Quick question about liches

[Samalpetey]

If a lich's phylactary is destroyed, is the lich instantly destroyed, or does it merely enable them to be destroyed? Also, if a lich's phylactary is destroyed and it doesn't destroy them too, can they make a new one?

[Starmage21]

If a lich's phylactary is destroyed, is the lich instantly destroyed, or does it merely enable them to be destroyed? Also, if a lich's phylactary is destroyed and it doesn't destroy them too, can they make a new one?

It can be both. Both the Lich and his Phylactery must be destroyed in order for the lich to be permanently destroyed.

Break one and not the other and you have an angry lich that probably wants revenge.

IIRC in the past they can always just make a new phylactery if the original is destroyed. Not sure on this anymore, new editions and all that.

[Samalpetey]

Thanks for the quick reply, and does anyone have a source pointing definitively either way? I want to be able to explain it to someone who thinks that if a lich's phylactary is destroyed, they are too, instantly.

[Morcleon]

Thanks for the quick reply, and does anyone have a source pointing definitively either way? I want to be able to explain it to someone who thinks that if a lich's phylactary is destroyed, they are too, instantly.

That's not the case. According to the Lich monster class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a):

If the phylactery is destroyed while the lich is still active in a body, her undead life force automatically joins that body. She takes no penalties of any kind for that joining, but without a phylactery, she cannot recover if her body is subsequently destroyed. She may create a new phylactery to replace a lost one if she has the time and resources to do so.

So, no, destroying the phylactery doesn't do anything unless the Lich is dead too. Think of the phylactery as a soul hideaway. Destroying the hideaway does nothing to the soul if you haven't also destroyed the soul itself.

[Samalpetey]

That's not the case. According to the Lich monster class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a):


So, no, destroying the phylactery doesn't do anything unless the Lich is dead too. Think of the phylactery as a soul hideaway. Destroying the hideaway does nothing to the soul if you haven't also destroyed the soul itself.

Thanks for the source, but to clarify, that is what I thought. I wanted the info to be able to prove it to someone else

[KillianHawkeye]

Libris Mortis page 151 says no to making a new phylactery if the first is destroyed, but the Lich suffers no harm (outside of losing their save point) when it happens.

[TuggyNE]

Libris Mortis page 151 says no to making a new phylactery if the first is destroyed, but the Lich suffers no harm (outside of losing their save point) when it happens.

Which suggests that the lich template and the lich monster class technically work slightly differently in that way. Unfortunate.

[KillianHawkeye]

Which suggests that the lich template and the lich monster class technically work slightly differently in that way. Unfortunate.

I really just think that the different writers they had at WotC just weren't on the same page (:smallwink:) when it comes to lich phylacteries, which is why there is information that is blatantly contradictory.

Libris Mortis was published in late 2004 (almost a year after that web article), and it's the book that's supposed to be the main resource on undead creatures, so in my opinion it is the authority on this matter.

However, since most liches are NPC villains rather than player characters, it's probably for the best that they can't make new phylacteries whenever they please, or it would be much too difficult to get rid of them.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I dont see why logically they couldn't make a new one. If the piece of the soul returns to the body there is no reason it cannot be hide away again within another.

Also I agree the writers where likely not on the same page, people assume differences, but then again yes as a villain its best to give them a proper permanent weakness.

[Morcleon]

However, since most liches are NPC villains rather than player characters, it's probably for the best that they can't make new phylacteries whenever they please, or it would be much too difficult to get rid of them.

It would take at least 120 days to make a new phylactery, what with it being a magic item and all. I feel that if they could make a new one, it would add a time factor into defeating them. ^_^

[KillianHawkeye]

It would take at least 120 days to make a new phylactery, what with it being a magic item and all. I feel that if they could make a new one, it would add a time factor into defeating them. ^_^

Meh, possibly, but I think anybody as powerful and paranoid as a lich would basically just disappear to their super secret invisible bomb shelter on the astral plane for three months and the players would hardly have any way to track them down and finish them off.

Remember, three months of downtime or delayed plans means basically nothing to a lich. That crucial planetary alignment that happens only once every 5000 years? They can wait for the next one. It's an unfortunate setback, but it's not worth risking your unlife if you're fresh out of continues. Survival is any lich's number one priority. They can simply outlive the majority of their enemies.

This is the kind of mindset it takes to even consider becoming a lich, so I wouldn't bet on one taking a lot of chances if they can just wait three months and become invincible again.

[Morcleon]

Meh, possibly, but I think anybody as powerful and paranoid as a lich would basically just disappear to their super secret invisible bomb shelter on the astral plane for three months and the players would hardly have any way to track them down and finish them off.

Remember, three months of downtime or delayed plans means basically nothing to a lich. That crucial planetary alignment that happens only once every 5000 years? They can wait for the next one. It's an unfortunate setback, but it's not worth risking your unlife if you're fresh out of continues. Survival is any lich's number one priority. They can simply outlive the majority of their enemies.

This is the kind of mindset it takes to even consider becoming a lich, so I wouldn't bet on one taking a lot of chances if they can just wait three months and become invincible again.

In that case, the PCs will need to break into said bomb shelter. Or kill the lich and then look for the phylactery. :smalltongue:

[UmpteenthDoctor]

A smart Lich is gonna be hiding out on the Astral Plane for sure, but their phylactery should be buried under layers of enchantments and traps and as far down and as hard a place as possible.

Something like the bottom of a thickly infested tomb with a small pipe with multiple bends in it leading into a hollow room where their phylactery sits and waits for them to reform. Then Gaseous Form out.

[KillianHawkeye]

In that case, the PCs will need to break into said bomb shelter. Or kill the lich and then look for the phylactery. :smalltongue:

IF they can find it, when it's in an unknown location, invisible, and warded against divinations. Sure.

[Morcleon]

IF they can find it, when it's in an unknown location, invisible, and warded against divinations. Sure.

Eh, find a seer psion and have them spam Metafaculty and/or Hypercognition at it until it works. :smallbiggrin: Since the former specifically has a chance of bypassing divination-blocking and the latter isn't a divination effect per se, you should have a fairly decent chance of finding it.

And if you still can't, go capture the lich, hit it with Spark of Life, then Trait Removal, then Mindrape. :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

So, something that won't work, followed by an action that wouldn't work, against a caster that is probably stronger than you are. All to find an item that is probably buffed to high heaven to the point a psion can't dispel it. :smalltongue: