[PF] Evangelist Cleric of Cayden build advice

[rayfinkle]

Can anyone give a suggestion on a good stat array for a 25 point buy for an evangelist cleric of cayden with the exploration domain?

I'm looking to buff and be the 2nd or 3rd string front line character in the group. I'd appreciate feat suggestions if possible too.

Thanks for any help!

[Craft (Cheese)]

STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

Is how I'd do it before racial modifiers. If you're human/half-elf/half-orc, put that floating +2 bonus into STR or WIS, depending on whether you want to focus more on your spell DCs (might be handy for an Evangelist even if you intend to be mostly a support character) or on your ability to melee.

Exploration's a great domain choice. Awesome pick.

There just aren't any good bardic music-related feats in PF, so your feats aren't going to be terribly different from any other melee cleric's. You want Extend Spell, (eventually) Quicken Spell, Power Attack, the usuals. Discordant Voice might be worth picking up, but its effect comes online so late and the bonus it provides is so low I doubt it's worth the feat slot in most cases.

Cayden's favored weapon, the Rapier, kinda sucks for you because you can't two-hand it. You're better just using a heavy mace.

[rayfinkle]

Awesome, thank you.

I'm going human, so I will have to weight strength vs. wisdom.

I wasn't sure what my stat array would end up being (never played this type of character before), so I was considering taking the finesse weapon feat if my dex was high and focusing on rapier. But it sounds like that's unwise.

And yeah, exploration seems great. Fits in well with the RP I'm going for and incredibly useful.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Well, if you really want to use that rapier proficiency, you could try going with building around crit-fishing with Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) and make it work pretty decently, though you'll still ultimately be less effective than you would with two-handing and it'll take more feat investment. Use this array:

STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 10

Putting that human bonuses into either DEX or WIS. Pick up the following feats:

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Two-Weapon Fighting (only get the first one, don't bother with the rest of the chain)
Butterfly's Sting
Weapon Finesse
Deadly Agility (Path of War)

If your DM won't allow Path of War content, replace Deadly Agility with the Agile property on your weapons eventually (go for Keen first though as that's more important). Get yourself a +1 Keen Rapier and a +1 Keen Dagger (cast Greater Magic Weapon on both every day to improve that enhancement bonus).

You'll have 15-20 threat range on the rapier and 17-20 threat range on the dagger. Put the rapier in your primary hand and the dagger in your off-hand. Butterfly's Sting lets you "pass" a critical to the next ally who hits the enemy in melee, which auto-confirms. And if you score multiple crits, you can pass multiple crits off to your allies.

For maximum synergy, have your ally specialize in wielding a Scythe to exploit that delicious x4 crit modifier.

[Psyren]

The Cha in those spreads seems kind of low to me; You'll be losing out on sermonic performance rounds and all but tossing Countersong and Fascinate out the window. Is your heart set on Evangelist? It doesn't seem to synergize well with wanting to be a melee cleric.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The Cha in those spreads seems kind of low to me; You'll be losing out on sermonic performance rounds

At level 1? Yeah, it'll hurt, but not as much as a lower STR, DEX, or CON will. The way performance rounds naturally scale means that by level 6 or so you'll have enough rounds to last all day no matter how low your CHA score is.


and all but tossing Countersong and Fascinate out the window

No great loss.

The real draw of the Evangelist is that you get Inspire Courage (which doesn't depend upon your CHA score at all) while having awesome Cleric casting instead of also-great-but-relatively-much-worse Bard casting, and you give up spontaneous curing and a domain for it. Everything else is just gravy.

[Spore]

I am by no means an expert, but base 14 Wisdom baffles me for a Cleric. Is it common practice for melee builds to raise their main casting stat with magical items?

[Craft (Cheese)]

I am by no means an expert, but base 14 Wisdom baffles me for a Cleric. Is it common practice for melee builds to raise their main casting stat with magical items?

Yes: So long as you get a +2 item by level 9, a +4 item by level 13, and a +6 item by level 17 (all three of which being a pittance at those levels in terms of your WBL), you're golden in terms of getting your spells on time. Your save DCs will suck, but the great thing about being a melee/support cleric is you can still be a huge force multiplier without ever casting a single offensive spell.

[Psyren]

At level 1? Yeah, it'll hurt, but not as much as a lower STR, DEX, or CON will. The way performance rounds naturally scale means that by level 6 or so you'll have enough rounds to last all day no matter how low your CHA score is.

I guess. It just seems odd to me that someone with low Cha would gravitate towards proselytizing. I just think there'd be a more thematic choice for this build, like Crusader or Divine Strategist.


I am by no means an expert, but base 14 Wisdom baffles me for a Cleric. Is it common practice for melee builds to raise their main casting stat with magical items?

Melee builds generally start with no more than 16 so eventually you have to in order to hit the higher level spells. I think 14 is a bit too low personally unless you're playing a +Wis +X race like Dwarf or Undine.

[Spore]

Thank you! I will now know how to reroll my 3.5 Dwarven Melee Cleric for Pathfinder. Can a Cleric be played effectively with a Shield and Weapon or does one loose to much damage from it? (PA is sketchy at best with that low a BAB)

I am partly oogling towards Crusader for the additional feats (since our fights are usually very short, 1 buff spell is usually what is good to use in 3-4 turn fights).

[Craft (Cheese)]

Can a Cleric be played effectively with a Shield and Weapon or does one loose to much damage from it? (PA is sketchy at best with that low a BAB)

About as effectively as anyone else can.

EDIT: I don't like the Crusader Cleric, and here is why:

- You lose a domain. This is a big hit, and hurts quite a lot.

- You lose 1 spell slot per level. Importantly, this means when you first gain a spell level you can only cast your domain spell, unless you have a sufficiently high WIS bonus to have bonus spell slots. Since as a melee cleric you can't afford to have your WIS too high, this effectively means you get delayed spell access, which is an even bigger hit.

And what do you get for this? A very slow selection of bonus feats from a very crappy, limited list, and an extremely bad ability to hand out multiple touch spells at once.

If the bonus feats are tempting you, take a 1-level dip in Fighter instead. You'll get the same spell progression delay, but a +1 to BAB, proficiency in all martial weapons, armor, and shields, and the ability to pick any combat feat you want instead of the crappy list Crusader lets you pick from. Also, you still get both of your domains.

Or, you could play the new Warpriest class from the Advanced Class Guide playtest. It's still worse than a standard cleric, but you actually get some nice abilities like full BAB with a single weapon, a reasonable number of combat feats that can be chosen freely, and the ability to apply a free Quicken to personal buffs.

[Psyren]

Note that you can use a 2-hander and a buckler, and power up said buckler with Magic Vestment every morning for more AC. So it's not necessarily a choice between sword-and-board or damage if you don't want it to be.

[rayfinkle]

So given Psyren's take on evangelist, what do you think about the choice in general, Craft? I've been thinking about the build off and on for about a week, so I stopped considering it was the wrong archetype a while ago.

Also, right now I am sitting on Lingering Performance and Improved Initiative (because I figure I want to try and get my performance going/buffs out first). What say the experts? Are there two others that would be more appropriate for first level?

[Craft (Cheese)]

So given Psyren's take on evangelist, what do you think about the choice in general, Craft? I've been thinking about the build off and on for about a week, so I stopped considering it was the wrong archetype a while ago.

The Evangelist is a good archetype. It's not better than the standard cleric, but it's not worse either. Inspire Courage really is a great support ability (esp. once you can activate it as a move/swift action) and it works on you as well, and some of the other features are pretty nice too (I really like spontaneous Suggestion, even if it is 4th-level). However, you're giving up extra spell access and domain powers through your second domain to get these, and those can be great too if you pick the right one (Tactics subdomain is all sorts of awesome). Don't listen to Psyren: I think you've made a good choice.


Also, right now I am sitting on Lingering Performance and Improved Initiative (because I figure I want to try and get my performance going/buffs out first). What say the experts? Are there two others that would be more appropriate for first level?

Improved Initiative is always an awesome choice, especially for a caster. Lingering Performance, however, is more questionable: All it really does is help you save bardic performance rounds (and even then only with the questionable guesswork of ending your performance a couple of rounds before you think combat will end), since it doesn't even let the effect stay up if you get knocked unconscious, and like I said earlier you'll soon have more bardic performance rounds than you'll know what to do with anyway. At level 1 it might help a little, but there are better choices and I'd at the very least retrain out of it later. Some options to consider:

- Combat Casting: You're a melee caster. You're going to want to cast in melee from time to time. This gives you a sizable bonus to doing so.

- Warrior Priest: Two feats in one! +1 to initiative and +2 to concentration checks to cast defensively, and they both stack with their parent feat.

- Scribe Scroll: Never, ever underestimate the power of having a scroll of a weird, situational spell on hand just as that spell becomes the perfect tool to solve whatever problem you're having: Not having to wait 24 hours can literally save lives. Those stinking wizards get this for free, but I think it's worth a feat for clerics too, even at level 1.

[Psyren]

- You lose a domain. This is a big hit, and hurts quite a lot.

Evangelist does too. Furthermore, it loses the ability to spontaneously cure, which is a great use for unused spell slots at the end of the day. You won't have much use for Command-spam at day's end.

Evangelist is also stuck with light armor and no shield unless it burns feats. For a frontliner cleric that's... ill-advised.



- You lose 1 spell slot per level. Importantly, this means when you first gain a spell level you can only cast your domain spell, unless you have a sufficiently high WIS bonus to have bonus spell slots. Since as a melee cleric you can't afford to have your WIS too high, this effectively means you get delayed spell access, which is an even bigger hit.

16 Wis (which, again, is where I think this build should be) gets you the bonus spell needed for a general spell. I agree with you that the lower spell slots does suck though. But I would still go with base cleric for this build over evangelist.



And what do you get for this? A very slow selection of bonus feats from a very crappy, limited list, and an extremely bad ability to hand out multiple touch spells at once.

How is action economy bad? This class feature gets them Mass Death Ward, Mass Protection from Energy, Mass Freedom of Movement, Mass Restoration (shortened to a full-round action, no less) etc.


Don't listen to Psyren: I think you've made a good choice.

Again, it's not as clear-cut as you're making it out to be and I think you're being shortsighted.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Evangelist does too. Furthermore, it loses the ability to spontaneously cure, which is a great use for unused spell slots at the end of the day. You won't have much use for Command-spam at day's end.

Evangelist is also stuck with light armor and no shield unless it burns feats. For a frontliner cleric that's... ill-advised.

So you'll cut into more uses of your CLW wands. That's not good, but it's hardly a big deal.

The armor thing is a good point, and one that I totally forgot about, but still... it's 1 point of AC, 2 points when he'd get the cash for a breastplate. Armor is kinda overrated.


16 Wis (which, again, is where I think this build should be) gets you the bonus spell needed for a general spell. I agree with you that the lower spell slots does suck though.

At 3rd-level spells, yeah. It doesn't hurt too much at first, but how likely are you to have, say, 20 WIS by level 9, as a melee cleric? How about 22 WIS by 11? 24 by 13? A pure caster cleric can meet these demands but a melee cleric can't without making sacrifices to their ability to melee.


How is action economy bad? This class feature gets them Mass Death Ward, Mass Protection from Energy, Mass Freedom of Movement, Mass Restoration (shortened to a full-round action, no less) etc.

First off, everybody has to be standing together. You usually don't have that luxury in the middle of combat when this will really matter. This isn't a problem with out of combat stuff like Mass Restoration, but that's also precisely where the action economy doesn't matter.

You also seem to have forgotten that you need to burn a spell slot 3 levels higher when using this ability. That means you can't use this to get a Mass Freedom of Movement until you're casting 7th-level spells, and even then only by burning a 7th AND a 4th. Throwing the "everybody has to be bunched up together" limitation on top of that, and I just don't think it's worth it.


What I'm arguing is, Evangelist is a perfectly viable choice for the type of character he wants to be playing. That's not the same thing as saying it's clearly the best choice.

[Psyren]

I haven't forgotten that you need to burn a higher-level spell; that's actually the standard for "Mass X" anyway (compare Heal and Mass Heal.) That doesn't change the fact that there are action economy benefits to be had because you're able to transfer a single slot to at least 4 people when you get this.

"Middle of combat" - yeah, that is unlikely, but "beginning of combat" is very likely. That's generally when you'd want to be dropping something like Mass DW/FoM anyway. But even in the middle of combat, the other melee at least will likely be nearby. And Restoration, at 3 rounds per person, can add up in a time-sensitive situation - compared to this guy who can drop one on everybody in 6 seconds flat.

I'm not saying Evangelist isn't useful, I just think you're being close-minded by shutting out other points of view without truly considering the benefits.

[rayfinkle]

My original intent was to create a standard cleric of Cayden with Explore and Liberation domains (after I had cleared using Liberation despite it technically being outside of Cayden's list). It looked like a pretty solid avenue, although I hadn't refined it too much. I was looking forward to being a character with a lot of utility/casting and decent supporting ability.

Then we had our first mini dungeon crawl to introduce the new players to the game mechanics of PF and it seemed clear to me I had to become more of a front line player. The group consists of a wizard, a monk, and a rogue. I'm sure there could be enough melee in there for me to take a more supportive role, but that's not how the monk or rogue are being played. That lead me to look for other options and it seemed like evangelist fit the bill in terms of the needs of the group and my desire to play a Cayden-like character.

The Wizard is the most "talented" and experienced RPG/PF player, but he's very set in his ways and the rogue and monk are new players that are working too hard to understand mechanics and rules to think about deeper strategy. So I'm trying to be the silly putty that fills the gaps.

Figured that explanation might help explain how I got to where I am on this build.

[Spore]

Which race are you (asking about racial archetypes)? And how set are you on a cleric? An oracle might fit the bill better (as some of their combat prowess stems from SNAs and do not always require actions in battle).

For me, you could choose from pure Paladin, Oradin (Life Oracle, Paladin), Battle/Ancestor Oracle, Cleric or Crusader Cleric. Evangelist sounds promising, but you could face the floor very soon on your setup.

[rayfinkle]

I've settled on human at this point, but nothing is set in stone.

On Paladin/Oracle... I have tried to steer clear of Paladins because of the personalities in my game. If I get into one more fight over "you're a paladin, you would never do that!" I think I'll lose it. Oracles I just don't like the RP that much. But if they were clearly superior to a cleric build for my purposes I would take a look and probably give it a try.

[Spore]

Forr the Paladin part: I can understand that, but it largely depends on the DM. For the Oracle part: Well, I can show you some pretty nifty builds, but in it's core, it's basically just a cleric with less flexibility, better action economy, worse saves, more skill points and more spell slots.

The picked revelations basically make the difference. Compare 2 levels of Domains with 1 revelation. Oracles are worse, but they can extend their 15 minute adventuring day by a fair margin. Because revelations do not use up spell slots. Because they have more spells. And because they have more skill points to solve problems with skill rolls.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of preference. I dislike Clerics as the DM can always take away your powers, if they think you've worked against the credo of your god. This makes them Paladin light for me.

[Craft (Cheese)]

My original intent was to create a standard cleric of Cayden with Explore and Liberation domains (after I had cleared using Liberation despite it technically being outside of Cayden's list). It looked like a pretty solid avenue, although I hadn't refined it too much. I was looking forward to being a character with a lot of utility/casting and decent supporting ability.

Then we had our first mini dungeon crawl to introduce the new players to the game mechanics of PF and it seemed clear to me I had to become more of a front line player. The group consists of a wizard, a monk, and a rogue. I'm sure there could be enough melee in there for me to take a more supportive role, but that's not how the monk or rogue are being played. That lead me to look for other options and it seemed like evangelist fit the bill in terms of the needs of the group and my desire to play a Cayden-like character.

The Wizard is the most "talented" and experienced RPG/PF player, but he's very set in his ways and the rogue and monk are new players that are working too hard to understand mechanics and rules to think about deeper strategy. So I'm trying to be the silly putty that fills the gaps.

Figured that explanation might help explain how I got to where I am on this build.

What level is the group starting at? How does the Wizard like to play his character? What are the rogue and monk doing?

If you're going melee just because the group needs a good front-liner type, consider investing in Summon Monster spells instead: They're not going to win any DPR contests, but they will do the job of protecting the squishies just as well as a dedicated melee-type character can (and arguably better if you use multisummons). The only problem is this isn't very effective at the lowest levels: You aren't going to be able to use your summons to tank effectively until about level 5 or so, when you can reliably get out a bunch of monsters with 1 casting and have them last long enough to make a difference. Evangelist synergizes really well with summoning since your Inspire Courage applies to the summons as well, and summoned creatures make great flanking buddies for your Rogue player.

Talk to the Monk and Rogue players about possibly going Zen Archer and Vivisectionist Alchemist instead, depending on what their intended playstyles are.

[schoklat]

I really think a Battle Oracle would right fit the hole you want to fill.
Get a reach weapon (+ spiked gauntlets), Combat Reflexes and go large. By L7 grab Maneuver Mastery (Trip), and fill in any other Revelations you feel like (possibly dumping a few feats for more as well).
If you worry about too little spells, Human / Half-Orc / Half-Elf can get you more than enough together with your really good Mystery list (even without cheesing Paragon Surge), and Cleric based Scrolls and Wands are always easy to get.

[rayfinkle]

What level is the group starting at? How does the Wizard like to play his character? What are the rogue and monk doing?

...

Talk to the Monk and Rogue players about possibly going Zen Archer and Vivisectionist Alchemist instead, depending on what their intended playstyles are.

We are all starting at level 1. The wizard is an elf focused on evocation. As for the rogue and monk... it's difficult to tell right now because they don't really know what they're doing. So far the monk seems to be hell bent on unarmed combat (wants to be a ninja), while the rogue is play a finesse style sword and shield (wants to be a pirate).

I have never played a build that uses a lot of summoning so that is something that sounds pretty interesting to me.

On the oracle idea... I'll give it a closer look. I guess it's just not in my comfort zone and that is making me hesitant. I know how to RP the type of cleric I want to be for the god I would choose. You tell me I'm playing an oracle and I really would be like a fish out of water. That usually wouldn't be a concern, but the DM would like the wizard and myself to set a good RP tone for the group since we are more seasoned (albeit not REALLY seasoned) and if I don't know the class it would be more difficult.

[Spore]

Oracles aren't exactly clerics. They have more freedom and more often than not not even a patron deity. They can choose their spells independant from the alignment of any deity,, and they need that freedom, because their spell choices are a bit closer. Take Align Weapon for example: Your cleric could only make your weapon good or chaotic, the oracle could make his weapons evil or lawful, if for some circumstance, you'd have to battle a mislead angel who rampages the city.

The oracle has rich variety in their revelations. Maneuver Mastery gives you easy access to a combat maneuver without forcing you down a feat path. Some revelations grant you a free armor for x hours/day, replacing paid armor effectively by level 4-5 and increasing your WBL. Others give you assorted wizard/druid spells or even an animal companion. And the curse - if picked right - proves to be even a greater edge than some domain powers.

And some advice on the other players: Pathfinder does have a Ninja class (it's a rogue archetype) and the Scout Archetype for your rogue is great (if he takes the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack feat chain, she can effectively charge in and out dealing sneak attacks: she will have a ridiculous AC to anyone who still can hit her despite the Spring Attack feat).

For your cleric: I am not sure where the evangelist fits in melee capability. The archetype really feels like the type of character that boosts charisma, wisdom and her DCs to encourage allies (inspire), discourage enemies (command and the sorts) and control the battlefield. We have a tanky evangelist in one campaign and most fights are over before he gets to buff up and wade into battle. (Still we have very bursty damage with TWFing ranger, magus gish, arcane archer and a charging cavalier).

By the way: Cleric Guide by Tark (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6dHso4mjE4WbO02366fY2YEjhP1pyR8gJvW6bqJILg/edit?hl=en)