[PF] Blaster Sorcerer vs Alchemist

[Suddo]

So I was wondering if you wanted to play a "blaster" type person (first and foremost) is it better to play a Sorcerer or an Alchemist. Both at high end optimization vs low end. Also can the ability for the Sorcerer to pick up other spells be worth it to be a Sorcerer?

I've heard people argue both sides, but I haven't had enough experience to know which is better.

[Craft (Cheese)]

On pure DPS terms:

At level 8, an Alchemist gets the Fast Bombs ability which lets them basically full attack with their bombs. Throw 2 bombs for 8d6 + twice your INT modifier in splash damage. There's also lots of nice discoveries for adding riders onto your bombs (I especially like Stink Bombs). If you have 20 INT then you're doing an average of 38 damage with this, and you can fire off 13 bombs per day. I'm not exactly an expert on bomb-focused alchemists but I don't know of any ways to increase the damage output you can do with this.

A level 8 Sorcerer with Spell Specialization (Fireball) + Orc Bloodline + Empower Spell + Magical Lineage (Fireball) = At level 8, with a 4th-level spell slot you can cast an Empowered Fireball doing 15d6+15 damage, or 67.5 average damage. That's nearly 80% more. If you go crossblooded (I wouldn't recommend it) you can up this to 82.5 average damage, or a nearly 220% increase. If you invest in crafting you can get a Lesser Quicken Rod at this level (though it won't be cheap) to fire off a Quicken Intensified Fireball doing 11d6+11 (+22 w/Crossblooded), for 49.5 average damage. All this affecting multiple targets (bomb splash damage is *piddly*) from a much longer range. The only downside is you have Evasion to worry about.



In non-damage terms, it's just no contest. Alchemist extracts and discoveries are awesome, but the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is superior in just about every way. The only strength an alchemist has here is in terms of action economy if you want to be a buffer too: Alchemists can brew reagents and hand them out to the party so they use their own actions to give themselves buffs, rather than you having to spend your actions for each of them. This means you can much more easily give a custom-tailored buff to each party member and not have to resort to boring, generic tactics like Haste Every Fight. For debuffing and B/C, those riders you can put on your bombs are great but they're a sad imitation of Sorc/Wiz spells.

Now don't get me wrong, the Alchemist is a great class and I like it a lot, but overall the Sorcerer is just plain better for your purposes.

[Psyren]

The Alchemist's only real advantage is that bombs ignore SR/immunity. In most fights the spells will be better.

In very basic terms you need 2 bombs (d6/2 levels) just to equal one spell (d6/level) and damage spells tend to be capable of wider areas of effect.

EDIT: Bombs do have another advantage in that they can be more indiscriminately tossed near allies thanks to Precise Bombs.

[Suddo]

If you have 20 INT then you're doing an average of 38 damage with this, and you can fire off 13 bombs per day.

So you basically have 6 rounds of 2 bombs a day vs 5 fireballs. Though I guess that is without taking into account 4th and 2nd level spells (or bloodline spells). Alchs also get to bomb and debuff at the same time.

Obviously at high levels (+15?) Sorcerers will blow the Alch out of the water but around 8 - 12 level I wonder which will be more useful with minimal optimization.

[Craft (Cheese)]

It depends on what you mean by "minimal optimization." If you mean just slapping a blast spell onto a Sorcerer that was built to do something completely different (like say a Fey bloodline enchantment-based build) then yeah, alchemists can compete against them just fine. Then again, even such a sorcerer is much better off than an Alchemist that doesn't invest anything into its bomb-throwing capability (like say an Alchemist that devotes to being a mutagen gish).

[Suddo]

It depends on what you mean by "minimal optimization." If you mean just slapping a blast spell onto a Sorcerer that was built to do something completely different (like say a Fey bloodline enchantment-based build) then yeah, alchemists can compete against them just fine. Then again, even such a sorcerer is much better off than an Alchemist that doesn't invest anything into its bomb-throwing capability (like say an Alchemist that devotes to being a mutagen gish).

Nah. Basically no dual-bloodlines, that half-elf spell, and/or obscure splatbooks. Beyond that I think everything is on the table. Human with Orc Bloodline taking spell specialization sounds well within optimization.

I'm having this discussion because I have a friend who thinks bombs are way too good and I immediately thought that a Sorc does what they try to do but better. Alch obviously get a several cool things (action economy to do other things and better skills) but bombs aren't an issue.

[Psyren]

I was about to correct you on your misuse of the term "DPR" but I see you edited it out. (Potential bombs/spells per day don't really affect DPR.)

The sorcerer can still keep up total-damage wise by using his 2nd-level slots to deliver things like Scorching Rays and Intensified Shocking Grasps. So even when the third-level spells run out he's still doing 8d6 at 8th level out of lower-than-max slots. Compare once again to the Alchemist who is only doing 8d6 at 8th if both bombs hit and will run through his complement pretty quickly.

[Suddo]

I was about to correct you on your misuse of the term "DPR" but I see you edited it out. (Potential bombs/spells per day don't really affect DPR.)

The sorcerer can still keep up total-damage wise by using his 2nd-level slots to deliver things like Scorching Rays and Intensified Shocking Grasps. So even when the third-level spells run out he's still doing 8d6 at 8th level out of lower-than-max slots. Compare once again to the Alchemist who is only doing 8d6 at 8th if both bombs hit and will run through his complement pretty quickly.

Yeah I totally spaced when I looked at the spells per day that Sorcs have 4th level spells (Fireball only being 3rd).

Edit: And I meant as in through out a day the Alch will out DPR the Sorc until he runs out of bombs.

[Eldaran]

The advantage bombs have is that you can apply a lot of nasty status effects, like staggered, blind, or nauseated via bombs in addition to the damage. The save on these scales with level, so it's always pretty high. And if you're using fast bombs that's multiple saves per round your enemies have to make, practically guaranteeing they suffer the effects.

While bombs will not likely out damage a spell, and the area damage is certainly lacking, there's two sources of damage others have missed. Half-Orcs (and I think some other obscure races) can get .5 bonus bomb damage per level, so at level 8 that would be 4 more damage per bomb. Also, the Targeted Bomb Admixture extract doubles your int bonus to damage, but removes the splash damage from the bomb, making it good for damage but bad for status effects.

So with haste at level 8 you could throw 3 bombs for 4d6+14 damage each (assuming 20 int) or an average total damage of 84. Still, you'll run out of bombs so fast this is almost never worth it, unless you know you're only having one encounter that day.

[Psyren]

Edit: And I meant as in through out a day the Alch will out DPR the Sorc until he runs out of bombs.

Not really - no matter how many he gets per day he can only throw two per round, for 8d6, same as the Sorc. Sure he adds his Int, but the Sorcerer doesn't have reduced damage on a splash, 3x3 areas, -5 to hit on the second one and other drawbacks. The sorcerer can absolutely out-DPR them in terms of total damage, even without metamagic.

@ Eldaran if you start adding in racial benefits then the sorcerer gets to use them too, e.g. Orc bloodline + Half-Orc FC bonus.

[schoklat]

If you want to blast over everything else, nothing beats a Words of Power Sorcerer.
(Plus WoP are great for in-combat action economy, if you want to help your allies with some buffs occasionally. Yes, the WoP effect list is significantly reduced compared to the regular S/W list, but you can only learn so many as Sorc anyway...)

[Suddo]

Not really - no matter how many he gets per day he can only throw two per round, for 8d6, same as the Sorc. Sure he adds his Int, but the Sorcerer doesn't have reduced damage on a splash, 3x3 areas, -5 to hit on the second one and other drawbacks. The sorcerer can absolutely out-DPR them in terms of total damage, even without metamagic.

Ah once again my laziness gets me. I was assuming that much damage per bomb.

[CombatOwl]

So I was wondering if you wanted to play a "blaster" type person (first and foremost) is it better to play a Sorcerer or an Alchemist. Both at high end optimization vs low end. Also can the ability for the Sorcerer to pick up other spells be worth it to be a Sorcerer?

I've heard people argue both sides, but I haven't had enough experience to know which is better.

I'm confused as to why folks are assuming you're stuck with two bombs with fast bombs. Level 20 alchemist can easily get 3 bombs from BAB + 3 more from two weapon fighting + 1 from haste = 7 attacks.

So, that's 70d6+(Int X 7) at level 20. Sorcerers aren't even doing anything close to that because there is no split ray in PF.

[Serafina]

Words of Power is GREAT for blasting, especially on a Sorcerer, since you can freely chose your blast shapes.
That removes one of the main weaknesses of blasting (potentially hitting allies) right there.
The other great weakness (being limited to a specific element, especially for Sorcerers) is ALSO removed by combining multiple damage-dealing words and mixing elements.

And most Blaster-Words also contain a debuff, or you can combine other words with them to inflict pretty much any status effect of your choice.

Oh, and you can get normal spells just fine as well via Pages of Spell Knowledge. Since each page contains a specific spell, and WoP-users CAN use normal spells (they just can't take them as part of their normal spell selection), it works just like Bloodline-spells.

[Psyren]

I'm confused as to why folks are assuming you're stuck with two bombs with fast bombs.

The OP said level 8. You'll get a third from Haste though I'll admit.

But at level 20 the Sorcerer is binding things to blast for him and is still pumping out more d6 per round.

[Eldaran]

@ Eldaran if you start adding in racial benefits then the sorcerer gets to use them too, e.g. Orc bloodline + Half-Orc FC bonus.

True, though any flat damage bonus benefits Alchs more due to multiple hits, but either way they shouldn't really be trying to straight up outblast a Sorc.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I'm confused as to why folks are assuming you're stuck with two bombs with fast bombs. Level 20 alchemist can easily get 3 bombs from BAB + 3 more from two weapon fighting + 1 from haste = 7 attacks.

3? Definitely. 1 more from haste? I actually forgot about that before but yes, that should totally work. I'm not sure if TWF applies to thrown weapons though; Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there's a FAQ entry somewhere that forbids it (like how charging while on a mount apparently doesn't work).

[Suddo]

I'm confused as to why folks are assuming you're stuck with two bombs with fast bombs. Level 20 alchemist can easily get 3 bombs from BAB + 3 more from two weapon fighting + 1 from haste = 7 attacks.

So, that's 70d6+(Int X 7) at level 20. Sorcerers aren't even doing anything close to that because there is no split ray in PF.

Although at first I didn't say any level particularly I like to look at the mid levels as Sorcs get crazier spells at the high end that damage just doesn't compare to. Plus Time Stop kind of breaks what the Sorc can do in 1 round.

Besides you can still do about that much damage as a Sorc with a high level spell plus a quickened intensified low level spell.

A note on bombs and two-weapon fighting: Yes you can (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n8l)

Edit: And the Alch can nova 3 times then he is done. The Sorc has far more ability to produce damage.

[andreww]

I'm confused as to why folks are assuming you're stuck with two bombs with fast bombs. Level 20 alchemist can easily get 3 bombs from BAB + 3 more from two weapon fighting + 1 from haste = 7 attacks.

So, that's 70d6+(Int X 7) at level 20. Sorcerers aren't even doing anything close to that because there is no split ray in PF.
At level 20 the even mildly optimised blasting sorcerer is easily able to do 50d6+100 with two level 6 spell slots, of which he probably has over 30 per day of 6-9. And he does this from 800' away. All it takes is:

Crossblooded (Orc/Blue Dragon)
Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Magical Lineage Trait
Spell Perfection (Chain Lightning)

Empowered Chain Lightning followed by Quickened Chain Lightning each round for 15 rounds. Probably hitting every target available. If you want to bump things up a bit then add in Spell Specialisation, an Orange Ioun Stone and Intensified Spells and it becomes 57d6+114.

Grab a Rod of Empower to use on the quickened spell for an extra 10d6+20. If you want to apply status conditions then grab Dazing spell. Your damage will be lower but it wont matter as the enemy wont be taking any actions for the next 6 rounds.

With spell perfection and an otherworldly kimono you are rolling +37 for SR so beating pretty much everything on a 1. You can expect your DC's be around 34-40 which, given reflex saves tend to such, is pretty much an auto fail for most opponents. Have a look through some of those >20 CR opponents.

21 - Elysian Titan: Ref +15, SR32
21 - Harbinger Daemon: Ref +19, SR32
21 - Mu Spore: Ref +11
22 - Red Dragon Ravener: Ref +14
23 - Solar: Ref +14, SR34
24 - Fafhneir: Ref 25, SR35

Now some of these are resistant or immune which is why grabbing Elemental Spell (some other element) or a Rod is generally required for a non wizard blaster but that is an issue the alchemist has to deal with as well.

[schoklat]

Empowered Chain Lightning followed by Quickened Chain Lightning each round for 15 rounds. Probably hitting every target available. If you want to bump things up a bit then add in Spell Specialisation, an Orange Ioun Stone and Intensified Spells and it becomes 57d6+114.

A Mage's Tattoo is worth another 3d6+6. :smallsmile:
And Ioun Stones are untyped, so they should stack as long as you can dump wealth into them.

Edit: How can you apply IS to the Quickened CL? 6th +4q -1tr = 9th... Or are you burning through rods for each?


With spell perfection and an otherworldly kimono you are rolling +37 for SR so beating pretty much everything on a 1. You can expect your DC's be around 34-40 which, given reflex saves tend to such, is pretty much an auto fail for most opponents. Have a look through some of those >20 CR opponents.

Can you break down that DC 40 for me?
I must miss something how you get there.

[andreww]

A Mage's Tattoo is worth another 3d6+6. :smallsmile:
And Ioun Stones are untyped, so they should stack as long as you can dump wealth into them.

Edit: How can you apply IS to the Quickened CL? 6th +4q -1tr = 9th... Or are you burning through rods for each?
I only applied Intensified to the non quickened spell as it was the only one which had spare spell levels to fit it in. Adding more caster levels wont help as the spell will cap out at a base 25d6 damage with Intensified.




Can you break down that DC 40 for me?
I must miss something how you get there.
I may have overegged this one slightly...:) Still you are easily looking at:

10 base
15 casting stat (20 at level 1, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 levels, +2 succubus profane bonus, +2 age)
6 spell level
2 greater spell focus
2 doubling of greater spell focus from spell perfection

So 35 DC which is still beating almost everything going. You also have space to add Persistent Spell to the Empowered Chain Lightning to force 2 saves.

If you want to increase DC's rather than Damage then I would go down the pure Arcane Bloodline route to add another 3DC, 2 from School Power at level 15 and 1 from the Arcana. If you had the feats you could actually grab School Power via Greater Eldritch Heritage but I doubt you can afford them given you also want 3 metamagics, spell perfection, greater spell focus and probably improved initiative and greater spell penetration.

[schoklat]

I only applied Intensified to the non quickened spell as it was the only one which had spare spell levels to fit it in. Adding more caster levels wont help as the spell will cap out at a base 25d6 damage with Intensified.

Aren't you only at 20 CL (base) + 1 (Stone) + 2 (Specialisation) = 23 CL. That would leave another 2 CL to add to the limit of Intensified.




I may have overegged this one slightly...:) Still you are easily looking at:

10 base
15 casting stat (20 at level 1, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 levels, +2 succubus profane bonus, +2 age)
6 spell level
2 greater spell focus
2 doubling of greater spell focus from spell perfection

So 35 DC which is still beating almost everything going. You also have space to add Persistent Spell to the Empowered Chain Lightning to force 2 saves.

Cheers, I got to 34 DC no problem. A bound Succubus for 35 and we're at the same level.
Arcane Bloodline always is a great options... It's just deciding what you want, and what you are willing to sacrifice. I personally still prefer WoP Sorc instead of eating up all my feats, if I want to get heavily into blasting, but YMMV.

[andreww]

Aren't you only at 20 CL (base) + 1 (Stone) + 2 (Specialisation) = 23 CL. That would leave another 2 CL to add to the limit of Intensified.
Spell Specialisation should get doubled by Spell Perfection.

[schoklat]

Spell Specialisation should get doubled by Spell Perfection.

Darn, yer right! :smallredface:

[Bigbeefie]

Going to be honest a admixture evocation wizard with meta magics and spell perfection will net you more then both alchemists and sorcerer. It also allows you a way to change elements based on enemies resistances and immunities. A sorcerer also has the down fall of using any meta magics other then quicken that they must cast as a full round. Even if using from a metamagic rod. A wizard can still cat as a standard action. Your spell list is better all around and you need very little powergaming to get solid results. There is even a guide for blockbuster wizards (blasters) on the pazio forums. Not to mention the knowledge skills that come from a wizard are boss.

[andreww]

Going to be honest a admixture evocation wizard with meta magics and spell perfection will net you more then both alchemists and sorcerer. It also allows you a way to change elements based on enemies resistances and immunities. A sorcerer also has the down fall of using any meta magics other then quicken that they must cast as a full round. Even if using from a metamagic rod. A wizard can still cat as a standard action. Your spell list is better all around and you need very little powergaming to get solid results. There is even a guide for blockbuster wizards (blasters) on the pazio forums. Not to mention the knowledge skills that come from a wizard are boss.
If you go down the damage route then the Admixture Wizard will give you slightly better damage from the class ability. If you want the higher DC's and Dazing then you are better off with the straight arcane sorcerer for the arcana and the school power.

[Bigbeefie]

If you go down the damage route then the Admixture Wizard will give you slightly better damage from the class ability. If you want the higher DC's and Dazing then you are better off with the straight arcane sorcerer for the arcana and the school power.

1 if your blasting your wanting damage your job is a hammer.
2 Dazing spell helps a blaster with battle field control only so its optional.
3 your targeting reflex so Dc is important but not as much so because late game it is the weakest save on most encounters. Usally a 25 does it.