[PF] Spellcaster VS Magic Traps

[Yanisa]

After a recent "fight" with our resident druid about magic traps I realized that I as a GM don't know a lot about traps, and the Pathfinder books don't seem helpful but rather vague and unexplained. Almost if magic traps don't interact with normal magic.

First off: the background. Before this I was running a homebrew quest, but I as getting tired of coming up with new ideas so I stole an adventure path. Because we didn't had an rogue traps never happened before (hence my inexperience), but this adventure path had them and I figured the party could deal with them.
The druid and her permanent detect magic could easily find the traps, but in one case she thought it was a magic item (Electric Mask Trap) and the other case the trap lacked a clear spell it was mimicking (Frozen Door Trap). Here the stats:

Electric Mask Trap CR 3
Type magic; Perception DC 26; Disable Device DC 26
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset none
Effect spell effect (alarm [audible], shocking grasp, Atk +8 melee
touch [5d6 electricity damage])

Frozen Door Trap CR 4
Type magic; Perception DC 27; Disable Device DC 27
Effects
Trigger touch; Reset none; Bypass key
Effect blast of freezing cold in a 10-foot-radius burst, 4d6 cold
damage, Reflex DC 13 half.


So the problems...

1) Electric Mask Trap. The druid thought it was an magic item due my vague description and tried to identify it with the spellcraft skill. In my opinion when you identify an item you need to touch it, thus triggering the trap. The druid didn't share my opinion and argued two points:

1a) Identifying does into require to touch the item.
Which ended in a debate on the meaning of the word possession.
The Core rules state:

This skill is also used to identify the properties of magic items in your possession through the use of spells such as detect magic and identify.
I read possession in this context as holding the item in hand, but the druid argues it as being the owner. I couldn't find anything in the FAQ clarifying this, so is there any official word on whether identifying requires touching the item? And if not, what are peoples opinions about it?

1b) Detect Magic would identify an spell aura from a trap differently then a magic item.
This one made me scratch my head. I think the point was that an magic item is magic to its core, where a trap is a layer of magic upon a item, this because the item isn't magic after the trap is triggered.
So... would detect magic detect a magic trap differently then a magic item? Or the aura?

2) Frozen Door Trap
This come comes back to my inexperience with traps. In both cases the druid wanted to dispel the traps and asked the caster level of the maker of the traps. Aka magic items. The first trap had a clear spell it was using and a clear caster level (Shocking Grasp is 1d6/caster level, so 5d6 is a CL 5 caster) but this one didn't.
Judging from the DC it was a spell level 2 trap (because the DC is 25 + spell level), so that would mean CL 3, but then the 4d6 would suggest a CL 4. Regardless I noted this problem with more magic traps I found in the core rulebook, there is sometimes no way to determine caster level

2a) So the question is: how can I determine the caster level of a trap? The core rulebook uses caster level in the trap creation section, but no trap has any indication how to create it (what spell to use, caster level, etc). Am I missing something?

And to make it more confusion the Paladin argued that dispel magic wouldn't work on traps, because dispel doesn't mention traps, but "One object, creature, or spell" going back to the argument from 1b... traps wouldn't be spells or objects, but rather a separate class?

2b) Can dispel magic effect a magic traps? And if so are traps objects or spells? Does it matter whether it is a Device Traps or a Spell Trap?

Because my Druid is a "rule-nazi" (by lack of a better term) I prefer to have some sort of source by an answer, but opinions are always welcome. In general my preference is: Core rule book pages > the online SRD > FAQ.

Thank you for reading all this and hopefully you can shine some light on my problems.

[khachaturian]

my guess is that most people would answer

1a. do not think identification requires touch
1b. detect magic would not be able to distinguish trap from a magic item

2a. you are the dm. you get to decide the caster level
2b. dispel magic can clearly dispel a magic trap

[Drachasor]

Magical Traps (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps) are essentially Wondrous Magical items:


Magical Traps (Designing):

As with mechanical traps, decide what elements you want and then determine the CR of the resulting trap (see Table: CR Modifiers for Magic Traps). If a player character wants to design and construct a magic trap, he, or an ally, must have the Craft Wondrous Item feat. In addition, he must be able to cast the spell or spells that the trap requires—or he must be able to hire an NPC to cast the spells for him.

Often it seems like a specific Caster Level for the trap is not given. However, the DC is based on the Spell Level:


Magic Trap: The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap.

So if you want to guess on a CL for a trap, I'd say it is 3 or Spell Level * 2 - 1 (minimum level to cast the spell). Well, that's a decent guess for a minimum caster level.

So that's a CL of 3 for both of those traps. Though if you feel that's too low, you could always up it. Really is up to the DM. However, since they are magical items, a Dispel Magic should be able to work on them just fine.

Personally I'd allow identification from a distance, but I could see not allowing it.

[Psyren]

I can't find either of these traps on the SRD, where are they from?

1a) I would say you are correct about identifying it, he has to touch it. It's unlikely that you can "examine something thoroughly" without handling it in some way, though picking it up magically (e.g. Mage Hand) can probably count for that purpose. However, without this examination, he should still be able to detect magic and get a school aura off it just by looking. (Note that there are more powerful spells out there, like Analyze Dweomer, that tell you everything about an aura at a distance.)

1b) Auras do not contain information like "magic item" vs. "trap." You can tell if something is cursed, but that requires beating the DC by 10 or more, and it requires handling the item again as above unless you use AD.

2a) Without seeing the trap's entry I can't provide any conclusive help. Generally the best hint is the spell required to create a certain trap.

2b) Magic traps can be dispelled. Spell Traps will be destroyed, while magic device traps will simply be suppressed for 1d4 rounds.

[Flickerdart]

1b) Auras do not contain information like "magic item" vs. "trap." You can tell if something is cursed, but that requires beating the DC by 10 or more, and it requires handling the item again
Wouldn't a cursed trap be one that has a beneficial effect? :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Wouldn't a cursed trap be one that has a beneficial effect? :smallamused:

In much the way that a poisoned trap is beneficial to whoever set it, sure :smallbiggrin:

I think a lot of this would be cleared up if I could see the full entries of the OP's traps and/or find something similar to reference.

[ericgrau]

I also wonder why anyone in PF would need permanent detect magic when you can cast it at will. Detect magic really can scout out all kinds of dangers, but as said it doesn't tell you precisely what the danger is. I think this is a bit of an oversight in PF that they only got away with because DMs and players tend to overlook it too. It's pretty dang strong for a cantrip once it's at-will.

[Psyren]

You can get it at will pretty easily in 3.5 too so I don't think it's all that gamebreaking. And searching for traps is much easier than in 3.5 since you can do it at sight range and with a move action instead of 5-ft. at a time every other round.

[Yanisa]

I can't find either of these traps on the SRD, where are they from?

It is from the module: Masks of the Living God. (Link to paizo (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8bal?Pathfinder-Module-Masks-of-the-Living-God))

They seems as detailed as I posed n the first post, and most core trap entry looks the same, but I might missed something there too.


I also wonder why anyone in PF would need permanent detect magic when you can cast it at will. Detect magic really can scout out all kinds of dangers, but as said it doesn't tell you precisely what the danger is. I think this is a bit of an oversight in PF that they only got away with because DMs and players tend to overlook it too. It's pretty dang strong for a cantrip once it's at-will.

It's not really permanent, but she once stated that she always casts detect magic and keeps concentrating on it unless specially stating not... And each time i forgot that she says she has stated it before... *sigh*

[ericgrau]

You can get it at will pretty easily in 3.5 too so I don't think it's all that gamebreaking. And searching for traps is much easier than in 3.5 since you can do it at sight range and with a move action instead of 5-ft. at a time every other round.
It's not game-breaking at all but it's far from cantrip level power. Normally you have to pay a good chunk of gold or xp. I'd peg it at about 3rd level. Better than find traps at least purely from duration even with its limitations. Granted in PF at-will already makes most cantrips as good as 1st level between battle utility. Consider endure elements, which is 24 hours, versus most at-will cantrips.

[schoklat]

Good answers so far, esp Psyren, just a few points.
* Spellcraft states you need to handle the item to identify it.
* Illusions don't register on Detect Magic until you see through them.
* Always-on Detect Magic doesn't require a standard / concentration to maintain composed to at-will.

[Yanisa]

Magical Traps (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps) are essentially Wondrous Magical items:



Often it seems like a specific Caster Level for the trap is not given. However, the DC is based on the Spell Level:



So if you want to guess on a CL for a trap, I'd say it is 3 or Spell Level * 2 - 1 (minimum level to cast the spell). Well, that's a decent guess for a minimum caster level.

So that's a CL of 3 for both of those traps. Though if you feel that's too low, you could always up it. Really is up to the DM. However, since they are magical items, a Dispel Magic should be able to work on them just fine.

Personally I'd allow identification from a distance, but I could see not allowing it.

I assume this only counts for Magic Device Traps, but this probably the best way to treat most magic traps. (Also in regards to dispelling) The problem, for me, is that magic traps have barely any creation information in their description, its almost if pathfinder doesn't intend players to use traps. It just hard to get information about some traps and what spells they use, especially those outside core.

As for the caster level, the fact they don't list it keeps being odd, but it's mostly easy to deduce (unless the trap is vague about what spell it is using...). It does lead to some odd cases like Acid Arrow Trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/acid-arrow-trap-cr-3).

Which based on spell level is a CL 3, but based on duration its CL 10.

Regardless, if its a straight DM call, it doesn't matter.


1b) Auras do not contain information like "magic item" vs. "trap." You can tell if something is cursed, but that requires beating the DC by 10 or more, and it requires handling the item again as above unless you use AD.

But aura's do seem to difference between Functioning spell and Magic items. Would that also translate to a different between spell traps and magic device traps? Regardless the player would only detect magic, and not "this item is not magical but has a magic aura upon deducing that functions like a Magic Device Trap".




And lastly, no clear answer for identifying requiring touching or looking? Sounds like another DM call, I will discuss with my players and see what they prefer.