No way- best wizard race?

[Osiris]

I believe I've found a combo that takes a race and an applicable +0 LA template that completely negates the drawbacks of a race. Take this-
Fire Elves: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Fire_Elves
and combine it with this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b

You have the Fire Elf (OK wizard race IMO) which has a con hit. Apply this nearly free bonus of +2 con -2 dex and you can get wings! You'd have +2 int -2 cha wings and other elf stuff!

Is this possible, or did I make a mistake?

[eggynack]

Seems about right. Dragonborn are pretty powerful. You lose a good number of the minor elf racial bonuses, but that's a less important thing.

[Vhaidara]

DEX beats out CON for wizards.

Wizards have other easy flight options.

It is possible, but far from broken. Probably not even that optimal, knowing what goes around on these forums.

[Ralcos]

Well, I wouldn't say that they make the best choice for Wizards, but it's certainly an awesome idea.

[Kennisiou]

Necropolitan Gray Elf is generally better, or Necropolitan Fire Elf. The sticking point between the two is that Gray Elf qualifies for Faerie Mysteries Initiate while Fire Elf does not, meaning if the DM allows dragon magazine content (and doesn't ban FMI as being broken as ****) Gray Elf is significantly better.

Necropolitan gives them D12 hitdie and undead qualities (including no con score), which is much better for HP than negating the con penalty. Undead immunities are also very nice for wizards, especially compared to flight which, as stated, they have easy access to via other means.

[GameSpawn]

You have the Fire Elf (OK wizard race IMO) which has a con hit. Apply this nearly free bonus of +2 con -2 dex and you can get wings! You'd have +2 int -2 cha wings and other elf stuff!

Is this possible, or did I make a mistake?

You made a small mistake: the "mechanics of rebirth" sidebar referenced in the link explains what you keep and what you lose from your original race, and the other elf stuff is among the things you lose. So you get +2 int, -2 cha, and the dragonborn racial traits. Not bad, but hardly overpowered.

[Greenish]

You made a small mistake: the "mechanics of rebirth" sidebar referenced in the link explains what you keep and what you lose from your original race, and the other elf stuff is among the things you lose.Maybe he meant stuff like elf wizard sub levels (which you'd get to keep, I think).

Still, you should be able to fit Arctic (Dr #306) in there, too, for +2 Int, +2 Con, -4 Cha racial mods. Just don't get Ego Whipped. :smalltongue:

[Invader]

Maybe he meant stuff like elf wizard sub levels (which you'd get to keep, I think).

Still, you should be able to fit Arctic (Dr #306) in there, too, for +2 Int, +2 Con, -4 Cha racial mods. Just don't get Ego Whipped. :smalltongue:

Just add on magic blooded for the typical magical-artic-fire-dragon-elf, races like this make up at least 75% of the playgrounds populations lol.

[ArqArturo]

Humans are best, or Gray Elves.

[Invader]

Humans are best, or Gray Elves.

Yeah I'm not too keen on sacrificing dex for a con bonus myself.

[Kennisiou]

Yeah I'm not too keen on sacrificing dex for a con bonus myself.

Hence necropolitan gray elf/necropolitan fire elf. You negate the con penalty, keep the dex and int benefits, and just lose some str or cha. Absolutely amazing.

[Metahuman1]

What I wanna know is can fire creature with the +2 Int and -2 Cha be stacked with Grey elf?

If so, do that, tack on Magic Blooded, and then Necropolitan. Snag Fearie Mysteries Initiate and Keen Intellect.

[Kennisiou]

Fire Elves are one of the elemental races from unearthed arcana. It's not a template that gets applied to things, it's just another version of the base elf race. So sadly they don't stack.

[Vortenger]

Constitution does not have to be too major a concern, as all it governs is Fort saves and HP. HP can be fixed with the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat. Fort saves can be bumped through saves gear, a feat, location,etc. and negated either 1/encounter with a Diamond Mind Maneuver item, or permanently be being either Necropolitan (suggested) or Wyrwood (PF only).

Not for use in every game but great for the games you can

[GameSpawn]

Maybe he meant stuff like elf wizard sub levels (which you'd get to keep, I think).

Still, you should be able to fit Arctic (Dr #306) in there, too, for +2 Int, +2 Con, -4 Cha racial mods. Just don't get Ego Whipped. :smalltongue:

Point taken. Yes, you're still an elf for the purposes of prerequisites, so you can still take the racial substitution levels (and you also keep your favored class, for the .01% of games that use that rule).

[Psyren]

Seconding Kennisou, Necropolitage Grey Elf beats Dragonborn Fire Elf in my eyes. Of course, both are pretty thematic choices for your wizard.

[Vaz]

DEX beats out CON for wizards.

Wizards have other easy flight options.

It is possible, but far from broken. Probably not even that optimal, knowing what goes around on these forums.

You get Natural Telepathy for easy Mindsight and then Polymorphing into a Spellweaver for 1000 mile mindsight.

[Amphetryon]

DEX beats out CON for wizards.

Wizards have other easy flight options.

It is possible, but far from broken. Probably not even that optimal, knowing what goes around on these forums.

I have no doubt this echoes your experience. In my experience, builds in which DEX is more important than CON are the exception, not the rule, regardless of Class.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm still a big fan of Primordial Menta Cyclopeans with -4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha, skill bonuses to Spellcraft and UMD, choice of three SLAs at will, including invisibility, and a minor bonus to SLA caster level. Slap on Arctic and you are good to go.

[Vhaidara]

You get Natural Telepathy for easy Mindsight and then Polymorphing into a Spellweaver for 1000 mile mindsight.

Natural telepathy? Where does that come from?

[Draz74]

Humans are best, or Gray Elves.

Strongheart Halfling > Human, no? Or am I forgetting a Human-only feat or something that is considered optimal?

[tyckspoon]

Strongheart Halfling > Human, no? Or am I forgetting a Human-only feat or something that is considered optimal?

For a Wizard, probably; the Dex bonus is good, Small size is generally preferable for a caster (AC bonus and to-hit bonus that stack with dang near everything), spells largely don't care about your size, and Wizards usually aren't so hard up for skill points that they really care about giving that up.

There are some noteworthy Human-only things (Able Learner feat and the Chameleon prestige class are probably the most significant) but I don't think there are any that a Wizard much cares about.

[Zaq]

Gray elf is about as good as you get if you like Elven Generalist. If you don't want to be a generalist, human is better unless/until DCFS is online, at which point you really want to be some kind of elf. And arguably, with no DCFS, human's better even for generalists, since feats are hugely important. Especially if your PrC of choice requires any.

I'm pretty sure that going dragonborn removes any bonus feats you get from your race, and to me, feats beat stats. But I guess that's assuming a few things about starting level and desired op level.

Oh, also, races with a weird type (elans, neraphim, etc.) are great in the early game for Alter Self shenanigans. Late game it won't matter, but it's relevant for longer than you might think.

[Draz74]

For a Wizard, probably; the Dex bonus is good, Small size is generally preferable for a caster (AC bonus and to-hit bonus that stack with dang near everything), spells largely don't care about your size, and Wizards usually aren't so hard up for skill points that they really care about giving that up.

There are some noteworthy Human-only things (Able Learner feat and the Chameleon prestige class are probably the most significant) but I don't think there are any that a Wizard much cares about.

Right; the whole comment was within the thread's Wizard-context. And I don't think I've ever even considered taking Able Learner and/or Chameleon on a Wizard. (Psion/Chameleon, on the other hand, can be quite fun ...)

[Kennisiou]

For wizard the best races tend to be Necropolitan Gray/Fire Elf, Dragonwrought Kobold, Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, Human, Non-necropolitan gray/fire elf, In that order (although I'm probably forgetting something). Whisper Gnome is often considered better than strongheart halfling just because the gnome racial benefits are a lot better than whatever bonus feat you're picking up at level one, usually. Without some way of negating the fire/gray elf con penalty, you generally are outperformed by humans. Kobold may not be as good as I'm giving it credit for.

Also, it is worth noting there's one advantage that Human has over strongheart halfling: 30 base movespeed. With the many movement modes accessible to Wizard, many of which are not based on base movespeed, this stops being important, but at early levels the wizard definitely appreciates it.

[Metahuman1]

So, quick question on Necropolitan. Does it full out remove the need to make fort saves? Cause if so, yeah, that's pretty hard to top on top of removing the con stat from play and giving a d12 hit die.

[Aquillion]

Necropolitan gives them D12 hitdie and undead qualities (including no con score), which is much better for HP than negating the con penalty. Undead immunities are also very nice for wizards, especially compared to flight which, as stated, they have easy access to via other means.Plus this means you can dump CON and put the points elsewhere. And if your DM is daft enough to let you actually use Faerie Mysteries Initiate, you're going to probably have the highest HP total in your entire party anyway!


So, quick question on Necropolitan. Does it full out remove the need to make fort saves? Cause if so, yeah, that's pretty hard to top on top of removing the con stat from play and giving a d12 hit die.No, but many of the common things that require fort saves do not work on Undead for other reasons (poisons, diseases, negative energy, death effects, etc.)

Disintegrate is the big exception, which is part of why it's often considered an undead-killer. Luckily there are various ways to raise your saves -- or you can put the points you would have put in Con into Dex to raise your touch AC and avoid getting hit by it in the first place.

[Kennisiou]

Additionally, you have immunity to death from massive damage as an undead iirc, which also requires a fort save.

But yeah, necropolitan wizards are a tad weak against the few fort effects that they're not immune to. You have non-fort means of countering all of them, though, so if you do things like pump your touch AC via dex, luck, dodge, and defelection effects, grabbing spell resistance, getting immunities... you have means at your disposal.

[animewatcha]

What I wanna know is can fire creature with the +2 Int and -2 Cha be stacked with Grey elf?



Logically, no. I asked it in a past RAW Q&A and the answer was 'book doesn't say either way'. So ask your DM. If yes, 'somehow work it into your backstory' and maybe pull off being more blunt and what not than either race normally.

[G.Cube]

I'm still a big fan of Primordial Menta Cyclopeans with -4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha, skill bonuses to Spellcraft and UMD, choice of three SLAs at will, including invisibility, and a minor bonus to SLA caster level. Slap on Arctic and you are good to go.


Where are you finding a playable Cyclops? I beg of you!

[Chronos]

All creatures that lack a con score (including undead, almost all constructs, and deathless if you use them) are categorically immune to anything which requires a Fort save and which can't affect objects. Most things with Fort saves can't affect objects, so undead are immune to them, but there are few things that can still hit them, such as Disintegrate, Polymorph Any Object, and Blistering Radiance.

[TuggyNE]

Necropolitan gives them D12 hitdie and undead qualities (including no con score), which is much better for HP than negating the con penalty.

That's dubious, since starting with 14 Con (12 with -2 penalty, removed by Dragonborn) and adding +6 item will give you 139 HP average at level 19 vs 129 HP average at level 19 for Necropolitan. And that's not counting tomes. Of course, that assumes no FMI, possibly because you or the DM are a bit squeamish about the implications.

[animewatcha]

Where are you finding a playable Cyclops? I beg of you!

dragon mag 323 or 325. can't remember which atm.

[Kennisiou]

That's dubious, since starting with 14 Con (12 with -2 penalty, removed by Dragonborn) and adding +6 item will give you 139 HP average at level 19 vs 129 HP average at level 19 for Necropolitan. And that's not counting tomes. Of course, that assumes no FMI, possibly because you or the DM are a bit squeamish about the implications.

Don't assume FMI then. Assume Mind over body. Int modifier to level 1 HP should mean more than +10 health by the time you hit level 19, outdoing the average. The +1 HP per metamagic feat will help widen the gap a tad more. And nobody really looks at Mind over Body as being a feat to make DMs squemish (except for DMs that are true sticklers for setting-based feat requirements).

[TuggyNE]

Don't assume FMI then. Assume Mind over body. Int modifier to level 1 HP should mean more than +10 health by the time you hit level 19, outdoing the average. The +1 HP per metamagic feat will help widen the gap a tad more. And nobody really looks at Mind over Body as being a feat to make DMs squemish (except for DMs that are true sticklers for setting-based feat requirements).

You're not selling this very hard, you know; Necropolitan + first-level regional feat = 0-10 HP more than featless non-race-specific* default HP. That's a far cry from being "much better", especially since a non-Necropolitan can get the same feat!


* Most races have no Con penalty, so while the specific case used Dragonborn + elf, the same would apply to humans, halflings, etc.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm still a big fan of Primordial Menta Cyclopeans with -4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha, skill bonuses to Spellcraft and UMD, choice of three SLAs at will, including invisibility, and a minor bonus to SLA caster level. Slap on Arctic and you are good to go.

Which is of course, still and once again illegal as the Menta Cyclopeans are humanoids. You can arguably use the +0 LA Half-Giants from Complete Psion for this however.

[Darth Stabber]

Deep imaskari are pretty decent if you avoid ranged touch attacks (especially if they are dragon born).

Illumians are nice if you plan to multiclass, probably better.

Necropolitans are better 99% of the time, 100% of the time if you allow iotfm. In fact those two are bonkers together, to the point where I as a gm would drop the banhammer so hard and fast it would make your head spin.
I would offer more coherent Analysis but I am too drunk to type well on my tablet, though if I remember tomorrow I will offer better reasoning.

[animewatcha]

Which is of course, still and once again illegal as the Menta Cyclopeans are humanoids. You can arguably use the +0 LA Half-Giants from Complete Psion for this however.

While it doesn't give it as racial traits, the cyclopeans ( both types ) are referred as giants via fluff.

[Just to Browse]

Indeed, no racial type is mentioned (surprise). The half-giant racial class, with its explicitly-allowed multiclassing, is really the best way to go.

EDIT: Necropolitans are... eh. At a certain point, you can just have +5 Constitution and have more HP, and the immunities are nice but absolutely not worth the instaloss to clerics of pelor.

[TypoNinja]

Dragonborn could potentially cramp your style quite a bit. That little blurb you linked doesn't mention it, but the source book for Dragonborn does. There is an RP requirement.

You ask Bahamut to transform you, and he'll also revoke the power (which you may not live through) if he thinks you aren't holding up your end of the deal.

Dragonborn are Paladins of Bahamut in his fight against Tiamat. They dedicate their lives to that goal. If that's not what you plan on doing with the character Dragonborn is a bad choice.

[Darth Stabber]

EDIT: Necropolitans are... eh. At a certain point, you can just have +5 Constitution and have more HP, and the immunities are nice but absolutely not worth the instaloss to clerics of pelor.
A +5 CON is a significant investment of build resources, and wizards have much better uses for those. With turn resist and a few bonuses here and there that aren't too much effort you needn't fear being turned/destroyed/rebuked/commanded by any cleric of a reasonable cr, and ABSOLUTELY worth it. Throw in keen intellect and iotfm and its one of the sharpest chedders that does not require kobold. I really don't know where you are getting your info, but it does not jibe with any of my experiences in any way. Even with out the busted feats, it behooves any non-good wizard to at least consider it.

[Just to Browse]

A +5 CON is a significant investment of build resources, and wizards have much better uses for those. With turn resist and a few bonuses here and there that aren't too much effort you needn't fear being turned/destroyed/rebuked/commanded by any cleric of a reasonable cr, and ABSOLUTELY worth it. Throw in keen intellect and iotfm and its one of the sharpest chedders that does not require kobold. I really don't know where you are getting your info, but it does not jibe with any of my experiences in any way. Even with out the busted feats, it behooves any non-good wizard to at least consider it.

+5 Con is magic item's/bear's endurance, plus +5 inherent Constitution from genie's granting your wishes. You get that around level 11 with far less investment than all the turn resist you're going to have to pick up.

As far as turn resistance goes, you need something in the range of +10 before a cleric would even consider not spamming it to beat you up, because they are rolling 2d6+lvl+Cha, and you're a creature with class levels. Even when you start beating out their average success rate, they're still pretty inclined to try and turn you because that 10-minute SoL is just amazing. And +10 TR in items is stupidly expensive, probably more so than a +6 Con item.

You probably haven't run into it because a lot of people don't use turning rules since they're junk, but such a hard counter in the form of a commonly-used class is a real turn off for anyone trying to be undead.

[Darth Stabber]

+5 Con is magic item's/bear's endurance, plus +5 inherent Constitution from genie's granting your wishes. You get that around level 11 with far less investment than all the turn resist you're going to have to pick up.

As far as turn resistance goes, you need something in the range of +10 before a cleric would even consider not spamming it to beat you up, because they are rolling 2d6+lvl+Cha, and you're a creature with class levels. Even when you start beating out their average success rate, they're still pretty inclined to try and turn you because that 10-minute SoL is just amazing. And +10 TR in items is stupidly expensive, probably more so than a +6 Con item.

You probably haven't run into it because a lot of people don't use turning rules since they're junk, but such a hard counter in the form of a commonly-used class is a real turn off for anyone trying to be undead.

1) if they get off more than one attempt you are the failure. They should be dead or incapacitated before the second one comes up.

2) you get 4 turn resist from necropolitan, and another 4 if you are really choosey about who performs the rite of crucimigration on you (and you should be).

3). Even with a good con your fort saves are crappy, may as well clear most of the dependence on it.

4) if you are recognizable as undead you are doing it wrong, ergo you needn't worry too early.

5) surrounding yourself with lower hit die undead is useful for a menagerie of reasons, and it pays off accidentally here. You have animate dead, use it.

6) Dex is a far better investment than con, as are spell completion items, as are any number other other things.

7). Spellstiching is a thing.

8) contingency is a thing.