Pathfinder Character Build Help Request - Feral Half Orc

[Dragon-Rider]

Greetings Giant in the Playground Forum Members. I've been reading the comic since strip for a very long time but only recently discovered the wealth of gaming knowledge on this site.

I was wondering if you all could help me with a Pathfinder character concept I came up with. I've been playing D&D 3.5 for years but am very new to Pathfinder. I think it would be a lot of fun to play a Feral Half-Orc character that uses only natural weapons. I know that I'll face some major challenges in running this character and was hoping I could get your help to improve it enough so the character can hold his own in the party. I will greatly appreciate any tips and advice you give me.

Thank you in advance,
~Dragon-Rider


Here are the problems I can already envision for this character:
1) Requires a LOT of feats.
2) Enchanting Natural Weapons requires either an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a Permanent Greater Magic Fang Spell. The Amulet is insanely expensive and the spell is vulnerable to Dispal Magic...
3) The base damage of natural weapons is low, even with the Improved Natural Attack feats. Getting through high DR is going to be an issue.
4) Vulnerable to the special attacks/defenses of certain creatures that trigger on touch.

What my DM Allows:
Core Races only. Classes from Core and Advanced Player's Guide (but Summoners are not allowed).
Feats, Traits, Spells, and Equipment from the following books:
Core, Advanced Player's Guide, Advanced Race Guide, Bestiary, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat.
*My DM may allow some feats and traits from other sources on a case by case basis.

My Character Plan:
Race: Half-Orc
Alternate Racial Trait: Toothy
Trait 1: Deft Dodger
Trait 2: Indomitable Faith
Favored Class: Fighter

Stats: (20 point buy)
STR: 19 (17 + 2 Racial Bonus)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 14
CHA: 7

Level 1 - Barbarian - Feat: Power Attack
Level 2 - Ranger
Level 3 - Ranger - Combat Style Feat: Rending Claws, Feat: Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast)
Level 4 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feat: Weapon Focus Claw, +1 STR
Level 5 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feats: Scent, Multiattack
Level 6 - Fighter (Savage Warrior)
Level 7 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feats: Rending Fury, Eldritch Claws
Level 8 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - +1 STR
Level 9 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feats: Improved Rending Fury, Weapon Specialization Claws
Level 10 - Fighter (Savage Warrior)
Level 11 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feats: Weapon Focus Bite, Weapon Specialization Bite
Level 12 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) +1 STR
Level 13 - Fighter (Savage Warrior) - Feats: Greater Rending Fury, Improved Natural Attack Claws

I doubt the campaign will last any longer than level 13.

Stat Thoughts:
I'm tempted to go 10 INT, 11 WIS, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I'd love to be able to max out both Perception and Survival, but I'm concerned about the character's low Will Saves. He'll be 3 levels (2 if I don't take Barbarian) behind pure-class Warrior types in the Will save progression due to the multiclass levels he'll be taking. The Indomitable Faith Trait helps to offset this, but the +2 bonus from a 14 WIS score will make spells and effects that require Will saves slightly less scary. On the other hand, if I'm smart/lucky with using it, Rage can give him a +2 bonus to Will saves too. I could keep the 14 Wisdom and take the +1 skill point favored class bonus, but the +1 HP favored class bonus seems necessary for a front line Warrior.

Class Thoughts:
I need the 2 levels of Ranger in order to qualify for the Aspect of the Beast feat which grants claw attacks. The 1 level of Barbarian isn't necessarily needed, but it does mesh well for role playing. Rage would give him a way of increasing his damage output somewhat, even if he only gets 6 rounds of it per day. Plus the increased movement and extra Hit Points are nice to have. The Savage Warrior Fighter variant seems ideal for this character.

Feat Thoughts:
I really like the Scent feat for role playing reasons. I know there are better feats out there, but I think it fits the character concept really well. Feats like Lunge and the Blind Fight feats are also appealing, but I don't know how to fit them in.

[Baroncognito]

So far, you don't really have any cause to take Multiattack, all three of your attacks are primary attacks.

If you take Improved Unarmed Strike then you can claw and bite as secondary attacks and then you'd want Multiattack.

Edit: I'm also unexcited by Rending Claws. Two feats for an extra 3.5 damage? At least with the Two Weapon Rend feat it's 1d10 + 1.5 times strength modifier.

[JHShadon]

If you go full barbarian you could get this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su) rage power to get a better claw attack while raging and if you pick up the other (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-su) two (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su) beast totem rage powers you can get a natural armour bonus and the ability to make a full attack at the end of a charge, if you can come up with a good fluff reason you could also get a Gore attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) with a rage power.

[grarrrg]

If you go full barbarian you could get this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su) rage power to get a better claw attack while raging and if you pick up the other (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-su) two (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su) beast totem rage powers you can get a natural armour bonus and the ability to make a full attack at the end of a charge, if you can come up with a good fluff reason you could also get a Gore attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) with a rage power.


But do note that you cannot take more than one "Totem" line of Rage powers. So Beast OR Fiend.
Barbarian 10 for Claws+Pounce is very nice.
Ranger 2 + Barbarian 2 for Claws+Gore is also nice.


As a way to increase your damage, get a friendly caster to drop Enlarge Person on you every once in a while. +2 STR and a die size bump on all your attacks is pretty good.
There's also the option to be your own caster, but that comes with a hit to Bab, and the "armor issue" if the casting class is Arcane (Dragon Disciple comes to mind).

[Baroncognito]

I went feral halfling, but I only want Enlarge Person cast on my medium enemies. Risky Striker is kind of awesome.

[Dragon-Rider]

@Baroncognito:

Really?!? I didn't realize that you could have more than 1 primary natural attack type. I just assumed I had to choose 1 to be primary and the other to be secondary. Very cool.

I love your idea of taking Improved Unarmed Strike. Would I get the full BAB progression with that feat and be able to make iterative unarmed attacks when the character's BAB gets high enough? Even if it didn't, it would still be a better replacement to the Rending Claws feat chain. I'd also have some feats to spare for Lunge or even Imrproved and Greater Grapple.

I would love to see your Feral Halfling build if you are willing to post it.

@JHShadon:

Thank you for bringing up those Totem Rage powers. Clearly, I did not look at the Barbarian class closely enough when I was planning out this character. I'll definitely check those out.

@grarrrg:

Thank you for the clarification on the Totem Rage Powers. The Enlarge Person suggestion is a good one, and Dragon Disciple could be interesting too...

@Everyone:
With all of your suggestions, I find my vision for this character changing to become more and more like Ookla from the Thundarr the Barbarian cartoon...

I like the idea of piling on as many natural attacks as possible, so I was leaning towards Grarrrg's idea of Ranger 2/Barbarian 2 to get the Gore attack from the Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power. However, JHShadon's suggestion of the Animal Totem Rage Power chain is very appealing because it grants the pounce ability at level 10. Are there any other ways of getting the pounce ability?

Thank you all so much for your suggestions so far.
~Dragon-Rider

[grarrrg]

I love your idea of taking Improved Unarmed Strike. Would I get the full BAB progression with that feat and be able to make iterative unarmed attacks when the character's BAB gets high enough?

Unarmed would get to use your Iteratives.

Quick rundown of Natural Attacks:
If an attack is Primary, it uses your full Bab.
Secondaries use Bab -5
If you use a "manufactured" weapon (Unarmed _is_ considered manufactured), then ALL of your Naturals are considered Secondaries, and get the -5 penalty.
Multiattack reduces the 'Secondary' Penalty to just Bab -2.

The Multiattack feat requires you have 3 Natural Attacks. This means they must be -permanent- Natural attacks, so you would almost have to go the 'Ranger 2' route for permanent Claws. (unless you can work something out with your DM)


Are there any other ways of getting the pounce ability?

There are, but they all come online around level 10-ish, and as far as your build goes, Barbarian is probably the best option.
Next best would probably be Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) Alchemist (with or without Feral Mutagen) gets Pounce while using his Mutagen (level 10), and the Mutagen is also providing a STR boost, and Enlarge Person is on the Alchemist list.
Main downside is the 3/4 Bab.

[Bigbeefie]

People always overlook a good druid who focus on pouncing and tag teaming with a good animal companion. The Spirit of the Beast guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WLR6brLr0EA3LbQ6UihsliPiyPYSlLjrNbUShPty4bo/edit?pli=1) is a really good one and actually WORKS. It does produce similar; if not better numbers then a fighter from levels 5-14. You can still be Half-Orc that learned fighting from animals and now turn into those animals to wreck havoc.

[grarrrg]

a good druid who focus on pouncing... produce similar; if not better numbers then a fighter from levels 5-14

A Druid better at fighting than a Fighter?
Old news.
Even with PF

[Baroncognito]

I really wouldn't recommend anything like my build. This was my first real experience playing someone who wasn't a primary spellcaster. I didn't pick up power attack until level 9, and Risky Strikes is very recent too. I went about the first 8 levels doing very little damage and only being helpful by right of having a high AC and latching onto an enemy's face (figuratively).

We've hit level 16 in Rise of the Runelords now, and I did go the Dragon Disciple route. I've found Blindsense to be really handy, and the wings even more so.

What I've found is that I really shouldn't have taken Improved Natural Attack (Claws) because going from 1d3 to 1d4 wasn't really all that necessary (except in preventing me from having to roll 1d6 and divide by two).

The Archaeologist bard archetype is good if you want to get spontaneous casting in light armour. And Celestial Chain Mail is a nice medium armour that counts as light.

[Baroncognito]

It's a long shot, but you could ask your GM if you could go with a 0 point buy instead of a 20 point buy and grab the Half-Dragon template. If you go straight fighter, that shouldn't be terribly unbalancing.

[Dragon-Rider]

@grarrrg:
Thank you for explaining the rules for Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons. That helps a lot.

I read up on that Alchemist varient, and you are right, that is a good combination but I think I want to stick with Barbarian. Is Greater Beast Totem my only option to get Pounce as a Barbarian?

@Bigbeefie:
Thank you for the link. That is a great build, but it is very similar to the last 3.5 character I played before the group switched to Pathfinder. I think I would prefer to go with a Barbarian build this time around.

@Everyone:
I'm now trying to decide if it would be worth it to dip a level of Monk (Martial Arts Master). It would give me +2 to saves, free Improved Unarmed Strike that does 1d6 damage, a bonus feat (I'm thinking Improved Grapple or possibly Catch Off Guard), and a few other minor benefits, at the cost of 1 BAB and a slower Rage Power progression. It also would allow the Eldritch Claws feat to apply to Unarmed Strikes.

Decisions, decisions...

[Dragon-Rider]

Thank you all for helping me improve my Feral Half Orc build. I've posted my new and greatly improved build below. If you have any further suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

New Build:
Race: Half-Orc
Alternate Racial Trait: Toothy
Trait 1: Reactionary
Trait 2: Indomitable Faith
Favored Class: Barbarian
Archetypes: Totem Warrior, Invulnerably Rager
Favored Class Bonus: +1 Round of Rage for each Barbarian level taken

Stats: (20 point buy)
STR: 19 (17 + 2 Racial Bonus)
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 7
WIS: 10
CHA: 7

Level 1 - Barbarian - Feat: Power Attack
Level 2 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
Level 3 - Barbarian - Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 4 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Lesser Fiend Totem
Level 5 - Barbarian - Feat: Raging Vitality
Level 6 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Superstition
Level 7 - Barbarian - Feat: Hammer the Gap
Level 8 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Beast Totem
Level 9 - Barbarian - Feat: Improved Initiative
Level 10 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Greater Beast Totem
Level 11 - Barbarian - Feat: Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
Level 12 - Barbarian - Rage Power: Witch Hunter


I have some questions though. Can you help?
1) Is the above build legal? The Advanced Players Guide states that a Barbarian cannot choose from more than 1 set of Totem powers, which would mean my build is illegal. However, Ultimate Combat states that a Barbarian cannot choose from more than 1 set of Totem powers unless he/she has the Totem Warrior archetype, which would make it legal. Which book is correct? Does Paizo have an official ruling on this somewhere?

2) Can someone help me understand how the Greater Brawler rage power would work with my build? I understand how Two Weapon Fighting works with weapons, but I have no idea how it would work with both unarmed and natural attacks. I *think* it would allow me to take a -2 penalty on all attacks to gain 1 additional unarmed attack at my highest BAB-2. Is that correct? Would the extra unarmed attack get full STR bonus like the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability or would it only apply 1/2 STR bonus like an Off-Hand weapon?

3) Can I choose the order in which I make attacks with this character? Against enemies with high DR, it would seem most beneficial to make all the natural attacks first and then follow up with the unarmed attacks. This would allow the Hammer the Gap apply the biggest damage bonus to the unarmed attacks which add the full STR bonus to damage. If I can't choose the order, what would this character's attack order be?

4) All attacks have low base damage, which will make it a challenge for this build to damage creatures with high DR. Would it be worth it to replace the Hammer the Gap feat with Extra Rage Power: World Serpent Totem, and the Reckless Abandon Rage Power with World Serpent Spirit? Doing so would allow the character to bypass all alignment based DR at the cost of a slightly lower damage potential to enemies without DR. Material based DR would still be problematic though.

Thank you!
~Dragon-Rider

[grarrrg]

1) Is the above build legal? The Advanced Players Guide states... However, Ultimate Combat states ... Does Paizo have an official ruling on this somewhere?

Pick _one (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9qdf)_ group of Totem powers.
Pounce is so awesome, you'll have to lose the Gore.


2) Can someone help me understand how the Greater Brawler rage power would work with my build? I understand how Two Weapon Fighting works with weapons, but I have no idea how it would work with both unarmed and natural attacks. I *think* it would allow me to take a -2 penalty on all attacks to gain 1 additional unarmed attack at my highest BAB-2. Is that correct? Would the extra unarmed attack get full STR bonus like the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability or would it only apply 1/2 STR bonus like an Off-Hand weapon?

The -2 to-hit penalty only applies to Manufactured Attacks, Naturals are treated as normal.
You'd get 1 extra Unarmed Attack at highest Bab, and all Unarmed get -2 Bab.
Monk's are a very "special" exception. Everyone else gets 1/2 STR with Off-Hands.


3) Can I choose the order in which I make attacks with this character?

Somewhat...
Relevant Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Full-Round-Actions)
"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."
It doesn't mention Natural Weapons, presumably they would be considered "highest bonus" attacks.
So assuming a Bab of 10 (and NO Two-Weapon), you'd have:
Unarmed 10
Claw 5 (10 -5)
Claw 5 (10 -5)
Unarmed 5 (iterative)

You'd be able to make the Unarmed 10 and Claws in any order, the Unarmed 5 must be last.

And remember, Secondary Naturals only get 1/2 STR to damage.


4) All attacks have low base damage, which will make it a challenge for this build to damage creatures with high DR. Would it be worth it to replace the Hammer the Gap feat with Extra Rage Power: World Serpent Totem
Given that you are limited to 1 Totem, you would have to abandon Beast Totem to do this.
It is _potentially_ worth it, but you'd probably have to go back to Ranger 2 to gain your Claws (but you'd then qualify for Multiattack again so....)

[Baroncognito]

If Ultimate Equipment is allowed, you get get a Gore attack from Helm of the Mammoth Lords.

[Dragon-Rider]

@grarrrg:
THANK YOU!!! That was exactly the clarification I was looking for regarding the Totem Powers, Greater Brawler and attack order. Much appreciated.

Since I can only take 1 Totem Power set, I'm going to stick with the Beast Totem because I really like Pounce. I'll just have to get creative when fighting enemies with high DR.

@Baroncognito:
Awesome suggestion! That helm is perfect for this character. Do you know if the Gore attack is a Primary Natural Attack or a Secondary Natural Attack? The description just says "the helm provides a gore attack..."

@Everyone:
Looks like it's back to the drawing board for this character. Not only for Rage Powers, but for feats too.

Thinking out loud:
-I think I need to delay Improved Unarmed Strike until the character gets his second iterative attack. Taking that feat any earlier would most likely hurt damage output, since I'd be going from 3 Primary Natural Attacks (Full BAB and STR bonus) to 1 Unarmed attack (full BAB and STR bonus) and 3 Secondary Natural Attacks (BAB-5 and 1/2 STR bonus). I'll have to do the math, but it may work out best to delay taking it until the character gets his third iterative attack.

-I think I'm going to need to take the Eldritch Claws feat. It doesn't seem like we're going to be finding a lot of treasure, and what we do find we have to split amongst a large party. With such a huge price tag on the Amulet of Mighty Fists, I'm not sure when or if this character will be able to afford one. "Natural Attacks" is listed as a prerequisite for this feat. My character will always have 1 Natural Bite Attack, and gains 2 Natural Claw Attacks when he rages. Would those Natural Attacks be sufficient to allow the character to take the feat? If not, would taking a level of Martial Arts master allow the character to take the feat (since a Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered both a manufactured and a natural weapon)?

[Baroncognito]

Awesome suggestion! That helm is perfect for this character. Do you know if the Gore attack is a Primary Natural Attack or a Secondary Natural Attack? The description just says "the helm provides a gore attack..."

This table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Table:-Natural-Attacks-by-Size) explains natural attacks.

Unless otherwise noted (like the bite attack provided by Razortusk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/razortusk)) a gore attack is a primary attack.