Magic of Incarnum?

[Ralcos]

This might sound like a dumb question, but does anyone suggest Magic of Incarnum to a group that has mostly core as a ruleset? If so, how do you describe what this magic source is (I, myself, know VERY little)?

I recently got a lot of money for X-Mas, and thought of buying a book or two for the group.

[Greenish]

"Incarnum" is basically the soul stuff of the living, the dead, and (maybe) even those not yet born. Meldshapers (MoI guys) shape it into pseudo-magic items to tap into the specific abilities of those souls.

It's pretty neat.

[Coidzor]

Magic of Incarnum requires a few read-throughs or using (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916)a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128539)forum (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=576.0)-based (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723)guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153196)because while the content is largely pretty sweet, it was not well edited in its layout.

I would more recommend the Book of Nine Swords/Tome of Battle (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030) if you're starting off as pretty much Core-Only, especially if you've already been tinkering around with the psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htm)subsystem (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm)available through d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm).

If you haven't mucked about with Psionics yet, I'd say you'd want to try out psionics (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751)before moving on to other subsystems since you get easy access to so much of it.

edit: That said, the Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium are also great resources to expand the game without having to really learn all that much new material all at once, since by their nature they can be picked up bit by bit.

Tome of Magic is divided into three subsystems for the cost of one book, with the principle drawback being that about 1/3 of it is an interesting but broken (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115)(in terms of not-functioning rather than breaking the game) and in need (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2773.0)of fixing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488), 1/3 mediocre (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=498.0)but interesting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268661), and 1/3 awesome (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1102006).

[Draken]

This might sound like a dumb question, but does anyone suggest Magic of Incarnum to a group that has mostly core as a ruleset? If so, how do you describe what this magic source is (I, myself, know VERY little)?

I recently got a lot of money for X-Mas, and thought of buying a book or two for the group.

It's a good book and a good system, but a bit on the complex side compared to what core alone has to offer.

It won't introduce any wild power discrepancies if your group is "green" on optimization. I think. It does up the magic "feel" of a game quite a bit. Since a meldshaper can be a lot more obvious than other magic users.

But it is very nice, and I recommend it.

[Pluto!]

Conceptually, Incarnum is basically life force (no one's in particular) that's gathered up like cotton candy and worn in the form of funny-looking blue hats and sandals.

It's a fun ruleset to play with, but I'd be hesitant to introduce it to players who aren't used to assimilating new rulesystems into their game, both because the rules are messy/poorly-expressed and because the conceptual justification for the ruleset is pretty sketchy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For a core only group i'd suggest Tome of Battle first. It's not only easier/faster to understand but also expands the part of core D&D that needs it the most imo (melee).
That said, MoI is a nice book. It's not grossly overpowered, it's pretty unique and brings some variety to the table and once you get over the layout it's really pretty simple to understand.

[Ralcos]

Well, that was quick...

Well, they like the idea of new systems for their campaign (I introduced psionics to them through ExPH. I did talk to them about Tome of Battle, but they disliked it (they felt that it overlapped too much with Fighter, though I did try to explain maneuvers as spells for the warrior type).

EDIT: I said that they were mostly core, having several supplements but trusting them to blend well into core. For things they don't think makes sense or find something is needed, they homebrew.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, a lot of people feel that the ToB classes are an upgrade to the fighter, if not an outright replacement.
Still, if they don't like it there's no reason to force the issue. You can hold off on that until they get tired of "i whack it with my stick/sword/axe".:smalltongue:

In that case i'd definitely recommend MoI. It's fun, it doesn't "steal" anyones stuff and has a different feel to its classes to provide some variety.

[Coidzor]

Well, that was quick...

Well, they like the idea of new systems for their campaign (I introduced psionics to them through ExPH. I did talk to them about Tome of Battle, but they disliked it (they felt that it overlapped too much with Fighter, though I did try to explain maneuvers as spells for the warrior type).

EDIT: I said that they were mostly core, having several supplements but trusting them to blend well into core. For things they don't think makes sense or find something is needed, they homebrew.

Largely because the alternate subsystems are better balanced than vancian casting, and also fun to boot. :smalltongue:

So they haven't really learned just how bad Fighters are, essentially.

Sort of missing the point, really. :smallconfused: Core is the part that's most jarring to play with, due to it having the greatest discrepancies.


Well, a lot of people feel that the ToB classes are an upgrade to the fighter, if not an outright replacement.
Still, if they don't like it there's no reason to force the issue. You can hold off on that until they get tired of "i whack it with my stick/sword/axe".:smalltongue:

In that case i'd definitely recommend MoI. It's fun, it doesn't "steal" anyones stuff and has a different feel to its classes to provide some variety.

More that you can't really force the issue. :smalltongue:

Moreover, while it's not quite as dip-friendly as Tome of Battle, it definitely opens up new possibilities for existing characters between the feats that build off of core classes, the feats that open up meldshaping to non-meldshapers, and the dippability of Totemist and Incarnate for at least certain builds.

[Ralcos]

I think that settles it, then! MoI it is! I'll just need to print out the handy guides linked so the group can understand it through the jungle of editing. :biggrin:
Anyways, thanks for the help!
Any other supplement suggestions? I am thinking of getting Complete Psionics (non-overpowered 3.5 version), but I'm curious to what else we should have (besides the banned ToB).

We already have:
- Core 3 (duh)
- Complete Warrior, Arcane, Adventurer, Scoundrel
- Expanded Psionics
- Races of the Dragon
- Arms and Equipment Guide
- Fiend Folio
- Monster Manual 2
- Savage Species

[Helcack]

I really like Tome of Magic+Dragon 346(makes Truenamer's better at mid-levels) for it's ability to allow people to play caster's that are more on level with the core non-t1 classes, but Magic of Incarnum is extremely easy to dip into because of the shape souldmeld and bind chakra feats. That way you could even add it into a running campaign.

[Pluto!]

I am thinking of getting Complete Psionics (non-overpowered 3.5 version) ....
Maybe worth mentioning that this is justifiably known as one of the worst WotC D&D products that there is. I'd save those dollars or put them toward one of the 3rd party psionics expansions that addresses similar content (Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious is full of goodies; plus he's the guy who wrote Expanded Psionics, so even if you're incredulous about 3rd party books, there's at least some recognition there).

Magic Item and Spell Compendiums aren't the brightest newest content, but they're really really useful to have - they expand the base game in a really fun and notable way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've always been fond of Sandstorm.
I definitely second Spell Compendium and MIC though. Once you get used to them it's pretty hard to go without.

[Zweisteine]

The first non-core books I'd grab, in no particular order, are the Tome of Battle, the Players Handbook 2, the Magic Item and Spell compendiums, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana, though those last two especially you don't need because of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

As for Magic of Incarnum, I love the book, but it really isn't too great in the end. It does allow for some fun, though (and Incarnum rocks in gestalt games).

[Coidzor]

Maybe worth mentioning that this is justifiably known as one of the worst WotC D&D products that there is. I'd save those dollars or put them toward one of the 3rd party psionics expansions that addresses similar content (Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious is full of goodies; plus he's the guy who wrote Expanded Psionics, so even if you're incredulous about 3rd party books, there's at least some recognition there).

Seconded. Complete Psionics has an unfavorable crap ratio and a bunch of unnecessary stealth errata that don't serve the game in any way and which arguably fail because the changes they try to make are overwritten because they're not actually errata due to the nature of precedence in the primary source order of operations WOTC made.


As for Magic of Incarnum, I love the book, but it really isn't too great in the end. It does allow for some fun, though (and Incarnum rocks in gestalt games).

I think it's great, but would probably add it as the last subsystem to add if I were slowly expanding a group's library bit by bit. Well, actually, I'd probably add a Truenaming fix in last...

[Maginomicon]

All you really need to explain to them is

"It's like redirecting power on a starship. Saying 'divert power to forward phasers' is identical to saying 'invest essentia into my sword'."

Then you can simply describe that each system (meld) as having a maximum capacity that you can upgrade (increased essentia capacity feat) as well as increased total system power (bonus essentia feat). Further, each system area (chakra) can be upgraded to access a more powerful ability (chakra binds) through class levels.

[Big Fau]

One of the best aspects of the book, the Totemist class, makes for an excellent base for "creating" new monsters. Want an Elf Archer with a high mobility? Elf Totemist 2, using a reflavored Manticore Belt and simply moving around (using his Standard action to use the belt).

[Vhaidara]

I have no real knowledge of Incarnum, but I would advise against Tome of Battle if your group lacks optimizers. The floor of those classes is incredibly low, and if your casters don't know how to optimize on a basic level, they will get completely eclipsed. As in the blast mage will get out blasted and the cleric will become a secondary healer (assuming healbot cleric kind of optimization)

[Greenish]

The floor of those classes is incredibly low highFixed that for you. Yeah, ToB is hard to screw up, especially at low levels.

[Ralcos]

Thank you, all! :smallsmile:

Not only did I order MoI, I also ordered ToM (Mostly for the Binder and Truenamer). I like all of your ideas, though, and will keep Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium in mind for the future.

Yet again, thank you for your opinions and ideas.

Now, to plan the concept of a Cultist (Cleric/Binder maybe?). :cool:

[Rubik]

Thank you, all! :smallsmile:

Not only did I order MoI, I also ordered ToM (Mostly for the Binder and Truenamer). I like all of your ideas, though, and will keep Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium in mind for the future.

Yet again, thank you for your opinions and ideas.

Now, to plan the concept of a Cultist (Cleric/Binder maybe?). :cool:I'd avoid the truenamer completely. It's utterly broken, and doesn't work as intented. Even with massive optimization to get past that, it's still really weak. You'll have to go for a truenamer fix if you want to use it. There are several fixes on these boards, though I haven't looked at them enough to know which ones are good enough to suggest.

[Coidzor]

Not only did I order MoI, I also ordered ToM (Mostly for the Binder and Truenamer). I like all of your ideas, though, and will keep Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium in mind for the future.

Just remember that you're going to want to investigate the various Truenamer Fixes. I only linked to one, largely because I couldn't recall offhand the names of the two other well-regarded fixes that I've run into.

Because you don't want your friends to lose their ability to taste ice cream. :smallwink:

[Maginomicon]

and will keep Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium in mind for the future.

You... skipped the Magic Item Compendium entirely?! :smallsigh:

The MIC doesn't just have magic items, it contains things like the Item Level system (absurdly useful for rapidly outfitting a PC or NPC) and updated random item generation tables. It implements the enchantment "synergy" system and numerous fixes to items from all over (such as the wrongly-overlooked fix to the Torc of Power Preservation). It contains the weapon/armor/shield augment crystals...

I could go on forever for how much easier it would make your life.

[Rubik]

You... skipped the Magic Item Compendium entirely?! :smallsigh:

The MIC doesn't just have magic items, it contains things like the Item Level system (absurdly useful for rapidly outfitting a PC or NPC) and updated random item generation tables. It implements the enchantment "synergy" system and numerous fixes to items from all over (such as the wrongly-overlooked fix to the Torc of Power Preservation). It contains the weapon/armor/shield augment crystals...

I could go on forever for how much easier it would make your life.While I love the MIC as a whole, I hate the so-called item "fixes." Why would I even want the new torc of power preservation? The old one was really useful. The other is absurdly expensive (6,000 gp for something I'd never want to use? Really?) and only saves five power points per day. Why would I want that? And since it explicitly overrides the old items, it doesn't even give you the option of using the old ones, and anything else is a houserule -- at least, if the MIC is in effect.

[bekeleven]

Spell compendium is all right. Main issue is that its contents are exponentially more useful the higher-powered your class is.

MiC is the opposite. Late in 3.5 the designers finally realized that lower-tier classes need gear, and need cheap gear, to survive. It really helps those characters, giving them cheap access to teleportation, flight, alternate senses, immunity to certain conditions, etc. And it has the "Adding common effects to items" that means you don't have to spend your slots on numerical buffs.

Perhaps the best thing is that it's a catalog from which everyone can shop. If you buy ToB, the fighters might take some feats or even remake their characters while the wizards will, at most, take a magic item for a single maneuver or something. MiC, everyone can browse.

[Greenish]

The Common Item Effects thing is pretty neat, too. Yay for no mark-up combination items for combining the necessary with the interesting.

And for the most part, MIC items are far more affordable than their predecessors. A lot of stuff that very rarely saw play got massive discounts, with the prices much more closely reflecting the value of the item. There are a few exceptions (Parrying weapon property, huh?), but all in all MIC is pretty sweet.


[Edit]: Partial ninja.

[Fouredged Sword]

I love frostburn and sandstorm. They expand the settings and provide some great rules sections for extreme environments. I would get MoI first, and ToB, but then build out the world options for places you can send your party.

Really, the question is the following. Do your players want to build new characters? If so, get books like ToB, MoI, and ToM. These give great options for new characters and spice up the options your players have at their disposal.

If the anwser is no, then get setting books like stormwrack, sandstorm, dungeonscape, cityscape and frostburn. These provide more places to send the party that already exists, and options for classes that already exist like PRC's and items.

If you just want vanilla expansions of the game you have, I suggest the compendiums and completes. They offer great expansions that won't change the nature of the game you are playing.

Another really interesting thing that I have done is to ban the players handbook. The game can be completely played using psionics, incarnum, and the tome of battle. Binders are also fun to throw in. It can really be fun for a short game to break your players out of the molds they find for themselves without completely changing the game setting and rules. Make a world without clerics or wizards, and without fighters and rogues.

[BornValyrian]

Player's Handbook 2 was my first d&d book ever (even before the core) and it's still my favorite. It's got new feats and spells for everybody, 4 new classes (including the beguiler and the duskblade, who are pretty cool) and even rules for retroactively adding new material in with a section on retraining and rebuilding your characters.

[Maginomicon]

While I love the MIC as a whole, I hate the so-called item "fixes." Why would I even want the new torc of power preservation? The old one was really useful. The other is absurdly expensive (6,000 gp for something I'd never want to use? Really?) and only saves five power points per day. Why would I want that? And since it explicitly overrides the old items, it doesn't even give you the option of using the old ones, and anything else is a houserule -- at least, if the MIC is in effect.

Saving 5 power points per day, because of the way psionics works, is the equivalent of having a 3rd-level memento magicka that also can act as "five 1st-level memento magicka" or "two 1st-level memento magicka plus a 2nd-level memento-magicka". (Technically, you can't use this to directly save 1st-level powers since it has a minimum cost of 1 PP, but when you use it on 2nd-level powers or higher it essentially does give you more manifestings of 1st-level powers).

The new Torc in MIC is thus an absurdly good price at 4000gp. An ordinary 3rd-level memento magicka doesn't have that kind of versatility but costs 13,500gp.

If one of my players were to try to assert what you're asserting, I'd tell them to cry me a river. There's no reasonable defense. You get more versatility at under a third of the cost (albeit consuming an item slot).

(EDIT: Not intending to derail the thread here, so if you want to retort then PM me instead)

[Particle_Man]

MoI has a very flavourful prestige class called the Sapphire Hierarch. If you can't get a player to want to play one, try to introduce some an NPC's.