Vaarsuvius' Children...

[Kruploy]

are 26 year old virgins who live with what passes for their mother and have to attend kindergarten.

Source: Strip #629

Apparently the intelligence of a 15 year old human can be compared favourably to that of an elf's at age 26.

This amuses me and is more than a little creepy.

[Keltest]

im going to assume you meant 5 year old, not 15. Otherwise I suggest you leave whatever town regularly has 15 year olds in kindergarten


Anyway, elves mature slower than humans. Im sure that if you compared the life of a human to, say, a housecat, we would seem equally immature to them given how long we live.

[RNGgod]

In On the Origins of PCs, Vaarsuvius makes reference to spending 20 years in diapers as a result of slower aging.

[Kruploy]

im going to assume you meant 5 year old, not 15. Otherwise I suggest you leave whatever town regularly has 15 year olds in kindergarten


Anyway, elves mature slower than humans. Im sure that if you compared the life of a human to, say, a housecat, we would seem equally immature to them given how long we live.

Actually I meant 15 year olds. A friend of mine recently argued that since we are unfamiliar with their education system, elven kindergarten could be equivalent of schools for 10 to 15 year old humans. Which would make elven kindergarteners smarten than human kindergarteners so I wanted to be clear on that.

Also, a house cat can never be as smart as a human, while elves live for centuries yet they can still be outsmarted or overwhelmed by humans.

Take V for example, he is centuries old and yet so below Xykon's power level it's not even funny. He even lost to the barely-out-of-puberty Samantha despite having having a small crowd on his side. That's saying something.

[Mauve Shirt]

I sure as heck wasn't making macaroni portraits of my parents in high school. :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

Actually I meant 15 year olds. A friend of mine recently argued that since we are unfamiliar with their education system, elven kindergarten could be equivalent of schools for 10 to 15 year old humans. Which would make elven kindergarteners smarten than human kindergarteners so I wanted to be clear on that.

Also, a house cat can never be as smart as a human, while elves live for centuries yet they can still be outsmarted or overwhelmed by humans.

Take V for example, he is centuries old and yet so below Xykon's power level it's not even funny. He even lost to the barely-out-of-puberty Samantha despite having having a small crowd on his side. That's saying something.

Yeah, that D&D mechanics never account for time investment. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html)

[BlackDragonKing]

As Haley pointed out, it kind of has to be like that or every Elf would have decades of experience in their chosen profession on adventurers of other species. The only race that could keep up would be Dwarves, MAYBE, and Elvish Wizards would essentially rule the world with a head start that big.

V didn't understand why that was a problem when they discussed it in Origin of the PCs, but she ended up taking Haley's word for it.

As it is, game balance requires Elves to be really old when they're entering the same stage of their life as young adult humans, so both of V's kids are kindergardeners by elf standards even though they're both older than Elan.

We don't understand Elvish gender identity, it's not like this is the first element of Elvish culture that reminds us they're not like us. :smalltongue:

[Ghost Nappa]

If Elves take longer to mature, why do their bodies require less rest?

Creatures that live longer should do everything slower.
Creatures that live for a shorter amount of time should do everything faster.

For a modern example, see Asari vs. Salarians.

[Keltest]

If Elves take longer to mature, why do their bodies require less rest?

Creatures that live longer should do everything slower.
Creatures that live for a shorter amount of time should do everything faster.

For a modern example, see Asari vs. Salarians.

Besides the fact that that's pretty clearly not true (many creatures with drastically shorter lifespans still require similar periods of rest as humans), it could be because they have evolved to operate more efficiently, I guess. Or magic, whichever one you prefer.

[Ghost Nappa]

Besides the fact that that's pretty clearly not true (many creatures with drastically shorter lifespans still require similar periods of rest as humans), it could be because they have evolved to operate more efficiently, I guess. Or magic, whichever one you prefer.

I'm not saying they can't rest. It makes perfect sense for things to rest.

But I've never really liked magic as a handwave for the management involuntary biological processes, wear, and fatigue. It's...

Well, I'm not sure what word I want to use here. "Lazy" is the first one that comes to mind, but that's not quite the issue I have. :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

I'm not saying they can't rest. It makes perfect sense for things to rest.

But I've never really liked magic as a handwave for the management involuntary biological processes, wear, and fatigue. It's...

Well, I'm not sure what word I want to use here. "Lazy" is the first one that comes to mind, but that's not quite the issue I have. :smallconfused:

Well, V outright states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)that his elven metabolism is far more efficient than human or Halfling or dwarven metabolisms. That could easily carry over to how much down time the body requires to get itself back in working order.

[jere7my]

I'm not saying they can't rest. It makes perfect sense for things to rest.

But I've never really liked magic as a handwave for the management involuntary biological processes, wear, and fatigue. It's...

Well, I'm not sure what word I want to use here. "Lazy" is the first one that comes to mind, but that's not quite the issue I have. :smallconfused:

Elves are magic. That's their thing. Magic is a perfectly appropriate explanation for their long lifespans.

There's a whole 'nother genre in which scientific explanations are more appropriate.

[Kish]

There are always tricky judgment calls in making sapient/protagonist races have vastly different lifespans. D&D has always established a "just-starting-to-adventure" elf as a little over a century, but, to my annoyance, has gradually moved in the direction of "nonhuman races age to adulthood like humans and then hang for a very long time at age thirty."

I like the way Rich does it better because I despise the "all the others are slight-variant humans" thing.

[Bulldog Psion]

They're still little kids at 26 because elves take a long, long time to mature, it seems. I fail to see how this is either particularly amusing or creepy. It just seems like some interesting background detail. :smallconfused:

[Ghost Nappa]

There are always tricky judgment calls in making sapient/protagonist races have vastly different lifespans. D&D has always established a "just-starting-to-adventure" elf as a little over a century, but, to my annoyance, has gradually moved in the direction of "nonhuman races age to adulthood like humans and then hang for a very long time at age thirty."

I like the way Rich does it better because I despise the "all the others are slight-variant humans" thing.

The funny thing is, the reason human beings get so weak and frail as they get older is BECAUSE of their rapid growth. Something like a Dragon or an elf that takes a long time to mature should actually be bigger, better, faster, stronger the older it is. I don't know if human level growth should mean a longer life-span. But I agree, the change to human level growth and then being stuck at a certain age is a bit dumb. Even in DBZ, pure-blood saiyans did NOT have human level growth. They sprouted noticeably later but stayed primed longer before rapidly declining and falling apart.


I do know that I like there to be a dividing line between "this being is a supernatural, magical personification of evil" (like a succubus) and "this is a normal person who has studied how to use magic" (like a wizard).

Because I feel like I might as well be told that elves are humans with magic blood. Their blood is actually just half-pixie dust or something. If you poured it into a jar, you could drink it and it would like a spice drink.

[konradknox]

If Elves take longer to mature, why do their bodies require less rest?

Creatures that live longer should do everything slower.
Creatures that live for a shorter amount of time should do everything faster.

For a modern example, see Asari vs. Salarians.


Because elves are superior creatures. All elves are lords to you, puny human.
And their stool smells like forest flowers.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, Elves are ubermenschen, pure and simple.

If you read Tolkien's books with an eye on the Elves, you'll notice that the elves in D&D are actually toned down.

The ones in, say, the Silmarillion are large and tough, able to survive stuff that would kill a human (like, say, dangling from a cliff by one hand spiked to the rock for several weeks, before someone comes to rescue you by cutting off your hand -- after which you become an even bigger badass because of your elvish desire for revenge). They're immune to age and disease, can run over the surface of snow without sinking in, can stay on horseback while fighting without the need for a saddle, and can go toe to toe with a balrog with some hope of at least taking the creature down with them. Plus everything they make -- food, tools, rope, etc. -- is highly attractive and immensely effective.

You could probably simulate them in D&D by giving the average elf all 18 stats, plus every feat in the book at first level. :smallbiggrin:

Though admittedly, Tolkien never addressed the aroma of elf droppings. :smallbiggrin:

So, I'm just kind of glad that they toned the elves down as much as they did from the fantasy story that prompted so much D&D material to begin with. Otherwise, the elves would be really intolerable.

[Kish]

On the other hand, in Tolkien they're also, unambiguously, supporting characters in a world of human heroes; their time has passed, they don't even really belong here anymore.

I'm grateful that D&D (...eventually...) got away from that part.

[Bulldog Psion]

On the other hand, in Tolkien they're also, unambiguously, supporting characters in a world of human heroes; their time has passed, they don't even really belong here anymore.

I'm grateful that D&D (...eventually...) got away from that part.

That is true. No reason to port over the Curse of Mandos, which is specific to the Middle Earth campaign world, after all. :smallwink:

[Scow2]

In official D&D Canon, elves mature at about a third again the rate of humans, being physically 'mature' at age 20 instead of 15.

But, given that they live for centuries, they need 100 or so years to socially mature - for the same reason humans need at least 3 more years (And closer to 8 for a lot of people) to finish socially maturing. Until they start adventuring, they spend that time doing... not much, really. Being elves, trying to find themselves, that sort of thing.

In the stickverse, it's trying to apply human growth rates to elves. Yes, technically speaking, all elves are retarded (In the medical sense).

[Kruploy]

They're still little kids at 26 because elves take a long, long time to mature, it seems. I fail to see how this is either particularly amusing or creepy. It just seems like some interesting background detail. :smallconfused:

Four words: Diapers for twenty years. :smalltongue:

I'm just saying it's kind of odd that elves regard themselves as superior to humans when their minds mature so much more slower than humans. If a war broke out between them humans would win hands down.

[Keltest]

Four words: Diapers for twenty years. :smalltongue:

I'm just saying it's kind of odd that elves regard themselves as superior to humans when their minds mature so much more slower than humans. If a war broke out between them humans would win hands down.

How do you figure? Humans could conceivably win through numbers, but elves almost definitely have a magic and training advantage. Quality vs quantity.

[Kruploy]

How do you figure? Humans could conceivably win through numbers, but elves almost definitely have a magic and training advantage. Quality vs quantity.

Yeah but elves need something akin to a century to have people resembling adults. Also not only are there plenty of proficient human mages but humans also have plenty of paladins with training at least as demanding as the elvish ways.

The quality of elves isn't as great as that of humans. In fact, I would say they are more or less on equal grounds. Elves have wizards and archers while humans have soldiers and paladins. Elves will run out of manpower eventually.

[Keltest]

Yeah but elves need something akin to a century to have people resembling adults. Also not only are there plenty of proficient human mages but humans also have plenty of paladins with training at least as demanding as the elvish ways.

The quality of elves isn't as great as that of humans. In fact, I would say they are more or less on equal grounds. Elves have wizards and archers while humans have soldiers and paladins. Elves will run out of manpower eventually.

Im not sure where youre getting your information, but in most D&D campaign worlds, its wrong, and we don't have enough information on the elves in this one to make that determination.

[hamishspence]

Im not sure where youre getting your information, but in most D&D campaign worlds, its wrong, and we don't have enough information on the elves in this one to make that determination.The source that says elves are physically mature at 25 but "mentally mature" at about 110 (the "Adulthood" age for them on table 6-4 in PHB) is Races of the Wild (p13)

It also says that while that table shows the normal age at which many elves feel ready to roam, sometimes elves go adventuring at much younger ages.

And that, while usually you can tell how old an elf is from conversation, since elves "gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience, and wisdom throughout these ageless decades" - there are exceptions- some elves are remarkably poised for their age, and there are elven tales of bereaved elves of 150-odd falling in love with elves of 25-30-odd, with much greater emotional maturity than usual.

[Keltest]

The source that says elves are physically mature at 25 but "mentally mature" at about 110 (the "Adulthood" age for them on table 6-4 in PHB) is Races of the Wild (p13)

It also says that while that table shows the normal age at which many elves feel ready to roam, sometimes elves go adventuring at much younger ages.

And that, while usually you can tell how old an elf is from conversation, since elves "gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience, and wisdom throughout these ageless decades" - there are exceptions- some elves are remarkably poised for their age, and there are elven tales of bereaved elves of 150-odd falling in love with elves of 25-30-odd, with much greater emotional maturity than usual.

I was referring mostly the the quality and inclination of their soldiers. Theres no evidence that the elves have few footmen.

[hamishspence]

in Heroes of Battle- the typical elven army is made up of rangers- with wizard (and high level ranger) officers.

[Amphiox]

A certain level of suspension of disbelief is required to accept that elves take longer to reach maturity, but upon joining an adventuring party, level-up just as quickly as everyone else, and appear to adapt and learn at exactly the same pace. And then, after the campaigning is done, and your now über-levelled human characters retire, get senescent, and die, your equally über-levelled elf party-mate, who still has several centuries left of prime living, doesn't just keep adventuring with new party-mates, keeps on levelling up on and on into the epic stratosphere, until, after a few thousand years, the world is run by epic elven virtual Demi-gods....

You can get around the problem in narrative by postulating relatively young created worlds. If the universe was created en omphalos only a couple thousand years ago, there isn't enough time for long-lived elves to dominate.

But, if you leave a world running with too such similar species in competition with such disparate lifespans, there's only two possible outcomes in the long term. Either the long lived race dominates through the accumulation of experience, or attrition rates among the young are so high that the long lived slow breeding race gets swamped out and eliminated/absorbed (if interbreeding is possible). At the same time both species would experience selection forces on their lifespan that would lead to them converging towards a single optimum, so after tens of thousands of years, they'll have similar lifespans.

The above would be slowed down/stopped if there are geographic barriers that separate the two species, but that would mean limited interaction for shared campaigns.

The realistic long term result of most D&D worlds is eventually a world full of humans with a few percentages of elven (and dwarven/halfling/etc) blood, not dissimilar to modern humans and Neanderthals in the real world.

[Amphiox]

The source that says elves are physically mature at 25 but "mentally mature" at about 110 (the "Adulthood" age for them on table 6-4 in PHB) is Races of the Wild (p13)

It also says that while that table shows the normal age at which many elves feel ready to roam, sometimes elves go adventuring at much younger ages.

And that, while usually you can tell how old an elf is from conversation, since elves "gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience, and wisdom throughout these ageless decades" - there are exceptions- some elves are remarkably poised for their age, and there are elven tales of bereaved elves of 150-odd falling in love with elves of 25-30-odd, with much greater emotional maturity than usual.

Whoever came up with that REALLY did not think the implications through. Physical maturity without mental maturity means a child with an adult body, with adult physical capabilities. And I sure hope those 25 year old elves aren't mentally equivalent to 5 year old humans, because 3-5 year old human children are essentially psychopaths/sociopaths, and hyper-aggressive ones to boot (whose aggression is trivially manageable only because they are too small and uncoordinated to do much harm, and they naturally grow out of it in a short period of time).

It is hard to imagine how elven society could even function if they had what is basically toddlers with adult physical capabilities. Discipline of juveniles would probably REQUIRE extensive usage of magic...

[NerdyKris]

You can get around the problem in narrative by postulating relatively young created worlds. If the universe was created en omphalos only a couple thousand years ago, there isn't enough time for long-lived elves to dominate.


Which, in fact, the OOTS verse is, at 1,185-ish years old. Which raises an interesting scenario. There should be senior aged elves whose parents and or grandparents remember both the creation of the world AND the creation of the monster races later. At the very least, it should be part of their recent cultural history.

[Keltest]

Whoever came up with that REALLY did not think the implications through. Physical maturity without mental maturity means a child with an adult body, with adult physical capabilities. And I sure hope those 25 year old elves aren't mentally equivalent to 5 year old humans, because 3-5 year old human children are essentially psychopaths/sociopaths, and hyper-aggressive ones to boot (whose aggression is trivially manageable only because they are too small and uncoordinated to do much harm, and they naturally grow out of it in a short period of time).

It is hard to imagine how elven society could even function if they had what is basically toddlers with adult physical capabilities. Discipline of juveniles would probably REQUIRE extensive usage of magic...

At least in OOTS, theyre Kindergarten age, so that would be right on the edge of that. Furthermore, they LOOK kindergarten age as well, so obviously that particular source doesn't hold much water here.

[warrl]

In official D&D Canon, elves mature at about a third again the rate of humans, being physically 'mature' at age 20 instead of 15.

But, given that they live for centuries, they need 100 or so years to socially mature - for the same reason humans need at least 3 more years (And closer to 8 for a lot of people) to finish socially maturing. Until they start adventuring, they spend that time doing... not much, really. Being elves, trying to find themselves, that sort of thing.

You mean they are 16-year-olds for 80 years?

No wonder elves are not more numerous - if they don't go insane and get themselves killed, their parents go insane and kill them.

[hamishspence]

You mean they are 16-year-olds for 80 years?

According to the PHB table, 110 for an elf is the equivalent of 15 for a human ("adulthood age").

However, Races of the Wild ignores this, making it simply "age an elf would be expected to start thinking about adventuring". It also takes into account the fact that even if 15 can be the theoretical human adulthood age, they actually continue to grow and "fill out" past that, to about 20 or so.


Whoever came up with that REALLY did not think the implications through. Physical maturity without mental maturity means a child with an adult body, with adult physical capabilities. And I sure hope those 25 year old elves aren't mentally equivalent to 5 year old humans, because 3-5 year old human children are essentially psychopaths/sociopaths, and hyper-aggressive ones to boot (whose aggression is trivially manageable only because they are too small and uncoordinated to do much harm, and they naturally grow out of it in a short period of time).

It is hard to imagine how elven society could even function if they had what is basically toddlers with adult physical capabilities. Discipline of juveniles would probably REQUIRE extensive usage of magic...
Note that the elven definition of "mentally mature" is somewhat different from the human definition:

RoTW p13:

Elves grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10 year old elf boy and a 10 year old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity. The elf will be shorter and slighter than his human playmate. He is also quite likely to be more patient, observant, and self-sufficient, simply due to the influence of growing up in an elf household.

Humans finish their "filling out" and full adult growth by about age 20, but elves take a little longer, rarely reaching their full height and weight before age 25. After that, elves remain virtually timeless, decade after decade. Not even another elf can tell at a glance whether an elf is 25, 50, or 100 years of age.

Think of a 25 year old elf as the equivalent of a 20 year old human and you'd be about right.

[Kish]

Yeah but elves need something akin to a century to have people resembling adults. Also not only are there plenty of proficient human mages but humans also have plenty of paladins with training at least as demanding as the elvish ways.

The quality of elves isn't as great as that of humans. In fact, I would say they are more or less on equal grounds. Elves have wizards and archers while humans have soldiers and paladins. Elves will run out of manpower eventually.
Paladins as something only humans have is so at-least-one-edition ago. And soldiers as something humans have that elves do not is never.

[hamishspence]

That said, elven soldiers might be most commonly "archer rangers" in D&D though.

[Keltest]

That said, elven soldiers might be most commonly "archer rangers" in D&D though.

Depending on the environment, that could end up being far more effective than a legion of footmen in plate armor.

[Kruploy]

Paladins as something only humans have is so at-least-one-edition ago. And soldiers as something humans have that elves do not is never.

Oh I am sure elves have their own footmen and paladins too but in every piece of fiction I have encountered elves got their archers as the best of their ilk while humans got their infantry since elves got that whole in tune with nature thing going on and also because elvish archer women are hot, though males have no shortage of fans either. Legolas comes to mind.

Anyway, as for Paladins, when you say paladin, human paladins most commonly come to mind not elvish ones. This is because human paladins are the most prominent paladins of all.

What I am saying is that there are some classes commonly attributed to elves just like there are some classes attributed to humans. There is a reason elves in LOTR brag about archery while Rohan has the cavalry and Gondor has its pikemen.

[Keltest]

Oh I am sure elves have their own footmen and paladins too but in every piece of fiction I have encountered elves got their archers as the best of their ilk while humans got their infantry since elves got that whole in tune with nature thing going on and also because elvish archer women are hot, though males have no shortage of fans either. Legolas comes to mind.

Anyway, as for Paladins, when you say paladin, human paladins most commonly come to mind not elvish ones. This is because human paladins are the most prominent paladins of all.

What I am saying is that there are some classes commonly attributed to elves just like there are some classes attributed to humans. There is a reason elves in LOTR brag about archery while Rohan has the cavalry and Gondor has its pikemen.

Yes, human paladins are more common, if only because there are more humans.

That does not mean however that elves LACK these things, or that they are in any way inferior to the average human equivalent. Besides which, what other worlds do is irrelevant to this world.

[Fnordius]

A certain level of suspension of disbelief is required to accept that elves take longer to reach maturity, but upon joining an adventuring party, level-up just as quickly as everyone else, and appear to adapt and learn at exactly the same pace. And then, after the campaigning is done, and your now über-levelled human characters retire, get senescent, and die, your equally über-levelled elf party-mate, who still has several centuries left of prime living, doesn't just keep adventuring with new party-mates, keeps on levelling up on and on into the epic stratosphere, until, after a few thousand years, the world is run by epic elven virtual Demi-gods....

You can get around the problem in narrative by postulating relatively young created worlds. If the universe was created en omphalos only a couple thousand years ago, there isn't enough time for long-lived elves to dominate.

But, if you leave a world running with too such similar species in competition with such disparate lifespans, there's only two possible outcomes in the long term. Either the long lived race dominates through the accumulation of experience, or attrition rates among the young are so high that the long lived slow breeding race gets swamped out and eliminated/absorbed (if interbreeding is possible). At the same time both species would experience selection forces on their lifespan that would lead to them converging towards a single optimum, so after tens of thousands of years, they'll have similar lifespans.

The above would be slowed down/stopped if there are geographic barriers that separate the two species, but that would mean limited interaction for shared campaigns.

The realistic long term result of most D&D worlds is eventually a world full of humans with a few percentages of elven (and dwarven/halfling/etc) blood, not dissimilar to modern humans and Neanderthals in the real world.

I suppose the out that you could use is to state that elves gather experiences in spurts, able to go for centuries not really doing anything. After one or two decades adventuring with humans, they may feel the need to step back from such an unbearably hectic lifestyle and just – oh, I don't know – work on baking the perfect cookie, perhaps.

[Kish]

I suppose the out that you could use is to state that elves gather experiences in spurts, able to go for centuries not really doing anything. After one or two decades adventuring with humans, they may feel the need to step back from such an unbearably hectic lifestyle and just – oh, I don't know – work on baking the perfect cookie, perhaps.
Indeed, it's not like the standard adventurer level progression fits the human lifespan particularly well. Sure, Vaarsuvius has gone from being an apprentice to Power Word Stun in, what, two years at the outside? But all the members of the Order have gone from rank novices to near-epic in two years at the outside. NPC adventurers have assigned levels that generally relate to their age, but PC adventurers level at a rate that seems ludicrous by comparison.

[Keltest]

Indeed, it's not like the standard adventurer level progression fits the human lifespan particularly well. Sure, Vaarsuvius has gone from being an apprentice to Power Word Stun in, what, two years at the outside? But all the members of the Order have gone from rank novices to near-epic in two years at the outside. NPC adventurers have assigned levels that generally relate to their age, but PC adventurers level at a rate that seems ludicrous by comparison.

In older versions of the players handbooks (I don't know about newer ones, I haven't read them that thoroughly) it will make passing mentions to player characters being exceptional in their respective field. The word prodigy comes to mind but is never mentioned.

[Reddish Mage]

A certain level of suspension of disbelief is required to accept that elves take longer to reach maturity, but upon joining an adventuring party, level-up just as quickly as everyone else, and appear to adapt and learn at exactly the same pace... And then, after the campaigning is done, and your now über-levelled human characters retire, get senescent, and die, your equally über-levelled elf party-mate, who still has several centuries left of prime living, doesn't just keep adventuring with new party-mates, keeps on levelling up on and on into the epic stratosphere, until, after a few thousand years, the world is run by epic elven virtual Demi-gods....


Whoever came up with that REALLY did not think the implications through. Physical maturity without mental maturity means a child with an adult body, with adult physical capabilities. And I sure hope those 25 year old elves aren't mentally equivalent to 5 year old humans, because 3-5 year old human children are essentially psychopaths/sociopaths, and hyper-aggressive ones to boot (whose aggression is trivially manageable only because they are too small and uncoordinated to do much harm, and they naturally grow out of it in a short period of time)...


Indeed, it's not like the standard adventurer level progression fits the human lifespan particularly well. Sure, Vaarsuvius has gone from being an apprentice to Power Word Stun in, what, two years at the outside? But all the members of the Order have gone from rank novices to near-epic in two years at the outside. NPC adventurers have assigned levels that generally relate to their age, but PC adventurers level at a rate that seems ludicrous by comparison.


In older versions of the players handbooks (I don't know about newer ones, I haven't read them that thoroughly) it will make passing mentions to player characters being exceptional in their respective field. The word prodigy comes to mind but is never mentioned.

Didn't the Giant address such thinking in OoPCs? "Sneak attack upside the head!"

Really, it requires no suspension of disbelief to believe that PCs are exceptional, that only a few odd-folk ever become professional adventurers, of those few, few ever keep at it until reaching high level (which also describes most campaigns I participate in...). Of those that do, most retire at some point rather than continuing to level until they reach deity status either figuratively or literaly (depending on which books you are using).

Elves are not like humans, when they mix with humans they often start acting like them, but when they aren't they are canonically much more relaxed and slower to progress in mastering skills. However, even among humans, how many don't achieve the highest levels of mastery that is possible for only a few, despite having the time to do so?

I find it hard to see what that there is any conceptual problems here, certainly not ones that can't be easily worked out with a little creativity.

[Amphiox]

Elves grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10 year old elf boy and a 10 year old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity. The elf will be shorter and slighter than his human playmate. He is also quite likely to be more patient, observant, and self-sufficient, simply due to the influence of growing up in an elf household.

Humans finish their "filling out" and full adult growth by about age 20, but elves take a little longer, rarely reaching their full height and weight before age 25. After that, elves remain virtually timeless, decade after decade. Not even another elf can tell at a glance whether an elf is 25, 50, or 100 years of age.

Think of a 25 year old elf as the equivalent of a 20 year old human and you'd be about right.

Call me cynical if you must, but I have this nagging suspicion that they made that rule-set up primarily so that gamers could ship humans and elves without having to contemplate the idea of doing the deed with 100+ year olds....

Of course this runs into the opposite problem. Consider what your average 25-year old human is like in terms of emotional maturity, decision-making ability, and the like, and imagine a world where all the world leaders, religious figures, business people, etc, in short everyone who has power, is stuck perpetually as an unchanging 25-year-old.

I suppose that *could* explain how elven nations are so often so ineffectual politically in many fantasy settings relative to the apparent individual superiorities that elves supposedly have over humans....


Oh I am sure elves have their own footmen and paladins too but in every piece of fiction I have encountered elves got their archers as the best of their ilk while humans got their infantry since elves got that whole in tune with nature thing going on and also because elvish archer women are hot, though males have no shortage of fans either. Legolas comes to mind.

Well, considering how often Legolas the archer wielded his bow like a short-range melee weapon, and how *successful* he was at it, and how he, like, *never* seems to run into the problem that human archers do when they're forced to fight up close and personal with a heavily armored infantryman, it is understandable that the elves might employ archers instead of infantry. (What is less understandable is why the various human nations have never seemed to try to figure out how the elves train their archers for this and copy them...)

[Keltest]

Call be cynical if you must, but I have this nagging suspicion that they made that rule-set up primarily so that gamers could ship humans and elves without having to contemplate the idea of doing the deed with 100+ year olds....

Easy mate, kids play this game sometimes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)

[Kish]

In older versions of the players handbooks (I don't know about newer ones, I haven't read them that thoroughly) it will make passing mentions to player characters being exceptional in their respective field. The word prodigy comes to mind but is never mentioned.
That doesn't really explain it; if Roy's rapid leveling for the past [two years at the outside] is because he's a prodigy, why did he reach age 28 without achieving fourth level? Why did Vaarsuvius have to become an adventurer to level quickly, rather than shrugging at what Haley said and saying, "None of that applies to me, the speed at which I learn shows that I'll be level fifty before I reach two hundred"? No, they became "exceptional" when the spotlight got turned on them.

I don't really see how the "shipping" thing would explain it either; at least as late as 3.5ed, a first-level elf adventurer is at least 114 by default.

[Keltest]

That doesn't really explain it; if Roy's rapid leveling for the past [two years at the outside] is because he's a prodigy, why did he reach age 28 without achieving fourth level? Why did Vaarsuvius have to become an adventurer to level quickly, rather than shrugging at what Haley said and saying, "None of that applies to me, the speed at which I learn shows that I'll be level fifty before I reach two hundred"? No, they became "exceptional" when the spotlight got turned on them.

I don't really see how the "shipping" thing would explain it either; at least as late as 3.5ed, a first-level elf adventurer is at least 114 by default.

Because game mechanics. As much as one wants to, and as devoted as the fanbase is, there comes a point where you have to throw your hands in the air and go "screw it, its a game. It doesn't have to make sense."

[Amphiox]

I find it hard to see what that there is any conceptual problems here, certainly not ones that can't be easily worked out with a little creativity.

Like I said, one can obviate all the problems in narrative by postulating a "young" world. It isn't a problem for creating fictional worlds or campaigns.

But all your solutions *require* a young world. If you let a world run on ad infinitum, like the real world (or at least until the heat death of the universe, per se), then no matter how rare something is, because it is self-sustaining, it will accumulate, until a tipping point is reached where it comes to dominate.

In fact, after the era of epic elven demigods dominating the show, the next era would probably be epic-former-elven-evil-demigods-who-turned-themselves-into-immortal-epic-demigod-liches running the show.

Maybe that's what the Snarl REALLY is. It's the universal reset button, which consumes the old, degenerated worlds where everything has broken down because the rules weren't designed to run a universe for millions of years, so that new, young worlds can constantly be made....


I don't really see how the "shipping" thing would explain it either; at least as late as 3.5ed, a first-level elf adventurer is at least 114 by default.

Backstory shipping. It lets players roll half-elven characters without having to spend time thinking about 200 year old elf mothers. And it allows your stalwart paladin to have a 25 year old rather than a 200 year old elvish sweetheart waiting for him back home, for him to pine about in character moments, or show pictures of to his party-mates one round before he gets offed by the evil lich....

[Ghost Nappa]

Because game mechanics. As much as one wants to, and as devoted as the fanbase is, there comes a point where you have to throw your hands in the air and go "screw it, its a game. It doesn't have to make sense."

So you're saying the mechanical aging of elves can be compared to the grappling rules?

Count me on the side of favoring internal consistency. You are right in some sense (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim); there is a point where after you continue to ask questions you wind up with only an answer of "because."

But when a group of people (who are semi-educated to educated on the subject) can't agree out how one of four most important races in your lore works, there'a s problem.

I've gotten two different descriptions for why elves work differently:
1) They're magic. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16689660&postcount=12)
2) They're ubermenschen. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16690978&postcount=17)

One is a biological answer, one is a magical answer. :smallannoyed: I have no problem with elves being "superior" to humans, but at least get people to agree on the why!

[Keltest]

So you're saying the mechanical aging of elves can be compared to the grappling rules?

Count me on the side of favoring internal consistency. You are right in some sense (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim); there is a point where after you continue to ask questions you wind up with only an answer of "because."

But when a group of people (who are semi-educated to educated on the subject) can't agree out how one of four most important races in your lore works, there'a s problem.

I've gotten two different descriptions for why elves work differently:
1) They're magic. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16689660&postcount=12)
2) They're ubermenschen. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16690978&postcount=17)

One is a biological answer, one is a magical answer. :smallannoyed: I have no problem with elves being "superior" to humans, but at least get people to agree on the why!

Its more than just elves. Any and all PCs will gain power at a rate far exceeding the rate that NPCs had to earn it in the lore.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) comic
highlights the problem exactly.

[Ghost Nappa]

Its more than just elves. Any and all PCs will gain power at a rate far exceeding the rate that NPCs had to earn it in the lore.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) comic
highlights the problem exactly.
That is not the problem to which I am referring at all.
I'm not talking about class power, features, or anything of the sort. I am not talking about acquired power by adventuring. That is a whole different can of worms.

I'm talking about racial features, benefits, and fluff. I'm talking about the world design of an entire collection of beings. I am talking about what makes elves different than humans.

Does the inclusion of spiked ears somehow lead to an additional 600 years of life?

[Kish]

No, having round ears cuts a species' lifespan way down, actually.

Only applies to species that average over five feet tall. Scientific fact.

[Keltest]

That is not the problem to which I am referring at all.
I'm not talking about class power, features, or anything of the sort. I am not talking about acquired power by adventuring. That is a whole different can of worms.

I'm talking about racial features, benefits, and fluff. I'm talking about the world design of an entire collection of beings. I am talking about what makes elves different than humans.

Does the inclusion of spiked ears somehow lead to an additional 600 years of life?

It was the problem to which I was referring to when you responded to me though, so I assumed you were talking about the same thing.

As for elves, its usually explained as magic. Forgotten Realms uses the phrase "part of the weave" (the energy force of magic) to describe them.

[veti]

Really, it requires no suspension of disbelief to believe that PCs are exceptional, that only a few odd-folk ever become professional adventurers, of those few, few ever keep at it until reaching high level (which also describes most campaigns I participate in...).

According to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16671538&postcount=3), there are likely to be a non-trivial number of high-level people in a "default" 3.x world.

In OOTS, we know Azure City had several mid-level spellcasters on its payroll. We saw whatsername (the blind seer), the nameless teleporting mage, the high priest of the Twelve Gods, to say nothing of all those paladins. Where did they all get their XP from?


Well, considering how often Legolas the archer wielded his bow like a short-range melee weapon, and how *successful* he was at it, and how he, like, *never* seems to run into the problem that human archers do when they're forced to fight up close and personal with a heavily armored infantryman, it is understandable that the elves might employ archers instead of infantry. (What is less understandable is why the various human nations have never seemed to try to figure out how the elves train their archers for this and copy them...)

Legolas's age is unknown, but by Tolkien's rules it's not stretching the bounds of anything for Legolas to have been fully two thousand years old. You can get a lot of training into that time.

Plus Peter Jackson and Orlando Bloom between them came up with a whole lotta "cool-looking" bull excrement that has zero basis in the books.

[Kish]

Backstory shipping. It lets players roll half-elven characters without having to spend time thinking about 200 year old elf mothers. And it allows your stalwart paladin to have a 25 year old rather than a 200 year old elvish sweetheart waiting for him back home, for him to pine about in character moments, or show pictures of to his party-mates one round before he gets offed by the evil lich....
That doesn't really make any sense. You know large numbers of players who find it somehow disturbing to have elves have longer lifespans than humans, want to play half-elves but choke on the concept "my parents fell in love when they were both barely adults, my father being 18 and my mother being 110," and want to play human characters who have romances with elves but also find elves aging differently than humans something to pretend isn't there? Seriously? If, for whatever reason, a given player wants her/his human male knight to have a romance with a female elvish NPC he made up--someone s/he chose to have be an elf, not a human--why would s/he not want to consider that elf the elven equivalent of 25 for a human rather than actually 25?

[brionl]

Whoever came up with that REALLY did not think the implications through. Physical maturity without mental maturity means a child with an adult body, with adult physical capabilities. And I sure hope those 25 year old elves aren't mentally equivalent to 5 year old humans, because 3-5 year old human children are essentially psychopaths/sociopaths, and hyper-aggressive ones to boot (whose aggression is trivially manageable only because they are too small and uncoordinated to do much harm, and they naturally grow out of it in a short period of time).

It is hard to imagine how elven society could even function if they had what is basically toddlers with adult physical capabilities. Discipline of juveniles would probably REQUIRE extensive usage of magic...

More like, stupid teenagers for 75 years. 16 or 17 year old humans think they are fully mature, but really they aren't.

[brionl]

That is not the problem to which I am referring at all.
I'm not talking about class power, features, or anything of the sort. I am not talking about acquired power by adventuring. That is a whole different can of worms.

I'm talking about racial features, benefits, and fluff. I'm talking about the world design of an entire collection of beings. I am talking about what makes elves different than humans.

Does the inclusion of spiked ears somehow lead to an additional 600 years of life?

Chillax dude, it's only a game.

[Kruploy]

Yes, human paladins are more common, if only because there are more humans.

That does not mean however that elves LACK these things, or that they are in any way inferior to the average human equivalent. Besides which, what other worlds do is irrelevant to this world.

Yeah, that's what I partially said, I am sure elves do not lack these things. What I mean to say is, elvish traditions are more focused on archery while human traditions favor infantry. This is mostly because elves tend to hole up in forests while humans live in all kinds of places. Hence the standard issue elf dudes being rangers and wizards like our friend in yellow said.

Also, Tolkien practically defined the fictional world of fantasy as it exists today. Almost every single work of fantasy fiction takes some form of inspirations from that guy's writings. He is why elves live in forest and dwarves live underground or in mountains even in D&D and this vey web comic. You do have a point though, this is a D&D setting so other works are largely irrelevant.

@Amphiox

Legolas runs strictly on fangirls. He is like a god but he takes his power from wet dreams instead of faith. His special feat allows his coolness factor to increase in proportion to his number of fans. In fact, this is why he survives the movies. The only way to hurt him is write yaoi fanfiction starring him and Gimli or Aragorn.

That being said, perhaps we could attribute adventurers' rapid growth to the rigorous training they undergo everyday.

Take Roy for example, he constantly faces against real, powerful targets that he is allowed to kill, that has got be bounds better than sparring.

Rouges like Haley are constantly confronted with more and more complicated traps and locks. They also get to practice backstabbing more and more powerful enemies.

Clerics like Durkon constantly achieve difficult stuff, earning their deity ever greater recognition and thus gaining power and recognition from their god in turn.

Bards like Elan get more inspiration the greater the challenges the party experiences.

Rangers like Belkar get more in tune with their bond with nature as they make sure their party get through treacherous environments alive. They also get to further their knowledge of prey as they encounter a wide variety of foes and different versions of those foes.

Wizards like V get to unleash their powers everyday. I mean come on, how are going to practice spells like PW: Stun at home?

Then again, perhaps not.

[Amphiox]

Saying it is just a game/story/myth so we should roll with it misses the important point about considering these questions.

Yes, they ARE just stories, but because they are stories, we, the collective that creates these stories and fuels their creation by consuming the tales so created, are free to make them any way we want. So why did we choose to make them THIS way, out of all the possible ways we could have chosen.

Elves belong in a larger class of fictional superhuman beings that spans literary genres, from angels to aliens (not for nothing are certain scifi aliens referred to as "space elves"). Better than humans. Less than gods. We as a people love creating such beings in our fiction. We lap it up as audiences. Far more so than the opposite - a race that is sentient but inferior to humans in all aspects, which humans are responsible for nurturing and guiding(or have the power to exploit, and must choose whether or not to do so.)

We love it so much that we tolerate inconsistencies in how their attributes should impact the mechanics of the narrative worlds we put them in far greater than what we on average as audiences tolerate in most other aspects of world building, just do that we can have them and see them interacting with the "puny" humans.

Why is that?

The answer to this question tells us profound things about we ourselves as a storytelling and story consuming sentient species.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Indeed, it's not like the standard adventurer level progression fits the human lifespan particularly well...

The Order gained a lot of experience in the recent past, but I don't think they are expected to maintain that pace. "Standard adventurer progression" seems like: gain few or no levels until early adulthood, gain levels (maybe quickly) while adventuring for a while, gain few or no levels after that." Vaarsuvius may have gone from apprentice to archmage in a few years, but he was an apprentice for many years before that.

[jere7my]

We lap it up as audiences. Far more so than the opposite - a race that is sentient but inferior to humans in all aspects, which humans are responsible for nurturing and guiding(or have the power to exploit, and must choose whether or not to do so.)

Nah. There are loads of stories about dogs, cats, and children.

[Amphiox]

One thing about the Order, though, is they STARTED at level 8-10 or thereabouts, which those who know have stated is actually already pretty high.

What we saw of their pre-OotS adventuring in OoPCs was decidedly low key stuff, and it appeared to have been only a very short period of time between Roy graduating from Fighter School and resolving to "get some experience" before taking on Xykon, and then decided "welp, got enough experience now, time to get a party together and go after that lich". If he graduated as a Level 1 fighter that's a lot of experience that he racked up doing stuff like negotiating with ogres who people think are threatening a concert.

Is it possible that he graduated from Fighter School at a level higher than 1? But even so it is hard to imagine a graduate being anything higher than level 3.

[Kish]

No need to imagine, he said outright that he didn't have Weapon Specialization yet, so he was below level 4 when he graduated. And has gained at least a dozen levels...over the course of maybe two years.

[Ghost Nappa]

Chillax dude, it's only a game.

If I wanted to play a game where I didn't understand why things work the way they do, I'd go back to old-school Yugioh.


No, having round ears cuts a species' lifespan way down, actually.

Only applies to species that average over five feet tall. Scientific fact.
:smallconfused:
...

Seems legit. :smallamused:

[Nightsbridge]

Seriously though, I'm not see why people need to know exactly why Elves live to a certain age. Why do humans only live for about eighty/ninety years on average? It's the way they are, it's how they're built, it's how it works. Why do things like elves need an explanation for being different than humans? 'They're not human, they work differently' is a plenty good explanation.

[Fnordius]

Seriously though, I'm not see why people need to know exactly why Elves live to a certain age. Why do humans only live for about eighty/ninety years on average? It's the way they are, it's how they're built, it's how it works. Why do things like elves need an explanation for being different than humans? 'They're not human, they work differently' is a plenty good explanation.

Add to this the fact that fantasy worlds do not have to follow biology as we know it, though OotS elementals are unique in game worlds in being chemical elements rather than elements in the sense of four states of matter (solid, liquid, gaseous and energy) and leaves room for the Giant to use as much modern biology as he wants to be funny.

It would be interesting if he took the Tolkein approach to elves, binding their souls to the plane they are born in, having them reincarnate in an OotS form of the Halls of Mandos until . I hope I'm not jinxing the Vaarsuvius plot line by suggesting that the whatchamacallit evil trio are using their chits now because they know they cannot claim elf souls after death. More likely the elves presented here are more akin to those that have been in AD&D since the 1st edition, with longer lifespans as flavor text that plays no real role in the mechanics of the game.

As for why elves normally take so long to grow up or learn something, well, their long lives make them terrible procrastinators. That is something you cannot be when you are adventuring, but growing up? Oh, you can take your time. Young Qui'Bler and Legomyego will learn to read and write eventually, no rush.

[Amphiox]

Seriously though, I'm not see why people need to know exactly why Elves live to a certain age. Why do humans only live for about eighty/ninety years on average? It's the way they are, it's how they're built, it's how it works. Why do things like elves need an explanation for being different than humans? 'They're not human, they work differently' is a plenty good explanation.

You understand that in the real world we have legions of researchers who have dedicated their entire professional lives to figuring out why exactly humans live for as long as we do, and that many more people besides them want to know?

The need for explanation is a universal human instinct. The need is so strong it leaches into our most trivial pursuits. It is the way we are. It is how our brains are put together. It's how it works.

[Rodin]

You understand that in the real world we have legions of researchers who have dedicated their entire professional lives to figuring out why exactly humans live for as long as we do, and that many more people besides them want to know?

The need for explanation is a universal human instinct. The need is so strong it leaches into our most trivial pursuits. It is the way we are. It is how our brains are put together. It's how it works.

Scientists research why humans live as long as they do in an attempt to extend that amount, either by increasing the actual lifespan or curing diseases. It also allows research into increasing the quality of life at higher ages.

In fiction though, there's no such need. "It's magic" and "it just does, okay?" are equally valid explanations as "they've got midichlorians" or "super good genes", because either way it's a totally fictional construct where knowing the answer doesn't improve the human condition.

If you really get down to brass tacks, Elves live longer because it's a handy story-telling way to make them more alien and it's a great source of tension between them and shorter lived races.

[Amphiox]

Scientists research why humans live as long as they do in an attempt to extend that amount, either by increasing the actual lifespan or curing diseases. It also allows research into increasing the quality of life at higher ages.

In fiction though, there's no such need. "It's magic" and "it just does, okay?" are equally valid explanations as "they've got midichlorians" or "super good genes", because either way it's a totally fictional construct where knowing the answer doesn't improve the human condition.

If you really get down to brass tacks, Elves live longer because it's a handy story-telling way to make them more alien and it's a great source of tension between them and shorter lived races.

I can assure you that the vast majority of those doing that research and following that research aren't doing it for utilitarian motivation as the primary moving force. That's what they'll say when they apply for grants, but they all know that useful practical applications for anything they find today are lifetimes in the future.

The PRIMARY motivation for nearly all research done by humans on this earth is simply the need, the desire, the wish to know, and the visceral pleasure obtained through the act of knowing/learning.

And that is why this desire to know translate all through human endeavours, even trivial ones that will have no practical benefit, why people WANT plausible self-consistent explanations for things in their fiction, why only a tiny minority is ever satisfied with explanations like "it just is, it's fiction, roll with it".

We humans are hard wired to want to know, we get pleasure from learning new things, we instinctively seek pattern and meaning in everything we encounter, even if it isn't there. And if we were not so, we would never have survived.

[Amphiox]

I suppose the out that you could use is to state that elves gather experiences in spurts, able to go for centuries not really doing anything. After one or two decades adventuring with humans, they may feel the need to step back from such an unbearably hectic lifestyle and just – oh, I don't know – work on baking the perfect cookie, perhaps.

But then you'll have to explain why in that fictional world, the pastry industry isn't completely dominated by elven conglomerates.

It doesn't matter *what* precisely you have the elves do with their extra time, the issue is that they *have* that extra time, and so long as they spend it doing something, anything, that something will end up having impacts that will reverberate throughout your world, if your world is an old one.

[Chronos]

Someone elsewhere on this board (over in the d20 section) came up with a great explanation for why D&D elves take so long to mature, but yet level up as quickly as anyone else.

In humans, sleep is a major part of learning: That's when we collate and file all the things we've learned during the day, and connect to all the other things we've learned. Trancing serves the same purpose in adult elves, so adult elves learn as readily as humans do. But while sleep is instinctive for humans, elves need to learn to trance. And they need to learn it without the benefit of sleep, which makes it extremely difficult to learn. Thus, elves typically live a century or more before they master it, and are prepared to learn other things.

[Keltest]

Someone elsewhere on this board (over in the d20 section) came up with a great explanation for why D&D elves take so long to mature, but yet level up as quickly as anyone else.

In humans, sleep is a major part of learning: That's when we collate and file all the things we've learned during the day, and connect to all the other things we've learned. Trancing serves the same purpose in adult elves, so adult elves learn as readily as humans do. But while sleep is instinctive for humans, elves need to learn to trance. And they need to learn it without the benefit of sleep, which makes it extremely difficult to learn. Thus, elves typically live a century or more before they master it, and are prepared to learn other things.

Magic aside, im skeptical that any race could evolve (or would be spontaneously generated) with such an important part of their biology NOT being instinctual. At its creation, the race would be so weak that it would be crushed instantly.

[Fnordius]

But then you'll have to explain why in that fictional world, the pastry industry isn't completely dominated by elven conglomerates.

It doesn't matter *what* precisely you have the elves do with their extra time, the issue is that they *have* that extra time, and so long as they spend it doing something, anything, that something will end up having impacts that will reverberate throughout your world, if your world is an old one.

Oh, that is easy: the perfect cookie cannot be mass produced. It is a work of art, and it would betray the spirit of that perfect pastry to sell it!

No, seriously, elves might not be all that interested in commerce, save as a sport: thus explaining the trade war—to the elves involved, their "perfect cookie" is economics. Or retaliation for pushy human traders trying to sell them shoddy goods that they didn't want and never asked for.

[Jay R]

All of this is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

1. [Legacy background] In many fantasy worlds, elves are immortal or nearly so.
2. [Rule mechanics] In D&D, people become more powerful over time.
3. [Observed fact] On average, elves are not, in fact, absurdly more powerful than humans.

These three facts cannot be reconciled without some sort of explanation, like "Elves mature more slowly". Unfortunately, the explanation cannot stand up to close inspection, since it isn't why these facts occurred, but mere retro-documentation, trying to explain the inconsistency away. The explanation only requires more explanation. The effort is doomed to fail because it isn't a carefully worked out world that grew out of its own natural laws; it's a pastiche of rules, legacy, and game history that weren't consistent in the first place.

In both modern and traditional works of fiction, the correct approach to such questions is not to ask them.


If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax.


If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream.

[karkus]

I sure as heck wasn't making macaroni portraits of my parents in high school. :smallconfused:

Sucks to be you. That was the highlight of my high school education. :smallbiggrin:

The Origin of PCs is one of the two (there are only two, right?) prequel OotS books; both of which I own and love. I highly recommend getting it, especially because of the prophecies that the Oracle made; it gives us some background information that is pretty important, in my opinion.

[NerdyKris]

Sucks to be you. That was the highlight of my high school education. :smallbiggrin:

The Origin of PCs is one of the two (there are only two, right?) prequel OotS books; both of which I own and love. I highly recommend getting it, especially because of the prophecies that the Oracle made; it gives us some background information that is pretty important, in my opinion.

The prophecy is one thing, but I think a more notable part of the prequel was:


Roy and Durkon's meeting and the foundation of their friendship is pretty major given his recent vampiric affliction.

And yes, there's only two books so far. He mentioned after the first that there would be two more, so three total. Also, Order of the Scribble was ruled out in a Kickstarter interview. Their story will be in the main strip.

[Seward]

Their blood is actually just half-pixie dust or something. If you poured it into a jar, you could drink it and it would like a spice drink.

In 1st edition D&D, elf blood was one of the ways to make a longevity potion. I think the other way was vampire ichor. Guess which component everybody reached for. It is a hell of a lot easier to mug a random elf.

[allenw]

Elves are magic. That's their thing. Magic is a perfectly appropriate explanation for their long lifespans.

There's a whole 'nother genre in which scientific explanations are more appropriate.

That's it! Elves are Tenctonese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenctonese)! The long ears are just a disguise to hide from the Kleezantsun.
V and V's mate, of course, are Binauums. And Darth V was overdosing on Jabroka.

[Amphiox]

Oh, that is easy: the perfect cookie cannot be mass produced. It is a work of art, and it would betray the spirit of that perfect pastry to sell it!

No, seriously, elves might not be all that interested in commerce, save as a sport: thus explaining the trade war—to the elves involved, their "perfect cookie" is economics. Or retaliation for pushy human traders trying to sell them shoddy goods that they didn't want and never asked for.

Works for a youngish world. But if the universe runs arbitrarily long, sooner or later there shall arise that one atypical elf who loves commerce and who will decide to market the 99.9999% perfect cookie, which can be mass produced, and the rest is history.

[Ghost Nappa]

Works for a youngish world. But if the universe runs arbitrarily long, sooner or later there shall arise that one atypical elf who loves commerce and who will decide to market the 99.9999% perfect cookie, which can be mass produced, and the rest is history.

Doesn't even have to make the cookie. Just has to get the rights to it. And thus the second legacy of Vaarsuvius' family was born.