Alternate Wild Shape for the Druid

[Grizzled Gryphon]

I recall reading about an alternate class feature for the Druid where you lose wild shape and the animal companion, and you gain combat form at first level. I can't find it. Where is this located?

Also, is this a good option for the Druid? I don't think you can cast while in Combat Form (or whatever it is called), and I think it explicitly said that Natural Spell doesn't apply. Is there a way around that, or not?

[wayfare]

I recall reading about an alternate class feature for the Druid where you lose wild shape and the animal companion, and you gain combat form at first level. I can't find it. Where is this located?

Also, is this a good option for the Druid? I don't think you can cast while in Combat Form (or whatever it is called), and I think it explicitly said that Natural Spell doesn't apply. Is there a way around that, or not?

PHB2, i think.

If natural spell is not allowed, well...that sorta balanced. Natural Spell is way broken.

That said, I think the prime benefit of those forms are the stat benefits and Ex abilities you get. The stas are straight boosts to your own, so its kind of like "I am a barbarian, who can fly, and summon lightning"

[Gavinfoxx]

I recall reading about an alternate class feature for the Druid where you lose wild shape and the animal companion, and you gain combat form at first level. I can't find it. Where is this located?

Also, is this a good option for the Druid? I don't think you can cast while in Combat Form (or whatever it is called), and I think it explicitly said that Natural Spell doesn't apply. Is there a way around that, or not?

Basically, EVERY alternative class feature is a MAJOR NERF to druid. Because the base form is sooooo powerful.

But nerfing a druid is usually a good idea, since they are one of the most OP classes ever.

So beating Druid with the nerf stick by using as many of these as possible:

Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II) (What you were asking about)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

Is a viable way to lower the power of a Druid.

[Valwyn]

It's in PHB II, I think it's called Shapeshift.

You can't cast while shifted, but the shift itself is either a Swift or a Move action (can't remember), so you can shift and cast in the same round. A friend of mine likes to use reserve feats while shifted, which saves spell slots and lets you "cast" without Natural Spell.

[wayfare]

It's in PHB II, I think it's called Shapeshift.

You can't cast while shifted, but the shift itself is either a Swift or a Move action (can't remember), so you can shift and cast in the same round. A friend of mine likes to use reserve feats while shifted, which saves spell slots and lets you "cast" without Natural Spell.

Ooooh, thats fun. Imma have an NPC use that.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

It's in PHB II, I think it's called Shapeshift.

You can't cast while shifted, but the shift itself is either a Swift or a Move action (can't remember), so you can shift and cast in the same round. A friend of mine likes to use reserve feats while shifted, which saves spell slots and lets you "cast" without Natural Spell.

Holy good idea, Batman!! I like that! Thanks for the heads up on the location of that... I think there is another variant like this one, but way more limited, and I thought that was the one in PHBII.

[Gavinfoxx]

Holy good idea, Batman!! I like that!

Remember, it is a major weakening to normal Druid Wild Shape. It takes an action, and you can't cast while so shapechanged, unlike wild shape with Natural Spell. And with Wild Shape, you're generally shapechanged 24/7 after about level 7 or so, using tons of magic items and can talk because of other magic items anyway... so its not like it's saving you some time. The heights of awesomeness of wild shaping goes wayyyy higher than how useful Shapeshift is...

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Very true. I can see that wild shape is definitely more powerful, but this is more of a theme thing. as the Shapeshift has no duration, and no times per day, I can have a druid running around as a panther, wolf, elemental, or what have you pretty much the entire time. This will be a (possible) NPC that the party won't realize is a druid, they will just wonder why this wolf is following them around. Just an idea I am kicking around. I may just take the DM's prerogative, and say the druid can cast while shapeshifted anyway. Or to be somewhat RAW, I will rule that natural Spell works in this case.

Of course, another way to do this is have an Awakened Critter with levels of Druid...

[Valwyn]

Glad you like the idea. :smallsmile: Try the reserve feat that uses electric spells, I think it doesn't use an attack roll or allow a save (kinda broken if you ask me).

By the way, notice that you only get land and fly speeds with Shapeshift. You may want to homebrew/house rule a shape with a swim speed. Maybe simply allowing the predator and/or slayer shapes to also turn into sharks or something. Maybe also something with climb (monkey/gorilla?) and burrow speeds (dire badger?).

[eggynack]

Basically, EVERY alternative class feature is a MAJOR NERF to druid. Because the base form is sooooo powerful.

Well, the ones to major things are usually nerfs, but even then it's not an always thing. For example, look at something like iron constitution from the cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Those abilities are so much better than resist nature's lure that it's ridiculous. A couple of the ACF's there are pretty strong for a druid, even urban companion when you hit high levels. Some of the substitution levels are also quite strong, with shifter and half-orc being the best, and with fangshields being pretty decent, especially at the levels where you're not losing anything. Even druidic avenger is a good choice on an MoMF build, cause you're not advancing that stuff anyway. So, I would say that many druid ACF's, even ones that trade out something as strong as the animal companion (shifter is the big one for that), represent a buff to a druid, or at least a horizontal movement.

Shapeshifter is not that though. You lose both the animal companion and wild shape for an ability that's inferior to those in most conceivable ways. You're trading away an immense and powerful ability for something that is not that. It's less bookkeeping, certainly, and becoming less powerful is often a good thing for a druid, but it's not exactly my favorite option. As for the duration, wild shape was never exactly lacking in that department, lasting all day as early as level 8, and lasting effectively all day at 7.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

I take it there is some way to make the wild shape last long enough to be effectively permanent at level 7, then? How does it work? Do you have to use your daily uses (and thus, turn back into your normal form for a brief time), or can you effectively be the critter full time? I know that is pretty minor, but with the NPC idea I have, it might matter...

[eggynack]

I take it there is some way to make the wild shape last long enough to be effectively permanent at level 7, then? How does it work? Do you have to use your daily uses (and thus, turn back into your normal form for a brief time), or can you effectively be the critter full time? I know that is pretty minor, but with the NPC idea I have, it might matter...
You mostly just use three separate wild shapes, which cover 21 hours. You probably have to be a not-animal for a few seconds here and there, but it shouldn't really matter all that much. I mean, you could maybe go from one animal into the same animal, or otherwise just use fiat to say that you can use additional wild shapes to extend the duration. That's not exactly going to change the game significantly, and it's a smaller change than what you're doing with shapeshift. So, you can't really make wild shape permanent, but you can practically make it permanent, which is practically the same thing.

[Gavinfoxx]

I take it there is some way to make the wild shape last long enough to be effectively permanent at level 7, then? How does it work? Do you have to use your daily uses (and thus, turn back into your normal form for a brief time), or can you effectively be the critter full time? I know that is pretty minor, but with the NPC idea I have, it might matter...

3/day. .. 7 hours for a single use... an hour for prayer every day, maybe some sleep if you don't want to use magic to remove fatigue... that's 21 of every 24 hours in wild shape...

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Hmm, interesting. I haven't played a Druid yet, so I thought it was some sort of feat/spell/ACF trick to get it to last that long. LOL!

Still, for this NPC, I think I will go with the Shapeshift variant, as I want the party to think there is some critter following them and helping out. My guess is they will treat the NPC as a pet, so will be rather surprised that she is really a spy for the local Druid council.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hmm, interesting. I haven't played a Druid yet, so I thought it was some sort of feat/spell/ACF trick to get it to last that long. LOL!

Still, for this NPC, I think I will go with the Shapeshift variant, as I want the party to think there is some critter following them and helping out. My guess is they will treat the NPC as a pet, so will be rather surprised that she is really a spy for the local Druid council.

Make him level 8, and he can be an actual animal 24/7, rather than some weird "doesn't look like a normal animal" thing like shapeshift variant does (those don't look normal, it's mostly adding a few animal features).

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Make him level 8, and he can be an actual animal 24/7, rather than some weird "doesn't look like a normal animal" thing like shapeshift variant does (those don't look normal, it's mostly adding a few animal features).

According to the shapeshift I am thinking of, you can look like any creature from the terrain your used to. So, a panther if your from the jungle, a wolf if from forest, lion from the plains, and so on.

[Coidzor]

Shapeshift is less of taking the form of an animal and more a minor-to-moderate buff that takes a bit to bring to bear that turns off casting, or at least, that's the best way I've found to think of it.