Natural Attacks question

[PowerGamer]

It may just be that it's late and me and my friend aren't thinking straight but we are confused about natural attacks.

I built a Warforged barbarian1/fighter4/souleater1
BAB +6/+1
Str 18(+4)
uses battlefist for slam and the feat 2nd slam on a full attack
also has spiked shield

This is where the problem hits, how does his full attack work when his slam is counted as a secondary attack?

Please help us.

[cakellene]

Not sure what thart feat is; but you would have full attack as normal, slam as secondary at -5 to hit and another slam at -5 (along with whatever penalties are tacked on by feat).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Natural Weapons and You: A miniguide by Keld Denar and Solo (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

You should probably read that ^ and this V

Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928)

They should have all the info you need.

[Greenish]

Best I can tell, you'd have your normal attacks (BAB 6/1) with a manufactured weapon, and then the natural attacks with your one slam (that you get to use twice, at ±0 and -5).

That's assuming the 'forged has a weapon (whether you can use a spiked shield as a main-hand weapon is technically up to the DM), and has a free "appendage" (again depending on DM interpretation of how the Slam attack works).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ehh dunno AFAICT medium creatures with slam attacks use their whole arms for it, and while it is definitely not RAW by any stretch this image seems to agree with me.http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88235.jpg

[Urpriest]

Battlefist is a bit weird, it applies to unarmed attacks and slams somehow. It's unclear whether you can use it on both at once.

[cakellene]

Best I can tell, you'd have your normal attacks (BAB 6/1) with a manufactured weapon, and then the natural attacks with your one slam (that you get to use twice, at ±0 and -5).

That's assuming the 'forged has a weapon (whether you can use a spiked shield as a main-hand weapon is technically up to the DM), and has a free "appendage" (again depending on DM interpretation of how the Slam attack works).

Why did you list one of the slams as not having the -5 penalty? Does the feat specifically mention ignoring the secondary attack penalty?

[Fax Celestis]

Why did you list one of the slams as not having the -5 penalty? Does the feat specifically mention ignoring the secondary attack penalty?

Because he's wrong.

Character in question's attack routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +1/slam +1. If you took Multiattack (like anyone who wants to use natural weapons should), routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +4/slam +4.

[Urpriest]

Because he's wrong.

Character in question's attack routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +1/slam +1. If you took Multiattack (like anyone who wants to use natural weapons should), routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +4/slam +4.

Second Slam adds a -5 penalty. It's not (explicitly) due to it being a secondary attack, so it should be in addition.

[cakellene]

Second Slam adds a -5 penalty. It's not (explicitly) due to it being a secondary attack, so it should be in addition.

Except, anytime you use a weapons all natural attacks are secondary.

[Urpriest]

Except, anytime you use a weapons all natural attacks are secondary.

Yes. What I'm saying is that there's an extra penalty: it should be weapon +6/+1, slam +1, second slam -4

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. What I'm saying is that there's an extra penalty: it should be weapon +6/+1, slam +1, second slam -4

Whoever wrote that feat is an idiot.

Do yourself a favor and spend your feat on Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces instead. It'll give you two slam attacks instead of one, and they'll actually follow the real rules for natural attacks.

[Coidzor]

Whoever wrote that feat is an idiot.

Do yourself a favor and spend your feat on Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces instead. It'll give you two slam attacks instead of one, and they'll actually follow the real rules for natural attacks.

Seems pretty damn wonky, yeah. I guess it's supposed to be more of an iterative attack with the original slam attack, like Rapid Strike, but they didn't communicate it well? :smallconfused:

That's two feats, unfortunately. He needs to be able to bind to his hands chakra. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) :/

Even weirder, really, if the wording I found is accurate.
The second slam uses your highest attack bonus with a -5 penalty[...]

So it's a natural weapon that can only be used after you've used your Slam natural attack, but it says it uses your highest attack bonus -5. :smallconfused:

[Darrin]

Seems pretty damn wonky, yeah. I guess it's supposed to be more of an iterative attack with the original slam attack, like Rapid Strike, but they didn't communicate it well? :smallconfused:


Rapid Strike isn't exactly a paragon of clarity, either. It also doesn't mention the secondary attack penalty.



So it's a natural weapon that can only be used after you've used your Slam natural attack, but it says it uses your highest attack bonus -5. :smallconfused:

The text makes no mention that you ignore other penalties, so... kind of a DM's call, but the -5 for secondary attack should probably also apply for -10 total. But I wouldn't get all that bent out of shape if someone insisted it should only be -5.

[PowerGamer]

Because he's wrong.

Character in question's attack routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +1/slam +1. If you took Multiattack (like anyone who wants to use natural weapons should), routine would be longsword +6/longsword +1/slam +4/slam +4.
Multiattack require 3+ natural attacks. I only have 1 so I can't take it



Whoever wrote that feat is an idiot.

Do yourself a favor and spend your feat on Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces instead. It'll give you two slam attacks instead of one, and they'll actually follow the real rules for natural attacks.
I might be able to pick up a flaw or 2 for feats, but I can only spare my lvl 2 fighter bonus feat.


Thanks to all who are helping me on this. I'm sending this to my DM to see what he says about it. Please keep debating the topic :)

[Prime32]

A lot of writers seem to ignore or be unaware that you can combine natural attacks with weapon attacks (to be fair, I don't really like this mechanic myself, and would prefer if both worked the same way). Second Slam is presumably meant for warforged who would normally be making a single attack per round.