How would you fix dragon disciple?

[Octopus Jack]

As we know Dragon Disciple is a fairly lacklustre prestige class route to take however I have a player potentially interested in playing a Duskblade/Dragon Disciple and would like to give them a hand by shaping this class into one that doesn't have such a sour reputation.

Naturally making it so the capstone doesn't break prerequisites is a good move but would changing the levels they get bonus spells to +1 Level of existing arcane spellcaster class be enough to tip the scales (heh) more in its favour, though the breath weapon being once per day is another really poor design choice on the writer's part.

Those are just some rambling thoughts off the top of my head, does anyone have any suggestions as to how they'd shape up Dragon Disciple to be the Draconic Gish style class that's promised?

[Waker]

You want to make DD into a Gish PrC? I'd give it either 5/10 or 7/10 spellcasting progression. Keep the HD, BAB and Saves. Maybe give it either bonus spells known (influenced by dragon type) or allow them to change a number of their spells known each day, some SLAs wouldn't be terrible. Make the Breath Weapon reusable, perhaps following the 1d4 rounds like a normal dragon would.

Those are just some quick suggestions.

[D-naras]

I would definitely give them +1 Level of existing arcane spellcaster class instead of bonus spells. I would make the breath weapon cost 1 spell slot to activate and deal Xd8 damage, where X is twice the spell slot used as well as similar costs to gain Frightful Presence and Energy Resistance. For example, the Dragon Disciple can expend 1 spell slot as a swift action, to gain Frightful Presence with a DC of 10+class level+Cha and affect creatures with HD equal to the Disciple's HD plus the level of the spell slot used with a duration of 1 round per spell level of the slot. For the Energy Resistance, I would make it an immediate action, scale it with class levels, starting at 5 at first level and increasing by another 5 per 2 levels and finishing as Immunity at 9th level. It would also cost a spell slot and the duration would be 1 round per level of the slot. This makes them sufficiently dragony and gives them something to do with their spells when not attacking with their +8 bonus Strength and numerous natural weapons. Oh, also grant at least a +2 Charisma. They are dragons after all.

[avr]

PF's dragon disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) gives 7/10 casting and is not said to be imbalanced on the high side, so I'd go with that.

[Runestar]

I have never heard of any reasonable DM who would invalidate the Dragon Disciple Prc based on that technicality (that being a half-dragon disqualifies the PC from himself).

I have also never thought of redesigning the DD as a gish, and I would like to see it as a more melee-oriented Prc, by granting benefits over and beyond the half-dragon template.

My thoughts:
1) Remove the spell casting and skill prerequisites, and make it so that anyone can qualify for it. Maybe draconic heritage as a prereq? Remove the bonus spell slots.
2) Full bab, d12, more skill points
3) Grant 2 wing slams and a tail slap attack
4) Spell resistance, blind sense, Breath weapon usable multiple times / day, bonus feats, maybe slightly faster improvement of natural armour
5) Anything I missed?

[Amphetryon]

PF's dragon disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) gives 7/10 casting and is not said to be imbalanced on the high side, so I'd go with that.

That should just about do it, really. It still won't be the most uber thing evar, but it will better fit the style most who want the archetype would be after than the version in 3.5.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah. Here is my shot.

5 levels long. It is a class that changes your character concept, but doesn't define the whole of him.

Prereqs
- 2 Skills 8 ranks based on dragon heritiage (one of the class skilles gained by dragon shaman, players choice)

3/4th bab, d12 HD, increased arcane casting for all levels but 1st and 5th, all good saves.

Dragon types that can learn cleric spells can advance divine casting.

Level 1
- +1 natural armor, +2 str, claws/bite, energy resistance 5 (to the element you will be immune to with the half dragon template)

Level 2
- Natural armor +2, Breath weapon 2d8

Level 3
- Blindsense, +2 str, +2 con, Draconic Adaptation (per dragon shaman), energy resistance 10

Level 4
- Breath weapon 4d8, Natural armor +3, Int +2 (with retroactive skill points)

Level 5
- Wings, Blindsense 60ft, Dragon Apotheosis

Breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds.

It would be powerful for a gish, but the hit to casting hurts. For melee it adds some great stat bonuses, but looses bab.

[Psyren]

PF's dragon disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) gives 7/10 casting and is not said to be imbalanced on the high side, so I'd go with that.

Thirding this. PF already fixed it.

[prufock]

The dragon disciple capstone doesn't break the requirements. You only need to meet the requirements before taking the first level.

I agree with giving it +1 spellcasting at the bonus spell levels.

[Octopus Jack]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm had no idea Pathfinder had done anything with it due to being relatively ill-versed on pathfinder material.

I'll show him the pathfinder material and see if he'd be fine taking that version of it. If for whatever reason, he doesn't like the pathfinder material I'll work with him and some of the suggestion here to get him a Dragon Disciple PrC that should be useful and flavourful.

Thanks again all.

[Zman]

IMO, all it needs is 7/10 Spellcasting at the levels it would normally get its Bonus Spells. Changing those levels around would be better, but as it is enough. I suggested such in the Homebrew section not a day or two ago about this exact question.

Remember the pathfinder version assumes you get the Bloodline as well, using the 3.5 class with added Spellcasting is better IMO.

[Eldonauran]

Naturally making it so the capstone doesn't break prerequisites is a good move but would changing the levels they get bonus spells to +1 Level of existing arcane spellcaster class be enough to tip the scales (heh) more in its favour, though the breath weapon being once per day is another really poor design choice on the writer's part.
I'm one of those DM's that won't let you take any more levels in a prestige class if you fail to qualify for them but won't make you lose the abilities you have gained from that prestige class UNLESS that prestige class has a section "Ex-Members" or written text that describes what happens when you do something that causes you to lose your abilities.


Those are just some rambling thoughts off the top of my head, does anyone have any suggestions as to how they'd shape up Dragon Disciple to be the Draconic Gish style class that's promised?

Other's have mentioned the Pathfinder version of the dragon disciple. That is a good way to go about it. If you want to stick with the 3.5e version, I'd make a few changes.

First, I'd give the dragon disciple a breathe weapon that progresses as more levels are gained. 1d8 at first level and increasing by +1d8 every odd level of dragon disciple (max 5d8). At tenth level, I'd grant the disciple the ability to sacrifice a spell slot as part of using the breath weapon (free action) to add +xd8 damage based on the level of the spell. I would also do away with the 1/day limit on the breath weapon. I'd change it to once every 1d4 rounds.

Second, spellcasting. I'd keep the bonus spell slots. In fact, I'd make sure the character gets one every level of the dragon disciple. Then, I'd give the character 5/10 casting progression. On even levels.

Third, a size increase and tail attack. As part of the dragon apotheosis, your size increases by one category. You do not gain any additional ability score increases (or penalties) from the size change. In addition, you gain a tail, the ability to make a tail attack (1d8 medium, 2d6 large) and a sweep attack with that tail, though only against those within 5ft of you (full round action, one attack roll against everyone within 5ft, 1 1/2 Str to damage).

[ericgrau]

Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled as sorcerers or bards.
Read the DMG, problem solved.

Issue AKA your gish/caster is bad at being a gish/caster because it is not a gish/caster. That's what eldritch knight and caster PrCs are for.

It's not up to the power level of a lot of splatbook options but it's one of the best melee options in core.

Wands and staffs are also nice for dabblers because they only require 1 level and don't have arcane spell failure for armor.

You can gish it in PF ya. Only downside to the 7/10 casting is it is a bit of bait that makes it even harder to notice the heavy melee dabbler route - which is still nice in PF - rather than the gish route. Difference in PF heavy melee version is you can put up more 24 hour self buffs than 3.5.

[Draz74]

There's a Dragon Breath feat in Races of the Dragon that lets Half-Dragons breathe every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day. I'd recommend just relaxing the prerequisites so that a Dragon Disciple can take this feat (BEFORE reaching Level 10 of the PrC).

That plus the 7/10 spellcasting would make me reasonable happy with the class.