3.5 Collector of Stories

[Rongar]

I've a player that wants to use the Collector of Stories Skill Trick with the Knowledge Devotion Feat. Where we don't see eye-to-eye is that he says he only needs to take the skill trick once and it applies to all his knowledge skills that he has 5 ranks in (you can get 5 ranks at 2nd level, and the skill trick). I'm saying he needs to take the trick for each knowledge skill that he has the 5 ranks in, not take it once and having it applied to all.

I know how skill tricks work as far as how often you can use them and whatnot, so am just looking for answers along the line of either,
Yes, you can take the trick once and have it apply to every knowledge skill that you have 5 ranks in,
~or~
No, you need to take the skill trick for each individual knowledge skill that you put 5 ranks in.

Listing any proof or just why you think either way works or doesn't is fine as well as it drops some insight on how people are reading/seeing this. I personally can't see a skill trick that costs 2 skill points being better/more powerful than using a feat such as Athletic or Nimble Fingers to get +2 to 2 skills, or using a skill focus feat to get a +3 in a single skill.

Thanx for your time all. :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't have CScoundrel handy to check, but the most common interpretation is that it affects all knowledge skills.

[Twilightwyrm]

The text states: "When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check."

As the text stands, all that is required is that the character have at least 1 rank in the appropriate knowledge skill to use it. It does not specify that it applies to a specific skill, or that said skill must have at least 5 ranks. The 5 knowledge ranks is just a prerequisite to gain the skill trick.

[Amphetryon]

Dusk Eclipse's interpretation is the only one I've ever seen used or discussed as RAW, as well.

The Feats against which you're comparing the Skill Trick (which needs to be taken in combination with at least one Feat - Knowledge Devotion - to really shine) are notoriously under-powered, incidentally.

[Greenish]

Collector of Stories works on all (trained) knowledges, as written, but it doesn't work on Knowledge Devotion, since that isn't a "Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities".

That said, it's not unreasonable to rule CoS to work on Knowledge Devotion, if only to simplify play (one roll+modifiers for both identifying and KD).

[Phelix-Mu]

Athletics, Diligent, Skill Focus(skill), etc, are all terrible uses for a feat; this is evidenced by the fact that single first and second level spells give bonuses to skills or single checks that are anywhere from double to ten times better than the feats. And often the spells grant bonuses to any single check or to a group of thematically related checks. A feat should generally be better than a 1st or 2nd level spell, in my mind.

The only reason those feats still exist at my table is I houserule them to also grant the skills they grant bonuses in as class skills for all classes. And, even then, they are still underpowered for my tastes. Draconic Knowledge (Dragon Magic, I believe) is a much better example of a feat that begins to give a competitive set of benefits, and even then it's not stellar (as it depends on a taking a number of other draconic feats). I'd much rather have the bonus scale with level or something like that (+2 per 3-4 levels wouldn't be out of line in a game where one is trying to give nice things to mundanes...although spellcasters could also take the feat, grrr).

Collector of Stories generally is seen to work on all Knowledge checks to identify the abilities/traits of a monster, regardless of the Knowledge skill that was used to qualify for the skill trick. It only helps spellcasters if you make using Knowledge Devotion onerous, as it most commonly appears in mundane or gish-type builds that are aiming for damage optimization (something casters are often better off ignoring).

[Quorothorn]

An additional note is that you can only take a particular Skill Trick once ("you either know it or you don't"--presumably this was in there to prevent doubling down in order to use a skill trick multiple times in one encounter/minute?), so if indeed Collector of Stories only applied to one Knowledge skill, that is the only one it would ever apply to (so, thankfully, it does not).

[SowZ]

An additional note is that you can only take a particular Skill Trick once ("you either know it or you don't"--presumably this was in there to prevent doubling down in order to use a skill trick multiple times in one encounter/minute?), so if indeed Collector of Stories only applied to one Knowledge skill, that is the only one it would ever apply to (so, thankfully, it does not).

Which, since it says 'trained knowledge checks' and doesn't specify means it can work for multiple types of knowledges. Since you can't take a sill trick twice, this seals the deal.

[Khedrac]

Also remember that you can only use a skill trick once per encounter, so if it is allowed to count for Knowledge Devotion then it can only be applied to the check for one of the types of creature encountered.

[DarkSonic1337]

Collector of Stories works on all (trained) knowledges, as written, but it doesn't work on Knowledge Devotion, since that isn't a "Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities".

That said, it's not unreasonable to rule CoS to work on Knowledge Devotion, if only to simplify play (one roll+modifiers for both identifying and KD).

But the knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) skill doesn't allow for retries...so how would you even roll the two checks separately? Does that mean by raw you may only make a knowledge check for knowledge devotion OR a knowledge check to identify monsters?

If not RAW, then would it be RAI to say that Knowledge devotion's check would be a "check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities" considering it references the exact page where this quote is from? And the feat's description is "You can use your knowledge to exploit your foes' weaknesses and overcome their strengths," how is that anything but making a knowledge check to identify a creature and learn it's special powers or vulnerabilities?

[MesiDoomstalker]

But the knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) skill doesn't allow for retries...so how would you even roll the two checks separately? Does that mean by raw you may only make a knowledge check for knowledge devotion OR a knowledge check to identify monsters?

If not RAW, then would it be RAI to say that Knowledge devotion's check would be a "check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities" considering it references the exact page where this quote is from? And the feat's description is "You can use your knowledge to exploit your foes' weaknesses and overcome their strengths," how is that anything but making a knowledge check to identify a creature and learn it's special powers or vulnerabilities?

KD's check is not the skill usage. The frequency (Cannot be retried) applies to the skill usage, while KD's is not the skill usage, it simply uses the Skill's modifier. Its a fine line, but its important.

IDing the monster and its characteristics is the Skill Usage. No retries.
KD is a special skill check. Separate from the Skill Usage, the result of either have no direct relevance (Failing one doesn't affect the other and vice versa).

[Gnarnia]

Collector of stories applies to all knowledges (although without 1 point invested in a knowledge skill (untrained), you can only succeed at DC 10 or below checks).

I've never seen it allowed to bump knowledge devotion (it's not RAW even if it seems somewhat sensible, and knowledge devotion never needed a boost).

[Curmudgeon]

I've a player that wants to use the Collector of Stories Skill Trick with the Knowledge Devotion Feat. Where we don't see eye-to-eye is that he says he only needs to take the skill trick once and it applies to all his knowledge skills that he has 5 ranks in (you can get 5 ranks at 2nd level, and the skill trick).
Neither of you are correct here. Collector of Stories doesn't apply to all Knowledge skills he has 5 ranks in; it applies to one trained Knowledge check per encounter (if he has 5 ranks in at least a single Knowledge skill). That single Knowledge check may be different from encounter to encounter, but it's only one Knowledge skill rather than all each time.
Benefit: When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check.
Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

I'm saying he needs to take the trick for each knowledge skill that he has the 5 ranks in, not take it once and having it applied to all. What you're saying is forbidden by the rules. From page 83 of Complete Scoundrel:
You can learn a skill trick only once; you either know it or you don’t.
Collector of Stories will work with one Knowledge Devotion check per encounter, if the player chooses to use it that way. There are six Knowledges related to D&D creature types. If the player makes such a check and uses Collector of Stories their result will be better by the CoS +5 bonus. That check result is used for all determinations of creature abilities (strengths) and vulnerabilities (weaknesses), including those for Knowledge Devotion. You cannot make more than one Knowledge check for a creature; that's also against the rules.
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, chiming in to say that it applies to all skills -- I don't think there's any hint that it could be interpreted the other way at all.

The only reason the OP even gives is "it feels more powerful than Skill Focus", which is silly (hey, it's also more powerful than Toughness!) Outside of a handful of highly specific tricks or builds that depend on squeezing every single drop out of a skill check at any cost, almost everything in the game is more powerful than Skill Focus (especially when applied to knowledges); "skill focus: knowledge X" is one of those things that is frequently used as a prerequisite for PRCs as a polite way of saying "this PRC requires that you pay feats on useless things in exchange for its benefits." Even aside from that -- it's 3e D&D, balance is not a thing it does well.

If you feel it's too powerful and want to houserule it, that's your call, but don't rely on your gut instinct for what's too powerful or what isn't to interpret how you read the RAW, because the game's individual options are just not well-balanced, fullstop, and trying to force an artificial balance between them is generally a terrible idea unless you know exactly what you're doing and exactly what sort of balance you're going for. If you just say "hey, I can think of something that's obviously weaker than this!" you're going to end up banning everything that people normally use in play, because the game contains massive numbers of options (especially feats) that are terrible and never get used by anyone.

That said...

You cannot make more than one Knowledge check for a creature; that's also against the rules.I don't think that you're citing the right rule. I believe you can (under normal circumstances) apply two different knowledge skills to a creature, because they're separate skills and not a retry of the same skill.

However, you specifically can't do that with Knowledge Devotion (it says "You can make only one Knowledge check per creature type per combat", which stops you from using a second Knowledge skill even if both are applicable.)

But outside of Knowledge Devotion, my reading is that the Knowledge page is meant to description of each knowledge skill, printed as one page to avoid redundancy -- it's intended to be treated as if you had six pages, one for each knowledge skill. That means that, I think, the "try again" rule applies only to that knowledge -- if you fail a knowledge: religion roll to identify a deity, you can still try a knowledge: the planes roll to identify it as an outsider, because that's a separate skill. (You can also do it if you succeed.)

Rules-wise, like I said, I think that this follows from the fact that they're separate skills -- rolling Knowledge: Religion and then Knowledge: The Planes (whether your religion check succeeded or failed) is not trying again, it's trying a different skill, no different than trying to pick a locked gate and then trying to climb over it if that fails.

Setting-logic-wise, it makes intuitive sense for it to work that way, too -- someone who is knowledgeable about both religion and the planes (having read all the important books on both subjects) should have a better chance of knowing about an outsider god than someone who is only knowledgeable about one of those things (having read only one set of those books.) It also fits in with the logic for why the Knowledge skills can't be retried -- you can't retry your Knowledge: Religion check on a deity, because you either know it or you don't; but if they're an outsider, you ought to be able to try recalling the things you've read about their plane with a Knowledge: The Planes check to see if you can deduce anything about them from that.

(But, again, that doesn't work with Knowledge Devotion because it has a special rule preventing you from making multiple Knowledge checks with it even in situations where you'd normally be able to.)

[Zirconia]

My DM did feel that Collector of Stories was powerful enough that he ruled that I needed 5 ranks in any Knowledge skill I wanted to apply it to to use it for that Knowledge, rather than just 5 ranks in one Knowledge skill and 1 rank in others to make them trained. He acknowledged, though, that that was a house interpretation.

If I pick up Knowledge Devotion, which I am considering, I expect that it will apply to that. Paying 5 skill points for all the various Knowledges I want to use it with is a considerable investment of resources.

[Grayson01]

Neither of you are correct here. Collector of Stories doesn't apply to all Knowledge skills he has 5 ranks in; it applies to one trained Knowledge check per encounter (if he has 5 ranks in at least a single Knowledge skill). That single Knowledge check may be different from encounter to encounter, but it's only one Knowledge skill rather than all each time.
What you're saying is forbidden by the rules. From page 83 of Complete Scoundrel:
Collector of Stories will work with one Knowledge Devotion check per encounter, if the player chooses to use it that way. There are six Knowledges related to D&D creature types. If the player makes such a check and uses Collector of Stories their result will be better by the CoS +5 bonus. That check result is used for all determinations of creature abilities (strengths) and vulnerabilities (weaknesses), including those for Knowledge Devotion. You cannot make more than one Knowledge check for a creature; that's also against the rules.

Yes but you can make multible Knowledge checks and Knowledge Devotion Checks for multible Creatures of different types Say an Orc, a Red Dragon, and a Dire Bear are the Creatures three seperate knowledge checks would have to be used Local, Arcana, and Nature. Collector of Stories and Knowdedge Devotion (if trained in each) would apply, then if a Black Dragon shows up in the Encounter a second Knowledge Devotion check (with the bonus from Collector of Stoires) would need to be rolled (per the disctription text of Knowledge Devotion). So yes Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories can be used more then once in an encounter.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes but you can make multible Knowledge checks and Knowledge Devotion Checks for multible Creatures of different types Say an Orc, a Red Dragon, and a Dire Bear are the Creatures three seperate knowledge checks would have to be used Local, Arcana, and Nature. Collector of Stories and Knowdedge Devotion (if trained in each) would apply, then if a Black Dragon shows up in the Encounter a second Knowledge Devotion check (with the bonus from Collector of Stoires) would need to be rolled (per the disctription text of Knowledge Devotion). So yes Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories can be used more then once in an encounter. Sorry, but that's expressly forbidden. From page 84 of Complete Scoundrel:
Using Skill Tricks
Skill tricks are special maneuvers, so you can’t just use them as often as you want. Unless otherwise noted, a skill trick can be performed only once per encounter (or once per minute, for scenes that don’t involve combat or other conflict). This restriction sets skill tricks apart from feats and class features, which are often repeatable.

Typically, performing a skill trick is either part of another action or an action in itself. There is no note to the contrary, so you would get to use Collector of Stories with Knowledge Devotion just once in an encounter, no matter how many different types of creatures you face.