What +1 is worth it in a gesalt?

[CyberThread]

If you had to go down the long list of templates/races

What would you say is worth the +1 level adjustment cost on a gesalt?

[Talya]

It largely depends what I'm building.

Certainly the usual things that are worth their level adjustments in a regular game are still worth it in gestalt, for example. For instance, on a melee focused build, a Goliath is often a good +1.

[Chronos]

Are we assuming that LA only takes up one side of a gestalt progression? In that case, almost anything, and you're probably best off filling one side entirely with as much LA as you can get away with. Or are we assuming that it takes up both sides? In that case, LA is even worse than it is with normal characters, since you're missing out on more.

[Jack_Simth]

Are we assuming that LA only takes up one side of a gestalt progression? In that case, almost anything, and you're probably best off filling one side entirely with as much LA as you can get away with.
No, no, no.... You make one side a full caster (+ PrC's), and put the other side with passive stuff from the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread that matches your caster class. Once you've maximized your X to saves and X to AC, making sure to get Evasion and Mettle along the way, THEN you fill the rest with LA.

Or are we assuming that it takes up both sides? In that case, LA is even worse than it is with normal characters, since you're missing out on more.
Agreed.

[ksbsnowowl]

There is a third way to do LA in gestalt. It is split among both sides.

Take a Hound Archon: 6 HD, +5 LA.

One "side" gets 2 LA, and the other "side" gets 3 LA. The RHD would probably occur on the 2 LA side, so as to have the RHD occur "first," before any class levels start.

What is best really does depend upon how one's DM handles LA in gestalt.

[Draz74]

No, no, no.... You make one side a full caster (+ PrC's), and put the other side with passive stuff from the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread that matches your caster class. Once you've maximized your X to saves and X to AC, making sure to get Evasion and Mettle along the way, THEN you fill the rest with LA.

Note that, back in the day of the Gestalt Build Challenges, Chronos was known for his builds that used lots of LA on one side to get full casting on the other side, via races with innate spellcasting progressions. (In decreasing order of usefulness: Couatl, Rakshasa, Lillend, Nymph.)

If LA only counts on one side and your Gestalt build is starting at Level 10+, then

Outsider HD 9 / Sorcerer 1 // LA +7 / 3 dips

is pretty hard to beat. 9 levels of all-good saves, d8 Hit Dice, good BAB, and 8+Int skill points. With spellcasting as a Sorcerer 10, except your spells known can also come from the Cleric, Good, Law, and Air lists.


There is a third way to do LA in gestalt. It is split among both sides.

Take a Hound Archon: 6 HD, +5 LA.

One "side" gets 2 LA, and the other "side" gets 3 LA. The RHD would probably occur on the 2 LA side, so as to have the RHD occur "first," before any class levels start.

What is best really does depend upon how one's DM handles LA in gestalt.

I actually think this is (by far) the most balanced way to handle LA in Gestalt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If the level adjustment takes up an entire character level, then it's only worth having if you can buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), in which case just about any +1 LA would be worth getting since you should catch back up to the rest of the party in only a few levels.

Generally only Tier 2 and higher templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044) are worth having, though some lower tier templates are still useful on the right character. It entirely depends on what your character is going to be.


On the subject of racial spellcasting, a Tauric Human + Lammasu is 8 HD, only counts the +3 LA from Tauric, casts as a Cleric 7 with only spells from two of the listed domains, along with Pounce, Magic Circle, flight, and spell-like abilities. Also keep in mind that racial spellcasting doesn't fall on any particular level/HD unless it says 'casting equal to HD' or similar, so for example the above as an 8th level character could go Magical Beast 8// LA +3/ Cleric 5 and cast as a Cleric 12. The racial spellcasting is gained via being a member of the race, which is added to the character before any levels/HD are gained.

[ksbsnowowl]

I actually think this is (by far) the most balanced way to handle LA in Gestalt.

Agreed. That's why I treat LA that way in my gestalt game.

[Jack_Simth]

Note that, back in the day of the Gestalt Build Challenges, Chronos was known for his builds that used lots of LA on one side to get full casting on the other side, via races with innate spellcasting progressions. (In decreasing order of usefulness: Couatl, Rakshasa, Lillend, Nymph.)

If LA only counts on one side and your Gestalt build is starting at Level 10+, then

Outsider HD 9 / Sorcerer 1 // LA +7 / 3 dips

is pretty hard to beat. 9 levels of all-good saves, d8 Hit Dice, good BAB, and 8+Int skill points. With spellcasting as a Sorcerer 10, except your spells known can also come from the Cleric, Good, Law, and Air lists.
He's folding his LA and RHD? Yeah, that makes some odd things happen. Also, don't overlook the Gloura (Underdark, but also given out by wizards as An Excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)). Bardic casting (so you want to drop an actual level of bard in there for Bardic Music, then go Sublime Chord for the actual casting), but only ECL 9 (7 fey RHD, +2 LA), and Charisma to saves & AC like a nymph.

[Chronos]

He's folding his LA and RHD? Yeah, that makes some odd things happen.
Putting them in series also makes odd things happen, depending on the build. Basically, if your RHD are of a good type (outsider, dragon, maybe giant or magical beast if you're a bruiser, maybe fey if you're a skillmonkey), then it's better to have the LA and RHD on different sides, but if they're of a bad type (pretty much anything else), it's better to have them on the same side. Your DM can rule that it has to be one way or the other, but either way, there are going to be some options that are probably better than intended. LA is hard to incorporate well into gestalt.

Oh, and if you can get your RHD and LA on different sides, then probably the best option (even better than couatl et al.) is the sylph, from Monster Manual 2. Not only does their spellcasting explicitly scale with hit dice, but it's actually higher than their hit dice.

[Jack_Simth]

Putting them in series also makes odd things happen, depending on the build. Basically, if your RHD are of a good type (outsider, dragon, maybe giant or magical beast if you're a bruiser, maybe fey if you're a skillmonkey), then it's better to have the LA and RHD on different sides, but if they're of a bad type (pretty much anything else), it's better to have them on the same side. Your DM can rule that it has to be one way or the other, but either way, there are going to be some options that are probably better than intended. LA is hard to incorporate well into gestalt.

Oh, and if you can get your RHD and LA on different sides, then probably the best option (even better than couatl et al.) is the sylph, from Monster Manual 2. Not only does their spellcasting explicitly scale with hit dice, but it's actually higher than their hit dice.
Check out the Phaerimm sometime; similar mechanic, although it's just equal to their hit dice... which stacks with any sorcerer levels (which is really odd...) but the kicker is that they are all cast as spell-like abilities without any of the normal caveats that come with most theoretically player-accessible methods of getting spell-like abilities.