[PF] How do DM's deal with greater invisibility?

[Zeromage1]

A ninja in my party just reached level 10, and now has the equivalent of greater invisibility. He gets constant sneak attack damage. My question is, what methods do you use to deal with a character with greater invisibility? How do you get monsters to hit them?

[Forrestfire]

Blindsense, blindsight, and tremorsense to find him, and undead/construct/no discernible anatomy for the sneak attack?

EDIT: Apparently PF has less things immune to sneak attack. Maybe throw the protean subtype on some monsters, or use elementals (or refluffed elementals).

[Sayt]

Tags say PF, so basically only incorporeals, elementals and oozes are sneak attack immune.

Huge Earth Elementals are SA immune and have tremorsense. Don't throw too many at them, or they'll just be frustrated.

Otherwise, see invisibility and invisibility purge are relatively low level spells, potion or wand-able. (Well, not sure if you can make potions of invis purge, but you can definately wand it. Furthermore, they're basic utility spells which casters should have prepped just in case.

[Reinkai]

Invis purge is an emanation, so I see no reason you couldn't have a potion of it.

[Drachasor]

Animated Objects are also immune to sneak attack.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Permanent See Invisibility is only 5000 GP: Well within the means of CR 10 NPCs. Glitterdust offers no saving throw, if they have need for their allies to be able to see the ninja clearly as well.

[ericgrau]

A listen perception check (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility) is your general purpose go-to method so that monsters without special abilities don't just derp. Special abilities add more on top of that.

The short version is ninja attacks thus revealing himself (audibly not visibly), monster makes a DC 20 perception check to find his square then if he passes he attacks with a 50% miss chance, next turn, combat proceeds on. If the monster is the victim of the attack he needs no perception check (but still has a 50% miss chance) unless the ninja moves after attacking or has reach or range. The ninja's stealth check (with a +20 bonus) only applies before the attack.

[Kudaku]

Any percentage of concealment will nullify sneak attack - and potions of Blur are cheap.

Note that this is kind of a mean way to hard counter the ninja, akin to countering archers with Wind Wall - I would use it sparingly. That said, I don't think it's out of line to use Blur etc for opponents who have had a chance to study the party's tactics and prepare accordingly.

[CombatOwl]

A ninja in my party just reached level 10, and now has the equivalent of greater invisibility. He gets constant sneak attack damage. My question is, what methods do you use to deal with a character with greater invisibility? How do you get monsters to hit them?

AOE effects, walls, glitterdust, see invisibility, true seeing, etc.

Ninja 20 is where you have a problem, because that's superior invisibility and much harder to deal with.

[Big Fau]

One line that's constantly overlooked is that you can't Sneak Attack something if you can't reach it's vitals. If he's melee-oriented and no larger than Medium he'd have a hard time with Huge-sized creatures even with Greater Invisibility.

[Psyren]

There are some good suggestions in this thread but ultimately, he's spent the resources to be able to SA reliably, he should be doing it more often than not anyway. Dumb foes should generally be subject, while the smarter ones can prepare since they know they'll be facing invisible attackers.


Any percentage of concealment will nullify sneak attack - and potions of Blur are cheap.

Note that this is kind of a mean way to hard counter the ninja, akin to countering archers with Wind Wall - I would use it sparingly. That said, I don't think it's out of line to use Blur etc for opponents who have had a chance to study the party's tactics and prepare accordingly.

Shadow Strike :smalltongue:

[Kudaku]

Shadow Strike :smalltongue:

Is an excellent mid-high level feat for a rogue or a ninja but the vast majority of rogue and ninja (builds and players) completely ignore it - I really don't know why. Makes for fun encounters when they realize that they probably shouldn't have :smallcool:

[Psyren]

"mid-high level?" You can get it at level 2... :smalltongue:

Every ninja without Darkvision will want it (and even some of the ones that do.)

[Kudaku]

"mid-high level?" You can get it at level 2... :smalltongue:

Every ninja without Darkvision will want it (and even some of the ones that do.)

I wasn't referring to the requirements so much as waiting till the level range when concealment really becomes an issue. At levels 1-5 I think there are better feats available.

[Amridell]

Tags say PF, so basically only incorporeals, elementals and oozes are sneak attack immune.

Huge Earth Elementals are SA immune and have tremorsense. Don't throw too many at them, or they'll just be frustrated.

Otherwise, see invisibility and invisibility purge are relatively low level spells, potion or wand-able. (Well, not sure if you can make potions of invis purge, but you can definately wand it. Furthermore, they're basic utility spells which casters should have prepped just in case.

It could always be a spreadable oil or something.

Otherwise, spell casters can be great to add in as utility to NPC armies. Have them take those spells "in case". Make it useful, just not all the time, that's the real trick. Encourage him to use it to scout, I guess, so he still feels useful?

[Psyren]

I wasn't referring to the requirements so much as waiting till the level range when concealment really becomes an issue. At levels 1-5 I think there are better feats available.

True - though again, if your ninja is lacking darkvision (e.g. Halfling), it's definitely something they'll need early on.

But what I really meant was that, if he starts wheeling out a pile of enemies with blur, expect the Ninja player to either pick this up next level or visit his sensei for some good old-fashioned retraining.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Any percentage of concealment will nullify sneak attack

I once had a player who was frustrated with being unable to sneak attack in the dark, so he had the bright idea to have the Cleric cast Daylight on him when he needed to attack people stealthily.

He, uhh, didn't quite think that one through all the way.

[Kudaku]

I once had a player who was frustrated with being unable to sneak attack in the dark, so he had the bright idea to have the Cleric cast Daylight on him when he needed to attack people stealthily.

He, uhh, didn't quite think that one through all the way.

I had a similar moment when we transitioned our game onto Roll20 and started using the light/darkness mechanics. The otherwise astonishingly stealthy halfling inquisitor who relied completely on Light spells to see was less than thrilled :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Roll20's dynamic lighting is the sex. I need to get my group on there just for fun.

[Kudaku]

I was really apprehensive about using VTT instead of face-to-face gaming but the lighting effect was the first thing that really won me over. Watching the characters move around in a natural logical manner to get insight into what the area looks like and where the hallways lead is absolutely wonderful.

...And it makes it much harder for them to argue that they totally didn't step into the numerous traps on a specific square. Something that should be cherished :smallwink:

I'm planning a Christmas session now that all my players are back in town for the holidays and I'm seriously considering using laptops and tablets to keep the game online while the players are all in the same room just so that I can keep using Roll20 instead of flip mats etc.

[AlltheBooks]

A ninja in my party just reached level 10, and now has the equivalent of greater invisibility. He gets constant sneak attack damage. My question is, what methods do you use to deal with a character with greater invisibility? How do you get monsters to hit them?

Flout, dust, puddles. Use miss chances. Is there a PF version of the magehunter feat chain?

[Drachasor]

I just wanted to add that I don't think you need to do anything special about this ninja. Sure, he's getting sneak attack a lot, but a Ninja/Rogue really needs that just to keep up in damage.

[Psyren]

Flout, dust, puddles. Use miss chances. Is there a PF version of the magehunter feat chain?

As I posted above, there is one feat that allows you to sneak attack through concealment at level 2.


I was really apprehensive about using VTT instead of face-to-face gaming but the lighting effect was the first thing that really won me over. Watching the characters move around in a natural logical manner to get insight into what the area looks like and where the hallways lead is absolutely wonderful.

...And it makes it much harder for them to argue that they totally didn't step into the numerous traps on a specific square. Something that should be cherished :smallwink:

I'm planning a Christmas session now that all my players are back in town for the holidays and I'm seriously considering using laptops and tablets to keep the game online while the players are all in the same room just so that I can keep using Roll20 instead of flip mats etc.

As soon as they get cheaper (and I get a house) I'm getting a Surface Table! :smallbiggrin:

[Techwarrior]

Blind Fight ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blind-fight-combat) makes it much harder to sneak attack a foe in melee.

[AlltheBooks]

As I posted above, there is one feat that allows you to sneak attack through concealment at level 2.

Missed that thanks.
I like that actually. It's pretty rough on a low level rogue when the DM calls the irregular lighting and dust choked air as giving concealment.

[Grayson01]

One line that's constantly overlooked is that you can't Sneak Attack something if you can't reach it's vitals. If he's melee-oriented and no larger than Medium he'd have a hard time with Huge-sized creatures even with Greater Invisibility.

It's over looked cause it's not RAW, and there are plenty of Vitals in the ankles, Calf, Thigh, and other areas.

[Kudaku]

As soon as they get cheaper (and I get a house) I'm getting a Surface Table! :smallbiggrin:

Pop me an invite when that Table arrives, I'd love to get in on the action :smallcool:

[The Glyphstone]

I just wanted to add that I don't think you need to do anything special about this ninja. Sure, he's getting sneak attack a lot, but a Ninja/Rogue really needs that just to keep up in damage.

This is what I was thinking. If the Ninja is making the rest of the party look bad/unnecessary because of his Greater Invisibility, then this might be an issue - though I'd think it's more of an issue with the other party members, Ninjas are not exceptionally powerful characters in most circumstances.