Core 3.5 Solo One-Shot... Scout Crossbowman?

[Shadowdagger213]

Hello again GITP'ers,

This is my challenge...

With only Core, Splats, PHB2 and possibly the Dragonomicon, I'm trying to make a survivable Solo in an outdoors/woodland/cave crawl adventure my Stepson is running for me.

My stats are as follows: 17, 15, 15, 15, 14, 11.

I want to make a Crossbow Specialist Scout. Level 10.

Tentative Stat Spread is this:

STR 14
DEX 17 (+1 @ lvl 4) for 18
CON 15
INT 15
WIS 15
CHA 11

Only having access to shortbows and crossbows (and not immediately wanting to go to Elf for the Longbow proficiency), can a Single Class Scout be viable with a Crossbow?

With my 2nd best number being only a +2 bonus, on a composite shortbow if I give him a 14 STR he'd be doing d6+2 damage with a BAB @ +7/+2. With a Light Crossbow using Crossbow Sniper and a Dex I can only afford to bring up to a 20 at best (Gloves of Dex +2) that would give me a d8+2 on damage without having to MAD up this build too much.

I've read the forums (This one being the best I've found so far!) :smallbiggrin:, and I know about the Swift Hunter and Ambusher for that matter. I want the skills so multiclassing with Ranger kinda cuts that back. With a Rogue the skills stay there but the BAB goes down, and the Listen, Spot, and Survival skill get cut back. (My stepson will get frustrated with me mowing down legions of goblins, skeletons, orcs and bugbears, only to have me die of "exposure" because I can't find shelter or food.)

Can a crossbow specialist at this level, in this system, survive? I'm probably gonna give this a whirl anyway just for the style. Or could a tweaked "Wilderness Rogue" do better? (And how would I viably build that for that matter?)

Maybe a Human Paragon, pick my 10 skills, Adaptive Learning on Survival, Skill Focus on Survival, and the other nine I could maintain with Able Learner for the 1 point cross class cost. Then instead of having to move all the time to activate Skirmish I could just attack from cover for more SA dice. (The d6 Hit Die would be a problem as opposed to the d8 the Scout gets.....Grrr)


The floor is open....

[D4rkh0rus]

Now, pardon me if you absolutely want to use crossbows, but from your post, you seem to want to use a longbow, but even then, you can just use this build with TWF tree instead of bow tree and it works as well if not better. (Of course you take the Crossbow related feats... But a bow is much, much better for a ranged build focused on applying precision dmg in my opinion. the sheer amount of attacks that apply skirmish dmg... I may or may not be wrong.

5 lvls of scout, 4 lvls of ranger 1 lvl of Cloistered Cleric. Swift Hunter Feat. (from Comp Adventurer or scoundrel, I forget. Its still a splat)

You get best of both worlds, full martial proffs, animal companion (trade it for familiar as per the cityweb enhancements), full skirmish progression, and a bunch of other goodies. like travel devotion. you BaB remains +7, as if you had taken 10 lvls of scout, you can trade 1 scout lvl for a ranger level to get it +8, but you would forfeit evasion. your choice.

I would go

Scout 1
Scout 1/Ranger 1
Scout 1/Ranger 2
Scout 1/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 2/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 3/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 4/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 5/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 5/Ranger 3/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 4/Ranger 4/Cloistered Cleric 1

by your mention of human paragon you're taking human. so

lvl 1 feat + human feat + 2 flaws + 3 lvl feats (3, 6, 9)
7 feats total. + 1 scout feat, but that one's being used for swift hunter.

cloistered cleric gives you the powerful Travel devotion (Which allows you to move as a swift action, meaning you apply skirmish and you can full attack) and turn undead uses to fuel it (I would take travel Devotion, Undeath domain (extra turning feat for free) and Knowledge devotion as the domains)

So... Feats
1 Point blank shot
1 Darkstalker
1 Precise Shot
1
3
6 Improved skirmish
6 - Swift Hunter (scout feat)
9 Woodland Archer

theres 2 blanks, Cuz I just didn't come up with anythign specific. But (Able Learner) is a good pick.


if you cant multiclass that much for w/e reason, you can do Scout 4/Ranger 6 with the same setup, but you get (greater manyshot) which allows you to fire as a std action a manyshot that applies precision dmg... but its separate roll per attack.

If you have Access to dragon mag compendium, get dead eye... +Dex to rng dmg is yummy.


I hope I could help.

I would also suggest getting the dungeon crawler or similar ACF for the scout (Dungeonscape, if you DM allows it), it trades the movement speed bonus for a climb speed. pretty nifty IMHO.


In terms of skills, you got about 7+ per lvl + Int (scout gives +8, ranger +6, CC +6, you got 5 lvls of each number... simple math)

with a Int of 15 you get 9 skil points, more than enough... specially if you invested in able learner.

Also, remember that scouts get disable device as a class skill per errata, but not open lock, it still isn't a bad idea (again especially if you got able learner) to put a few points in it. you can take 20 on the roll, so you dont need THAT much.





Other alternatives included Factotum from Dungeonscape, its pretty OP, especially with font of inspiration. But you wanted wild themed and an appropriately named class, so I gave you just that.

[Shadowdagger213]

I always appreciate responses from this forum. And I apologize, but I am looking for a single class Scout build. We don't have access to a lot of books (Darkstalker?) and I want more of the skill side thanthe damage side. XP is gained just as much from alternate solutions as from killing monsters. And skirmish damage can only apply to one attack IIRC, even if yoou can move as a swift action. Was thinking more like getting as much damage as possibe on the first attack, then raining shots in the next round, hide, rinse, repeat.

[Flickerdart]

Crossbows are only useful for two things - Great Crossbow because it has good range and base damage, and dual-wielding for loads of ranged attacks. If you're not doing either one of these, then go for a bow or you will probably not be very good at living.


And skirmish damage can only apply to one attack IIRC, even if yoou can move as a swift action.
Not the case.



Was thinking more like getting as much damage as possibe on the first attack, then raining shots in the next round, hide, rinse, repeat.
Single-shot archery is basically impossible unless you're willing to dredge up some serious cheese.

[D4rkh0rus]

I always appreciate responses from this forum. And I apologize, but I am looking for a single class Scout build. We don't have access to a lot of books (Darkstalker?)

Darkstalker is a feat that allows a character to not get auto detected by common means (blindsense, scent, etc) its from Lords of Madness


and I want more of the skill side than the damage side. XP is gained just as much from alternate solutions as from killing monsters.

Yes, but after a few campaigns, you realize that making that guy who could get a +20 on every skill at lvl 4 doesnt really matter that much when you're doing absolutely nothing in combat. I like to have a mix of both... cuz otherwise 80% of the time, im just sitting there, throwing rocks at the wall cuz its the only thing I can hit. and 80% in a social focused campaign... one encounter can last hours.


And skirmish damage can only apply to one attack IIRC, even if yoou can move as a swift action. Was thinking more like getting as much damage as possibe on the first attack, then raining shots in the next round, hide, rinse, repeat.

Skirmish is precision dmg, and said precision damage applyes to every attack you make, as long as by the time you make said attack you meet the prequisites for the precision dmg (this mainly boggles sneak attack. for skirmish you move once and thats it).
Unless your DM is enforcing that rule. in which case shame on him, go pick on the casters not the already underpowered martial classes.

On a swift action move, and full attack you would get 3 attacks, 7/7/0 + any and all modifiers to your attack (Dex, items, etc)

Each of these applies Skirmish, which is 3d6 / 2AC at lvl 10, + 2d6/2AC for improved skirmish, meaning you get 3 attacks that each apply 5d6 skirmish dmg.
Mind you, this is using a bow.

the main reason you would want to go ranger and swift hunter, would be to get a nifty specific that swifthunter provides... you can skirmish favoured enemies even if they're immune to precision dmg.

so choose undead or oozes or w/e creature type you believe you'll be facing thats naturally immune to precision dmg, and tada.

[Shadowdagger213]

How about a Rogue/Order of the Bow Initiate Sniper? (Still with a shortbow to save on feats).

Hide and wait for the shot, flat foot foe :smallbiggrin:, 1d6+2+4d6+2d8 on the first shot. Then we have to get creative on how to get more of them before melee. And I can come up with a few ways to get S/A up close! :haley:

[Shadowdagger213]

Am I worrying too much about the setting and not enough about the surviving? It's outside in the woods, wouldn't Spot, Search, Survival and Listen be more important than lots of damage and feats?

I'm for mayhem just as much as the next guy, but I do want to play for more than one encounter! :smallconfused:

[PurpleSocks]

Order of the Bow Initiate is a trap as it prevents you from making full attacks. It's a terrible prestige that you most certainly shouldn't take, there have been several threads in this forum going into detail on why its such a terrible prestige so I won't go into it here.

I wouldn't worry about the lack of skill points from swift hunter, 4+int from ranger gives you enough to cover spot/listen/movesilent/hide and if your really worried talk to your stepson about him merging them into perception & stealth like it is in pathfinder.

At level 10 magic items will provide you so much utility that you will never make a survival check unless your transplanted to the elemental plane of fire. Simply buy a magic bedroll, some everlasting rations & waterskin, and your set to blow the rest of your WBL on Hanks energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

Crossbows are only good if your using crossbow sniper, otherwise they simply cost too many feats to effectively use and just grab a shortbow.

Edit: Typo

[Xerlith]

Play a Duskblade, ask your DM to burn a feat to be able to channel a spell through a ranged attack. Stack Shocking Grasp metamagic.

Decisive Strike Monk 2 can be a good dip if you can make it work with the bow.

Also, bow >>> crossbow. Really.

[D4rkh0rus]

Am I worrying too much about the setting and not enough about the surviving? It's outside in the woods, wouldn't Spot, Search, Survival and Listen be more important than lots of damage and feats?

I'm for mayhem just as much as the next guy, but I do want to play for more than one encounter! :smallconfused:

First off, a swift Hunter gives you effectively 9 skill points per lvl.

Thats 13 ranks in Spot, Search, Survival, Listen, Disable device, Hide, Move Silently and Handle animal.

In terms of skills. If you're not gonna be living in cities, then throw the social skills out the window, let the big stupid fighter intimidate stuff, and the sorcerer be the party face. You're the survivalist, not the skill monkey.



Either way. If you WANT to survive you need these 2 things.

1 -> Collar of umbral Metamorphosis, continuous (Tome of Magic). 22k GP it gives you hide in plain sight (shadows) at will.

2 -> Darkstalker Feat (Lords of Madness). It doesnt matter if you hide and move silently is +9001. If you dont have this feat, then anything with blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, sonic radar, and SCENT will know were you are WITHOUT having to roll anything.

while the first set of abilities may not show up frequently at lvl 10... im 100... no 2000% sure that in a NATURAL setting, you WILL face a ton of animals with SCENT.
They WILL know you're there, behind them, ready to stabby stabby them.

But yea. If you cant access Darkstalker. Give up on being stealthy. If you were in a city it could be a little better... but otherwise. natural habitat without darkstalker... not gonna work.


On a side note, 5 ranger 5 scout. If you can convince your DM to waive the Skirmish Errata, you can be a REAL mongol archer. You move with your mount and activate skirmish with a composite longbow.

1d8 + Skirmish + str mod.

Of course, you need to make your DM allow it. It still stays tier 4, so its nothing game breaking. you start first lvl in scout for the extra skil points, and spend 4 on ride. thats enough. with your dex, a saddle and maybe an item... you got enuf.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, there are other ways to be undetectable from scent, and there is the Hide from Animals spell in particular.

Anyway, yes, listen/spotl are important, they give you surprise rounds and more distance between you and your enemies when combat starts. Also, scout 10 gets blindsense, I believe (might be 11th). However, you need to be within 30ft to use skirmish.

Anyway, shortbow is better for scouts than crossbows, for two reasons: reload as part of the attack action (move, load arrow + fire as opposed to load bolt THEN fire), and iterative attacks (not so useful for scouts). Str to damage as well. There are crossbow feats in those books that can make it viable, but youre spending feats to do it when you can put those feats elsewhere.

Swift Hunter is objectively better, but I personally understand wanting to go full scout. The biggest problem is that you only get skirmish damage once per round, only within 30ft, and only against enemies vulnerable to it (no undead).

Elf and scout go together very well. All of the elf's racial traits are helpful for scouts (except teh Con penalty, duh). Wilderness Rogue too.

Scout is my favorite base class, but I admit that wilderness rogue is better in many ways, especially if you are allowed to deal sneak attack damage at range.

[Shadowdagger213]

Seharvepernfan you have stated a few points that I had thought about first (Elf, full Scout, flavor and such) and I read in a previous post that once Skirmish is activated, ALL attacks that round add damage after you move that first 10 feet.

Crossbow Sniper would let a Wilderness Rogue S/A out to 60ft, and if we're worried about a Crossbow Specialist taking up too many feats, the Scout bonus feats offer most of the basic ones, and nothing in the description of a Crossbow sniper says that I can't use a Heavy Repeater.

Level 10, 2 attacks/rnd, 5 shots/clip, good for 2 rounds, hide/reload for one, repeat.

Isn't there a feat or skill trick or something that lets a non Ranger get an animal companion?

Still, I was trying to go the human route for the extra feat...

But as an Elf, I get the Longbow, Improved Weapon Familiarity gets me the Courtblade (Low strength, highest damage possible and finesse-able) full Scout can offer Track as a feat, and to the previous poster, with Order of the Bow... I usually don't worry about raining down shots every round. I'm not a DPS/DP"R" kind of player.

Activate Skirmish, sneak out of cover 10' and take aim, Ranged Precision + Skirmish + whatever magic on bow for one surprise shot... whatever I hit probably wouldn't survive the next round. Especially if I could duck back under cover (Woodland Sniper...?)

Elf Scout sounds good now, OBI vs Crossbow Sniper vs "Smart Gameplay" is my issue now...:vaarsuvius:

[Shadowdagger213]

Okay, here's the update...

Right now the idea is a Wilderness Rogue Variant Whisper Gnome Rogue...

Stats as follows:

(-2)STR 11
(+2)DEX 17
(+2)CON 15
INT 15
WIS 15
(-2)CHA 14

Totals:

STR 9
DEX 19
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 15
CHA 12

Ranged primary (obviously), 2WF melee (Quickrazors), lots of skill tricks to activate flat feet..

I have never played a small character before...

This is moving to a new thread.... "Whisper in the Wilderness"

(BTW, is there any way to end a thread here? Or do they just get deleted by the mediators?)

[Evandar]

I believe they just get deleted after a period of inactivity.

Also solid choice on the small character. I am going to roll a halfling barbarian one day, just 'cause.

[TuggyNE]

(BTW, is there any way to end a thread here? Or do they just get deleted by the mediators?)

You just let it sit there and implicitly hit the thread necro limit. Old threads hang around even after they're over, for future reference.

[Captnq]

Meet the BFG (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16040887&postcount=12).

Check out my Sig for many useful things. Just key word search "Crossbow".