Alternative prestige classes for the optimal druid

[eggynack]

The first rule of being a druid is to not not be a druid. Even without spellcasting, the other class features form the basis for one of the more powerful classes in the game, hanging out at a reasonably high place in tier three. Only three prestige classes can hope to compete with a straight class druid, and those are the planar shepherd, moonspeaker, and lion of talisid. Arcane heirophant and master of many forms are perfectly nice classes, if you want to go down that route, but they're pretty clearly less powerful than just being more of a druid. It's a good rule, and one that has guided us well through the not so stormy seas of druid optimization.

And it might be wrong. What would happen if we were to loosen the restriction that any druid prestige class must advance wild shape and the animal companion, or else be utterly pointless. I'm not suggesting that these features be ditched entirely, but dipping out on occasion might not be so bad. Wild shape is still really good, even if you miss a level of it somewhere along the line, and that goes double if you pick up a wild shape amulet or something such that you can get huge after eleven levels of advancement. At the same time, the animal companion faces diminishing returns at higher levels, to the point where advancement might not even be a necessity. It's not like the companion will be a significantly worse spell target, meat shield, or beat stick if you stop at eleven or so.

Thus, we arrive at the premise of this thread. What are some nifty prestige classes that have been overlooked due to the paradigm of straight classed druids? Most of these will be traditionally cleric or wizard associated prestige classes, but a couple may have actually been intended for druids. I suspect that there won't be many, cause super powerful options would be taken note of (would planar shepherd really be dismissed if it didn't advance all the things), but there might be some. I'll list a few, and then leave things open for additions, and maybe adamant criticism of the idea, if you want. Anyways, prestige classes.

Holt Warden (CC, 84): This is probably one of the best. The prerequisites are basically non-existent, and plant affinity seems to get you an extra spell/level at every level, even if you don't make the crappy spontaneous casting trade. All of the spells were already on the druid list, but some of the bonus spells are strong and well worth casting. Also, you get an extra +2 to knowledge (nature) and survival, which is neat. You're not expanding your list at all, which is the real problem with this as opposed to other options, but spells/day are good. Holt warden might easily be worth the dip for that alone, but there's nothing after that (this shall be a theme).

Seeker of the Misty Isle (CDiv, 61): You lose some skill points to pick up cross class knowledge religion ranks, and you need to be an elf, which is a sub-optimal race, but you get the travel domain, as well as some skill points and martial weapon proficiencies. The travel domain adds a solid set of teleportation spells to your list, which is something druids are decent at, but not perfect. The two big additions are greater teleport, which is a greatness of teleport which druids otherwise just don't have, and dimension door which is one of the best tactical teleportation options. Also, astral projection, which ups the list of strong 9th's from one to two, and the travel domain power is reasonably good.

Contemplative (CDiv, 30): On the plus side, you get any domain you want, which offers a high potential for versatility, and you get disease immunity, which is nice. Unfortunately, you need 13 ranks in knowledge (religion), which is high enough that you're going to actually need the skill on your list somehow. You can pick the skill up with the feat education, or with some prestige classes, but it doesn't come infinitely cheap. Contemplative is a strong option, but that cost may be prohibitively high.

So, those're the ones I've found thus far. There might be others, which is the primary reason for this thread's existence, though some opinions on the central idea would also be nice.

[Talya]

Somewhat Off-Topic, but I prefer the Holt Warden as a way to add some nature-flavor to the incredibly boring Cleric. There's a fluff reason why few people ever play a cleric of Ehlonna/Mielikki - because they make lousy nature priests. Hold-Warden fixes that. I see it adding far more to a cleric than a druid.

[Egopunk]

There are always mount based builds like cleric1/druid5/prestige paladin2/druid12 with holy mont and devoted trackerfor 17th level druid casting, access to DMM cheese and a mount that is 20th level paladin mount AND 16th level animal companion.

I'd say that's not a bad prestige dip. Combines nicely with a couple of prestige ranger levels for expanding spell list and extra bab.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree with the idea that a few dips are good for a druid.
Up to 4 levels of WS progression can be made up with the Wild Shape Amulet so that's pretty much a non-issue.
AC is kinda weak at mid- to high levels anyway (which is why i strongly recommend going with Urban Companion from the Cityscape WE if your campaign starts above level 5 or so).

What classes to dip is the question.
Holt Warden: automatic qualification and +1 slot per spell level is nice. The domain slots are even nicer if you get additional domains. 10ft bonus to land speed is ok if not exactly a reason to take the class. Rebuking (and commanding) plants could be useful IF you can get your DM to rule that it's affected by items that increase rebuke undead level. Nothing overwhelming here and no point in taking more than 2 levels, but nice and flavorful if you want to be a caster focused druid.

Seeker of the Misty Isle: A lot of people complain about elves being crappy. I argue that, for a druid, being a desert elf (UA) isn't that bad a choice. If you DCFS your racial profiencies for bonus feats it might even be better than human at high levels, especially if you can get your DM to replace the Heat Endurance desert trait with the feat of the same name from Sandstorm. A good 1 level dip imo.

Contemplative: I like to dip 1 level of this for the Luck or Pride domains. Both Holt Warden and SotMI get Know:religion as class skills so qualification is neither hard nor costly.


There are always mount based builds like cleric1/druid5/prestige paladin2/druid12 with holy mont and devoted trackerfor 17th level druid casting, access to DMM cheese and a mount that is 20th level paladin mount AND 16th level animal companion.

I'd say that's not a bad prestige dip. Combines nicely with a couple of prestige ranger levels for expanding spell list and extra bab.

You can't take Prestige Paladin on a Druid since you need to be LG for one and any N for the other. You can get a special mount with Ranger Knight (Dragon 317) but it's kind of suboptimal unless you abuse the various stacking feats and Arcane Hierophant to end up with a full caster supermount build. I fiddled around with a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289543) once and got a special mount companion familiar with +34 HD, +42 NA, +17 STR, +10 DEX, INT 12, SR 40 out of it while still casting as a 17 level druid with access to ranger spells and 11 level wizard.

[Rebel7284]

Knowledge Devotion is a great way to add a knowledge skill while also giving you bonus damage against many targets.

You forgot perhaps the best dip for a druid: Sacred Exorcist.

What's better than Bite of the Werebear? Bite of the Werebear ALL DAY!

[Fax Celestis]

Stonespeaker Guardian is a PrC that gets overlooked a lot because of its terrible racial requirements. It's actually pretty decent, keeps most of the Druid features that people actually care about, and is full casting.

Earth Dreamer gets overlooked because it doesn't progress wild shape, but it has a lot of really good fringe benefits.

[Greenish]

Getting a domain (and Know: Religion) would let you sneak into the Sovereign Speaker (FoE) to get loads of more domains (and some extra domain slots).

[Karnith]

Talontar Blightlord (from Unapproachable East) is fairly easy for evil Druids to qualify for, and gets rid of the Druid armor restrictions, gives you access to the Blightbringer prestige domain (which gives you a few useful spells and the ability to rebuke/command Blightspawned creatures and evil Plants), applies the Blightspawned template to your animal companion(s), and some other stuff. It only drops casting at levels 6 and 10, making it an okay dip.

You can qualify for Hathran (Player's Guide to Faerun) as a Druid, which gets you the obscenely-broken Circle Magic.

You need to blow a bunch of feats to do it, but Druids can also qualify Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun; fair warning that it's 3.0 content) and get some free metamagic with a one-level dip.

[eggynack]

Seeker of the Misty Isle: A lot of people complain about elves being crappy. I argue that, for a druid, being a desert elf (UA) isn't that bad a choice. If you DCFS your racial profiencies for bonus feats it might even be better than human at high levels, especially if you can get your DM to replace the Heat Endurance desert trait with the feat of the same name from Sandstorm. A good 1 level dip imo.
Yeah, elves face an odd dichotomy of optimization, where they're pretty bad without DCFS, and one of the best races in the game with it. None of the traits really do anything otherwise, though I do appreciate that the desert elf's stat adjustments are value neutral instead of actively harmful. Also, it's possible that the heat endurance trait, when combined with wasteland druid substitution levels, gets you improved heat endurance. That 5 fire resistance is pretty good if you don't need to spend a feat on it.


Contemplative: I like to dip 1 level of this for the Luck or Pride domains. Both Holt Warden and SotMI get Know:religion as class skills so qualification is neither hard nor costly.
I'm getting the feeling, from this and other situations, that the best way to use all of these PrC dips is in some form of combination. Like, you use holt warden to get knowledge (religion), use that to get contemplative, use one of those bonus domains to pick up the prerequisite for sacred exorcist, and then persisting powers are yours. It's a thing of some form.



Knowledge Devotion is a great way to add a knowledge skill while also giving you bonus damage against many targets.
That could work also, though druids aren't exactly working an excess of knowledges. Better than education though.


You forgot perhaps the best dip for a druid: Sacred Exorcist.

What's better than Bite of the Werebear? Bite of the Werebear ALL DAY!
It is quite powerful, but the spell prerequisite is a bit prohibitive. Not so prohibitive that the class is unobtainable, but it's a problem. Between the barriers to entry into the class, and the feats necessary to get DMM persist, you're going to be pretty high in level before you can persist stuff. The effect is still great at high level, so it could still be worthwhile, but it takes some planning.

Stonespeaker Guardian is a PrC that gets overlooked a lot because of its terrible racial requirements. It's actually pretty decent, keeps most of the Druid features that people actually care about, and is full casting.
Goliath druids are certainly a thing of some kind, given that you also get halfway decent set of substitution levels. Not a thing of a particularly good kind, but it's interesting.


Earth Dreamer gets overlooked because it doesn't progress wild shape, but it has a lot of really good fringe benefits.
That's a rather nifty thing. You need to take a few levels to get anything real out of it, which means that you're losing a lot of wild shape, but earth dream especially is a thing which druids don't do all that well. Might be campaign dependent though, depending on how you interpret "connected to mountains". You could get pretty tricky with that kind of limitation.


Getting a domain (and Know: Religion) would let you sneak into the Sovereign Speaker (FoE) to get loads of more domains (and some extra domain slots).
It's a strong class, though the caster level loss is about as problematic on a druid as it is on a cleric. There's a lot of factors in both directions on that one, I think.


Talontar Blightlord (from Unapproachable East) is fairly easy for evil Druids to qualify for, and gets rid of the Druid weapon and armor restrictions, gives you access to the Blightbringer prestige domain (which gives you a few useful spells and the ability to rebuke/command Blightspawned creatures and evil Plants), applies the Blightspawned template to your animal companion(s), and some other stuff. It only drops casting at levels 6 and 10, making it an okay dip..
The domain is a strong addition, though it doesn't seem as strong as the other options along those lines. Also, it's worth note that druids actually don't have any weapon restrictions to lose. It's a weird thing.


You can qualify for Hathran (Player's Guide to Faerun) as a Druid, which gets you the obscenely-broken Circle Magic.
Yeah, hathran is crazy as all hell. Rashemi spirit magic is also an insane ability, especially when you combine it with an acorn of far travel. Requiring leadership is also a thing of some shape, though I do not know what shape that is. It's a class that is a lot like planar shepherd in a lot of ways, in that I can't really imagine doing much that isn't cheesy as all hell with it. I mean, just picking up that one level dip for spirit magic would be really strong.


You need to blow a bunch of feats to do it, but Druids can also qualify Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun; fair warning that it's 3.0 content) and get some free metamagic with a one-level dip.
That's a class that is also never used for anything particularly friendly. It's probably for the best, ultimately.

[Karnith]

Also, it's worth note that druids actually don't have any weapon restrictions to lose. It's a weird thing.
It's a relic of 3.0; Druids used to be limited to using weapons that the class gave proficiency with. I actually thought that this was still a rule until you mentioned it.

[Egopunk]

You can't take Prestige Paladin on a Druid since you need to be LG for one and any N for the other. You can get a special mount with Ranger Knight (Dragon 317) but it's kind of suboptimal unless you abuse the various stacking feats and Arcane Hierophant to end up with a full caster supermount build. I fiddled around with a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289543) once and got a special mount companion familiar with +34 HD, +42 NA, +17 STR, +10 DEX, INT 12, SR 40 out of it while still casting as a 17 level druid with access to ranger spells and 11 level wizard.

Derp, I forgot that when I played that build it was in a campaign where we homeruled paladin to be any Lawful. That is a damn nice build. Nothing too questionable, access to pretty much all the spells you'd ever want (esp the tasty ranger ones like hunters mercy, swift haste and early versions of the usual druid gems)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Concerning Sacred Exorcist and Spelldancer i think it's a little too much cost for the gain. Free persist is certainly strong but taking Sacred Exorcist requires you to take the Balance or Good domains, which not only both suck but also prevent you from getting a good domain from that Contemplative level. It also comes online pretty late (level 12 at the earliest).

Spelldancer is even worse, costing 4 feats and and a level, especially considering that the feats all suck and you need ranks in a cross class skill, too. I guess it's worth it if you don't know what feats to take but i usually have so many things i want that i'm already short on feats anyway.

The "free metamagic" trick that i think is worth it on a druid is Midnight Metamagic + Psicarnum Infusion on a psionic base rase. It doesn't allow for persisting without more feat investment and high level (lvl 18, Bonus Essentia, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy Metamagic) but it also doesn't specify a single metamagic.
Combined with a Nimblestep (LEoF, lets you focus as a move action) it works quite effectively with other useful metamagics (like sculpt, rapid, extend from 1st level onward, guided & chain starting at 12th) without using up most of your feats or coming to late to be useful.


Derp, I forgot that when I played that build it was in a campaign where we homeruled paladin to be any Lawful. That is a damn nice build. Nothing too questionable, access to pretty much all the spells you'd ever want (esp the tasty ranger ones like hunters mercy, swift haste and early versions of the usual druid gems)
Well, the wizard casting ended up in the build mainly because AH counts quadruple for the mount/companion/familiar progression. The thing that might lead to a DM banning it is the fact that you're riding a 42HD dragon at level 20.