Why Sublime Chord over Prestige Bard?

[G.Cube]

It seems like Prestige Bard has a lot to offer over Sublime Chord as a way to get Wiz/Sorc casting on a Bard, I mean you are casting evo and necro spells at -2 caster level, but they don't really fit Bard flavor anyways, and if you're really worried about it taking Practiced Spellcaster would soak up the hit and still give some, not to mention give you a total +6 to your div, ench, and illusion spells eventually. So, why is Sublime Chord usually the recommended way to get better Bard casting?

[Scots Dragon]

Okay, let's have a look at this, though I'm really the worst person for it.

The Prestige Bard
Assuming you want all fifteen levels of prestige bard, you're going to need to fulfil the requirements in five levels.

The requirements are being able to cast at least one first level spell from each of the divination, enchantment and illusion schools, having eight ranks of perform, four ranks of any knowledge skill, and a base attack bonus of +3, and to boot you're probably going to want to have those arcane caster levels being sorcerer-based or similar since you'll want the charisma synergy more than the intelligence synergy. On top of that, you have to be non-lawful in overall alignment.

The biggest requirements are going to be the perform skill and the base attack bonus. In the core rules, only two classes get the perform skill as a class skill, and they're the rogue and monk. I'm not going to look for others in the other books since I cannot be bothered to do so. The monk can be ruled-out to the point that you pretty much need to take levels of rogue in this case. And to fulfil the base attack bonus, assuming you're using the fractional BAB/Saves option (and why wouldn't you?), you'd need at least two levels of rogue.

The three levels left over being dedicated to sorcery would then manage to fulfil your spellcasting requirement.

From then you can take all fifteen levels of prestige bard, which would give you fourteen effective levels of sorcerer, with access to seventh level spells or so. You can probably improve that by taking levels of other prestige classes, but a significant amount of that loss is within the first three levels of taking the prestige class.

The Sublime Chord
In relative terms, the sublime chord is insanely easy to enter when it comes to requirements since you don't need any multiclassing or level dipping or any other shenanigans. You'd be a perfectly functional bard for the first ten levels, but would then proceed to be a perfectly functional sorcerer for the ten following.

In contrast, it grants you an effective twenty spellcasting levels, with access to ninth level spells.


It's less of a competition than it is a clear superiority on the part of the Sublime Chord. The one that gives you the ability to cast Wish is automatically and clearly superior to the one that gives you the ability to cast Limited Wish.

[Larkas]

I'll present another take on it:


Prestigious Character Classes

A number of the standard character classes represent very specific (if not always specialized) roles in the game. These classes-the bard, the paladin, and the ranger-might require special training to enter, training that can be mimicked by transforming these classes into prestige classes.

With this variant, these classes become off limits for starting (1st-level) characters. Thus, the three prestige classes presented below represent elite character archetypes, roles that can only he achieved through training in specific areas of knowledge and expertise. In each case, the prestige class recreates the feel of the character class, but with slight variations. Each class has fifteen levels, allowing a character who enters at 6th level to continue along that path all the way up to 20th level.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

A lot of DMs will ban these prestigious classes solely on the grounds of there being regular Bards, Paladins and Rangers on their world.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Prestige Bard has few things things that make it a worthwhile option.
It gets to IC +4 in 15 levels instead of 20 and it has potentially more spells than a bard, if you build right.
It's a 1 level dip to get unique bard spells on your list.
If you have access to Dragon Magazine it works nicely with Heartfire Fanner (Dragon 314) on a Beguiler base.

[G.Cube]

Okay, let's have a look at this, though I'm really the worst person for it.

The Prestige Bard
Assuming you want all fifteen levels of prestige bard, you're going to need to fulfil the requirements in five levels.

The requirements are being able to cast at least one first level spell from each of the divination, enchantment and illusion schools, having eight ranks of perform, four ranks of any knowledge skill, and a base attack bonus of +3, and to boot you're probably going to want to have those arcane caster levels being sorcerer-based or similar since you'll want the charisma synergy more than the intelligence synergy. On top of that, you have to be non-lawful in overall alignment.

The biggest requirements are going to be the perform skill and the base attack bonus. In the core rules, only two classes get the perform skill as a class skill, and they're the rogue and monk. I'm not going to look for others in the other books since I cannot be bothered to do so. The monk can be ruled-out to the point that you pretty much need to take levels of rogue in this case. And to fulfil the base attack bonus, assuming you're using the fractional BAB/Saves option (and why wouldn't you?), you'd need at least two levels of rogue.

The three levels left over being dedicated to sorcery would then manage to fulfil your spellcasting requirement.

From then you can take all fifteen levels of prestige bard, which would give you fourteen effective levels of sorcerer, with access to seventh level spells or so. You can probably improve that by taking levels of other prestige classes, but a significant amount of that loss is within the first three levels of taking the prestige class.

The Sublime Chord
In relative terms, the sublime chord is insanely easy to enter when it comes to requirements since you don't need any multiclassing or level dipping or any other shenanigans. You'd be a perfectly functional bard for the first ten levels, but would then proceed to be a perfectly functional sorcerer for the ten following.

In contrast, it grants you an effective twenty spellcasting levels, with access to ninth level spells.


It's less of a competition than it is a clear superiority on the part of the Sublime Chord. The one that gives you the ability to cast Wish is automatically and clearly superior to the one that gives you the ability to cast Limited Wish.

Good answer, thank you! I would like to (try to)challenge this if I could though, (Though I'm sure I'm far worse for the attempt then you are.)

You are only stating what Prestige Bard losses you, and what Sublime Chord gains you. My rebuttal would be this; why bother being a bard when you want to be a Sorcerer/full caster?

Prestige Bard offers the chance for a better casting list (and possibly higher level spells) while still staying true to the bard/jack-of-all-trades feel, and offers a lot of features**, including;

Bardic Music progression
Bardic Knowledge
Slightly higher saves*
better BAB*
Higher average Hit Dice
Better class skill list/more skill points
Bardic ACFs

All of which (IMO) offer a much more fun and versatile character!

*If I am calculating this correctly, I am self taught and very well may be determining mutliclass saves and B.A.B. incorrectly.

**Depending on how you decide to meet entry requirements.

[Talya]

Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 gives you full level 20 sorcerer spellcasting capabilities, in addition to nearly full bardic capabilities.

Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3/Prestige Bard 15 gives you level 14 sorcerer casting, and nearly full bardic capabilities.

One of these things is way better than the other.

[Psyren]

You are only stating what Prestige Bard losses you, and what Sublime Chord gains you. My rebuttal would be this; why bother being a bard when you want to be a Sorcerer/full caster?

Re-rebuttal:

http://img.pandawhale.com/82733-why-not-both-meme-5LvD.jpeg

Sublime Chord doesn't just give a bard vastly superior spells. It also:
- Advances Bardic Music
- Advances Bardic Knowledge

So you can still access many of the same benefits of being a bard while increasing your overall effectiveness.


Second of all, there is the matter of multiclassing. Sublime Chord has its own spell progression, which can be advanced by even more prestige classes - Virtuoso most commonly, but also theurge classes like Eldritch Theurge or Soulcaster.

[Pluto!]

The goal behind SC's inclusion in most builds isn't to have Sorcerer/Wizard casting along with a class called Bard (after all, Wizard/Heartfire Fanner does that even better than SC, and nobody talks about it); it's reaping the indirect benefits compact 9-level progression into 9 levels.

The Prestige Bard, even working with a minimal 1-level dip, de;ays a caster's access to level 9 spells - the opposite of the SC's usual purpose.

[G.Cube]

Re-rebuttal:

http://img.pandawhale.com/82733-why-not-both-meme-5LvD.jpeg

Sublime Chord doesn't just give a bard vastly superior spells. It also:
- Advances Bardic Music
- Advances Bardic Knowledge

So you can still access many of the same benefits of being a bard while increasing your overall effectiveness.


Second of all, there is the matter of multiclassing. Sublime Chord has its own spell progression, which can be advanced by even more prestige classes - Virtuoso most commonly, but also theurge classes like Eldritch Theurge or Soulcaster.

Well, perhaps I should review a class before I post about it, I concede, Sublime Chord is vastly superior. I suppose the only thing Prestige Bard has over SC is it's available five levels earlier, situationally better for mid-level games.

[prufock]

It seems like Prestige Bard has a lot to offer over Sublime Chord as a way to get Wiz/Sorc casting on a Bard, I mean you are casting evo and necro spells at -2 caster level, but they don't really fit Bard flavor anyways, and if you're really worried about it taking Practiced Spellcaster would soak up the hit and still give some, not to mention give you a total +6 to your div, ench, and illusion spells eventually. So, why is Sublime Chord usually the recommended way to get better Bard casting?

Because you can't take both bard and prestige bard.