Permadeath without high-level spells.

[bekeleven]

I am trying to build a character that can kill a person and have that person reasonably unable to come back. For our purposes, assume that my goal is immunity to true resurrection, and that I have a way around divination magic. His class is factotum.

Ideas:


Trap The Soul: If the gem's location can't be divined, then this is pretty hard to get around - although maybe not impossible. 1/Day Slotted item costs 43200 GP.
Sphere of Annihilation: A bit expensive, but works as well as I need.
Constitution Drain: True Resurrection: "Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health." I read this as healing ability damage, but not ability drain. Since you can't fix ability drain on a corpse, a character con-drained to 0 can't be resurrected (there is one workaround but I can live with that). The issue is that the SRD has essentially no way for a non-monster to deal constitution drain without constitution damage, and if their (drain+damage) hits their con score they die, so you enter into a ridiculous race where you are healing their con damage faster than they take drain or else they die in a resurrectable state.
Level drain: Similar to above. True res can't bring back a level 0 character. However, the workaround for this one is ever more obscure. Any ideas how a PC can deal heaps and heaps of level drain?

[mabriss lethe]

Thinaun weapons will work to prevent resurrection, but they're a bit pricey.

There's a Vile feat in Elder Evils called Harvester of Souls. You need a BAB of at least 11. You gain some bonuses when you coup de grace someone and as a side benefit, they can only be revived by a wish or miracle spell.

[bekeleven]

Thinaun weapons will work to prevent resurrection, but they're a bit pricey.

There's a Vile feat in Elder Evils called Harvester of Souls. You need a BAB of at least 11. You gain some bonuses when you coup de grace someone and as a side benefit, they can only be revived by a wish or miracle spell.

Thiaun weapons only hold one soul at a time, so I can see how that would be pricey.

The feat sounds perfect for my chameleon dip...

[Morcleon]

Constitution Drain: True Resurrection: "Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health." I read this as healing ability damage, but not ability drain. Since you can't fix ability drain on a corpse, a character con-drained to 0 can't be resurrected (there is one workaround but I can live with that). The issue is that the SRD has essentially no way for a non-monster to deal constitution drain without constitution damage, and if their (drain+damage) hits their con score they die, so you enter into a ridiculous race where you are healing their con damage faster than they take drain or else they die in a resurrectable state.
Level drain: Similar to above. True res can't bring back a level 0 character. However, the workaround for this one is ever more obscure. Any ideas how a PC can deal heaps and heaps of level drain?


These two are arguably fixed by True Resurrection. As "vigor and health" is not a defined game term, it would be more arguable to say that the target is completely healed. Besides, if a lower level spell (greater restoration, for example) can heal ability drain, why can't a higher level spell (true resurrection).

Same goes for level drain. You can't have a level 0 character. If you lose levels, you lose HD. Once you get to 1 HD, the next negative level kills you outright without reducing you to 0 HD.

The most surefire way is to get a barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) to eat the corpse, then try to resurrect them yourself. If they are resurrected, kill them again and have the barghest eat the corpse again. Repeat until you can't resurrect them, thus preventing their resurrection by mortal magic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Burning the corpse and scattering the ashes ought to stop anything short oftrue resurrection, which probably results in the best cost-effectiveness ratio.

[Gemini476]

With Trap the Soul, remember to use the soul as a material component to destroy it.

You might need to get some evil wizard or demon to do it for you, though. It's worth some XP, at least, so you should find a buyer.

[angry_bear]

Thinaun weapon, sell the trapped soul to an evil outsider, buy yourself something shiny afterward.

[Setra]

Level drain: Similar to above. True res can't bring back a level 0 character. However, the workaround for this one is ever more obscure. Any ideas how a PC can deal heaps and heaps of level drain?
[/LIST]
Some sort of Totemist with a level in Soul Eater? Each touch deals 1 negative level, and a Totemist can get a lot of natural attacks per round.

[Mnemnosyne]

Anything that can capture the soul, plus any item creation feat, and using the soul to cover some of the xp cost in item creation results in the soul being destroyed forever and therefore being impossible to resurrect.

It's actually pretty easy to permanently kill someone if you're properly prepared. Use it for scribe scroll or some other cheap item creation. The biggest expense is actually capturing the soul.

[Spore]

Is the actual method described and failed in Diablo lore actually doable in D&D?

I mean capturing the soul in a soul gem and permanently destroying the entity within by crushing said gem.

[Morcleon]

Is the actual method described and failed in Diablo lore actually doable in D&D?

I mean capturing the soul in a soul gem and permanently destroying the entity within by crushing said gem.

Nope. Destroying the soul gem releases the soul in D&D.

[Slipperychicken]

Thinaun weapon, sell the trapped soul to an evil outsider, buy yourself something shiny afterward.

Nah, just burn it so it counts as the XP cost for a scroll of Rope Trick.

Or use it as a component to cast Prestidigitation and clean his blood of your weapon and clothes

[Crake]

I vote ritual sacrifice for dark craft xp, then use that dark craft xp to make yourself a nice pair of earrings that ever so quietly emit the screams of agony of the soul you used to create them. Gives you a friendly reminder of what you're fighting for... you know, the pain and suffering of all those around you? right? that's what we're fighting for here, right guys?

Then the only way to recover the soul is to destroy whatever item you made. This kind of stuff is rather dubious though, because a miracle could realistically achieve anything the DM wanted it to.

[Vincent Dragon]

I know Necrotic Termination is a high-level spell, but even Miracle or Wish can't bring back someone killed by it.

[schoklat]

The most reliable way is actually to trap the target on a highly time-accelerated (demi)-plane to die of old age. Depending on what you can get your hands on, this might laeve folks on the material plane possibly only days to hours for the rescue.

My favourite combination is with Microcosm and a nice little golem or two, to keep the body alive, but that is probably out of the Factotum's league.
A much more simpler version would be to use Baleful Polymorph, and some setup so the secondary Will save fails.

[Zanos]

Why kill them?

You could create a fast-time demiplane with an unreasonably fast time-trait. That way anyone you plane shift there is gone for millions of years, even if they plane shift out next round.

Contingent any-spell-that-makes-you-immune-to-planar-effects can ruin that though.

If we aren't being ridiculous, soul bind is a 9th level spell that has a focus instead of a material component, so it's reusable. It has to be cast within 1round/level of their death and doesn't kill anything by itself, but you won't be spending thousands of GP and gem material components.

[bekeleven]

Why kill them?Because the character is a killer for hire?

If I become ineligible for vile feats I'll grab a custom soul bind item, though.

[schoklat]

You could create a fast-time demiplane with an unreasonably fast time-trait. That way anyone you plane shift there is gone for millions of years, even if they plane shift out next round.

That's actually slow-time-demiplane.
And creating demiplanes is high-level spell stuff, which is kinda out of reach for Factotums. So you either have one around anyway, or you don't... And a millions-years-to-round demiplane sounds kinda unlikely to be DM-given.


Because the character is a killer for hire?

Properly prepared high calibre enemies "resurrect" instantly... Clone, Contigencies, divine shenanigans, classic lich-dom, etc.
Better trap him without such backups even triggering.

[Phelix-Mu]

Because the character is a killer for hire?

Ah, but use the souls for something awesome! Destroying them seems so, eh, mundane compared to the truly ridiculous (and theoretical) limits of the 3.5 ruleset.

I'd want trap the soul of mine enemy, transplant his mind into an ageless container, make him watch as I used his soul to create an item of evil, and then help him come to terms with him using said item to kill all his loved ones.

Well, I guess that is a little less practical than the classic hired gun, but you get my point. If you are going to be thorough, go for some flair while you are at it.:smallsmile:

[bekeleven]

Many of these plans are... less than easy when playing a factotum.

[Phelix-Mu]

Many of these plans are... less than easy when playing a factotum.

Gate someone and have them help? Mindrape someone with the needed skills? Outsource? I guess if you personally want to get your hands dirty, you might need to do some body swapping/fusion to really make things silly, but it's all relative to the optimization level and the desired effect.

I often see flesh to stone/stone to mud/purify food & drink mentioned in these lists. I guess it works on the premise that, since the person wasn't killed, they are ineligible for being raised or resurrected. Not sure if the RAW supports this still, but it has been a thing for several editions now.