[M&M 3rd] Environment Control - why so expensive?

[Re'ozul]

Since I have no clue how to register for atomicthinktank, I'll post this here.

One of the character's I'm making has a massive dynamic array all about CONTROL and for fluff I included Environment control.

What I found however, was that the power is in my eyes one of if not the most overpriced one in the entire book.
If you want access to all effects at their strongest and be able to mix and match them its 11/rank.
Usually that previous sentence would make me go "well, duh, you want everything at all combinations", but mechanically environment control is so very weak in its parts:

Visibility: -2 or -5 to perception
While impeding, its usually not a big deal aside from sneaking around.

Light: counters natural darkness (I'm not sure wether this works for darkness powers)
Its circumstantially useful if you want to find something/someone.

Impede movement: half/quarter speed no-save
This is the one really good one and the only one I have found to be used relatively often for non-fluff purposes.

Heat/Cold: fort saves 1/10 minutes or 1/minute
This can work to flush people out of a building if you can affect an area that is within your range without having to sense it.

Of course there is the possibility that I am simply seeing this completely wrong. A lot of my confusion also comes from the description of the use of the sleective modifier which by sentence structure seems to be an aletrnative to buying more abilities.

Indeed the DM of the game I made this for allowed me a 3/rank version (2/rank + selective) to have any ONE effect in any part of my area (cold in one half, heat in the other for example)

So am I just not getting the value of this power, am I overemphazising getting more ranks than one or am I making some kind of mistake in my assumptions?

[The_Snark]

If you only have 1 or 2 ranks, it's affordable, but I suppose some of those effects aren't particularly useful with an area that small. If you want a versatile large-scale ability like weather control - and don't want to have to define all the possible permutations in advance as Alternate Effects - then the pricing is somewhat awkward, yes. (Large-area environmental effects can be pretty powerful - blanketing a city in killing heat, for instance - but as you say, most of these effects are pretty weak.)

You could go with a Variable power; most GMs I've played with are wary of allowing that, but if you define it as Weather Control or something then it has pretty strict limits. That gives you the option to customize your environment control - with 10-15 points you can blanket a wide area in heat, or

If you're not satisfied with that either... I guess I might suggest some sort of custom extra for Environment, allowing you to buy the power at a certain amount (say 8 ranks at 4 points/rank, not counting modifiers) and then use it to inflict any combination of effects which could fit within that cost (so you could halve speed, reduce visibility by -2 and inflict extreme cold, or blanket the area in extreme heat and bright light). Not sure exactly how I would price it, and it might still end up being expensive if you want to affect a large area, but not 11 points/rank expensive.

Lastly... you mentioned this was part of a dynamic array? You could just buy all the different functions as dynamic Alternate Effects, and apply the Linked modifier (with the +1 to make it optional). That'll cost you something like 10 points, which is not trivial but not awful either.

Edit - just looked it up, and apparently 3e no longer has the "Linked but optional" modifier. I don't think there's any particular reason you shouldn't bring it back from 2e, though. There's also a rule against linking Alternate Effects, but if they're all dynamic then that can probably be waived too.

[Re'ozul]

If you're not satisfied with that either... I guess I might suggest some sort of custom extra for Environment, allowing you to buy the power at a certain amount (say 8 ranks at 4 points/rank, not counting modifiers) and then use it to inflict any combination of effects which could fit within that cost (so you could halve speed, reduce visibility by -2 and inflict extreme cold, or blanket the area in extreme heat and bright light). Not sure exactly how I would price it, and it might still end up being expensive if you want to affect a large area, but not 11 points/rank expensive.

I had that idea as well and so far its among the most workable that I've found. Not too cheap, not too expensive.

The alternates for variable is a good idea, but it has the added problem (that I hadn't mentioned before) that I am effectively giving most of my dynamic powers 'Subtle II' so making all those effects dynamic alternates becomes doubly expensive.

[The_Snark]

I had that idea as well and so far its among the most workable that I've found. Not too cheap, not too expensive.

The alternates for variable is a good idea, but it has the added problem (that I hadn't mentioned before) that I am effectively giving most of my dynamic powers 'Subtle II' so making all those effects dynamic alternates becomes doubly expensive.

Mmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Subtle modifier be added to the cost of the power, not the actual cost of the alternate effect (1-2 points)? I'm having a hard time articulating this clearly, so let me use an example:

Flight 12 (Dynamic, Subtle 2) [27 points]
-AE: Enhanced Strength 12 (Subtle 2) [1 point]
-AE: Blast 12 (Subtle 2) [1 point]
-AE: Move Object 12 (Dynamic, Subtle 2) [2 points]

You do not have to pay an extra 2 points for each Subtle alternate effect. You just need to include 2 points in the budget when designing each setting.

I guess that with a dynamic array, it would still be irritating to have to include all the Subtle modifiers in your point budget whenever you want to combine multiple Environment effects, but if your array's base value is large enough it shouldn't be impossible.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Still not as bad as communication. (I can spend 16 points to get a cellphone! What a bargain!)

The main issue with the power is that... well, it seems like more of an NPC power-- it's not useful for beating people up, but its good for messing with people across the entire city. (Or state. Or hemisphere. Or planet.) If I wanted to use it in a PC build, I'd probably avoid the mix-and-match thing, grab a feature for "dramatic weather" and just use more direct weather powers to mess with my enemies.

Also, The_Snark is right about how Subtle works with alternate effects.

[Re'ozul]

Still not as bad as communication. (I can spend 16 points to get a cellphone! What a bargain!)

The main issue with the power is that... well, it seems like more of an NPC power-- it's not useful for beating people up, but its good for messing with people across the entire city. (Or state. Or hemisphere. Or planet.) If I wanted to use it in a PC build, I'd probably avoid the mix-and-match thing, grab a feature for "dramatic weather" and just use more direct weather powers to mess with my enemies.

Also, The_Snark is right about how Subtle works with alternate effects.

To be fair, Communication Radio possibly lets you hack into WLAN systems with your mind if you have a good enough skill check, but yeah communication is overpriced as well which is why I only ever used it for a technopath for the afforementioned hacking aspect.

I am aware that subtle works like that, but it still means that if I want all effects in some areas of my range I'd have an extra 8 points to budget. Its not much, but when your entire array reserve is onyl 40 thats a lot.

[Beleriphon]

Still not as bad as communication. (I can spend 16 points to get a cellphone! What a bargain!)

Well you have a cell phone that will work anywhere, anytime no matter what regardless of cell signal. An actual cell phone is only 1 equipment point. As noted by Re'ozul Communication does more than just communicate with people at range it allows you to broadcast and receive communications in your chosen medium. So you could pick up and hack that CIA coded radio chatter.



The main issue with the power is that... well, it seems like more of an NPC power-- it's not useful for beating people up, but its good for messing with people across the entire city. (Or state. Or hemisphere. Or planet.) If I wanted to use it in a PC build, I'd probably avoid the mix-and-match thing, grab a feature for "dramatic weather" and just use more direct weather powers to mess with my enemies.

I found that environment control is useful when used as a base of a series of AEs for a weather controller. Since it doesn't do direct damage the effect is useful for rationalizing alternate effects like indirect ranged damage (lightning bolts), area damage (hail stones), or even flight.

[Lord Raziere]

yea, and I'm kind of suspicious about constructs needing a full 30 points to be immune to all fortitude effects, when for 10 points you can get immunity (life support), which basically covers everything a construct is already immune to.

[Beleriphon]

yea, and I'm kind of suspicious about constructs needing a full 30 points to be immune to all fortitude effects, when for 10 points you can get immunity (life support), which basically covers everything a construct is already immune to.

It also covers things that target fortitude normally, or effects that have had their resistance changed. In theory the lack of a intellect and stamina should help balance out the costs.

[The_Snark]

It also covers things that target fortitude normally, or effects that have had their resistance changed. In theory the lack of a intellect and stamina should help balance out the costs.

If you're playing a construct character then you'll want an Intellect score anyway, but yeah, the 10 points you get from having Stamina N/A, and the points you save by not needing to improve your Fortitude, go a fair way towards making up for that 30-point cost.

Although it's possible you'll be hit by effects with the Affects Objects extra, such as the classic Disintegrate power - that's never been quite clear to me. On the one hand there's no reason for you to be immune to a disintegration ray that affects objects and people alike, but on the other hand you did buy an expensive Immunity to Fortitude effects, not Immune to Effects That Can't Hurt Objects.

[Beleriphon]

Although it's possible you'll be hit by effects with the Affects Objects extra, such as the classic Disintegrate power - that's never been quite clear to me. On the one hand there's no reason for you to be immune to a disintegration ray that affects objects and people alike, but on the other hand you did buy an expensive Immunity to Fortitude effects, not Immune to Effects That Can't Hurt Objects.

Unless the effect has Affects Objects it never affects constructs with no Stamina score. As it stands though for a construct character in the vein of The Vision or warforged I'd given them the Stamina score and use immunities for what else is needed.

For a construct Borg hive ( in 2E min you) I did a bodiless mind that could control drones from light years away. It was insubstantial, and only had mind control limited to drones, but it could detect them at near galactic levels and could control up to 100,000 directly at a time. Oh, and it shared the senses of everything it mind controlled. So I guess saving the Strength, Dexterity and Constitution worked out okay cost wise there.

[Lord Raziere]

It also covers things that target fortitude normally, or effects that have had their resistance changed. In theory the lack of a intellect and stamina should help balance out the costs.

I dunno, I kind of want my robot hero to be intelligent. and able to shrug off damage. I mean sure, expensive immunity sounds nice, but then again I also want my rocket feet, laser guns and a bunch of other nice things robot heroes should have, y'know?