, is the one who will either save them or dispense justice on them. The way you describe her, I get the feeling she is your precious babbu as well.

Honestly, you are reading way too deep into kerrigans character. She isnt the one destined to save the universe, zeratul was letting jim know that it would take all three forces to stop the end of the universe, so he needed kerrigan to survive in order to run the zerg. Just like they need zeratul to run the protoss. Or the raynor/matt/valarion trio to run the terrans. Because those are the only members of their respective races that could conceivably agree to work together to face this threat. Its another warcraft world tree event. If either the horde or the alliance hand teen there to buy time for malfurion to work, archimonde would have been able to claim the energy of the world tree and open a portal large enough for the legion to swarm in. That didnt make Jaina or Thrall "the messiah" or even a mary sue (Though thrall is kinda close) It just emant they all had to work together to save the world.

[MLai]

I am extremely familiar with Blizzard's craft and storytelling, and this gives me complete confidence when I say that not only are all of their characters are simple archetypes, but these archetypes also tend to repeat over their various works, time and time again.
I concur. It was interesting back in Warcraft 3 vanilla, but now it's just "Do you know how to write anything else at all?"

Oh wow. I couldn't disagree harder. Talk about dogmatic and judgemental.
I maintain that Talya has been trolling her way through this entire thread, answering everything with a villain monologue.
(That's a compliment. If I was a woman, I wish I'd come up with that idea.)

[Tavar]

No, she is just pure evil. To the point that if she is needed to save the universe, maybe it is better the universe gets destroyed.

Can you define your metric? Because I'm pretty sure that by your metric everyone in Starcraft is pure 100% evil.

[Talya]

This view is inapplicable to most forms of government.

The worst tyrant still governs at the will of the people. No government in history has ever been able to withstand a people that want to be rid of it.

[FinnDarkblade]

Any people not actively fighting against a corrupt government share full responsibility for their government's actions. This is why there are no innocents in war.

Talya, would you consider children and infants to be innocents in war? They don't really have much of an ability to fight a corrupt government.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Aaaaaand locking this for review.