Star Wars: Are the Sith less innovative in the Force ?

[Sotharsyl]

Taking in SW media, or more accurately the portions I have consumed the 6 films, KOTOR games (including the MMO), the Clone Wars (both) series some trailing on wookiepedia and the SW Saga rpg books, it seems to me that the Sith are more monolithic/one track in their philosophical take on the Force.

The Jedi have their Code ("There is no emotion there is peace") and the Sith have their own ("Peace is a lie") but beyond that ... for example in the Jedi Order you have those who believe in the Living Force i.e hippy-Jedi (ex: Qui-Gon) vs those who believe in the Unifying Force more stuck up jedi (Yoda a good example is) as a big divide over what the Force is.

While on the Sith side don't get me wrong we have lots of tricks you can do with the DS (Sith alchemy, sorcery, Palpatine's tricks) there's innovation there and there's innovation in the structure of the Order (A dark mirror of the Jedi vs Bane's rule of two) but every Sith seems to tow the same party line at the end (Hatred = Power).

I think it is most obvious in that Jedi debate themselves over numerous topics, romance seems to be popular, but even when you're debating the stuffiest most orthodox master who won't budge on anything you're still debating.

In contrast Sith only get the chance to debate about the merits of the DS when converting Jedi, and even then the pitch is individualised not by the Sith but by the Jedi's own issues (oh you have a secret gf cool we Sith are all about embracing passion) and it ultimately all leads back to the same philosophy unchanging for millennia regardless of what Darth is pitching it.

I would have thought that the DS, those who chose it would be more keen to get out their own version of the philosophy and they're be a huge numbers of Sith schools of thought.

[BWR]

Most of the difference is that the Sith are in it for power for themselves while the Jedi claim to be servants of the Force. So naturally the Jedi will have a lot of debate on what exactly this entails. The Sith and most other Dark Side sects don't bother much with the the 'what' and 'why', but are concerned with 'how [do I subjugate everyone'. There are differences in approach, though.

Just look at Vader vs. Palpatine. Though both are powerful, Vader is a hammer. Brute force (ha) and raw power. Palpatine is not just powerful, he's intelligent, sneaky, mainpulative and plans everything.

Darth Bane: Path to Power shows some details in philosophy. Is the Dark Side best served with working together and having a great empire of struggling Sith or is a small, elite corps (or duo) the best? While they are all in it for the power, some are more idealistic than others, even if their ideals are rather mean.

KOTOR 2 is like Vader/Palps. Kreia is thoroughly Dark, but she detests the mindless violence sort of Dark sider. Power is power, and manipulation of others is far more effective and useful than mere violence.
TOR has something of the same approach, depending on whether you serve only yourself and cruel impulses or serve the Empire and suppress your own desires for the greater good evil.

[Jayngfet]

The EU has the sith being super-innovative, with a whole bunch of stuff that was made up after the movies. It's actually a little out of hand since the Jedi can apparently just use some variations on push while the Sith have more spells than a 3.X wizard and like eight times as many lightsaber and sword variants.

[Sotharsyl]

Most of the difference is that the Sith are in it for power for themselves while the Jedi claim to be servants of the Force. So naturally the Jedi will have a lot of debate on what exactly this entails. The Sith and most other Dark Side sects don't bother much with the the 'what' and 'why', but are concerned with 'how [do I subjugate everyone'. There are differences in approach, though.


What you're saying does make sense, but as I've often seen the Sith see the Force as a tool, and using that analogy RL human nature has shown that people will start a holy war over tools (Iphone vs Android in the smarphones market) so I'd think there would be some idealogical camps within the Sith.

And that's not even getting into, to extend the technology analogy, power users who want to look under the hood modify get every last bit of use out of their purchase (if anybody knows the vim vs emacs debate)/


The EU has the sith being super-innovative, with a whole bunch of stuff that was made up after the movies. It's actually a little out of hand since the Jedi can apparently just use some variations on push while the Sith have more spells than a 3.X wizard and like eight times as many lightsaber and sword variants.

I probably shouldn't have used "innovative" in the title I agree that Sith are better Force engineers/programmers as it were but it seems to me that Jedi have an advantage in the Force philosophy.

And I might be sending mixed signals but if I know my Force lore, the more you get/understand the Force the more powerful you are so those techniques you mentioned should have had some new philosophy behind them.

For example Qui-Gon was able to come back/have control over his Force Ghost he was implied to manage this due to his philosophy being aligned with the Living Force.

Ep 1 Yoga probably couldn't have done that as he did not believe in the Living Force School but fast forward Yoda adopts some of the LF teachings and boom Force Ghost.

Like you said Sith have a vast array of powers but the philosophy tbehind them has been constant so how do they discover new powers ?

Also if I read wookiepedia correctly, Jedi defined the major lighsaber styles with the Sith having just 1 original style (it involves verbal taunting "yo mama" jokes no really).

[KillianHawkeye]

I think there are more branches and divisions within Jedi philosophy compared to the Sith simply because there are a lot more Jedi around (at least, up until Palpatine takes over) and relatively fewer Sith. Also, being the so-called good guys of the story, the Jedi are more likely to tolerate differing viewpoints, whereas dissenters within the Sith are probably driven out or pressed into conformity by whoever's in charge.

[Jakodee]

There are not force users than just the Jedi and sith. There are various witches, monks, and random people who have found out how to do really cool stuff with the force. Also the Jedi can uses lightning to but it is so hard to use without killing everyone and raging that it isn't really worth it.

[Jayngfet]

There are not force users than just the Jedi and sith. There are various witches, monks, and random people who have found out how to do really cool stuff with the force. Also the Jedi can uses lightning to but it is so hard to use without killing everyone and raging that it isn't really worth it.

How does it kill? Palpatine shot that stuff off for like a full minute and it didn't even leave scars or burn clothes! It's probably less lethal than a taser.

[The_Snark]

It might have something to do with the fact that the Jedi are a long, continuous tradition that's been building on its foundations for millennia, whereas it seems like the Sith keep getting wiped out. If they're lucky, there are a few survivors left to rebuild the order; if not, they're resurrected when some fallen Jedi stumbles across an evil artifact or decides to co-opt an old historical name or something. This produces some innovation (because they're figuring everything out for themselves, rather than being tutored by a long-established tradition), but it also means they never really manage to entrench themselves long enough to spawn lots of competing philosophies and schools of thought.

Also, they're probably a lot quicker to kill students (and peers) who disagree with their philosophy. Best way to head off a potential schism.

The fact that hatred=power is consistent across all the various Sith incarnations suggests that this is, in fact, a fundamental rule of the dark side. They believe it because it holds true (more or less).

[LordChaos13]

I agree with the above

The Sith keep getting wiped out and rebuilt, which means that they have to start from the foundations.

The Jedi are focused, their fighting styles entrenched and complex enough to require a lifetime to master them. But the philosophy, that can be debated and split into camps and does so. The Living Force and other tenets arose from these debates and philosophizing

But the Sith, they rebuild. Their fighting style, their philosophies. But they have to start all over again each time.
Which means the philosophy covers the same base grounds (Hate = Power being the basics, like there are Basic Force Theory 101 that all Jedi theories have as a foundation). It gets done over and over, always to the same results.
But fighting, that has many variants that dont require a baseline combat style. The different Force Powers show what one prioritizes and their imagination when developing it.

[paddyfool]

How does it kill? Palpatine shot that stuff off for like a full minute and it didn't even leave scars or burn clothes! It's probably less lethal than a taser.

I think the in-universe justification for that is that force users are able to defend themselves against it to a certain extent (in the same way that Vader blocks Han's blaster); but you definitely have a point, all the same :)

[Hopeless]

I have always assumed they're one and the same with every so-called faith there are bad parts and those that take advantage for their own benefit.

The Sith are ultimately self defeating until someone realises that Palpatine didn't need to wipe out the Jedi just co-opt it since they couldn't detect his manipulations until he felt ready to discard them and even then it took a converted Jedi to pull that off!

Everything else such as KOTOR and Force Unleashed is someone thinking this is cool rather than something that makes sense of the situation ergo until Star Wars 7 comes out we'll just have to wait and see whether Star Wars Rebels actually changes anything.

How would it have looked if Yoda had been head of a monastic version of the Jedi and Dooku a high ranking member of the Jedi Families who court political power?

The Sith merely a cover story for their subterfuge attempts to deal with those who threaten their position, power and maybe out of spite could even have Palpatine having been a former apprentice of Dooku who ascended to the Chancellor before eliminating his former master using Yoda's Sect as the scapegoat.

That would have meant Yoda's Jedi having to go into hiding since everyone wanted them dead and the Rebel Alliance floundered until Luke Skywalker appeared the son of the only Jedi that officially didn't turn against the Old Republic and the remaining Jedi's only hope of restoring their former reputation so they could reemerge without the threat of being slain on sight?

Sorry I'm not a fan of the Sith as depicted and the way they treated the Jedi Council only reinforces my view.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the fundamental difference is that the Sith way is all about power and practical uses of the Force ("Through X, I gain Y") while the Jedi are, barring wartime mobilization, all about philosophy and study ("There is no A, there is B"). You have Sith philosophers, but they tend inevitably toward thinking only of new techniques to prolong their own lives or shorten their enemies'. You have warlike Jedi, but they tend inevitably to either get their asses killed or retire somewhere nice and quiet away from galactic politics (or both, if they're Obi-Wan).

I think this is rather fundamental to the philosophy - the Sith way exists for personal betterment, the Jedi way exists for the sake of exploring the metaphysical side of the universe. Delving far into either philosophy, even just for the sake of understanding the Force, tends to massively dominate a person's way of thinking, which is why Sith almost inevitably become warlords and Jedi almost inevitably become ascetics.

[Jallorn]

Another way to look at it is that the Sith are in fact a sect of the Jedi. Where the main Jedi "church" is tolerant of some divisions within its walls, they aren't tolerant of others. So Living Force can coexist peacefully with the standard dogma, but the Sith can't. Meanwhile, the Sith are such hardliners, that anything that doesn't meet their demands gets destroyed or shoved away.

[Fjolnir]

Combine the concept of only two Sith in the galaxy (one to teach, the other to covet) and the eventual goal was for darth bane to through serial possession, find a way to make himself the immortal ruler of the galaxy (he possibly made this work up until darth plagueis, who was poisioned in his sleep by palpatine) of course the dark side will be less innovative but show a strong power base, until very recently it was the collective knowledge of a single being.

[Sotharsyl]

I have always assumed they're one and the same with every so-called faith there are bad parts and those that take advantage for their own benefit.

The Sith are ultimately self defeating until someone realises that Palpatine didn't need to wipe out the Jedi just co-opt it since they couldn't detect his manipulations until he felt ready to discard them and even then it took a converted Jedi to pull that off!

I've often tried to think if it were possible somehow to get the Jedi and Sith to co-exist somewhat peacefully.


Combine the concept of only two Sith in the galaxy (one to teach, the other to covet) and the eventual goal was for darth bane to through serial possession, find a way to make himself the immortal ruler of the galaxy (he possibly made this work up until darth plagueis, who was poisioned in his sleep by palpatine) of course the dark side will be less innovative but show a strong power base, until very recently it was the collective knowledge of a single being.

I agree with what you're saying but I just want to add that beyond the movies the Sith are a lot of the time structured like a fully fledged order with hundreds of Sith active at the same time.

The Rule of Two Sith are great for suspense/mystery stories but sometimes you just need a lot of Sith to cut through.

An in-story reason is that the Sith are often rebooted when a Jedi goes dark, thus a dark mirror of the order seems a very good ideea in their minds (for ex: Revan).

Also while Bane's sith produced the most successfully Sith (Vader/Sidious) the Sith who tend to leave holocrons/dark ruins/ancient scrolls of evil behind are the Sith civilisations, so when the Sith Order gets rebooted Korriban seems to be a big influence.

Also could you explain that thing about an immortal Bane please ?


Another way to look at it is that the Sith are in fact a sect of the Jedi. Where the main Jedi "church" is tolerant of some divisions within its walls, they aren't tolerant of others. So Living Force can coexist peacefully with the standard dogma, but the Sith can't. Meanwhile, the Sith are such hardliners, that anything that doesn't meet their demands gets destroyed or shoved away.

There was a really interesting, imho at least, line in KOTOR 2 that the war between the Revan's Sith and the Jedi was seen as a civil war, because the general population couldn't clearly distinguish the sides, both wear robes, both use lighsabers, both use freaky powers, both can't shut up about mistic mumbo-jumbo :smallbiggrin:

Brown robes vs black and red sabers vs blue/green/yellow apparently don't count.

I've been kicking around ideeas for a mirror universe to SW, in which the dominant power is the Galactic Empire which existed for over a thousand generations under the "protection" of the Order of Sith Lords.

This would allow for more schools of thought in the Sith, even as they stand guard against the Jedi, a secretive order of heretics who unnable to survive the rigours of Sith life have embraced the most extreme "no fun" version of the canon Jedi's philosophy ... and are scheming to reshapee the galaxi in their image.


I think the fundamental difference is that the Sith way is all about power and practical uses of the Force ("Through X, I gain Y") while the Jedi are, barring wartime mobilization, all about philosophy and study ("There is no A, there is B"). You have Sith philosophers, but they tend inevitably toward thinking only of new techniques to prolong their own lives or shorten their enemies'. You have warlike Jedi, but they tend inevitably to either get their asses killed or retire somewhere nice and quiet away from galactic politics (or both, if they're Obi-Wan).

I think this is rather fundamental to the philosophy - the Sith way exists for personal betterment, the Jedi way exists for the sake of exploring the metaphysical side of the universe. Delving far into either philosophy, even just for the sake of understanding the Force, tends to massively dominate a person's way of thinking, which is why Sith almost inevitably become warlords and Jedi almost inevitably become ascetics.

I completely agree with this post.

[BWR]

Also could you explain that thing about an immortal Bane please ?



There was a really interesting, imho at least, line in KOTOR 2 that the war between the Revan's Sith and the Jedi was seen as a civil war, because the general population couldn't clearly distinguish the sides, both wear robes, both use lighsabers, both use freaky powers, both can't shut up about mistic mumbo-jumbo :smallbiggrin:

Brown robes vs black and red sabers vs blue/green/yellow apparently don't count.


1. A misunderstanding of what happened in the last book about Darth Bane. He had been researching immortality, in part because he wanted to live, in part because he began to fear his apprentice didn't have the right stuff. One of the things he looked into was body-hopping. In the final battle against his apprentice, Bane tries to body-hop. In the end Bane's body lies dead but the apprentice has a body tic that Bane used to have. Some have interpreted this as Bane successfully jumping, which we have the Word of God (http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?page_id=162)is not the case - Zannah won, Bane died and no one else jumped bodies.

2. To be fair, you can see why most people would think so. Revan's Sith were not the Sith Empire of the Great Hyperspace War - an obvious outsider waging war on you. Revan and his cronies were legitimate Jedi who defeated the Mandalorians, were heroes, disappeared, then came back and tried to take over. Nearly all his Sith were former Jedi. It really was a Jedi civil war. If Revan's folks are former Jedi, taking over, fighting Jedi and everybody uses the same weapons, no one is going to believe these are not internal Jedi squabbles rather than Reven &co. suddenly morphing into something not-Jedi.

[Legato Endless]

Most of the difference is that the Sith are in it for power for themselves while the Jedi claim to be servants of the Force. So naturally the Jedi will have a lot of debate on what exactly this entails. The Sith and most other Dark Side sects don't bother much with the the 'what' and 'why', but are concerned with 'how [do I subjugate everyone'. There are differences in approach, though.

Just look at Vader vs. Palpatine. Though both are powerful, Vader is a hammer. Brute force (ha) and raw power. Palpatine is not just powerful, he's intelligent, sneaky, mainpulative and plans everything.

Darth Bane: Path to Power shows some details in philosophy. Is the Dark Side best served with working together and having a great empire of struggling Sith or is a small, elite corps (or duo) the best? While they are all in it for the power, some are more idealistic than others, even if their ideals are rather mean.

KOTOR 2 is like Vader/Palps. Kreia is thoroughly Dark, but she detests the mindless violence sort of Dark sider. Power is power, and manipulation of others is far more effective and useful than mere violence.
TOR has something of the same approach, depending on whether you serve only yourself and cruel impulses or serve the Empire and suppress your own desires for the greater good evil.

Palpatine and Vader are good example of philosophical differences beyond their styles. Vader is cold and efficient. He punishes his officers with the goal that their successors will stop failing and produce results. He wants order above all else. The dark side is a path to that power. Palpatine is a better manipulator, but also more cruel. He revels in senseless pain and suffering. The dark side was, or at least has become a chance to revel in his ego and darker impulses.

Vader prefers direct applications with the force itself, and beyond that, elite troops and fleets. He's a solider. Palpatine, ever elusive, prefers to obfuscate things with other tools, such as technological monstrosities of fear. It also suits his sense of the dramatic.

[hamishspence]

Palpatine and Vader are good example of philosophical differences beyond their styles. Vader is cold and efficient. He punishes his officers with the goal that their successors will stop failing and produce results. He wants order above all else. The dark side is a path to that power. Palpatine is a better manipulator, but also more cruel. He revels in senseless pain and suffering.

And Vader even comments on it, on occasion:

In Tales of the Bounty Hunters, when talking to Dengar (who's been captured an is in a cell), he contrasts himself with the Emperor):


"If you're not going to kill me, get it over with! I've got nothing to lose!" Denger shouted. "But I won't make it fun for you!"
"I'm not the Emperor," Vader said ominously. "I don't kill for amusement - only when it serves my purposes."
Dengar smiled. "Well, then we have something in common."
"It appears that we have more than one thing in common-" Vader said, "we both want Han Solo...."
"Unfortunately," he continued, "I have an Imperial death warrant against you. I cannot revoke that warrant, but I am willing to consider a reprieve."
"Under what conditions?" Dengar asked.
"I will let you live, to hunt for Han Solo. Once you find him, you bring him and his friends back to me, alive. After that, if I am well pleased, I may spare you. But if I am not pleased by your performance, I will give you time to run. Then my hunt begins."

[MCerberus]

Let's add in the whole concept of Sith Alchemy to the mix. The Sith have been going beyond what a person can manifest themselves to tug at the very nature of life... with the usual "they're all abominations" side-effect.

I mean a Sith Lord once created a zombie plague that took over the under-layers of an urban planet for funsies.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I think the answer is no, but not for the reasons you think, the starwars setting as far as I can tell as a whole is stagnant technologically and culturally.

The Jedi order had not changed (previous to the events of the original trilogy) in several thousand years, and the sith had not changed since the rule of two became the custom, and nothing changed with them..till they were effectively eliminated outright by Luke.

[hamishspence]

The Jedi order had not changed (previous to the events of the original trilogy) in several thousand years, and the sith had not changed since the rule of two became the custom, and nothing changed with them..till they were effectively eliminated outright by Luke.

Yoda seems to think otherwise in the RoTS novel- he thinks that the Sith had evolved but the Jedi hadn't:


There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is ...

[Sotharsyl]

Yoda seems to think otherwise in the RoTS novel- he thinks that the Sith had evolved but the Jedi hadn't:


There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is ...


That last sentence, A master of understatement, Yoda is.

I want to thank you I've noticed you're always on hand with illuminating quotes from the books whenever we have these SW discussions on the gitp forums.

Yoda's thoughts are very clear on the subject, still it would be awesome if we could see a Sith's pov on the evolution of the order that would really seal the deal.

[masamune1]

The Sith equivalent to the Unifying Force / Living Force debate is probably the question of whether the Dark Side is something that a Sith can control.

Officially, the Sith believe that the Force serves them and can be bent to their will, which would be roughly their version of the Unifying Force dogma. Its the main party line, and it places emphasis on emotional control- even if the Sith believe Hate equals Power, if the Sith believes that the Force must be controlled then he has to believe that a certain amount of emotional control is essential.

Guys like Palpatine and Vader are a bit different. Although its not explicitly elaborated on, their POV sections and dialogue make it clear that they regard themselves as working with the Dark Side, not trying to master it. They tend towards speaking and thinking of the Dark Side as something incredibly powerful and the only limits being their own. Palpatine in particular seems to see himself almost as an agent of the Dark Side, the personification of its will. This kind of thing is like the Living Force.

And of course there are those Sith who, like Grey Jedi, think that there is only one Force that is neither Dark nor Light, and espouse moral relativism. They think its all a creation of emotions and the individual.

Also, besides all that, every Sith has his or her own specific agenda. Vader, for instance, wanted to "bring order to the galaxy" and thought the Dark Side was stronger than the Light and the best way to achieve his goal. Dooku had similar goals about ending the corruption and decadence of that permeated the Republic (and novelization of RotS also gives him some speciest, pro-human ideas, but I think they can be discarded). Kreia wished to kill the Force itself; Revan wanted to fight the Sith Empire; Sion wished to kill all remaining Jedi; Nihilus was a slave to his / her ravenous Hunger; Malak was power-mad; Bane was dedicated to the Sith Order; etc., etc.

[hamishspence]

In the Darth Plagueis novel (and Darth Plagueis's sections of the Book of Sith) we find out that it wasn't just a case of continuous improvements- the Rule of Two Sith suffered various setbacks as well as successes.




Officially, the Sith believe that the Force serves them and can be bent to their will, which would be roughly their version of the Unifying Force dogma. Its the main party line, and it places emphasis on emotional control- even if the Sith believe Hate equals Power, if the Sith believes that the Force must be controlled then he has to believe that a certain amount of emotional control is essential.

Guys like Palpatine and Vader are a bit different. Although its not explicitly elaborated on, their POV sections and dialogue make it clear that they regard themselves as working with the Dark Side, not trying to master it. They tend towards speaking and thinking of the Dark Side as something incredibly powerful and the only limits being their own. Palpatine in particular seems to see himself almost as an agent of the Dark Side, the personification of its will. This kind of thing is like the Living Force.

Which POV sections are you thinking of?

In Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter (p46), Sidious sees the Force as "above such petty concepts as positive and negative, black and white, good and evil" and that the Force is "a means to an end, and that end is Power."

It's possible that his attitude changes over time though- to the point that, by Dark Empire, he's saying "I AM the Dark Side!"

Interestingly, the Holocron of Darth Revan (from which Darth Bane got his Rule of Two ideas from) said "All those who use the Dark Side are bound to serve it."

So a case could be made that mainstream Sith dogma, even if it has an element of "control the Force, rather than serving it" also has an element of "serve the Dark Side, rather than simply controlling it."

[masamune1]

Its depending on the writer, I guess, but that's definitely not the impression I got of him from the movies and other works. For the Palpatine I know, the Dark Side is power.

[hamishspence]

In Revenge of the Sith (novel) we see Dooku thinking that Palpatine is:

"a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf the power of the dark side itself."

and in Book of Sith, Palpatine is rather sniffy about Plagueis's focus on the Force and midi-chlorian manipulation- saying that he:

"neglected his greatest talent- manipulating the strings that kept the galaxy from degenerating into anarchy."

Which is not to say that the Dark Side isn't immensely important to him- just that it's not the only tool he uses.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Yoda seems to think otherwise in the RoTS novel- he thinks that the Sith had evolved but the Jedi hadn't:


There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is ...


Yoda was wrong here though, nothing Palpatine did was really the sith as a whole learning to avoid the mistakes of the past and was just Palpatine being a sneaky rat.

Vader still attempted to pull the stupid sith betrayal schemes that have gone on since ToR, also I am not sure the fight between Yoda and Palps can really be a fair shake of their power levels, Palps has had years to prepare for this fight yoda had like a day, remember earlier in the movie Mace kicked the snot out of Palpatine and would have won if not for Anakin being stupid.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yoda was wrong here though, nothing Palpatine did was really the sith as a whole learning to avoid the mistakes of the past and was just Palpatine being a sneaky rat.

Vader still attempted to pull the stupid sith betrayal schemes that have gone on since ToR, also I am not sure the fight between Yoda and Palps can really be a fair shake of their power levels, Palps has had years to prepare for this fight yoda had like a day, remember earlier in the movie Mace kicked the snot out of Palpatine and would have won if not for Anakin being stupid.

To be fair to the TOR Sith Empire, their ancestors in the Ancient Sith Empire were already doing that (Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow did more damage to each other than the Republic ever could have hoped to). Judging by Malak's Shenanigans and everything the Sith Triumvirate ever does, it's a compulsion that comes along with taking the title of Sith. It's a little less noticeable in Bane's tradition because he went ahead and just built it into the system.

[Friv]

I've often tried to think if it were possible somehow to get the Jedi and Sith to co-exist somewhat peacefully.

To quote the Sith themselves: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion."

In order to get those groups to co-exist, you would have to change the Sith to a degree that they wouldn't be the Sith anymore.

In addition, since the Dark Side is generally shown to be inherently corrupting and addictive, any order that was entirely anchored in the Dark Side would have similar problems co-existing with other groups in any kind of peace more full than a temporary cease-fire to regain their strength before the next offensive.

[Tavar]

It might have something to do with the fact that the Jedi are a long, continuous tradition that's been building on its foundations for millennia, whereas it seems like the Sith keep getting wiped out. If they're lucky, there are a few survivors left to rebuild the order; if not, they're resurrected when some fallen Jedi stumbles across an evil artifact or decides to co-opt an old historical name or something. This produces some innovation (because they're figuring everything out for themselves, rather than being tutored by a long-established tradition), but it also means they never really manage to entrench themselves long enough to spawn lots of competing philosophies and schools of thought.

Also, they're probably a lot quicker to kill students (and peers) who disagree with their philosophy. Best way to head off a potential schism.

The fact that hatred=power is consistent across all the various Sith incarnations suggests that this is, in fact, a fundamental rule of the dark side. They believe it because it holds true (more or less).
It's a bit more complicated than that.

See, the Jedi we all know and love are representative of a very, very, very small part of the entire Jedi order at it's height. But the vast majority of those were wiped out during one of the Jedi/Sith Wars. Seriously, it went from the Temple Jedi being a minority within the order to suddenly being at least equal with the all the rest of the Jedi orders combined. And the Temple Jedi were apparently somewhat notoriously conservative and uptight. Well, you know how that turned out.

As for the Sith, well, they do have the monopoly on the high tier stuff, for largely the same meta-reason as the Empire keeps pulling Super Weapons out of Palpatine's butt: lazy writers and world building. Some of this is due to the first Interstellar Empire was heavily dark-side focused(for instance, the Stellar Forge was from Kotor was one of theirs). There is also the fact that the 'Sith only' stuff(like Sith Alchemy) seems a bit more suited to innovation. I mean, both sides get telekinesis. The Sith get magic!Chemistry. Which one do you think is going to get more out of research?

Incidentally, Star Wars isn't really in a stasis. It's more that we only seen isolated snippets, and those snippets seem to focus only on the points were things have plateaued. Between those times, things are a bit crazy.

Also, the Jedi could probably have managed to get along with the Bantha Sith. He's a Sith that liked baby Bantha.

Yoda was wrong here though, nothing Palpatine did was really the sith as a whole learning to avoid the mistakes of the past and was just Palpatine being a sneaky rat.
I believe there is some implication that the Sith spent some time shaping the galaxy/Jedi to suit their wishes. Palpatine was good, no doubt about it, but the Sith had a long time.


Vader still attempted to pull the stupid sith betrayal schemes that have gone on since ToR, also I am not sure the fight between Yoda and Palps can really be a fair shake of their power levels, Palps has had years to prepare for this fight yoda had like a day, remember earlier in the movie Mace kicked the snot out of Palpatine and would have won if not for Anakin being stupid.
Mace is, canonically, a better combatant, and was using a Style that was extremely good vs a dark side user.

And while Anikin did screw things up for him...I fail to see why Palpatine using his manipulations in order to turn someone to his side to win should be a downside.

[SmartAlec]

In most incarnations, I don't think the Jedi Order encourages innovation when it comes to the use of the Force. It's something to be respected and listened to, instead of analysed and manipulated using weird science as some of the Sith do.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Mace is, canonically, a better combatant, and was using a Style that was extremely good vs a dark side user.

And while Anikin did screw things up for him...I fail to see why Palpatine using his manipulations in order to turn someone to his side to win should be a downside.

it is not, but it is not being innovative in the force, it is manipulating a rash young teenager, if that is being innovative in the force Advertising Executives are the most innovative force users in all history :smallwink:

[Tavar]

it is not, but it is not being innovative in the force, it is manipulating a rash young teenager, if that is being innovative in the force Advertising Executives are the most innovative force users in all history :smallwink:

In that case...need I point out that Palpatine canonically clouded the vision of the entire Jedi Order?

[ryuplaneswalker]

In that case...need I point out that Palpatine canonically clouded the vision of the entire Jedi Order?

I concede that he did it, but I don't think that really counts as innovative, it is just mind trick on a large scale but eh I will let it slide so we have one example of innovation with the force in star wars, well no we have two examples.

Darth Plagas creating life with the force, but I think that the Cloning-Aliens can at least match that. As I said before I just think everyone in star wars are stagnant and lack innovation, it is honestly one of the reasons the KOTOR stuff never drew me in, 10 thousand years ago things should be vastly different from how they were in the Movies.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I concede that he did it, but I don't think that really counts as innovative, it is just mind trick on a large scale but eh I will let it slide so we have one example of innovation with the force in star wars, well no we have two examples.

Darth Plagas creating life with the force, but I think that the Cloning-Aliens can at least match that. As I said before I just think everyone in star wars are stagnant and lack innovation, it is honestly one of the reasons the KOTOR stuff never drew me in, 10 thousand years ago things should be vastly different from how they were in the Movies.

4000 years ago. I also suggest you look into the Tales of the Jedi comics that take place shortly before KOTOR but have a very different aesthetic, probably because Bioware is good, just really lazy about worldbuilding sometimes.

On the other hand, TotJ was largely written by Kevin J. Anderson, so maybe just look at the pretty panoramic shots and ignore the plot. And the character design.

[SmartAlec]

I also suggest you look into the Tales of the Jedi comics that take place shortly before KOTOR but have a very different aesthetic, probably because Bioware is good, just really lazy about worldbuilding sometimes.

I think that might be less to do with laziness, and more trying to provide a setting more familiar to your average Star Wars fan.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think that might be less to do with laziness, and more trying to provide a setting more familiar to your average Star Wars fan.

If they wanted to make a game set during the Star Wars prequels they really should have set it during the Star Wars prequels. Or if they still wanted room to play around with their own stuff, there was always the New Sith Wars, which I don't think got fleshed out beyond "there was a big battle on Ruusan" until several years after KOTOR1, and that would have allowed a couple thousand years technological development between "blasters were just invented" and the stuff we see in KOTOR.

[SmartAlec]

If they wanted to make a game set during the Star Wars prequels they really should have set it during the Star Wars prequels...

Put simply, they had a story they intended to tell, and they needed both the freedom to do everything they wanted without being constrained by canon, while keeping it similar in tone to the movies. Setting things during the Prequels, or during the events that led to the prequels (New Sith Wars) might have invited more direct oversight from Lucas etc than they wanted.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Put simply, they had a story they intended to tell, and they needed both the freedom to do everything they wanted without being constrained by canon, while keeping it similar in tone to the movies. Setting things during the Prequels, or during the events that led to the prequels (New Sith Wars) might have invited more direct oversight from Lucas etc than they wanted.

Because Lucas pays any attention whatsoever to things established in the EU.

I'm just sad at the missed opportunity of the New Sith Wars option, really. That connects a lot more closely to other major plot arcs (including the actual films) than the KOTOR 'trilogy' we got - which is set up as a direct sequel to Tales of the Jedi, yet barely acknowledges it. That said, maybe a connection to the greater metanarrative was what they were trying to avoid, as you say.

[Trixie]

There are 10.000 Jedi and 2 Sith. Even if individual Jedi was 1000 times less innovative, Jedi Order as a whole will be 5 as innovative as the Sith are.

And anyway, I don't believe there was a big difference. Sith might be more... "innovative" in a way scientist without ethics is. He doesn't have as much barrier and can reach the end point faster, but that's it. The only big difference would be the fact Jedi refuse to use Dark side at all, while Sith do dabble with Light side occasionally, if less effectively. That might cause them to find details the other side missed, but they don't have any inherent bonus or negative.

Ok, maybe one, if you're stupid Jedi, well, you get to waste public money and education with your existence. Sith, one way or another, don't have that problem :smallyuk:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Is the Jedi Order publically funded, though, or do they just have a large established bank account to build all these sweet temples with? I don't think anyone's ever tried to explain where the Order gets their resources from except during wars where they are explicitly allied with the Republic. I don't think there's ever been a point in canon where the Jedi Order was literally a funded part of the Republic government, although there might be Generous Donations involved in things like the Coruscant Temple.

[Trixie]

Is the Jedi Order publically funded, though, or do they just have a large established bank account to build all these sweet temples with? I don't think anyone's ever tried to explain where the Order gets their resources from except during wars where they are explicitly allied with the Republic. I don't think there's ever been a point in canon where the Jedi Order was literally a funded part of the Republic government, although there might be Generous Donations involved in things like the Coruscant Temple.

Well, land on Coruscant is supposed to be horrifically expensive, and Jedi have this huge, airy temple that must consume enormous amounts of electricity, running water, food, not to say anything about land taxes and such. These donations would need to be truly enormous to sustain something that had no visible means of earning income.


4000 years ago. I also suggest you look into the Tales of the Jedi comics that take place shortly before KOTOR but have a very different aesthetic, probably because Bioware is good, just really lazy about worldbuilding sometimes.

One point, the TotJ comics with different aesthetic were the ones placed 5000 years, millenium before KotOR. And they were truly stupid - barefooted Sith Egyptians with elephants fighting Republic Bedouins with swords. KJA can truly poison everything he touches.

The Exar Kun era comics, especially the Redemption, look very close to the games, maybe a bit more primitive, but then, there was almost a century of development since. I thought KotOR was fairly accurate in portrayal, in fact.

Oh, and the 'we barely invented blasters' era was in times of Xim the Despot, 25.000 years ago, shortly after fall of Rakatans. Yeah, SW Galaxy is kind of stagnant :smallcool:

[Tavar]

I concede that he did it, but I don't think that really counts as innovative, it is just mind trick on a large scale but eh I will let it slide so we have one example of innovation with the force in star wars, well no we have two examples.
Except it completely ignores all the normal rules mind trick works under and does something completely different.

Darth Plagas creating life with the force, but I think that the Cloning-Aliens can at least match that.
Can you stop moving those goalposts? The fact that some aliens can create clones using technology and the Sith can do it through completely different means, with completely different benefits and drawbacks, doesn't really say anything about their innovation.

As I said before I just think everyone in star wars are stagnant and lack innovation, it is honestly one of the reasons the KOTOR stuff never drew me in, 10 thousand years ago things should be vastly different from how they were in the Movies.
There's quite a lot of innovation in Star Wars. The main issue is that things keep getting lost in the Apocalpses that happen pretty regularly. Well, that and the fact that some of their best technology is essentially Clarketech(did you know that Hyperdrives work by using the Force?).

Plus, I'd point out that in KOTOR there's a lot of stuff that isn't in the Movies(lightsaber resistant materials, personal shields).


There are 10.000 Jedi and 2 Sith. Even if individual Jedi was 1000 times less innovative, Jedi Order as a whole will be 5 as innovative as the Sith are.Pretty sure that's not how innovation works.

[Kyberwulf]

I like to think, that the reason things aren't so different between The New Hope era and Kotor. Is because technology will eventually hit a cap. You can only go so far before you invented it all. Things might get lost in time and you have to rediscover them, eventually though.. it all has been discovered.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, land on Coruscant is supposed to be horrifically expensive, and Jedi have this huge, airy temple that must consume enormous amounts of electricity, running water, food, not to say anything about land taxes and such. These donations would need to be truly enormous to sustain something that had no visible means of earning income.

To be fair, they've owned the land (which now that I look it up, was in fact a Republic grant) almost since there was actual visible ground there. Most of the rest of it can probably be covered with a tax exempt status and their particular property grant extending arbitrarily along the vertical axis.




One point, the TotJ comics with different aesthetic were the ones placed 5000 years, millenium before KotOR. And they were truly stupid - barefooted Sith Egyptians with elephants fighting Republic Bedouins with swords. KJA can truly poison everything he touches.

The Exar Kun era comics, especially the Redemption, look very close to the games, maybe a bit more primitive, but then, there was almost a century of development since. I thought KotOR was fairly accurate in portrayal, in fact.

Oh, and the 'we barely invented blasters' era was in times of Xim the Despot, 25.000 years ago, shortly after fall of Rakatans. Yeah, SW Galaxy is kind of stagnant :smallcool:

I was thinking more about the earlier arcs with Ulic Qel-Droma, but to be fair Onderon is kind of a backwater ****hole in those. And I liked the Aztecgyptian Sith, too, I just don't expect Anderson to understand the idea of scale or weapons technology, because he invented the ****ing Sun Crusher.

(Also I was exaggerating the difference between "pulse-wave guns" and "blasters" for effect - some point between TotJ and KOTOR 1 is apparently when the galaxy made a total switchover and developed a billion blaster variations in the meantime.)

[Tavar]

To be fair, they've owned the land (which now that I look it up, was in fact a Republic grant) almost since there was actual visible ground there. Most of the rest of it can probably be covered with a tax exempt status and their particular property grant extending arbitrarily along the vertical axis.
The fact that they are heavily affiliated with the government likely plays into it. And don't forget the non-Jedi Knights affiliated with the temple. After all, most force sensitives are not Jedi, they're in one of the other corps.

[Sotharsyl]

Vis a vis technological innovation at least some time between KOTOR and Episode I the Republic stopped handing out swords to their army and switched to all ranged :smalltongue:

Also about technological innovation, wookiepedia mentions a race which was apparently so advanced that they hit a plateau and their Scientist caste, it was a caste bast society, simply was deemed no longer necessary.

Which lead to their Engineer class completely forgetting how their tech actually works but that's another story.

If I was the head of the Jedi Order I'd simply inform the Senate that without the Jedi training and effectively policing the best and brightest Force Users said Force Users would have a let's say 50% chance of tuning to the Dark Side and even if they're no where near Sidious or Vader in power quantity has a quality of it's own.

[Tavar]

If I was the head of the Jedi Order I'd simply inform the Senate that without the Jedi training and effectively policing the best and brightest Force Users said Force Users would have a let's say 50% chance of tuning to the Dark Side and even if they're no where near Sidious or Vader in power quantity has a quality of it's own.

It's actually probably worse than that, both in percentages and effect. I mean, their mental manipulation stuff is usually shown to be pretty basic, but it is also terrifying for most people, and a Dark Side user would be using it quite a bit. The most important function of the Jedi Temple is to police Force Users. That's the vast majority of their numbers.

[Blightedmarsh]

Things the sith invented:

1) Halcyons
2) Alchemy
-Plagues
-beasts
-lightsaber resistant materials
3) Modern light sabers.
4) various darkside subcultures

I think that the sith tend to play things close to their chests in terms of personal philosophy; need to know basis only. I also think that they record their techniques as a kind of vanity, so that people long after the recorder is dead can marvel at his or her cleverness and ideals. They don't want people to know what they can do or how or why when they are still alive because they want to remain that way.

The jedi on the other hand have shown to be quite intollerant to decent and counterveiws. They have gone so far as to excommunicate people who want to use heavy personal weapons as well as people who would rather go unarmed. Debate is all well and good but the order demands conformity.

[Tectonic Robot]

If they wanted to make a game set during the Star Wars prequels they really should have set it during the Star Wars prequels. Or if they still wanted room to play around with their own stuff, there was always the New Sith Wars, which I don't think got fleshed out beyond "there was a big battle on Ruusan" until several years after KOTOR1, and that would have allowed a couple thousand years technological development between "blasters were just invented" and the stuff we see in KOTOR.

I'm fairly sure you're underestimating the amount of EU stuff that came out after the movies.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm fairly sure you're underestimating the amount of EU stuff that came out after the movies.

I'm mostly trying to figure out the timeline on when New Sith Wars stuff was published and failing. I do know that the majority of EU properties prior to Episode I were sequels, with most prequels being character focused and Tales of the Jedi being the standout piece for establishing galactic history (which George Lucas went ahead and completely ignored, necessitating a number of retcons that were fleshed out when people got around to writing about the New Sith Wars and Darth Bane in - I believe - the mid-00's.)

[hamishspence]

I'm mostly trying to figure out the timeline on when New Sith Wars stuff was published and failing.

The first source to reference it (not under that name) was Dark Forces: Jedi Knight- the game was released in October 1997, the novelisations (Part II and Part III of the trilogy of Dark Forces novelisations) were released in 1998. Part III is the one that covers the last battle of what would come to be known as the New Sith Wars- and that was released in October 1998.

The Phantom Menace novelization was released in April 1999. Its account of the birth (and fall) of the Sith Order puts the "Sith founding" some 2000 years before, and the length of time the Sith have been believed extinct (due to Darth Bane going into hiding) as 1000-odd years.

In The Essential Chronology (April 2000) this was retconned into being an account of one schism- with the actual origin of the Sith Order being much earlier. It ties the Darth Bane character mentioned in the TPM novelization to the Battle of Ruusan mentioned in the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight material.

The short story Bane of the Sith was published in January 2001 in Star Wars Gamer- and ties the Darth Bane character mentioned in the TPM novelization to the Battle of Ruusan mentioned in the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight material. - and expands on Darth Bane's background.

Between April 2001 and September 2001 ran the Jedi vs Sith comic- which provides backstory to Bane of the Sith - though it does contradict both Bane of the Sith and the Dark Forces II material in places: so, retcons.

The term "New Sith Wars" is first used in a WOTC online article: part 6 of a series of Dark-Forces articles - running April to June 2005.

The New Essential Chronology (October 2005) expands on the New Sith Wars.

In June 2006, in the Star Wars Insider 88 online supplement Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties the person who started the New Sith Wars around 2000 years before TPM and 1000 years before Darth Bane, is described in detail: Darth Ruin.

The Darth Bane: Path of Destruction novel (September 2006) and the Darth Bane: Rule of Two novel (December 2007) retell some of the events of Jedi vs Sith and Bane of the Sith respectively (plus lots of new material) - with more minor contradictions and so retcons.

The Essential Atlas (August 2009) expands on the war a bit more- with maps.

The Essential Guide to Warfare (April 2012) gives us a bit more background on major Bane-era characters like Kaan and Hoth, as well as the nature of the Jedi Order during this period.

The Knight Errant comics and novel, while set during the New Sith Wars- have little to do with Kaan's group of Sith at the time they are set.

I think however that The Essential Guide to Warfare may allude to Kaan, as a Jedi Master, going into the territory of the Knight Errant Sith, Falling To the Dark Side, and taking them over, uniting the squabbling factions, and becoming their leader, before waging war against the Republic

[Nerd-o-rama]

So my original point was that prior to 2003, very little about this thousand-year Jedi/Sith conflict was expanded upon, and had they wanted to/been allowed to by Lucasarts, Bioware could have fleshed it out, rather than making a sort of distant sequel to the Tales of the Jedi comics.

[hamishspence]

So my original point was that prior to 2003, very little about this thousand-year Jedi/Sith conflict was expanded upon, and had they wanted to/been allowed to by Lucasarts, Bioware could have fleshed it out, rather than making a sort of distant sequel to the Tales of the Jedi comics.

True. I think more recently, in WOTC material- one character from a couple of hundred years before Bane was fleshed out:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Rivan

but it is a very long period and there could have been a lot more done with it, had the opportunity been taken and Lucasfilm Licencing agreed.