Vamp PC and invitation rules

[MonkeySage]

Rachel is the party cleric and she happens to be a vampire. The party is about to barge into the villain's lair, a dragon's castle(he's been posing as a duke and does rightfully own the castle, it is his legal residence). As they approach the entrance(whichever they've chosen), fairness aside, should Rachel be able to enter the dragon's castle, considering she has not been invited?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It depends. Normally a castle is somewhat accessible to the public (servants, guards, etc.). If that is the case here i'd allow a vampire to enter.
If the castle is more of an isolated stronghold where nobody gets in beside the duke and his closest allies i'd say no.
In the second case charming/dominating a guard and having him invite you in would work (since he is technically a resident).

[PurpleSocks]

RAW, no she can't. This is one of the many reasons why PC's shouldn't be allowed to become vampires unless the campaign is built for it (along with not being able to cross running water, issues with daylight & being totally screwed over by cloves of garlic & holy symbols costing a few cp's)

If however the Dragon/Duke lets petitioners in to discuss taxes/whatever then you could argue that the keep is a public place, and she can enter.

[Phelix-Mu]

Many "castles" actually constitute more than one building, residence, and entrance. Many castles also include inner courtyards that are more-or-less outdoors locations. So, I'd say that this really depends on the precise makeup of the castle. Part of the castle is likely to not be a private residence (the courtyard, the throne room, the guard position just outside the front gate).

But dominate is your friend. Along with some planning and forethought, a clever vampire can pretty much get around this restriction in most cases.

Otherwise, though, I agree that vampires are not suitable for the typical murderhobo adventurer activities. They typically need more subtle measures and manipulation to get around the restrictions on daytime movement and entering residences.

Consider making an option available to the character that would bypass the restriction. As some kind of official or priestess, she may get dispensation to enter the homes of certain people, or otherwise some kind of "free movement" within the kingdom or whatever. DM handwave this to bypass the restriction. Not necessary, of course, but might help expedite things.

[TuggyNE]

Rachel is the party cleric and she happens to be a vampire. The party is about to barge into the villain's lair, a dragon's castle(he's been posing as a duke and does rightfully own the castle, it is his legal residence). As they approach the entrance(whichever they've chosen), fairness aside, should Rachel be able to enter the dragon's castle, considering she has not been invited?

Not even slightly. Castles are basically the epitome of "you can't come in unless I want you", so combined with vampire restrictions that's a very solid bar. Without some invitation shenanigans there's no way that's happening.

[MonkeySage]

Now, right now I'm only bouncing ideas around for a scenario; I'd briefly had the idea that the dragon is the duke, but I find it would be difficult to justify the dragon raiding nearby towns in that scenario. So I ditched the idea in favor of the usual story that he lives in a cavern.

I wish to keep the framework simple, since this is a short termed campaign(hence the fact that I'm letting one of my players be a vampire-she's actually the most normal character in the bunch.)

I'm wondering however, if the cavern is still considered the dragon's property, would she still need an invite? What do you guys think?

Also, I've handled the sunlight issue.

[Crake]

Now, right now I'm only bouncing ideas around for a scenario; I'd briefly had the idea that the dragon is the duke, but I find it would be difficult to justify the dragon raiding nearby towns in that scenario. So I ditched the idea in favor of the usual story that he lives in a cavern.

I wish to keep the framework simple, since this is a short termed campaign(hence the fact that I'm letting one of my players be a vampire-she's actually the most normal character in the bunch.)

I'm wondering however, if the cavern is still considered the dragon's property, would she still need an invite? What do you guys think?

Also, I've handled the sunlight issue.

It says that vampires are "Unable to enter a home or other building". This implies that the restriction only applies to buildings, and not simply "dwellings". A cavern may be owned by someone, or someone may live in one, but it is not considered a home or building, unless it has been at least decently cultivated (walled up with a door at the entrance as a minimum IMO).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

It depends on if you want it to be the Dragon's Home. Meaning prime residence or something of that sort.

But since the Dragon cannot likely Own it legally I say she can enter.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're the DM? Then you might want to steal a page from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Inability to enter homes without an invitation was a big roadblock for vampires throughout the series and its spin-off, Angel. Certain characters went to great lengths to trick someone into inviting them inside.

On the show, however, the rule only applied to human homes. The lairs of demons and other monsters could be entered by anyone. Also, a home could be entered if the rightful owners were dead.

Adapting that to D&D, I'd say the invitation rule should probably only apply to Humanoid and Monstrous Humanoid creatures, and probably Giants, Fey, and Outsiders. Possibly intelligent Undead and/or Constructs as well, but it makes just as much sense to allow passage as to deny it, depending on whether you want vampires to need an invitation to enter the lair of another vampire or not.

[awa]

a common negation is if the home is also a place of business it negates the protection. Since a castle is more a small town (or possible a large one) then a single residence i would not find it improbable if the protection only applied to peoples rooms.

edit your the dm so in the end the correct answer is whatever will improve the game. if this complication will make the game better then no she cant enter with out doing something clever. if it will detract from what you have planned then yes she can just go in.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wait.

The dragon can't "own" the cave they live in? By what standard of ownership are we going by? Does the dragon need a title or deed? I'd probably give the dragon the benefit of the doubt, here. It is a dragon.

Who is the dragon supposed to purchase the cave from anyway?

I'd also argue that, as established in numerous places among the splatbooks, dragons do significantly alter their lairs with traps, false entrances, magical wards, escape routes, and other conveniences.

This seems like rather more of a pickle for the vampire to be in. If it were me, I'd establish that actual ownership of the mountain/cavern was in dispute (it used to belong to a mining company or to a noble or some such), and the dragon is essentially a squatter that is contesting ownership by force. If the vampire lady gets permission from the actual owner (once you've establish that this cave is "owned"), then she won't need the dragon's permission (which is good, cause that's extremely hard to come by).

[BWR]

But since the Dragon cannot likely Own it legally I say she can enter.

Really? Why not?

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's two options to interpret ownership that i see. One is legal ownership, which is granted by the law of the land.
This usually means that non-humanoids can't own anything since to the law they are just monsters, so vampires can enter their homes/lairs at will.

The other would be ownership in the supernatural/magical sense, where someone (or something) is "the owner" if he has claimed the property in question (maybe for a certain period of time). So, the dragon has claimed that cave, made it his own and lived there for years or even decades. That makes the cave "his", no matter what any neighboring kingdoms, towns or tribes have to say on the matter, and vampires can't enter unless they receive his permission.

[BWR]

EDIT: This post ended up a ruder and more aggressive than I had intended. Sorry about that.


There's two options to interpret ownership that i see. One is legal ownership, which is granted by the law of the land.
This usually means that non-humanoids can't own anything since to the law they are just monsters, so vampires can enter their homes/lairs at will.

The other would be ownership in the supernatural/magical sense, where someone (or something) is "the owner" if he has claimed the property in question (maybe for a certain period of time). So, the dragon has claimed that cave, made it his own and lived there for years or even decades. That makes the cave "his", no matter what any neighboring kingdoms, towns or tribes have to say on the matter, and vampires can't enter unless they receive his permission.

Ever heard the phrase "possession is 9/10 of the law"? Ignore supernatural/magical, call it natural law (yes I know it's not actually natural law, but it's as good a term as any for this, better than any other I could think of).
Why should a dragon acknowledge the laws of lesser beings whose kingdom didn't even exist when he laid claim to his lair? A bunch of people moving in then saying to the beings already there "ok, we've set up a bunch of laws that your stuff is now ours. You must follow the LAW!!!" ...I don't think that would convince many beings, even the most legalistic lawyer of the country.
Regarding vampires, why are they bound by the laws of locals. Say a vampire visits a place where all buildings are legally owned by the king, and the king grants invites the vampire to enter any building he likes: should that suffice to bypass the invitation weakness? Even if he tries to enter a home that has belonged to a certain family for generations and has ever been inhabited and considered to belong to them?
What if said vampire is invited in by the inhabitants of this house but not the king?
Or if this vampire wants to enter a rented apartment: is it the invitation of the resident or the owner that counts?
Or if the king is ousted by another king who sets up new laws after the vampire was invited by the first?

The only sensible way to treat vampires is if we think of possession, not legalalities.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The first question to ask is WHY do vampires need an invitation. Going by myth its connected to a person's home being a sacred place. The invitation requirement wasn't always a vampire trope it was once applied to all manner of supernatural beings, demons, fairies, ghosts etc. Some times this has to be verbal at other times a welcome mat could serve as an open invitation.

At times an apartment building would serve as a barrier but in other works only the apartment it self. Some times the invitation once given was eternal and another its only temporary. The details of these rules van vary from fiction to fiction but quite often it only applies to human. Vampires don't need invitations to enter the homes of non-humans.

The rules of the game were written on the presumption of standard races and such. Just because a PC can be a vampire doesn't mean they wrote the rules with that in mind.

Now the standard vampire template can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids so you could restrict the laws of invite to only those races.

This being a castle... I have to ask... does it have a moat?